Jump to content

Matthew9969

Dancing in Kingdom Halls to worldly music???

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Matthew9969 -
Matthew9969 -
19
1538

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

Now I'm not condemning these people for wanting to have some joy inside their house of worship, but a few things stand out...these congregations would have been strongly reproved, if not even some disfellowshipped 10-15 20 years ago. This kind of joy definitely would have made my childhood much more easier to endure. But not just that...at my church, worship is done with christian centered music, by christian artist praising God and Jesus. These video's the brothers and sisters are singing and dancing and plagiarizing worldly music, and dances that have been popular in bars and worldly plays. I'm glad to see brothers and sisters finally being allowed to laugh, dance, have fun while congregating in a kingdom hall, still have some doctrines that are wrong, but they are catching on with what is in the bible about worshiping and praising God with musical instruments and dancing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, matthew9969, do you even know why this is going on? I was around those 15,20 years ago. We did not dance in the halls. UNLESS, there was a celebration there, a function other than a spiritual meeting. So I ask again do you know why we went crazy in our different hall in certain cities, at that time? If not please try not to hate. The principles have not changed. We put on plays and had certain skits for ones during there weddings and anniversaries. To have clean fun and used WORLDLY MUSIC, as you put. We are not the Amish, or did Jesus send us to the outskirts of the cities to live. We also do not only live among ourselves. We love still among this world. But we must live cleanly midst it. Sorry that you found your live drab and dreary. But I went through '75 and the Franz disfellowshipping and the other shake ups in congregational matters. But I put myself through college, my father taught us the truth per scripture, we did not sell everything we continued to wait on Jehovah and follow the leaders that took the reins of leadership. If they are taking us down the wrong knowingly, like Eli allowed his sons to do whatever they wanted, Jehovah and Christ will clean things up, Samuel did not cry and wanted to go back home to mommie. He stayed because he knew whose organization this was, I was taught the very same thing. I taught my children the very same thing!

So, I ask again, do you know WHY these things were happening? Not just in the videos you have posted, but in many more in this country and around the world. I await your response. Have a nice day!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, John Houston said:

Hey, matthew9969, do you even know why this is going on? I was around those 15,20 years ago. We did not dance in the halls. UNLESS, there was a celebration there, a function other than a spiritual meeting. So I ask again do you know why we went crazy in our different hall in certain cities, at that time? If not please try not to hate. The principles have not changed. We put on plays and had certain skits for ones during there weddings and anniversaries. To have clean fun and used WORLDLY MUSIC, as you put. We are not the Amish, or did Jesus send us to the outskirts of the cities to live. We also do not only live among ourselves. We love still among this world. But we must live cleanly midst it. Sorry that you found your live drab and dreary. But I went through '75 and the Franz disfellowshipping and the other shake ups in congregational matters. But I put myself through college, my father taught us the truth per scripture, we did not sell everything we continued to wait on Jehovah and follow the leaders that took the reins of leadership. If they are taking us down the wrong knowingly, like Eli allowed his sons to do whatever they wanted, Jehovah and Christ will clean things up, Samuel did not cry and wanted to go back home to mommie. He stayed because he knew whose organization this was, I was taught the very same thing. I taught my children the very same thing!

So, I ask again, do you know WHY these things were happening? Not just in the videos you have posted, but in many more in this country and around the world. I await your response. Have a nice day!

For now if it is at all possible for you to do, do not cherry pick my post, I know its hard for you since this is what jw's are best at, but if your going to insist on cherry picking, post the mostly positive things I said. And no where did I say anything about 1975 or Franz and all that. So your response is just a whiny defensive rebuttal instead of a coherent statement. Please don't comment unless you can do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But,Matthew, you didn't answer my question. Not cherry picking at all. If you posted these things were they positive for us? Or a beat down since you wished you could've dance when you were there at the hall. I still await an answer if you're not so busy, young man!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, growing up for 20 plus years in several different congregations, never was there once a play, a dance, a reception, party ever done at a kingdom hall. Even now, with a close relative who is a jw, they aren't even allowed to have a potluck get together at the local kingdom hall. So why did these things take place....I don't know, what I don know however is I was raised to believe that a kingdom hall was not allowed to be used as a place of celebration...aka party, only meetings, wedding ceremonies and eulogies were allowed. Sure there were wedding receptions, and of course with orchestra music, carefully picked secular music and one in particular I remember was they had a polka band, but these receptions were never at a kingdom hall. I remember a few other examples, but for another time I suppose. (but my child hood was very intense and violent, which I won't go into, if you would like to hear about it send me a message).

I have no grudge with this, anymore the past is the past, no use letting my experience affect my emotional state, at my age this is trivial, but there are aspects of it that are not trivial. IMO, this is just another example of 'new light'. And new light to make the gospel more relevant to believers. A lot of the 'new light' changes coming to congregations is starting to resemble worship services at many other churches, and I have been to a lot of different churches and denominations. If these services have been approved by the C.O. then I'm just curious what prompted the 'new light' revelation of this kind of joy now happening in a few congregations?

But I find your response insincere, judgmental, defensive and accusatory, since you immediately accused me of being a hater, and included in your response stuff that I didn't even mention, but you thought it important to bring up because....I don't know, you have a guilty conscience and want to move the discussion in a total different direction because your uncomfortable...I don't know. And I like how you try to single me out as a young man, what makes you think I am a young man, of course I am familiar with jw terminology and area you calling me a young man is your jw way of saying I am naïve, unknowledgeable and probably mentally diseased since I am no longer a jw? 

So do please share the personal experiences you have had with using the kingdom hall for celebrations where there was dancing, and plays being put on. It's great witnesses are now allowed to do that. And have a wonderful day yourself and enjoy the warm weather while we have it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

To be honest,

To be really honest @Matthew9969, these video clips are only superceded in cringeworthiness by the people who post them on line.

I can only hope that the halls used are merely rented facilities. A Kingdom Hall is a center of true worship in a community, not a centre of buffoonery. I note that some of the euphoria demonstrated seems to have a relationship to the visiting of international assembly delegates. Well, if this is intended as a cultural demonstration and welcome, then I can only shudder at the reality of the state of culture in the host nation.

There is no objection to engaging in this kind of inane lightheartedness in an appropriate setting, but if needs must, then go hire a community facility, or volunteer your garden. Don't go creating international embarrassment at such a childish and immature display in a setting normally used for educating people in Jehovah's righteous ways.

And as for the observation that this pathetic demonstration should somehow constitute "new light", then I for one will take the darkness any day of the week!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't view the videos. Perhaps I will in time. For now, I'll take @Gone Fishing's word that they are a bit "out there."

The Kingdom Hall is a building dedicated to pure worship. Many things that are not disapproved in themselves nonetheless are not sponsored there because that is not the purpose of the building. To some extent, they would water down the purpose.

4 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

but my child hood was very intense and violent, which I won't go into,

Understood. Thank you. We spend decades coming to grips with our past. Almost always it consists of separating the wheat from the chaff - after figuring out which is which. Sometimes we even walk back on that initial figuring.

 

4 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

But I find your response insincere, judgmental, defensive and accusatory, since you immediately accused me of being a hater

That does happen sometimes here. This is a rough and tumble site, that features black, white, and many shades of gray. I have made similar mistakes. I appreciate that this remark was not directed to me, but at another place, time, and person,  it could have been.

4 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

which I won't go into, if you would like to hear about it send me a message

This shows restraint. It is a quality not everyone has. If you like, you can send it to me. Do not feel you have to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16 As the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Psalm 149:3

 

3  Let them praise his name with adancing,

making melody to him with btambourine and clyre!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites





  • Topics

  • Posts

    • The bible itself says that we must not have fellowship with those who are brazen in conduct.  There is no "threat".  When a person is a spiritual threat to other brothers and sisters and does not stop brazen conduct......then only, after they have been requested many times to stop unacceptable behaviour,  are they disfellowshipped.  These are the ones who usually then defame JWs and hide the truth-  that they were disfellowshipped because of a Christian conduct,  be it repetitive lying, stealing, fornication etc...... a practice of some und of unacceptable behaviour. Many realize the need to change and come back into the fold - others become more brazen..... and defame JWs.   I see you did not like this comment. ...... it says a lot about you.  People like to blame "others" .... never themselves.... Adam blamed eve.... lol.
    • My daughter bought a small home in UK in a safe area. One bathroom, 3 bedrooms - and it costs over over half million pounds.   So a 1 million pound house (especially in London must be the size of a dingy) and  is definitely not the epitome of luxury -  which impression you are trying to create. To sell a house that people have been using is good. They can use this money to assist brothers in the rest of the world. I guess they are selling because it is no longer needed..... but if they kept it you would also complain.  One cannot ever please some people.....
    • I guess - according to you -  we can throw out all the scriptures which indicate the anointed will have heavenly bodies such as 1 cor 15 and revelations - too many places to mention.  Not even those which show they will be changed in an instant. And the scriptures in Hebrews which indicate that they will be priests in the heavenly temple of jehovah.   Jehovah is perfect in logic, so why give a heavenly body when a physical body is more suited to the earth?  The marriage of the lamb will take place where? Did Jesus give up his earthly body to receive a heavenly  spiritual body? And did he really say to his disciples they will be with him where he is? Agh, there are just too many scriptures which indicate it is a heavenly kingdom and heavenly rulership....and a heavenly priesthood - a function you have forgotten about by just wanting to " rule"......... .which tells me you are up to your same old, same old behaviours.  You boast you are of the body of christ...... so which "body" do you belong to which has perfect unity? . How many members?  Where do you meet?  And are you and your adherents fulfilling the prophesy that the good news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the earth?     
    • And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kingsr over the earth.”Rev 5:9,10 - NWT As a JW, this sounded accurate to me, since it fit the supporting doctrine that the “144,000” will rule strictly from heaven – “over” the earth...not within its vicinity, but from the spiritual realm.  What I have since learned about this scripture and Christ’s truth regarding where the anointed will be “ruling” from, has been an important turning point for me. Notice how the organization’s own Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures breaks down vs. 10: “and you made them to the God of us kingdom and priests and they are reigning upon the earth” Here are a few other examples: “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”  Scripture4all.org “…they will reign upon the earth”.  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5-10.htm It is very rare to find a Bible translation using the phrase “over the earth” in this scripture. The organization’s latest pictorial depiction of the 144,000 kings/priests ruling in heaven was of a vast array of emerald green thrones where men appearing identical to one another and to Christ, gazed over the earth as Christ’s “co-rulers”.  I wonder what the anointed JW women feel about a female’s apparent transition into a man, who are clones of each other.  This teaching sounds ridiculous to me today.  However, since the role of JW women is repeatedly slighted, should we expect any acknowledgement of the anointed being both male and female?  I could be in error, but I haven’t seen any photos of women partaking in the magazines.  There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28 To be one in Christ does not mean the faithful sealed anointed take on the same physical appearance as Christ. All of the members of a fleshly body are distinctly different in appearance; working separately yet collectively, with the unified goal to allow the body to work efficiently.  It is the same in the Body of Christ. 1 Cor 12:15-20  All are given various gifts, and all are individuals with individual personalities. They have abilities reflecting the gift they receive.  Paul described it this way: There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.  1 Cor 12:4-6 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 1 Cor 12:19,20 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized byone Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. 1 Cor 12:12-14 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.  Eph 4:11-16 The 144,000 are the Bride of Christ under the New Covenant “woman”/promise.   (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:29-32; Gal 4:26) It is curious that the WT's leaders rarely go into detail about this.  When I recall their latest illustration described above, I don’t believe the artist had the idea of “bride” in mind. I could only sense an aura of steely authority, without the needed compassion and love that Jesus exhibited and taught his disciples to nurture within themselves. (Isa 42:3; Matt 14:14; John 13:34,35; 1 John 4: 17; Heb 4:15) Just as a bride and groom are not identical to each other, neither is Christ’s Bride of many members; either to Christ, or to one another, as the illustration erroneously shows. (1 Cor 12:29,30; Eph 4:11-13)  Marriage partners compliment and support each other in love.  It is the same with the Body of Christ, being united in one Spirit that imparts love, faith and knowledge of Christ and the Father. The organization’s leaders are unable to perceive this spiritual unity, since they have rejected the Spirit of Christ, in exchange for the spirit of Satan.  (John 15:4-7;1 Cor 6:15-17; 2 Cor 11:3; 2 Pet 1:10; Rev 2:4; 8:10;13:11) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  1 Cor 2:12-14  In order to “rule on the earth”, God’s priests must be on the earth.  If we can shed the false belief that once the 144,000 are sealed in “heaven” they will remain there, we are then able to grasp how such “heavenly” angel/messenger/priests will be found ruling, teaching, and helping God’s future children on the earth.  (Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Heb 1:14; Rev 5:9,10)   We can comprehend God’s “new creation” as having two “births”; one by fleshly parents through Adam and Eve, (Gen 2:7) and one by spiritual parents.  (John 3:3,5; 1 Cor 15:50; John 15:45; 20:22; Gal 4:26) Once Jesus was resurrected, he appeared many times to his disciples in the flesh; and just as easily, disappeared into the spirit realm.   His example set the precedence of what it means to be a “new creation”.  (Mark 16:12; John 21:14; 1 Cor 15:3-8)  By combining this event with Pearl Doxsey's help from her article, “Who are the gods?”, we can visualize the 144,000 “angels” present not only in the spirit realm, but on earth as well: The sons of God ("gods") inherit the promises given to Abraham. What promises are these? "I will make you very fruitful (John 15:8) I will make nations of you (Rev 5:9,10), and kings will come from you (Rev 20:4; 1:5; 3:21; 19:16,15; 2:26,27)". “Jacob had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.  There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying  (Ps 37:29; Heb 2:5,16; Gal 3:29; Heb 11:8-10; 13:14; Rev 21:2; Heb 12:22,23; Luke 10:20) (Gen.17:6).  Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring (Rev 22:2). I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go (Matt 28:20), and I will bring you back to this land (Rev 21:7).  I will not leave you (John 14:18) until I have done what I have promised you (John 16:22).  Jacob was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place (Heb 12:22,23,28)! This is none other than the house of God (1 Cor 3:9,16; Isa 56:7; Eph 2:19,10); this is the gate of heaven (Rev 11:6; Matt 16:19; Rev 3:12; John 10:9; 2 Cor 5:20)." (Gen.28:12-15,17) "Jesus added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open (Luke 24:32; Rev 2:17; Matt 13:11; Rev 4:1; 1:1)  (John 3:12; 1 Cor 2:12,13; Col 3:2), and the angels of God ascending and descending (Heb 12:22; Eph 2:6; Rev 3:21) "on* (Greek--*"in service to") the Son of Man.” (John 1:51) The "angels" (Lit. Greek, "messengers" – Isa 43:10,21; 1 Pet 2:9; Mal 2:7; Acts 1:8) referred to here, could not have served before the time of Christ (John 3:13) Jesus specifically said that they are in service on "the Son of Man" (1 Cor 4:1).  The "Son of Man" is Jesus in the flesh (John 1:14). Therefore, these angels serve Christ, after his coming down from heaven.  To be a messenger of Christ ("ambassador") who harbors God's spirit of life within... who has been made new (Rom 12:2; 8:11) as a part of God's new creation (2 Cor 5:17) by means of incorruptible seed, the Word of God (1 Pet 1:23; Luke 8:11)... …who has been reborn as a Son of the Most High (John 3:3,5; Rom 8:16,17,19,28-30)... who has been made an immovable pillar in the eternal heavenly Temple of God (Rev 3:12; Prov 9:1; Jer 1:18)... ...is a "god" (Ps 82:6; Rom 8:14; 1 Cor 8:5).  I do hope readers here find this information to be a personal turning point as it was for me, in learning that both Christ and the 144,000 kings and priests/ Bride of Christ, will have access to heaven as well as on earth, and living among God’s future children in the Kingdom. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.” Matt 5:14  Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. Rev 21:1-3  “But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” Rev 21:22 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Rev 22:3-5 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16 Pearl Doxsey: (type in her name and the title of the article in the search bar. The link should appear) “End of the New Covenant” “Those not anointed – what benefit now?” “The Holy City”   PLEASE SEE AND ENJOY,   “The Holy City” - http://pearl-holycity.blogspot.com/   Pearl Doxsey, “End of the New Covenant” Those not anointed-what benefit now? - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/04/i-received-two-questions-1.html         And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Heb.1:6) "Jesus will again, be brought into the world. At that time, the totality of his angels/messengers, will worship him... and be in service to, the Son of Man."  Pearl Doxsey
    • We do have very good reasons, the math for 1914 wouldn't work out otherwise Yes, I think we would laugh. After all, messing around with numbers to "fit something you want it to fit" sounds pretty cultish. When looking at this subject again, in light of Br. Splane's talk about types and antitypes, and how he said that (paraphrased) we have to make sure that when we are talking about types, that they are genuine types, because the word of God says they are puts a whole different slant on it. Then the idea is enforced even further when he says who is to decide if a person or event is a type, if the word of God doesn't say anything about it and he quotes Br. Shroeder: ( We need to exercise great care when applying accounts in the Hebrew Scriptures as prophetic patterns or types if these accounts are not applied in the Scriptures themselves). Therefor reading the account in Daniel 4 without any preconceived ideas, I see these main lessons: verse 17  "This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.”  Lesson: (quite self explanatory really) Jehovah can do what he wants because he is the ultimate sovereign. verse 27  "Therefore, O king, may my counsel be acceptable to you. Turn away from your sins by doing what is right, and from your iniquity by showing mercy to the poor. It may be that your prosperity will be extended". Lesson: Listen to Jehovah and do right, otherwise Jehovah will discipline you. verse 37  “Now I, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are just, and because he is able to humiliate those who are walking in pride. Lesson: similar to above, and also proof that Jehovah carries out his discipline.  ---------------- The reasoning put forward as to why this particular chapter of Daniel (4) has greater meaning (paraphrased from WT October 2014) is that the book of Daniel has a central theme, that of God's Kingdom, and keeps pointing forward to the establishment of that Kingdom under the rulership of his Son, Jesus. For example what it says in Daniel 2:44: "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.” I can see that Daniel Ch 2 is talking about Neb's. dream of the statue, representing subsequent rulerships, and that during the feet period God's Kingdom will come. In my opinion this is one valid and definite description of when the Kingdom will come. Then Chapters 7 and 8 are full of cryptic beasts, Chapter 9 prophesy about the coming of the Messiah including his cutting off, chapter 11 more cryptic descriptions, this time involving the king of the north and south, and the last chapter (12) the time of the end with Michael standing up. I need an encoder! I must admit, because of my more practical disposition, when we studied the Daniel book, I did not pay enough attention. My son was quite small and I had my hands full, and I can't even remember if we studied it again after that? For example what are these numbers about?: Daniel 12:11  “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12  “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" (It's ok, no need to answer, I can look it up myself).   ,Sorry, I was being confusing. I didn't mean 607 was special. I meant what happened when counting 2520 years from that date, I meant that 1914 was a very significant year. (have to go, will carry on later)
    • My daughter would play her album Time After Time, over and over. When I found out that Eva Cassidy had already died when the album came out, it kind of made a few of the songs sound even more "haunting" than they already were.
  • Popular Now

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.