What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?

[TrueTomHarley]

50 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@TrueTomHarley I am enforcing the no rudeness rule heavier than before.

Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. As you probably are aware, not everyone on Facebook, Twitter and the Internet is nice and civilized. Some are rather rude. You are hereby forewarned.

Oops. Just noticed:

"To be fair, this topic is not under controversial posts, but under Bible discussion, because that was what I was hoping it was going to be...."

Sorry. I think

[Noble Berean]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

[TrueTomHarley]

29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

What happened just now? Still trying to find out.

 

I don't think I know myself.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

I also meant to mention @Melinda Mills who like me, finds  other poster's comments (not the rude ones) helpful and inspire her to do more research and "reason out a matter" .

[JW Insider]

Just got back home. Anything happen while I was out?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Just got back home. Anything happen while I was out?

North Korean Dictator Kim Jong Un launched a strike on the North Pole, ruining Christmas, proving he's not all THAT bad!

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

For now 

[Anna]

 

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

Then 1Cor 10:31 stands. The concept of  judgement on whether humans are classed figuratively as sheep or goats is drawn from the parable which shows that judgement to be based on how they treat Christs "brothers" (Matt 25:31-46).. So, respect and solidarity for and with anointed Christians, and particularly the Governing Body, is a key component of the favourable judgement.

But if anyone thinks that just standing by an organisational arrangement serves as the sole ticket to Armageddon survival....well..... let me know how that works out, although the "probably" is starting to look a bit "probably won't" from here.

I am looking at a whole range of other scriptural criteria as well, (like Mic 6:8), on this issue, and I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements. To me that is the part of the purpose of the congregation as described for example at Eph 4:11-16.

Yes indeed, "united we stand, divided we fall"

And I like this remark you make " I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements".

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

On that basis I cannot see that encouragement to be obedient to instructions and directions by means of the Christian congregation through these crtical times would be in any way a sinister or underhand scheme to over assert authority, or to somehow direct attention away from our need to have complete dependence on the "one who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen?na".

I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority, but rather I am:

1. wondering about the application of the scriptures that were used, using them to show that there will be, without a doubt, special instructions passed on from Jehovah to the Slave, then to the congregations, to preserve us alive.

2. wondering about the logic of such an interpretation. Just yesterday we were asked if our house could be used for a new field service group (as there is a need for another group because of the increase in the congregation) and I reminded the brother (tongue in cheek) that we don't have a basement and does that matter. (For those who don't know the significance of this it's from the idea that service groups will receive instructions for the survival of Armageddon (it used to be Book Study groups) and from the insinuation at the convention video where the (presumably) field service group were hiding in a basement). Then I get to thinking along practical lines. Each group is different, (location, publishers, some old and infirm etc.) and has different circumstances (different countries). Does that mean that "specific instructions" will be passed to each individual group overseers, or slightly more general such as  "those groups that have a basement go and hide in there, those who don't have one get with a group that does, those who don't have access to any basements go and hide in the woods, those that are not near any woods go and hide in the shed etc. etc. even then as one can see it would become ridiculous to give out even generalized instructions because of the infinite number of specific circumstances that exist for each individual all over the world. Or are we thinking each group overseer is going to receive personal divine instruction for their particular group? It all seems just far fetched and unlikely...and on top of that, standing on a somewhat shaky foundation, as another poster reminded us of the 2017 Feb WT where it mentions that the Slave can err....... in organizational direction. Also, when will there be time for the announcement of such instructions to the congregations, especially since the day will come as a thief in the night while we are "in the field, or grinding at the hand mill"?

3. wondering about the manner used, insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon, rather  "our love for Jehovah and his sovereignty, appreciation for the ransom,  and our desire to please him".

 

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

So, I do believe we are kicking into the same goal are we not??.............

I like that. Yes!

[Evacuated]

@AnnaWell I know you probably mean this: "I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority," but when you then say this: "insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon", to use the word insinuating is a bit confusing to me in view of it's meaning. I definitely do not think the GB are making such an insinuation which would sound remarkably similar to the one made at Job 2:4. And I am sure you do not think that either.

You have raised a lot of logistical questions here regarding Armageddon survival strategies, but my feeling is that behavioural strategies are what are required more than anything at this time. The logistical stuff comes later and I am sure the GB will know how to delegate in this area according to local need. And I don't think one has to have a particularly sophisticated view of things in order to work that out.

Coincidentally, a couple of days ago some were discussing this very matter regarding Is. 26:20, around the role of Kingdom Halls in providing protection. Some rather narrow-minded views were expressed, but one older sister just casually remarked, "well it can't be about literally hiding in Kingdom Halls because they haven't got any in Russia, and anyway by that time they might be shut down all over the place" Everybody agreed that whatever means of protection Jehovah will provide, we'll have to be obedient to his instructions then, just like we are now, and any strangeness about those instructions will probably be in comparison to what those who don't trust Jehovah are doing at the time. (Compare 1Cor.1:25: "Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men"). Wonder what Egyptians would have thought about what the Israelites were doing with sheep's blood on the night of the Passover, (if any were aware)? Ex.12:7.

By behavioural instructions that seem strange, I mean ones based on, for example, Matt 5:29 "Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." This is the kind of "strange " instruction that is going to lead to salvation, not tenting out in what's left of the Kingdom Hall car park! Or skulking through the countryside with grab-bags full of beef jerky, wind up torches, and bottles of water! (Although, who knows?).

Rest assured, "Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, " 2Pet.2:9. It's working now through our obedience to the advice and counsel we receive. We have no reason to believe it will not continue.

[Anna]

On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

Perhaps I haven't been very clear with my wording on this forum. I don't actually disagree with a Governing Body existing over the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. That would be like me questioning why each congregation has an elder body. It is clear that the GB fulfills the role of an elder body over the entire congregation on earth.

What I take issue with is the unquestioned obedience that the GB demands. I have yet to receive satisfactory, Scriptural evidence for this view. Is this how the first century apostles perceived themselves? Any questioning by JWs is compared to the fatal murmuring of Korah and his associates, but Moses was a prophet for Jehovah God. When he spoke to the people, it was like God himself spoke. He was granted the authority by Jehovah to lead the Israelites like God. Jehovah made his divine support of Moses clear when he parted the Red Sea and performed many miracles in his name. When Moses spoke to the people with a thought generated by his own imperfect mind rather than God's, Jehovah actually removed his blessing of the Promise Land. The GB don't speak as prophets, and it is clear they often speak and direct with thoughts generated by imperfect, human minds rather than God's mind. They acknowledge that they have erred in their direction throughout the organization's history. So, how can they expect the same level of obedience that Moses received? It doesn't add up in my mind. Besides, it is Jesus who is the greater Moses and not the GB.

Now, you may say that prophets don't exist anymore, so it's unfair to expect prophets in this day and age. That's true. We no longer need prophets, because we have God's complete word in the Bible. I believe that Jesus Christ's leadership is expressed through the Bible. It trumps all human authority. It is the "check" to us all. The Bible stands alone. In my research, I pondered why Jehovah separated the roles of apostles and prophets into two groups in the first century. I have my own theory that Jehovah did so to prevent one  group from gaining too much authority--sort of like the checks and balances in the US government. But the GB acts as those taking the lead and guardians of doctrine. Instead of the Bible "checking" their authority as an independent entity (like an auditor), it has become completely intertwined with the GB. They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message. So, no one else can use the Bible to check them, because they can simply discredit that individual by saying that he/she was not chosen by God to interpret the Bible. Therefore, their interpretation is invalid.

It's like when the gov't does an internal investigation...we roll our eyes. We know that it won't be too critical against itself, but instead create an outcome that is the most favorable. The GB has interpreted the Bible and structured the org in such a way that gives them maximum control and minimum accountability. They essentially play both sides of the fields: God's channel that deserves unquestioned obedience and the imperfect human group that err. Having to be submissive to a GB who play these 2 conflicting roles is very frustrating for me. I don't know how to work with them.

And while I've said a lot, I just want to be clear that I don't want to usurp anyone's authority--especially in God's religion. My questioning is how I make my faith and my ideology firmer. I'm a work-in-progress. I'm not so dogmatic to claim I have all the right answers. My views are evolving, and I appreciate the discussions on here.

I have noticed that as yet, nobody has attempted to answer any of the very valid questions and points you raise. Is this perhaps because there is no foolproof answer? I have heard many times Christendom say that certain unexplained matters are a matter of faith. That is why religion is a faith based organization. While I don't subscribe to the way they use this explanation (because it's more blind faith) we do have to have faith that Jehovah will surely not allow any lasting harm to come to anyone that serves him out of a complete heart.

I for one, appreciate your honesty.  I think we are all a work in progress in one way or another (including the GB). Always learning new things. This is why I posted this particular topic, because it is something that I wondered about, you may not be too bothered about it, you may have something else on your mind. I think most of us, if we are honest, have some topic that we do not see eye to eye. But rarely do we make a public fuss and tend to ride it out, wait on Jehovah and see what happens.

And also as @Gone Fishing pointed out Matthew 25: 34-40 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.   For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably;   naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you?  When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’  In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"  Jesus tells us that supporting his brothers, which applies to the anointed, so the GB included (and by extension to all of us) is very important. This of course does not mean we will support something we believe is scripturally wrong.  Br. Jackson also  alluded to the fact that it is each individual's responsibility to "make sure" when he made this statement at the ARC, I quote: ": “Now, the Governing Body realises that if we were to give some direction that is not in harmony with God's word, all of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide who have the Bible would notice that and they would see that it was wrong direction”.  @JW Insider made some good points in his comment regarding producing versus sharing/distributing spiritual food. There is nothing the GB can add to the Bible all we can do is share its message effectively, which can include using Bible aids.

This brings us to the notorious question of interpretation, but by our baptism, didn’t we agree with the interpretation? But also I think it has definitely to do with faith. We had faith that what we were learning was the best interpretation we had heard.  Hebrews ch 11 gives examples of all those who followed Jehovah’s instructions because they had faith "in things not yet seen". Abraham didn't even witness some of the things he was promised.  

On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message.

This is not strictly true according to Br. Jackson:

Q.   And do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's spokespeople on earth?  

Br. Jackson.:  That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God's spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days - and Jehovah's Witnesses believe these are the last days - there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food.  So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.

also:

Q.   And the definitive interpretation of the Bible from time to time is the Governing Body; is that right?

 Br. Jackson: Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn't mean to say that we are just on our own   uunilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.

also

Q.   I take it, too, that the state of knowledge about the

scriptures and, in particular, historical knowledge about

scriptures, also improves or increases from time to time?

 Br. Jackson:  That is correct.  But there are some basic things in

 the Bible that have not changed right from the beginnings

 of the Jehovah's Witness religion, and I won't take your

  time, obviously, going through those, but it is important

  to realise what are basic things in the Bible.  For

  example, is the Bible from God?  There is no possibility of

  us changing our viewpoint on that" end of quotes

 

It is those basic things that I think we can all agree on. They are the backbone of our faith/religion. As for those other things, we may have our opinion, without causing any upset, provided we don't go and harass other people about them or try and make them see it our way.

Sorry, I am going to have to continue this later....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here or what was "explained very well", but if publications ARE- as called- "Bible-based literature" then you could say they are from heaven, couldn't you?

This two letter word you used - IF -  is very important in understanding this matter.  

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

In the "talents" parables , the master does praise the 2 who turn out to have multiplied the money with which he had entrusted them.

We are not talking about these "parables". In fact IS IT any of illustrations, stories in the Bible -"THE PARABLES" at all?????? 

Parables as GB used in the past before they changed a view on Bible text - type and anti-type interpretations. Well also the "parables" are included in this changed position of GB scholars, i suppose :)))