Jump to content

DeeDee

Can anyone explain this to me?: The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1,000 years were ENDED.

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

DeeDee -
JOHN BUTLER -
69
1481

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

Can anyone explain this to me?: Rev. 20:5 -- (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)…”?

 

I thought that our loved ones will be resurrected DURING the 1,000 years…

Does it maybe mean that they do not come to “everlasting life” until the 1,000 years are ended?

 

Full Scripture for Reference: (Revelation 20:4, 5) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello, DeeDee, think about what this verse is speaking about. It is not as hard as one think. Who partake of the 'first' resurrection? Those of the heavenly hope, and when they are given life, they are immortal, death has no hold there is no last test for them, correct? But those brought back to life during the reign of Christ, what happens when Satan is let loosed upon the earth? We all must past this final test, because if any fail they will end up where? So after this test death will be no more, all who pass has nothing but life in front of them, no testing of where their sovereignty lies, they have proved it. So the writer could put this what he saw in the future in those very words. Everyone else, the dead, would not come to life without death, until the 1000 yrs had ended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, John! That's what I thought it MUST mean... I was just concerned that if I use this scripture in teaching my Bible Student, that they would only see it for what it actually says. Yes, the REAL life won't be experienced until after we prove our loyalty and get through that final test! Thanks, again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*** re chap. 40 p. 290 Crushing the Serpent’s Head ***
The Rest of the Dead
14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, “(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.
15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead. (Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!

Get the Watchtower Library installed on your computer, so you can do your own research. You can use the online library as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

" Can anyone explain this to me?: The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1,000 years were ENDED."

How could it be any simpler than what is stated?

On 12/21/2017 at 3:57 PM, DeeDee said:

And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Idea No. 1.) 

"And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 ....  This is the first resurrection."

Idea No. 2  

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) ...

There.... that make more sense?

What could be simpler?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wait a minute. So after this 1000 years, who's left? Just jw's right? its only those who have associated with the organization, well according to the publications. Right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Who are they?

no, I was asking if the only ones left are jw's. Well actually not asking, but rather confirming what jws believe. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What could be simpler?

The way we understand it is a way that makes "simple" sense when we have already accepted the entire context of all that we aleady teach about the end-times. By end-times we can start from the the Russell-related messenger of the late 1800's preparing the way, and up to 1914 when Jesus is crowned king, along with a 1914 battle where Satan and his demons are released for a short time to wreak havoc on the earth and persecute God's people, along with a "first resurrection" that we say might have begun around 1918 or at least probably somewhere between 1914 and 1935.

So it is due in large part to accepting these beliefs about the "recent" past, that we believe the next things that will happen must include the following, in this order:

  1. Great Tribulation
  2. Gog of Magog surround God's people to attack (before the 1,000 year reign)
  3. Armageddon
    • Destruction of Gog of Magog (before the thousand year reign)
    • Binding of Satan and his demons
  4. The 1,000 Year Reign
  5. Release of Satan (at the end of the 1000 years)
  6. Gog and Magog surround God's people to attack (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  7. Destruction of Gog and Magog (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  8. Satan and demons thrown into lake of fire

This is spelled out in text and in "charts"  here:

  • *** w15 5/15 p. 29 Questions From Readers ***
    • Hello guest!

So from the viewpoint of someone who has already accepted a different solution to the order of these events, our "simple" solution, might seem rather confusing.

I'm not suggesting that we have it completely wrong, or that we should adopt a completely different solution. But I know that many persons might be confused as to why we (or the Bible) speak of Gog/Magog poised to attack God's people twice, and even more confusingly, why Gog/Magog is destroyed twice.  One of the alternate solutions even seems to remove the need to add parentheses to a portion of the verse in Revelation 20:5, as if it's an interruption to the order of events. Those parentheses are not in any of the original manuscripts of the Bible, so someone might wonder if it can make sense without seeing them as an interruption.

I don't think most of these other solutions are any more convincing than our own. Ours has a couple flaws, but so do some of the other solutions in my opinion. I'd be interested in Shiwiii's opinion on this whole end-times scenario to see if it can be made to fit any better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was younger, I would struggle with all these sorts of things .... and argue them.

Having experienced  "New Light" so many times I feel like an epileptic subjected to a  flashing strobe light ....

The famous phrase from "Gone With The Wind" movie comes to mind ...

"Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn !"

If I (or anybody) REALLY ever knows, it will be in the New System.

All else is speculation by people who PRETEND to know.

ESPECIALLY in "Revelation" which was to the Apostle John.

I suspect a LOT got lost in various "translations".

What could be simpler?

No muss, no fuss, no conflict.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JW Insider said:
  • Great Tribulation
  • Gog of Magog surround God's people to attack (before the 1,000 year reign)
  • Armageddon
    • Destruction of Gog of Magog (before the thousand year reign)
    • Binding of Satan and his demons
  • The 1,000 Year Reign
  • Release of Satan (at the end of the 1000 years)
  • Gog and Magog surround God's people to attack (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  • Destruction of Gog and Magog (at the end of the 1,000 years)
  • Satan and demons thrown into lake of fire

Isn't it believed by jw's that between your #3 sub points and your #4 is when God will sweep clean and destroy all who are not jw's at that time? Setting aside those who have died previously, we're only dealing with those alive during this period. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Isn't it believed by jw's that between your #3 sub points and your #4 is when God will sweep clean and destroy all who are not jw's at that time?

Yes. Some Witnesses would take that literally. But in the last couple of decades, there has been a toning down of the talk about who will be destroyed and who will survive. JWs expect to survive as a people, but there has been a lot more talk about Jehovah's justice and how we can't predict just how many others will survive, based upon their circumstances, age, mental capacity, opportunities to know about true Christianity, or even to know about Christianity in general. Witnesses rarely say they will be the only ones to survive Armageddon. We are not the judges. We don't know if thousands of other persons will survive, or millions, or even billions. Jonah, we recall, thought he was calling down destruction on the capital of a world empire, in effect, therefore, the entire world -- and for a while he was disappointed when Jehovah saved all the people he expected would die. 

From another perspective, #3 in that list was Armageddon, which we believe will be an obvious display of Jehovah's purposeful and selective judgments through his chosen King and Commander, Christ Jesus. This will not simply be a completely chaotic time of destruction. A scenario similar to the one Witnesses envision is that Gog/Magog will attack, and Jehovah will selectively protect the persons he wishes to protect.

Many persons will no doubt witness such spectacles of Jehovah's selective judgments, and realize they are not random, but purposeful. This would have to be interpreted as a true and spectacular judgment message from heaven. That means that, in effect, EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point, even prior to the spectacular and miraculous resurrection of persons brought back from just recently and long ago, with their memories intact. The newly resurrected, too, therefore, become witnesses of Jehovah's judgments, power, purpose. 

You will have to ask other Witnesses if they anticipate God's judgments working out differently. For me, this is a personal opinion but it can still fit the range of variations possible from current Witness teachings. It might have been difficult to allow for such variation even 25 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

EVERYBODY who witnesses Jehovah's judgments will now be one of Jehovah's witnesses at this point

Well put. This connects with a response I would make to this accusation: "You say only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved", namely, a question: How do you define a Jehovah's Witness?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The previous answers have much merit. It can also be summed up like this:

(Genesis 18:25-28) . . .It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?” 26 Then Jehovah said: “If I find in Sodʹom 50 righteous men in the city, I will pardon the whole place for their sake.” 27 But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the 50 righteous should lack five. Because of the five will you destroy the whole city?” To this he said: “I will not destroy it if I find there 45.”

We can safely leave the details and final decisions  about certain groups to Jehovah.  We must not presume to speak for him above what he has already said.  He will always do what is right. Every detail cannot be written down (John 21:25), but generally all the guidelines are clear (Ps 11:4-7; Ps 15:1-7).

(Isaiah 55:9) . . .For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Deuteronomy 32:4)  4 The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.

(Malachi 3:6) “For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish.
 

 


 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

Oh! I think we can expand on this to mean a more forceful literal decision that is placed upon humanity, of their choosing.

I'm sure you are correct. And speaking of the time near Armageddon as a literal decision point might be very appropriate, too. But none of us knows exactly when that final decision point would be for those who do not yet know better. Jesus is given authority to judge the heart, and we might wonder why Jesus said what he did about those in Sodom. (See the comment about Abraham and Sodom from @Melinda Mills.) He said that if those persons in Sodom had seen the miraculous signs that Jesus was then giving persons the opportunity to see, that those men in Sodom would have repented. Jesus was here claiming that he could judge the heart condition of the men of Sodom. Why?

Around Armageddon, which could be a literal time for that final "decision point" we envision that there will be clear signs from heaven. Will any persons at this time, who see these signs from heaven, have a heart condition like those persons in Sodom, who would have repented? Does this have any meaning to the one who judges the hearts? The same could go for the billions of unrighteous who are expected to be resurrected. Our teaching about them says that many of these will be kept around and remain alive for 1,000 more years and then finally destroyed at the end of that 1,000 years. But won't many of these billions of unrighteous persons see the obvious signs from heaven that are transforming the earth during this time?

If a person sees this and still doesn't want it, their heart condition is clear. Many persons, we expect, will be so steeped in their wicked lifestyle at Armageddon that they will prove their inability to repent and deserve a judgment of eternal death. They receive this judgment because Jehovah and Jesus, righteous judges who can read the heart, will make that judgment -- knowing in advance how they would react even if offered an opportunity for 1,000 years of signs from heaven. But some of the billions who are resurrected will be allowed to stick around for up to 1,000 years, even though it is therefore clear that they too could have been judged again almost immediately upon resurrection, long before they get destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. If our view of the 1,000 years is right, there is some other reason that they are treated differently or even judged by a somewhat different set of criteria. This is not something for us to worry about now. Just as it is not something for us to try to judge in place of Jehovah.

Historically, C.T.Russell envisioned all the millions or even billions of Christians going to heaven, and only 144,000 of them chosen to be Christ's bride. But he also expected about 20 billion "worldly" non-Christians to stay on earth through resurrection or survival where, over the years, they would be transformed into perfect subjects of God's kingdom. Russell, as you know, sometimes said things that made people believe he supported nearly a "universal salvation."

Rutherford, too, as part of the argument for "Millions" of "worldly" people then living being able to survive Armageddon into God's new world, also saw post-Armageddon as a time of transforming the minds of billions of persons who would see these signs from heaven and repent. Rutherford, in the "Millions" campaign, argued that a person could hardly be expected to want to go back to their "worldly" wicked ways once he has seen this transformation to paradise in the Millennium.

Even with the scriptures you quoted, we don't know the final time when you could say of these persons, "but that is what some of you were." It's also clear that many have already had opportunity to transform their lives based on knowledge of God and Christ and have already had opportunity to present themselves as either "sheep" or "goats."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But some of the billions who are resurrected will be allowed to stick around for up to 1,000 years, even though it is therefore clear that they too could have been judged again almost immediately upon resurrection, long before they get destroyed at the end of the 1,000 years. If our view of the 1,000 years is right, there is some other reason that they are treated differently or even judged by a somewhat different set of criteria. This is not something for us to worry about now. Just as it is not something for us to try to judge in place of Jehovah.

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign it is believed that they would have been healed by the King-Priest  and his 144000 associate king-priests and have become perfect.  They would be destroyed only if they fail the final test. (Rev 20)  

Righteous ones (survivors and those who get a resurrection to life) will most likely continue to be righteous in an environment free of Satan's influence if they did so in the former life with him around.  But they will have to be tested after attaining to perfection. 

See scriptures below, and comment on how they relate to your statement above.

"(Isaiah 26:10) Even if the wicked is shown favor, He will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah."                     

(Resurrected unrighteous ones would be given the opportunity in the new system to see the majesty of Jehovah - those not seeing will have proved to be wicked and will disappear from the earth)

"(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age. "                            

(No one will be disadvantaged by hunger, sickness, deformity, disease, short life span, etc.  Will live healthy lives and afforded ample time (lifespan) and opportunity to learn about Jehovah and will be expected to transform their lives according to Jehovah's will (see the eminence of Jehovah's way of doing things).  Those  who continue to love sin, will be cursed/cut off.

This sabbath period of 1000 years will be for learning about Jehovah (scrolls opened) not the practising of sin.  All the scriptures mentioned by AllenSmith pertain to things people choose to do.   So I don't believe there will be any big group of people sailing along and enjoying the Paradise and not acting in harmony with the expectation for them, after they are taught. I believe they will be taken out of the earth, once they get ample knowledge of Jehovah's requirements.   

Choosing was always connected with  getting God's approval.  As we learned in our meeting this week, Jehovah draws us but he doesn't force us.  Deut 30:19,20.  All will have to show whether they are on Jehovah's side by their choices.

Why all who survive to the end of the thousand years will have to be tested:  What the final test will do for those who have been obedient up to the end of the the 1000 years will be to test their fitness for Jehovah granting them eternal life after Jesus would have healed and uplifted them.   Adam had that test while perfect and he failed it; all perfected people then would also have that test.  Satan would be used to test their motive for serving Jehovah.  (On every occasion where we invite people to enjoy themselves, there are always those who come along for the food and the entertainment, not really out of appreciation for the host.  Even in Jesus' time on the earth when large crowds were following him and he fed them, his disciples wanted to understand what he was saying but lots of people were satisfied with the literal bread, and also the cures,  and he detected it, and he told them so. They were not interested in spiritual things. ) Also Jehovah would want to ensure that peace and security would be permanent in the earth. He will eliminate those whose heart is not complete toward Him and who might possibly cause danger in the future. Satan would see to it that any rebellious tendency dormant in their hearts is shown up. 

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

He said that if those persons in Sodom had seen the miraculous signs that Jesus was then giving persons the opportunity to see, that those men in Sodom would have repented. Jesus was here claiming that he could judge the heart condition of the men of Sodom. Why?

Even this statement bears out the fact that people will be expected to act now and in the future paradise.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

I am unaware I was giving any timeline for the discussion.

True, I only meant that if you agree we are are now living in a time near Armageddon that your statements would apply at a time near Armageddon. Not intending to read into it anything more specific, but wondering just how close to Armageddon your words might still apply (for some).

1 hour ago, AllenSmith34 said:

C.T. Russell’s first inclination was only the 144, 000 would inherit the heavenly kingdom of God.

The "great crowd which no man was able to number" were to become "spirit creatures" in heaven. The 144,000 were "more than conquerors" but the "great crowd" (great multitude) were also conquerors, yet unworthy to become "more than conquerors." Page 297 of "What Pastor Russell said" includes the question and his answer:

  • Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the spirit plane? Answer -- Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling. They do not make their calling and election sure, but not being worthy of second death, they therefore receive life on the spirit plane."

I don't know how we would know Russell's "first inclination" even if you are right. One of the very first issues of the Watch Tower that Russell published included the following, in November 1880, p.4 (R156):

  • As the exemption from the seven last plagues in Goshen preceded the final deliverance from Egypt, so it seems that the "sea of glass" condition which is "mingled with fire" precedes the final entering of the temple in heaven of this "great multitude" of victors.

And one of the last issues of the Watch Tower that he published, February 1916, page 75-76 states virtually the same thing.

  • Here, then, we see the difference between two classes in the Church, all of whom are spirit-begotten, all of whom are called with the same High Calling . . . But although they cannot be recognized as the Bride class, we praise God for His mercy in indicating that they all belong to the company of virgins, the Bride's companions who follow after her. . . . The water of life which Jesus will give the second class will be everlasting life on the spirit plane like unto the angels. . . .

Rutherford repeated this same position about the "great crowd" (great multitude; great company) going to heaven up until at least 1932.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

My understanding from reading the Bible and Bible publications provided is that those who do not cooperate with the Kingdom government after Armageddon (resurrected ones) will be cut off. If they reach the end of the 1000-year reign

Yes. This is right. This is why I said "some" would remain until the end of the thousand years before being destroyed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By The Librarian
      JW Outline Talk The Resurrection.mp4
      Added to the list:
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      *Loophole 1* - A woman has a miscarriage, or in many cases, various miscarriages. How will those unborn babies be resurrected? And before you say that their god will bless her with those children like he did with his main man, Job, let's assume she is bird food at Armageddon. How will all those babies that died during a miscarriage (or, even an abortion) get resurrected?
      *Loophole 2* - A 15-year-old girl became a JW martyr and died while giving birth to a girl due to not accepting blood. The girl lives for 40 years and then Armageddon comes. New System (lol...funny name) is in full force and the 15-year-old girl pops out of the ground (resurrected). She will be greeted by her daughter who is more than twice her age?
      *Loophole 3* - A 10-year-old boy from an Amazonian Indian tribe dies one day before the Big A (lucky). His whole tribe and everyone he knows are slaughtered during Armageddon. Who will greet him when he is resurrected? If the JW interpretation of the Bible were real (for the record, I don't follow any religion), I would imagine that their will be a ton of orphans, scared with no one familiar to hug them or care for them. What a sad prospect....
      ...on the other hand, at least they will be able to hug a panda.
      via BrianFofinho
    • By Jesus.defender
      CHRIST’S BODILY RESURRECTION ‘I have power to take it again’Jn 10:18
      Watchtower Teaching: ‘Jesus was raised to life as an invisible spirit. He did not take up again that body in which he had been killed . . .’ ‘Let your Name be sanctified.’ (p.266).
      The Watchtower teaches that Jesus’ body was disposed of by God.
      The NWT mistranslates I Peter 3:18 as ‘being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’ to teach merely a spiritual resurrection of Christ.
      Bible Teaching: I Peter 3:18 refers to when Christ died. His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison (v. 19,20). After three days, Christ’s physical body was raised.
      I Peter 3:18 (KJV) correctly reads: ‘being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.’
      Which Scriptures best teach Christ’s bodily resurrection?
      1. ‘They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.’ (v.37) He said unto them, ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.’ (Luke 24:37, 39)
      Notice that the resurrected Christ says here that:
      (1) He is not a spirit;
      (2) His resurrection body has flesh and bones;
      (3) His physical hands and feet are proof of His physical resurrection;
      Jesus is trying to convince them that He, ‘I myself’ has a permanent physical body which still had the nail scars in His hands and feet. This is opposite to the WT teaching that Christ’s body was disposed of and that He became only a spirit. If the WT claim was correct, then
      Jesus would be deceiving the disciples here in showing them His body.
      2. ‘Then saith he to Thomas, . . . reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.’ (John 20:27)
      Here Jesus says that He has a physical side that He challenges Thomas to touch.
      3. ‘Neither did his flesh see corruption.’ - Acts 2:30,31
      Notice the following:
      a) God promised David that ‘according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ’ to sit on his throne.’ (v.30). This is a bodily resurrection of Christ, not spiritual. The NWT omits this because of its corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text. Well over 38 manuscripts have it.
      b) ‘neither did his flesh see corruption’ (v.31) means that Christ’s body did not decay.
      Why? Because Jesus was raised from the dead in a material, fleshly body.
      4. ‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21
      ‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21)
      Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days.
      Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection.
      5. Christ promises to eat of the fruit of the vine in the Kingdom. Only a body can eat.
      ‘I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come.’(Luke 22:18)
      Jesus here showed that his resurrected body would be able to eat and drink even in the Kingdom of God. Notice that a non-material spirit cannot eat and drink. Jesus promised the disciples in Luke 22:30 ‘that ye may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom.’
      Question: If Jesus expected to become an immaterial spirit, why would He promise the disciples that they would eat and drink with Christ at His table in His Kingdom?
      6. Christ ate a broiled fish and a honeycomb in front of them. Luke 24:41,42.
      7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11
      As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised.
      8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it?
      9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4
      A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming.
      10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6
      Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed?
      11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17
      Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature:
      a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44)
      b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven.
      They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body.
      Bible Teaching:
      a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual
      body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body.
      It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh.
      There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body.
      Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body.
      He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body.
      QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44.
      b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound
      humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom.
      c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53
      Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us.
      Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality),
      not taking away something from humanity (our material body)?
      Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37).
      For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      First off, Witnesses basically believe in an immortal soul, though they would be offended at that statement. They get around the issue by calling it "Jehovah's memory". An instance of this is in the Watchtower (w07 11/1 p. 26 par. 16) where it says:
      So, for example, let's say that some pioneer elder who has fifteen kids (that he's successfully raised in the 'Truth') dies tragically while doing business territory and helping an old lady cross the street. He's pretty much guaranteed a spot on the ole list, so he gets 'remembered' by Jehovah and his wife and kids.
      Time passes, Great Tribulation comes and goes, Armageddon happens with lots of screaming and pain and clergymen getting crushed by collapsing steeples. New System arrives. (Geez! Took long enough!) Now it's resurrection time.
      So Jehovah consults his list and sees our elder's name (we'll call him GA for 'Good Associate' and decides it's time to bring GA back.
      So what happens? Does Jehovah scrounge around for all of GA's molecules and put them together again? Nope, that part of him is gone (and potentially being used in other humans - Ewwww!!!). The Watchtower explains (w00 7/15 p. 16 par. 2):
      So Jehovah doesn't need to search for anything - that's great news! He can just sink a shovel in the dirt and get all he needs to build a hunky bod for GA. He gets to work and makes our buddy a body.
      So now God is standing there with a lifeless assembled corpse in front of him. What's next? Oh, right. We need crank this thing up and get it started. This is where it gets interesting, and complicated... and confusing... The Reasoning book (rs p. 333) says:
      So GA gets infused with his own personal identity. What is that? I don't know. No, seriously, I don't know. It's not his body, that's already been discussed. Is it his memories? No, because that's just GA's memories, that's not GA, you can download them into anyone or everyone. Is it his personality? That's not GA either, that's just wiring. What the heck is GA?!?
      To put this into perspective, let's put ourselves in GA's wife's shoes. Here is her resurrected hubby, young and hot, and just like she remembered (she's hot too btw). But how does she know it's him?  How does she know it's not just some conglomeration of molecules that was downloaded with GA's memories and wired to act like GA? She doesn't! And GA's no help either, because all he can remember is the good things about being GA. So neither of them know if GA is the real deal. They're both useless!
      And to really complicate things the Insight book (it-2 p. 786) says:
      Wait! What?!? Now, to be fair, this sentence is in a paragraph about those with the creepy heavenly calling. But it specifically says that the soul is different than the body - it's the person, apart from the body. In fact, it sounds a lot different than just being in Jehovah's memory. If I take GA's soul and put it back into some body (any body) - that's GA? Apparently, but don't ask me to explain, cuz' I don't get it. To me, it sounds like something survived when GA's body didn't, and when that got implanted in a new body it became new GA.
      This brings us back to Witnesses believe in an immortal soul. They really really want to believe that their dead loved ones will live again. But they also believe that there isn't anything that actually is the person, just memories in Jehovah's head. In that case, they can never be sure that their resurrected loved ones are who they used to be. This would terrify them if they ever took the time to think about it. But thankfully we can rest assured that Witnesses won't think about this and therefore we won't ever have to talk about GA ever again.
    • By The Librarian
      Antonio Timothy - The Resurrection Hope--Why That Hope Should Be Real to You.mp3
      Agape!
      @The Librarian
    • By DeeDee
      Can anyone explain this to me?...Rev. 20:5 --
      “(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)…”?
      I thought that our loved ones will be resurrected DURING the 1,000 years…
      Does it maybe mean that they do not come to “everlasting life” until the 1,000 years are ended?
       
      Full Scripture for Reference: (Revelation 20:4, 5) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    • By Brother Rando
      Many religions teach an array of traditions and customs from reincarnation to entering into another realm. Should we put our trust into traditions and customs?   “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)“ Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out,” (John 5:28)“And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:4)    Would you like to learn more? 
    • By Bible Speaks
      THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION 
      The devil can not prevent the resurrection of those in Jehovah's memory. 
      16 "At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before himfor those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. (Mal 3:16)
      28 "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice"
      29 "and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 6:28,29)
      15 "And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."      (Acts 24:15)
       

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • By JayDubya
      When our brothers lose a loved one, we often say, 'at least we have the resurrection hope.'  This is true, however, the Bible refers to death as a 'sting'.   It hurts and it doesn't go away as quickly as a bee.   
      I lost two parents in 20 days- Two funerals in 30 days.  At least I have the resurrection hope.   

    • By Jack Ryan
      Psalm 90:4 - "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." King James Version
      2 Peter 3:8 - ".........one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." King James Version
       
      So if one day = 1000 years, then the 2,520 days from Daniel = 2,520,000 years, Making Armageddon due around 2,519,393 CE.
    • By Jesus.defender
      CHRIST’S BODILY RESURRECTION ‘I have power to take it again’Jn 10:18
      Watchtower Teaching: ‘Jesus was raised to life as an invisible spirit. He did not take up again that body in which he had been killed . . .’ ‘Let your Name be sanctified.’ (p.266).
      The Watchtower teaches that Jesus’ body was disposed of by God.
      The NWT mistranslates I Peter 3:18 as ‘being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’ to teach merely a spiritual resurrection of Christ.
      Bible Teaching: I Peter 3:18 refers to when Christ died. His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison (v. 19,20). After three days, Christ’s physical body was raised.
      I Peter 3:18 (KJV) correctly reads: ‘being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.’
      Which Scriptures best teach Christ’s bodily resurrection?
      1. ‘They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.’ (v.37) He said unto them, ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.’ (Luke 24:37, 39)
      Notice that the resurrected Christ says here that:
      (1) He is not a spirit;
      (2) His resurrection body has flesh and bones;
      (3) His physical hands and feet are proof of His physical resurrection;
      Jesus is trying to convince them that He, ‘I myself’ has a permanent physical body which still had the nail scars in His hands and feet. This is opposite to the WT teaching that Christ’s body was disposed of and that He became only a spirit. If the WT claim was correct, then
      Jesus would be deceiving the disciples here in showing them His body.
      2. ‘Then saith he to Thomas, . . . reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.’ (John 20:27)
      Here Jesus says that He has a physical side that He challenges Thomas to touch.
      3. ‘Neither did his flesh see corruption.’ - Acts 2:30,31
      Notice the following:
      a) God promised David that ‘according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ’ to sit on his throne.’ (v.30). This is a bodily resurrection of Christ, not spiritual. The NWT omits this because of its corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text. Well over 38 manuscripts have it.
      b) ‘neither did his flesh see corruption’ (v.31) means that Christ’s body did not decay.
      Why? Because Jesus was raised from the dead in a material, fleshly body.
      4. ‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21
      ‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21)
      Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days.
      Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection.
      5. Christ promises to eat of the fruit of the vine in the Kingdom. Only a body can eat.
      ‘I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come.’(Luke 22:18)
      Jesus here showed that his resurrected body would be able to eat and drink even in the Kingdom of God. Notice that a non-material spirit cannot eat and drink. Jesus promised the disciples in Luke 22:30 ‘that ye may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom.’
      Question: If Jesus expected to become an immaterial spirit, why would He promise the disciples that they would eat and drink with Christ at His table in His Kingdom?
      6. Christ ate a broiled fish and a honeycomb in front of them. Luke 24:41,42.
      7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11
      As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised.
      8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it?
      9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4
      A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming.
      10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6
      Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed?
      11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17
      Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature:
      a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44)
      b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven.
      They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body.
      Bible Teaching:
      a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual
      body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body.
      It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh.
      There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body.
      Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body.
      He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body.
      QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44.
      b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound
      humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom.
      c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53
      Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us.
      Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality),
      not taking away something from humanity (our material body)?
      Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37).
      For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.
       
    • By io.porog
      Who will call the dead to life? Who is doing the calling in these scriptures?
      Because my friend thinks Jesus is the one who will do the calling, but thought it was God going by Job and John here:
      Job 14: 13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me,
      That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
      That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
      14 If a man dies, can he live again?
      I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
      Until my relief comes.
      15 You will call, and I will answer you.
      You will long for the work of your hands.
       
      John 5: 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 
       
      It would seem that Jehovah does the calling. But please let me know if I have this wrong and please provide references. Thanks.
    • By JAMMY
      http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/bios-incube
  • Who Was Online   86 Users were Online in the Last 24 Hours   (Most members ever online in 24 hour was 87, last accomplished on .)

  • Forum Statistics

    59,332
    Total Topics
    104,954
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    15,926
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Jahs slave
    Newest Member
    Jahs slave
    Joined




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.