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TrueTomHarley

Did Malachi Have Teenagers? - a Russian Thread

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TrueTomHarley -
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Either Malachi had sulky kids or all sulky kids have read Malachi. How else can you explain his style of writing?

Everything is a challenge. Malachi is the last Bible book – a short job of just four chapters:

“I have shown love to you people,” says Jehovah. But you say: “How have you shown us love?”

And if I am a master, where is the fear due me?’ Jehovah of armies says to you priests who are despising my name.” But you say: “How have we despised your name?

“‘By presenting polluted food on my altar.’ ‘And you say: “How have we polluted you?”’

“You have made Jehovah weary with your words. But you say, ‘How have we made him weary?’

Return to me, and I will return to you,” says Jehovah of armies. But you say: “How are we supposed to return?”

“Will a mere human rob God? But you are robbing me.” And you say: “How have we robbed you?”

“Your words against me have been strong,” says Jehovah. And you say: “How have we spoken against you among ourselves?”

Enough already! Everything is challenged! Everything is hurled back in his face.

Malachi is the last book of the Hebrew scriptures. Just for kicks, turn the page. Find yourself in the gospels and roll that attitude onto Mary, mother of Jesus. (Luke 1:26-28)

"In her sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to…Mary. And coming in, the angel said to her: “Greetings, you highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.”

“In what way is he with me?” she shoots back.

“Forget it!” comes the reply. “There is my servant Ethel. She’ll do fine.”

Whatever is wrong with Mary - not smart-mouthing the angel?

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So I am trying to get this book on the Russian situation done before Putin himself becomes a Witness and calls the whole thing off, and it is just one dumb thing after another to mess me up.

Don't misunderstand, if it happens, I will rejoice - 'greater good' and all, though it will mean a year's worth of work down the drain. (or would it mean a neat little chapter at the end?)

I'm not that far off. I can finish writing it in the waiting room at the collision shop.

 

image.jpeg

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I wrote before that much of the book has been written here on this forum, and that sometimes paragraphs already written are augmented or even replaced by what is written here. An example follows. I wrote what is next in answer to an unusually contentious person:

As far as I am concerned, Trump v Hillary is a godsend for Christians because it brings into stark relief 2 Timothy 3:1-5 - that endless list of negative traits. It used to be if you cited it and your listener didn't agree the verse is fulfilled now more than ever, there was not much you could do about it - it is subjective. But now its fulfillment is so obvious. 

It used to be people would scream at each other till the cows come home over God/no God, or medicine/alt medicine or various other sideshows that could be ignored by the average person. But with Trump/hate Trump, almost everybody is drawn in and 2 Timothy 3 becomes the yeartext for this entire system of things.

I had already made this point in the book. I replaced it all with what is above. It is more pointed, forged by addressing a strident faultfinder. The stuff it replaces was too professorial, and therefore ponderous and duller .

One benefit of posting is that you take note of the kickback you get and decide to what extent you want to address it. It doesn't really matter what you think you are saying - it only matters what people hear. Every rebuke is a check, and you must not blow it off as nothing, or you will be checkmated prematurely. Allies help you, like @JW Insider, when I say something not accurate and he throws it back in my face. But even idiots help you by supplying examples of how your words fall upon those with whom you disagree. Their reactions are the most helpful of all. You are not going to please everyone - especially on so volatile a topic as JW, but you don't want to needlessly antagonize people as you are being pointed.

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The upcoming book about Witnesses in Russia doesn't use the New World Translation as the 'house' Bible because the New World Translation is banned in Russia. 

I settled upon the New American Bible - Revised Edition instead and forced myself to accept that the name of God is 'the LORD.' 

In the Ten Commandments movie, the Israelites are despondent because they do not even know their God's name. Later on they are happy as pigs in mud. They have learned it It is 'The LORD'

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NABRE works just fine as a house translation for the book once you get around Jehovah being The LORD. But every so often, it alone had the 'correct' rendering. It alone carried the correct flavor. For example:

Paul summarizes God’s customary dealings with the Israel of that day: “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contentious people,” Romans 10:21

In the world of Bible translation, most works list ‘disobedient’ as the first adjective. The second is up for grabs. NABRE, says ‘contentious’. Others say ‘obstinate’, ‘rebellious’, or ‘stubborn’. Some older translations say ‘gainsaying’. (I remember seeing 'gainsay' in older JW literature and wondering what in the world that meant?)

The banned New World Translation says obstinate. But the pre-revised NWT hit the nail on the head, by saying they ‘talk back.’ Apparently when that version was revised in 2013, someone thought ‘talk back’ was too much of a paraphrase, but I like it best.

BTW, does anyone here have Beduhn's book 'Truth in Translation" who can tell me for endnotes the specific page the term "Protestant's burden" is defined? Also his statement that: 'translators “all approached the text [ John 1:1] already believing certain things about the Word... and made sure that the translations came out in accordance with their beliefs.”

Anyone?

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I begin to walk back what I said about the older NWT being too much a paraphrase at Romans 10:21. 

If in olde English 'gain' is the root word for 'against' and say means then what it means now, then 'talk back' is the most literal rendering of gainsay & and all the other Bibles, even the 2013 revision have veered from the literal.

Will @JW Insider go along with this? He knows a lot of stuff.

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Like many projects we embark upon, this one has done nothing but grow and grow, and I now have something about 140K words long. It will be the most rigorous work (really, the only rigorous work) I have done.
 
I am in the footnote stage now. 'Crowdsourcing' worked so well last time, let us try it again. I need some help with the following paragraph:
 
"As mentioned, eight governing members of Jehovah’s Witnesses were sentenced to American prison in 1918, on violation of the Espionage and Sedition Act. The religious press rejoiced. Dr. Ray H Abrams, in his book ‘Preachers Present Arms,’ reports: “I have been unable to discover any words of sympathy in any of the orthodox religious journals.” By this measure, the Russian media’s response was almost cheery. Most of them rejoiced, but not all. One that did not was Novaya Gazeta, which ran an article summing up Witness beliefs with reasonable accuracy, if not proper order, and was sympathetic to their plight – taking for granted that they must continue their ministry. Included were vignettes telling why some became Witnesses and how they felt they had benefited from the faith. One woman said that she regretted only one thing – that she learned about the Bible too late to save her first marriage. Applying Bible principles would have done it, she felt, if she only had known them."
 
 
Does anyone here have the 1933 book (it was revised in 2009) Preachers Present Arms, who can tell me what page the above quotation is on?

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50 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The religious press rejoiced. Dr. Ray H Abrams, in his book ‘Preachers Present Arms,Â’ reports: “I have been unable to discover any words of sympathy in any of the orthodox religious journals.”

I assume you know that this quote cuts across the bottom of page 183 and the top of 184 of the 2009 revision. It is paginated exactly the same in the original 1933. Here is a picture from both:

1933:

image.png

2009:

image.png

Your work, by the way, looks to be very well done if I can extrapolate from that snippet above. I would caution not to take this particular idea too far, as it turned out that he was wrong if you consider those religious bodies who wrote about the treatment of the Bible Students after the imprisonment was ongoing.

The reason "Upton Sinclair" is highlighted is because I had once remarked that I think the only two outside books promoted in the Golden Age were "Angels and Women" [Seola] and a book by Upton Sinclair. The Sinclair quote is from "The Appeal to Reason," March 22, 1918. Sinclair wrote for leftist papers, and as a Socialist was aligned (from a Labor perspective) with many of C J Woodworth's positions in the Golden Age.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Sinclair wrote for leftist papers

He also originated the irresistible quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it,”

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By happenstance I follow Russian experts @Bershidsky and @Robert_Bridge on Twitter, and find they are polar opposites. The former writes for Bloomberg and is critcal of today's Russia. The latter writes for RT.com and praises it.

That's good for the upcoming book. I do not want my perception of the king there to be formed by that of him here.

Bridge has the coolest banner photo I have seen. https://twitter.com/Robert_Bridge

It could be said (as I did) that his banner really puts the ass into astronaut. He said they are fighter pilots, not astronauts. What does he know?

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13 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I definitely wouldn't mind reading the rest of this Upton Sinclair article^ that appeared in the March 22, 1918 issue of his magazine, "The Appeal to Reason", but haven't found it online, so far.

I found it, but it has nothing to do with the quote that the author referenced in his footnotes. see footnote 17. But I have read the original so I figured it was a typo.

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Turns out that the author made a typo. I looked up the 3/22/1919 issue and found it:

image.png

edited to add a link to some information about the paper "The Appeal to Reason:"

    Hello guest!

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From the above:

In a telegram, Upton Sinclair makes the following statement in defense of the leaders of the International Bible Students' Association, who are now held in the Federal penitentiary at Atlanta, Georgia, because they expressed sincere views about the evil of war : "The Appeal has asked my opinion on the case of the leaders of the International Bible Students' Association who are now prisoners. I have known a number of these people, and while they may not appreciate the compliment I testify that they are sincere religious zealots. They are, unquestionably, victims of war hysteria and have certainly the right to appeal from America drunk to America sober. Their opposition to war was honest and they are entitled to the benefits given by the government to conscientious objectors. As a Socialist I oppose the suppression of ideas by violence, and claim for all beliefs the right of free competition in the field of public opinion. The fact that the government, as a matter of policy, refused refused to tell anybody what he might or might not say, refused to give any opinion of publications in advance, made the enforcement of our Espionage Act a disgrace. Moreover, there can be no question that the persecution of these followers of Pastor Russell sprang in part from the fact that they had won the hatred of 'orthodox' religious bodies. The 'orthodox' church is a vested interest and it fights for its privileges as all vested interests do today, not fairly but with intrigue and pretence."

Also, the same issue has the following on page 4. It's almost a full page, but here is the top portion:

image.png

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Can anyone tell me the title of the short story referred to? I could use it for the book. Its setting is czarist Russia.

Isaac's friend had a metaphor for life. He viewed himself as playing chess against God. This had both negative and positive connotations.

The negative was obvious: you didn't stand a chance against God. He would pound you with every move. But there was a positive side: no one wants to squander their time playing an unworthy adversary. It was a great honor playing against God. Even getting pummeled, you stood in awe of His skill.

The friend, a handyman, was summoned to repair a window casing. He was relieved to find the homeowner, a huge, mean, jealous bully, was away at work. But his drop-dead gorgeous wife was home ill, bedridden. The repairman had to use a stepladder and reach over the woman to reach the casing.

He slipped! He fell on top of the woman! Belt buckles locked and they couldn't separate. At that moment the door flew open; the husband had returned from work! His eyes and nostrils widened! He charged, fists clenched!

Our hero had time for only one thought: "Masterful move, God! Absolutely brilliant!"

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26 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Turns out that the author made a typo. I looked up the 3/22/1919 issue and found it:

I am impressed. Depending upon how heavy you are, you are worth your weight in gold.

The Librarian show start applying for a job at Mickey D.

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Isaac's friend had a metaphor for life. He viewed himself as playing chess against God. This had both negative and positive connotations.

It's far from the same story, but several elements of that story can be found in Isaac Bashevis Singer's: "A Friend of Kafka"

Try page 277-286 here: 

    Hello guest!

It's not the only story where he speaks of playing chess with Fate (or God) or uses similar analogies. He has written about 200 stories and I have only read about 10 of them. Elsewhere, I guess, he (or another person) could have boiled down that theme into the comedic scene you referenced.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's far from the same story, but several elements of that story can be found in Isaac Bashevis Singer's: "A Friend of Kafka"

Try page 277-286 here: 

    Hello guest!

It's not the only story where he speaks of playing chess with Fate (or God) or uses similar analogies. He has written about 200 stories and I have only read about 10 of them. Elsewhere, I guess, he (or another person) could have boiled down that theme into the comedic scene you referenced.

Ah, Franz Kafka, my fellow countryman. I had to read his book "Der Process", in German, in an English school :D.

I haven't read anything of Isaac Singer's.....

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35 minutes ago, Anna said:

Ah, Franz Kafka, my fellow countryman.

From the "Intorduction":

I did realize from the onset that the New World Translation would have to go. Even a quote from it is enough to designate a book as extremist. Even, in theory, Jesus’s words about how one must love one’s enemy. Such quoting might not actually draw the wrath of officials, but it is difficult to know for sure. Russia is a land of Kafkaesque contradictions in matters of religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses are declared extremists in Russia and shortly thereafter Putin inducts one into the Order of Parental Glory as a fine family example.

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