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Srecko Sostar

Watchtower pays $4000 per day for disobeying Secular Authority

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1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

I would just say I have no control over the organization's legal policies and that I would always report to the police.

Good answer.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Surprisingly, a man did show up at my former kingdom hall asking about the child abuse to elders. They had to lock the doors after that.

Sounds suspiciously like an ex-member I'm afraid..

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

There is a rumor that Leah Remini may focus on Jehovah's Witnesses as a spinoff of her show on Scientology.

I heard about that, but I haven't heard about Dr. Phil. It's good to remember that these shows are there to attract an audience and to make money. I am not saying this because I don't believe there is a problem. You probably know by now that I have delved into this area quite extensively already.

There are two faces to the reporting on child abuse. The one we see mostly is the one presented to us by the media which as we know only has limited time and space to cover everything, and sensationalism is what sells. Then there are the facts. Facts are extremely hard to come by because often such information is not easily available. The best kind of facts regarding a particular case are those we can obtain through court transcripts some of which are thousands of pages long, but even then, there are some facts that are inadmissible in court.

Just as an example, here is an extract from a court transcript dealing with two proposed witnesses to testify against the WT. Note how the judge ascertains their value in this particular case (Victoria Boer vs WT 2003). Bare in mind that these two witnesses are two of the "go to" people used by ex-witnesses in cases against JW child sexual abuse, and what they say on their websites or books is considered to be accurate information regarding the policies of JWs:

<During the course of the trial, the plaintiff sought leave to present evidence from two witnesses about certain characteristics or practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in situations similar to this one. I ruled such evidence to be inadmissable, with reasons to follow.

[27] The first witness, Professor James Penton, is an historian and the author of a book entitled Apocalypse Delayed . Mr. Mark, on behalf of the plaintiff, intended to elicit evidence from Mr. Penton with respect to his conclusions about various characteristics of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the way women are treated within that faith and the functioning of Judicial Committees. Professor Penton’s evidence would be based on his research and would constitute opinion. He does not have first-hand evidence. However, Mr Mark did not deliver notice of his intention to call an expert on this topic and did not serve an expert report on the defense as required under the Evidence Act , R.S.O 1990, c E23. That alone is fatal to the plaintiff’s request to call this evidence. The defence would have been caught by surprise with no opportunity to prepare, nor to call its own evidence to rebut the evidence of Mr. Penton.

[28] In any event, I am by no means satisfied that expert evidence of this nature would have been admissable in respect of these matters. It seems to me that I am in a position to determine the relevant facts to the particular matters before me without the assistance of an expert on these matters.

[29] The second witness proposed by the plaintiff is Barbara Anderson, who was a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York from 1954 until her recent disfellowship (ejection from the faith). The plaintiff proposed to elicit evidence from Ms. Anderson as to her knowledge of how sexual abuse of children is dealt with within that religion and of cover-ups of abuse within that society. Most of Ms. Anderson’s proposed testimony would be hearsay. The plaintiff argued it would be admissable as similar fact evidence that the actions of the defendants in this case was part of a design, rather than negligence.

[30] The general test for the admissibility of similar fact evidence in a civil trial is derived from Mood Music Publishing Co. v DeWolf Ltd .; [1976] Ch 19, 1 ALL E.R. 763 (C.A.) In that case, Lord Denning stated, at page 127 (Ch)

…in civil cases the court will admit evidence of similar facts if it is logically probative, that is if it is logically relevant in determining the matter which is in issue; provided that it is not oppressive or unfair to the other side; and also that the other side has fair notice of it and is able to deal with it.

[31] The proposed evidence from Ms. Anderson fails this test on every front. First, it is not logically probative of any issue before me. Whatever may have been Ms. Anderson’s personal experience with the Jehovah’s Witness faith, and whatever information she may have gleaned about how child abuse cases were dealt with elsewhere, she has no evidence whatsoever about the Toronto or Shelburne congregations or any of the individuals in this case. Further, even her information about Watch Tower generally relates to that organization in the United States. There is nothing about her evidence that would assist in the very specific findings of fact I am required to make about what happened in the case before me.>

 

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1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Honestly, the organization needs to be 100% transparent right now about their child abuse policies, because we act as representatives for them when we go out

One thing we need to remember is to stay objective. Just because ex-witnesses whip up countless cases and horror stories does not mean the situation is as extreme as it sounds. I can afford to say this because I am a nobody. It doesn't matter if someone accuses me of cover ups  etc. I am not the Org. However the org. cannot said anything like this even if it is true.  Of course one abused child is one too many, and of course even one case should not be minimized. But I can afford to say that in my whole time as a JW, in many congregations in several countries I have not come across this problem, and believe me this problem does not stay hidden, Witnesses do talk and gossip and word gets around pretty quickly. Not only that, but I have seen elders and ex-elders who would have information admit they have not come across one case. Even one ex- member of the GB admitted that the problem is not extreme and that he himself was not personally aware of a single case. Evidently there have been and are cases. There is such a plethora of people from all kinds of social backgrounds and levels of spiritual maturity in the worldwide brotherhood that it makes it statistically impossible not to have cases of child sexual abuse, sad as it sounds. The other thing is acquiring facts about these cases. As I already mentioned above, these are extremely hard to come by, and without knowing facts, we cannot really make a fair judgement...

Apparently, there is a  handbook on child abuse guidelines which are made available to any publisher who asks for one. Has anyone done this? I haven't since I no longer have small children.

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4 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Ok, but what will it prove?

Whatever the courts say is proved. If crimes are committed, they will be uncovered. Where's your faith?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Apparently, there is a  handbook on child abuse guidelines which are made available to any publisher who asks for one. Has anyone done this?

Published on this forum wasn't it?

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5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

the organization needs to be 100% transparent right now about their child abuse policies

The same is also with Australian Royal Commission in 2015. No single word on JW broadcasting or publications. Because of the the fact that WT never mentioned nothing officially, for JW public - officially, for  members looks as nothing was happened at all. No pedophiles, no victims, no Court or Commissions investigations, decisions, out of Court settlements ...

JW members are trained to not believe nothing that come from secular source what have any connections about WT and JW Church. 

Cognitive dissonance is very strong and go to direction of full trust to WT leaders. Trust to men. Sad.

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

He does not have first-hand evidence.

Hi. I would like to make little digression. I spent hours and hours listening official video records from ARC in 2015. Here/There all viewer are been, and today also can be able, to hear and see (to hear and see, audio-visual is very important) "first-hand evidence" from all involved and called to present their testimony in front Commission and public as well.

Victims, elders, witnesses on this and that, GB member, all of them were in witness chair, and for us who followed program,  we been able to get impressions on what we saw and heard. Is my personal view after that, wrong or right, that is my problem. But words was been told and facts are here.

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9 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I can't imagine having to explain these policies to someone in the door-to-door ministry.

You say that it is fallout from doing what no one else has attempted to do: monitor wrongdoing (of all sorts, but here specifically child abuse) so as to accomplish two things, which actually collapse into one. 1.) discover abusers so as to administer discipline, up to and including disfellowshipping, so as so follow God's command to keep congregation as clean as possible, and 2.) keep track of any abusers, so that they cannot slip out of one congregation and into another - as they can anywhere else.

You acknowledge missteps have probably occurred. Nonetheless, instances of abuse would never be associated with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses were that organization like the general world of religion - which takes no interest in the conduct of its members and considers their conduct none of its business. 

Having said that, the brother who first proposed keeping track of such accused abusers has been assigned to permanent potato-peeling duty in the Bethel basement for upwards of 40 years now, and may be the inspiration for the book: "Forty Years a Watchtower Slave."

9 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

They had to lock the doors after that.

This is a common response to guard against crazies, not directed towards anyone in particular, to my knowledge. The disciples even locked their doors for a time. Jesus found a way to get around that, but anyone else would have had a hard time. Who knows - maybe even the Texas shooter in the Baptist church would have been dissuaded if he had had to first blast into the building from the outside.

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10 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

because we act as representatives for them when we go out.

Hi Noble! About "representatives" as word, expression, lexem in official WT terminology. 

Representative for Watch Tower, Jehovah Witnesses congregation or any other legal entity can be only person who have WT appointed, officially setting to be in position to represent WT or some other entity in/for one particular job, work or for some duty inside company.

All other members, all baptised members, male or female are JUST MEMBERS and NOTHING MORE. You as member of your congregation are not in position to represent either your own congregation. You  and your bro and sis in congregation  have not legality to be representatives for congregation or for WTBTS or any entity of WT. Because WT Company policy only few can be representative for them.

Make peace with the fact that you are just, only member, not representative.  :) 

P.S. if you like i can present you Court document where Legal Department said so before Court. So that must be the truth, i think ))))) 

 

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8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Whatever the courts say is proved. If crimes are committed, they will be uncovered. Where's your faith?

Not really. The organization admitting wrongdoing is unlikely. They're too proud to do that. No matter what the outcome, the organization will spin itself as a victim. The organization will never say it has committed a crime even if the courts rule against them. They will spin at as spiritual warfare. That's just the way it is.

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I spent hours and hours listening official video records from ARC in 2015. Here/There all viewer are been, and today also can be able, to hear and see (to hear and see, audio-visual is very important) "first-hand evidence" from all involved and called to present their testimony in front Commission and public as well.

I too watched the ARC hearing and read the transcripts.

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