What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?

[Srecko Sostar]

On 11/22/2017 at 07:14, Anna said:

The Watchtower stated some years ago: “Survival will depend on obedience.”

The paragraph that follows,  (Par. 20) talks about us learning to obey the Slave now, so that when the time comes we will “obey” the Slave then, because our salvation depends on it.  But the scriptures clearly show our salvation depends on lots of other things, one of them being enduring faithfully to the end.  

For the sake of this discussion I see the need to separate for a moment organizational procedures and spiritual matters, 

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs in the “God’s Kingdom book”  is: “you better obey the Slave NOW or you’re gonna die!”

LESSONS FOR TODAY (WT study edition, nov 2013)

17 . ....(3) At that time, the LIFE-SAVING DIRECTIONS that we receive FROM Jehovah’s ORGANIZATION may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us MUST BE READY TO OBEY ANY INSTRUCTIONS we may receive, whether these appear SOUND from a strategic or human standpoint OR NOT. 

 

AND NOW (after few years we have) SALTO MORTALE

“WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?” (WT study edition, feb 2017) 

12 The Governing Body IS NEITHER INSPIRED NOR INFALLIBLE. Therefore, IT CAN ERR IN DOCTRINAL MATTERS OR IN ORGANIZATIONAL DIRECTION. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, JESUS DID NOT TELL US THAT his faithful SLAVE WOULD PRODUCE PERFECT spiritual food.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 12:45, JW Insider said:

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide."

Basement Video on Convention is one example of direct statement  how should, would, will JW be saved  by resurrection . :)))

 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JESUS DID NOT TELL US THAT his faithful SLAVE WOULD PRODUCE PERFECT spiritual food.

But HE DID NOT SAY THAT SPRITUAL FOOD WOULD BE PROVIDED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JESUS DID NOT TELL US THAT his faithful SLAVE WOULD PRODUCE PERFECT spiritual food.

But HE DID NOT SAY THAT SPRITUAL FOOD WOULD BE PROVIDED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!

The slave does not produce spiritual food, it's just that any servant that is properly motivated will do what they can to share what they can. Our Governing Body has done an excellent job in finding efficient ways to share "spiritual" food, because the ministry they have chosen to administer for us is a teaching ministry. But the illustration of the "wicked and faithful slave" that this idea is based on says nothing about spiritual food specifically. A true steward will always do what is in his power to effectively carry out his ministry.

But all of us are slaves of Christ, and all of us should learn from the same illustration, whether it is spiritual food we share, physical food, comfort, clothing, support, encouragement -- our food should be for us to do the will of our Father. But I think it's clear that the "food" includes sharing physical food, wherever such a stewardship and ministry is necessary.

• (James 1:27) 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

• (Acts 6:1) . . ., the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution.

• (1 Timothy 5:3-8) 3 Give consideration to widows who are truly widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight. 5 Now the woman who is truly a widow and left destitute has put her hope in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. . . .  8 Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.

• (Matthew 10:42) 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”

Paul made a point to show that there is no separate "body" within the "body of the congregation." People who believed this would look to men who were good teachers of spiritual things, like Paul himself, or Apollos. Paul said: all Christians were fellow servants, and that all of us carry the burdens of one another. Yet in the end, we are responsible for our own spiritual standing -- not because of specific teachings produced by others.

• (1 Corinthians 3:5-9) 5 What, then, is A·polʹlos? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one. 6 I planted, A·polʹlos watered, but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. 8 Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.

• (Galatians 6:2-5) 2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

• 1 Corinthians 7:22-24) . . .he that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 YOU were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever condition each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it associated with God.

I think we should take offense at the idea that the Governing Body produces spiritual food. Jesus is the food. And all of us will be taught ultimately by Jehovah.

• (John 6:45-58) 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me. 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father. 47 Most truly I say to you, whoever believes has everlasting life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

• (1 Corinthians 3:11) 11 For no one can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So far, we should remember that so many times when the Governing Body has attempted to produce food, that food has soon rotted or has become stale. But there has always been great permanent value in everything they have shared, even when they are just sharing a cup of water with another one of Christ's brothers when directing a response to material disasters around the world, or other helpful services, or rebuilding a place of worship, or sharing Bibles and Bible-based publications and videos, talks, sermons, artwork, organizing assemblies, etc. But we shouldn't shirk our own part in all this. It's important that ALL of us are faithful and discreet stewards. Otherwise, I think we have missed the point of Jesus' illustration in Matthew 24, and might sometimes just be relying on obsolete types and antitypes to avoid carrying our own load.

• (1 Peter 4:10-11) 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways. 11 If anyone speaks, let him do so as speaking pronouncements from God; if anyone ministers, let him do so as depending on the strength that God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.. . .
• *** Rbi8 1 Peter 4:10 ***    Or, “house managers.” Lit., “house administrators.” Gr., oi·ko·noʹmoi; Lat., di·spen·sa·toʹres; J22(Heb.), kesoh·khenimʹ, “as stewards.”
• (1 Corinthians 12:27, 28) 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation:. . . teachers; . . . helpful services; abilities to direct;. . .

When Jesus returns to ask who among us were really faithful stewards, and who were shirking our responsibilities, imagine his reaction --in light of these scriptures-- if we were to tell Jesus that we thought we were supposed to depend on a specific body of men to define what he meant by ministering and to define the types of food we shared with others.

• (Luke 12:47, 48) 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.

[Noble Berean]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is the same with those like @Noble Berean who started this line of discussion, with the GB. It cannot be that God works through that group of men? Don't be such a wimp! Extend your logic to Jesus and Paul. Take your Bible and rip out every book after Acts.

Perhaps I haven't been very clear with my wording on this forum. I don't actually disagree with a Governing Body existing over the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. That would be like me questioning why each congregation has an elder body. It is clear that the GB fulfills the role of an elder body over the entire congregation on earth.

What I take issue with is the unquestioned obedience that the GB demands. I have yet to receive satisfactory, Scriptural evidence for this view. Is this how the first century apostles perceived themselves? Any questioning by JWs is compared to the fatal murmuring of Korah and his associates, but Moses was a prophet for Jehovah God. When he spoke to the people, it was like God himself spoke. He was granted the authority by Jehovah to lead the Israelites like God. Jehovah made his divine support of Moses clear when he parted the Red Sea and performed many miracles in his name. When Moses spoke to the people with a thought generated by his own imperfect mind rather than God's, Jehovah actually removed his blessing of the Promise Land. The GB don't speak as prophets, and it is clear they often speak and direct with thoughts generated by imperfect, human minds rather than God's mind. They acknowledge that they have erred in their direction throughout the organization's history. So, how can they expect the same level of obedience that Moses received? It doesn't add up in my mind. Besides, it is Jesus who is the greater Moses and not the GB.

Now, you may say that prophets don't exist anymore, so it's unfair to expect prophets in this day and age. That's true. We no longer need prophets, because we have God's complete word in the Bible. I believe that Jesus Christ's leadership is expressed through the Bible. It trumps all human authority. It is the "check" to us all. The Bible stands alone. In my research, I pondered why Jehovah separated the roles of apostles and prophets into two groups in the first century. I have my own theory that Jehovah did so to prevent one  group from gaining too much authority--sort of like the checks and balances in the US government. But the GB acts as those taking the lead and guardians of doctrine. Instead of the Bible "checking" their authority as an independent entity (like an auditor), it has become completely intertwined with the GB. They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message. So, no one else can use the Bible to check them, because they can simply discredit that individual by saying that he/she was not chosen by God to interpret the Bible. Therefore, their interpretation is invalid.

It's like when the gov't does an internal investigation...we roll our eyes. We know that it won't be too critical against itself, but instead create an outcome that is the most favorable. The GB has interpreted the Bible and structured the org in such a way that gives them maximum control and minimum accountability. They essentially play both sides of the fields: God's channel that deserves unquestioned obedience and the imperfect human group that err. Having to be submissive to a GB who play these 2 conflicting roles is very frustrating for me. I don't know how to work with them.

And while I've said a lot, I just want to be clear that I don't want to usurp anyone's authority--especially in God's religion. My questioning is how I make my faith and my ideology firmer. I'm a work-in-progress. I'm not so dogmatic to claim I have all the right answers. My views are evolving, and I appreciate the discussions on here.

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

But HE DID NOT SAY THAT SPRITUAL FOOD WOULD BE PROVIDED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!

He ask, rhetorical question; "Who is FDS?" In asking Jesus not gave the answer.

Only 2 conclusions;

A - IF FDS giving food he is ok and will receive revard 

B - IF FDS not giving food he will be punished. 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The slave does not produce spiritual food.... (and other thoughts) 

Yes, GB  does produce "food" (millions of printed/published publication proved this). In text you explained very well about rooted food from FDS aka GB. Such "product" is not from "heaven". Well who is Producer/Manufacturer  of such rooted food?? 

If "slave" doing his job well he will not received any compliment from Master. Because his job is to work, to serve. And other slaves around this particular "slave" not need to sing praises about "slave" who bring food on table, And also this particular "slave" must quietly doing his job and not talking around how he doing this or that and how all his work is fantastic and unique in the whole world. Such servant is not Modest. And will not receive higher position in Master's household. 

I agree with you, if understand you correctly, how every person is/can be FDS in some situation.

I agree how illustration about FDS  tells us nothing about Quality of Food. So, GB self conclusion about  what  words "Jesus never said" is pure manipulation and deceiving.  They, GB also sometimes using fraze, while introducing new theories or new changes of doctrines, like this: "Jesus was thought, He obviously meant ..." and then put OWN human idea :)))

Also, GB by own retrospective self evaluation of food quality ("perfect food" vs "imperfect food") shows how they consider themselves not only as "producer aka kitchen chef" and "sharers aka distributors" of food BUT also as  inspector and controller of food quality. They appropriated the right to evaluate food - this right belongs to the Lord, Master.

Blessed you!

[Srecko Sostar]

7 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They appropriated the right to evaluate food - this right belongs to the Lord, Master.

P.S. about food quality.

Master is One who have  absolute ability to check "the food" and to say all critics and all compliments how and what food was served on a table. Here we have two segments, as you JW Insider also concluded; 

1) Perfect food from Jesus is served on the table

2) Rooted food from Human is served on the table

Is table the same table? Or we have two and more tables?

If table is one, and we sitting and waiting for food. And then food start to coming 3-5 time in a day and for weeks and for years. Did I or you not developed ability to recognize all  different tastes and smells of food? How was food served on table? Did same servant came and bring food or some new faces coming with new dishes? 

Who is responsible if i am eating food which taste is suspicious to me (food is not "perfect) and i am stubborn in decision to eat "imperfect", rooted food despite of fact how my taste buds and nose and eyes start to questioning the food? "Kitchen chef" will answer to Master. To whom will answer "distributor of food" the one who bringing food on table? I guess also to Master, no matter did he knew or not what was happen in kitchen in cooking process. And what will be with hungry people around the table. Can they "sue" Chef or Waiter for food they ate? Or to make complain?  It depend.  :)))

[TrueTomHarley]

I learned a lot from my grandmother, who we all called Nana, as a kid.

Also, here is a treat for hungry as a hog @The Librarian

[Srecko Sostar]

50 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Vit lowliest fluoride-doast looserss -at dat!

Nana, i do not understand this sentence. Google translator is powerless to help me.

But all at all , thanks for very good arguments  ;)))

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is the food. And all of us will be taught ultimately by Jehovah.

Jesus is bread and in that meaning is food for us, also as his blood is drink for us. 

Serving to others (doing Father's will) was food for Jesus.

Father's will for us is that Jesus teaching us. He is "Great Teacher" (book) :)))

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

hmm...

Dear Nana,

i see you gave me LIKE symbol, but...

My thanking you for "very good arguments" was in irony mode. To clear misunderstanding  and meaning of written words i was send to you i will put it this way;

"I am sorry Nana, but i don't see how your comment/explanation giving arguments."

All best Nana!

[TrueTomHarley]

Nana reminds me of Paul going nuts under provocation. Squelch her, @The Librarian (you old hen) and you must also squelch Paul:

"Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman I am more outstandly one!" Paul cried in exasperation, pulled rank for several verses, and then they hauled him away to check his blood pressure and give him a sedative.

"You are going mad, @Nana Fofana Great learning is driving you into madness!"