Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse / Pedophilia and the Governing body.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley Well I think God made it clear how He dealt with the Nation of Israel when they turned their backs on Him. And i think God makes it clear through His word what he expects from His people. As for legal matters, I think the Romans scripture says it all. 

I'm basing all that I've said here on scripture, not on some other person's viewpoint. God has preserved His word for us to be guided by.

And yes the GB are constantly changing scripture meanings, to suit their own purpose it seems. If it was guided by God through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit, i would have thought the GB would have got it right first time. Why would God want to confuse His followers ?  And please don't say it is to test our faith, our faith gets enough tests without needing contradiction in scripture from the GB.

Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore

For someone who honestly doesn't know anything, you certainly are sure that the answer to to DF the GB.

Once again a mis-quote. I didn't say that I 'honestly don't know anything', i said, 'I honestly don't know the truth about anything'.  There is a very big difference.

And as, In my opinion, the Governing Body are deliberately disobeying God, then yes, i do think they should be disfellowshipped. Many people have been disfellowshipped for much less. 

[TrueTomHarley]

27 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Once again a mis-quote. I didn't say that I 'honestly don't know anything', i said, 'I honestly don't know the truth about anything'.  There is a very big difference.

 

Forgive me for this. Is wasn't a mis-quote on my part, but it was deliberate. It somehow struck me as more appropriate. If you hurl about the outlandish things you hurl, and show yourself impervious to any counter-argument, you must expect feedback like this.

You demand commentary from me but you show no sign of listening to it. So I must get to it when I get to it, and it will not always be specifically in answer to you. I already have addressed several aspects, both here and on the other thread.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley @TrueTomHarley Quote 'If you hurl about the outlandish things you hurl...' Just because you disagree with my comments that does not make them 'outlandish'. It only means that you have a different opinion to me... What i do object to, is when you tell others what you consider my feelings and intentions are, but you try to make your opinions look like facts... 

And, i do not demand anything from you. I ask you genuine questions and you choose whether you answer them or not. 

It wasn't until today that i even knew there was another thread, as I would not have bothered with making one if I'd known. If i joined here through another thread then I'm sorry if my thread is very similar to the other one.... I would agree it gets boring and seems a bit pointless having multiple threads about the same subject.  As it is it's all getting tiresome and pointless. I've make my point and have listened to others, though you may say i haven't. And it is only time that will tell us the outcome. I would think that by the end of this year some new decisions would have been made within the JW Org regarding the 'rules' on dealing with Child Abuse. 

However, I've noticed that some people on one of the threads have said 'Bring it on' to the news about more investigations into Child Abuse within the JW Org. Perhaps those people should note that it was the JW Org themselves that objected to and tried to stop the investigations that have and are already taking place. And it was the JW Org or Governing Body in America that refused to hand over the documents to the Supreme court of California... So how can you have a proper enquiry / investigation when the information concerned is withheld ?  But full circle, back to the scripture in Romans about being obedient to the law of the land. 

And as @TrueTomHarley has said it's all been covered here really. It comes down to what you believe and who you want to serve. 

As for me I try to serve God through Jesus Christ, and i hope to find the true way of doing that as soon as possible.

[TrueTomHarley]

36 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

the news about more investigations

If there are to be other ARC type hearings, when all is said and done it will boil down into two camps:

Those who are primarily concerned with punishing it after it has happened, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket.

And those who are primarily concerned that it does not happen in the first place, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket.

It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well I think God made it clear how He dealt with the Nation of Israel when they turned their backs on Him. And i think God makes it clear through His word what he expects from His people. As for legal matters, I think the Romans scripture says it all. 

But then you have Paul and Peter in regards to Civil Disobedience (evident in scripture) should the laws of the land conflict with scripture and or serving God, in this case, of what is written by both of these people. Christians are obligated to respect authorities of such people, as Romans says, but in regards to Civil Disobedience, that too is written by the bible writers for a reason. Last I have checked, rarely did anyone change or ignored Romans 13, if anything, Civil Disobedience is broken down into several categories without going around as to what Romans says and or what Paul and Peter says, and what was on full display in the Hebrew Old Testament and or any of God's law and word found in scripture.

What we all can agree on is that God is seeing all that is unfolding in the world, even among his people, however, he knows the hearts of people and knows that people will try to do what is necessary to deal with the problem, even if it is among His people who worship him, in addition, not only we are imperfect, but we have Free-Will, and this gift, to some is seen as both a blessing and a curse, for an individual can use said free will to do good or to do bad, this was the case in the Old Testament with what people were doing with younger ones and how God reacted, even using his people to deal with the situation at hand - it is no different today.

That being said, Tom is correct on percentages though, for people do care about the statistics, this is the only reason why child abuse safety and prevention website even post such things to begin with as well as the countries and the like affected in regards to percentage values, all having vital information for the reader to look into and research for themselves.

In the end, targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God and contribute to the decline.

You also mentioned Facebook information, if you would provide I will look into it myself, as I do with a majority of denominations already.

So in short, Christians will obey authority and the laws, but should conflict rise, they will defend their faith in the best and worse situations for they will not change what is written for anyone, as God stated in Deuteronomy 4:2 and what Jesus stated in John 10:35 -  We must not add, change or remove from the word nor can we break or assume scripture can be broken (scripture cannot be broken), that being said, ARC has done a job well down on working with what rules and regulations the faith follows, even acknowledging of what these things are compared to others who make it into something that it is not, for we have to remember, of what is written and what is law in the bible, us as Christians must follow and adhere to.

 

[Space Merchant]

39 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,

Yeah, imperfect until the end times conclude and the Son makes his return. Child Abuse is a branch of other issues that cause anger and sadness, which is understandable by some, but people tend to take it a bit too far, but soon it will not be an issue.

Endurance is key, for maintaining salvation and faith may seem simple, but it is a really hard fight, Jude 3,  especially when the faults of others who do bad tends to be quite a problem.

A day will come when people will realize that fighting against something the wrong way, a cause, will reap a very negative effect. Something that is and will be evident and will affect every faith known to man in the US, including the JWs will the men in black starts closing churches, they have spoken about this before about closing any church they want back in the early 2000s.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley @Space Merchant The ARC was only one country. In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec was looking to proceed with a class action lawsuit in September 2017. I don't have any update on that. In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation has set up way for victims to contact them and it seems they have had 250 responcies... In the UK the Charity Commision has an ongoing investigation, which the JW Org tried to stop but did not succeed. The IICSA, it seems, will probably also do an investigation, although they seem to be very busy dealing with others at the moment.... Then we have the USA, but after the two (rather famous now) victims received big payouts I've no idea if the GB has to hand over the documents or not. What I'm saying here is, it's not all about the ARC.

I cannot understand the attitude of TTH, yes prevention is of course very important. But surely it would help in many ways to see how previous cases were handled. As I've experienced such things I know that the memories last a lifetime, so if it can be proved that the JW Org was negligent, then aren't victims due some sort of compensation ? And I'm not talking being paid millions to keep their mouth shut. 

Lessons could be learnt from past dealings to help stop future abuse. Rules could be changed within the Org to make it a safer place. 

SM, people may care about statistics, but I'm more concerned about what God cares about. I think you are coming at this from a different viewpoint. My thoughts are, if the JW org is really God's chosen organisation, then God wants it clean. God is not interested in a percentage, He wants clean. He wants, separate from the world, and a much much higher standard. So to compare to any other peoples is of no importance. It is only important to compare the JW Org to God's standards. How are the JW Org comparing to what God expects of them ? 

You said 'targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God... ' You see how you are coming at it from a different angle ?  I'm not targeting a group. I'm interested in seeing, what is supposed to be God's chosen people, try harder to serve God properly and clean up their Organisation, and help their brothers and sisters.

  

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The ARC was only one country. In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec was looking to proceed with a class action lawsuit in September 2017. I don't have any update on that. In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation has set up way for victims to contact them and it seems they have had 250 responcies... In the UK the Charity Commision has an ongoing investigation, which the JW Org tried to stop but did not succeed. The IICSA, it seems, will probably also do an investigation, although they seem to be very busy dealing with others at the moment.... Then we have the USA, but after the two (rather famous now) victims received big payouts I've no idea if the GB has to hand over the documents or not. What I'm saying here is, it's not all about the ARC.

Yes, for this is already known, but what I have mentioned other then ARC has to also be taken with high consideration also, for all children are at risk, not just child confined within a single group, and no one is immune to child abuse. Canada has a set of laws and regulations regarding Child Abuse within the very foundation of the Family Violence Laws, which derives from the Constitution Act, 1867, and to them, Child Abuse is considered as an epidemic, as some writers have stated and even within religion, the very place people assumes such does not happen, it is not safe there either at times should an abuser finds his or her way in said religion to reach children, or any institution that houses and or cares for children - all in all, child grooming and abuse can only be prevented by means of internal and outside investigation and the victim's family operation along with those who offered to help said victim.

As for the United Kingdom, Child Abuse runs rampant there also, especially from those who join any group of their choice to kidnap, rape and even kill children, just like one of the UK facilities that use to house children to where the abuse took place. The situation with the Charity Commission and JW charity only sparked investigation, which I believe went on for 2 and a half years, was due to claims and or allegations such as:

"The charity commission is investigating claims that Jehovah’s Witnesses abuse survivors were forced to face their attackers."

"The Charity Commission launched an inquiry into safeguarding at the religion’s main UK charity in May 2014 after receiving allegations that survivors of rape and sexual abuse, including people abused as children, were forced to face their attackers in “judicial committees”."

The JW church in question, as some of the articles have brought up was the one located in Manchester New Moston, the press release on the investigation can be found, but I will link an example of said press release info: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/investigation-leads-to-improvements-in-safeguarding-at-jehovahs-witnesses-charity

That being said, the Charity Commission focus was the JW church and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain by a senior member.

The JWs have also acknowledged that they “abhor child abuse, and view it as a heinous crime and sin. The safety of our children is of the utmost importance.”

They added: “Whether the victim or parents decide to report the matter is not contingent on the number of witnesses to the offence or whether a confession has been made. Congregation elders do not shield abusers from the authorities or from the consequences of their actions.“

But yeah, I know how you feel about Child Abuse, just know that regardless of the person, there will be those who will do what is necessary to protect a child, and help a child should they become victim and do so to the best of their ability, but as we speak, there is and will be probe investigations on everyone, every faith to root out Child Abuse, it cannot be stopped entirely, but saving and or helping at least a child or two is progress, what will prove far difficult for UK is the Underground and more dark and far more violent forms of Child Abuse, which involves authorities and government, excluding religion, educational institutions, etc.

Oh and yes, I am familiar with Reclaimed Voices and admire their work, but more can be done for all children, which most child neglect and safety groups tend to ignore at times, for some it is understandable to avoid threats, injury and or death. Other then that, Netherlands is not really a fan of religion anyways.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I cannot understand the attitude of TTH, yes prevention is of course very important. But surely it would help in many ways to see how previous cases were handled. As I've experienced such things I know that the memories last a lifetime, so if it can be proved that the JW Org was negligent, then aren't victims due some sort of compensation ? And I'm not talking being paid millions to keep their mouth shut. 

Not all JW churches are the same, just like not every Mosque and or Cathedral is the same. In the end, it usually depends on the people of the church, the leaders of that specific church and how much of chemistry the church leaders and the people have with each other, I do not want to bring up the race card and culture card, but it seems this is the case with who is doing the abuse. But yes, usually depends though, for one church can show support to victims while others, not so much.

All in all, how things are handled, perhaps far better than how it was done in the past whereas we didn't have twice as many of support from people and a network to spread information faster and more fluently.

But in the end, educating someone and or a group is key to combating child abuse the best way possible.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Lessons could be learnt from past dealings to help stop future abuse. Rules could be changed within the Org to make it a safer place. 

True, but then you have religious laws. What can be done is working with what is already present if scripture prevents one from changing whatever rules they have. No one is going to break scripture sadly, so the best course of action, which was said time and time again by a lot of people, is work with what is already there and do something to make things better - the only issue is JWs will have to be educated and better clarify what some rules and scriptures they are under to those taking the lead of a church.

For if God said not to add, change or remove from his word and Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken you have to take that into consideration - for it is said anyone who holds the bible and what it says to a very high regard basically accepted a Nazareth Vow right then and there, and such can't really be broken by any man unless it comes to a conclusion - that is, when Jesus returns.

The goal would be is taking the rules itself and working with it to lessen child abuse situations as well as identifying abusers.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM, people may care about statistics, but I'm more concerned about what God cares about. I think you are coming at this from a different viewpoint. My thoughts are, if the JW org is really God's chosen organisation, then God wants it clean. God is not interested in a percentage, He wants clean. He wants, separate from the world, and a much much higher standard. So to compare to any other peoples is of no importance. It is only important to compare the JW Org to God's standards. How are the JW Org comparing to what God expects of them ? 

No, I do not have a different point of view, the people care for both, and it is evident through anything regarding Child Safety and Neglect Prevention by those who adhere to it and what is talked about to young ones in youth clubs that are affiliated with various networks that dealing with child abuse, in my case, as a religious person and a close friend to the community of mind, who has spoken to children who deal with different issues, as well as child abuse whereas the category is violence.

Yes, God wants his people to be clean for the one True God we worship, is clean, pure, and holy, Leviticus 11:44, 45. At the same time, he is aware of human imperfection from Adam and Eve's disobedience and onward, even among his own people, present day his people are still imperfect and it is not easy for them to be clean because converts and newcomers, some with ill intent cannot be detected so easily, but God already knows the intentions and the heart of said person, for the bible says so of God need not care about the individual, he cares for what he sees in the person's heart.

We know this because God is the one who granted us the gift of free will, the freedom and ability to make choice (Joshua 24:15), and he knows our hearts, regarding to what I had said previously, we see this example in the Old Testament, 1 Samuel 16:7 which reads:

But the Lord [YHWH] said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord [YHWH] sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord [YHWH] looks on the heart.” - ESV

That verse is easily connected and compared to 1 Kings 8:39, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Psalms 7:9, Proverbs 24:12, Jeremiah 17:10 and Acts 1:24.

The Jehovah's Witnesses and other organizations, including the non-religious ones are not clean, and it is impossible for any of them to be clean because of imperfections and abuse of free will by some, to which it ends up affecting others, however, it does not stop those who at least try to do something to minimize and prevent a situation from happening and or attempting to deal with the aftermath of whatever it is they are focused on and it is not an easy task for them, you, me or everyone here. Another issue is not trying to break scripture which is technically a Nazareth/Nazarite Vow (something that can't be broken if set in motion) based on Numbers 6:1–21 and several parts of the Old Testament into the Greek New Testament, for they, as others will not subject themselves to compared to the mainstream Christians who drop scripture and what is written in order to gain new converts.

Child Abuse in this case can only be minimized and or prevented by them, and they will their best to try and resolve it, like I said, at least saving a child or two from an abuser is a good thing, for the unfortunate sad reality is no matter where it takes place, you can't save all children, the very reason why Child Abuse is consider a global epidemic to begin with, in some cases, people tend to be subtle when trying to find evidence and or key information regarding child abuse because it can lead to many problems where someone's blood will literal be paid, and for pacifist, Christian ones, wouldn't want to go down the route.

No organization is clean, just so we are clear and the JWs, just like everyone else is subjected to the impurities that imperfect ones bring into the group.

What can be said however, they are somewhat inexperienced in dealing with abusers among them, but clearly not among the worse that are not really talked about in the media, nor talked about by any Child Abuse Prevention groups.

As with everyone else, it is just time and patience of improvement that is needed, as well as better training and educating church leaders on the issue. I said this before, education on the issue is key, if others can educate people about child abuse and working with them on their turf to try and increase prevention, you can do this too. I speak to children within my family and friends inner circle for a reason, as do those within the community of those who share the same belief, culture and or background as me, in addition, you have to take into account how such person(s) are, for people tend to help out without fully getting involved, something I have said time and time again, and this was heavily mention for decades by Child Abuse articles, information and PSAs.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You said 'targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God... ' You see how you are coming at it from a different angle ?  I'm not targeting a group. I'm interested in seeing, what is supposed to be God's chosen people, try harder to serve God properly and clean up their Organisation, and help their brothers and sisters.

It is not a different angle, this is indeed 100% true, which should be evident to you and if need be I know a dozen of articles and news information, in addition to personal experience of mine and others. I have been around and know from experience of such things, as do other Christians who are vigilant and serious. I had seen the JWs and other groups being targeted solely on the same subject (like here), which will result in others chiming in and will attack the whole faith itself, for instance, the Charity Commission regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, the response from some was not to criticize the Jehovah's Witnesses on child abuse, it was comments targeting and insulting God the Father (the things they say of his name deemed too explicit), the Bible, and Christians as a whole, both mainstream and minorities, regardless of doctrine and theology.

Some go as far as to make articles for people to read online that insult God the Father and his Son, others have said that the Father had failed and his Son had failed due to the Child Abuse epidemic among religion and to this day, they continue to mock religion, more specifically, Christianity. Eventually it will come to a point, regardless of your faith, the Bible will be attacked, especially regarding of what took place in the Hebrew Old Testament involving Moses and the like, the list goes on, one of the more recent ones today being that the teaching of God should be considered a form of Child Abuse and will reference the whole Jesus camp situation regarding the children. If I am not mistaken, there was videos of JW publications and a large number of Bibles burned purposely by opponents.

But there are people (religious and non religious) who are not like this and are dong things the smart way, on both sides of the spectrum they're aware of Child Abuse in religion, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, they know of statistics and prevention rates, such persons will focus on the problem at hand instead of targeting and or condemning a faith because they were caught off guard by the abuse, they know that some denominations will not just sit back and do literally nothing, in this case, some claim that JWs do not do nothing, which is false, for they make an attempt and do so while trying to not break scripture. As for JW opponents, not once have they brought up anything regarding Child Abuse outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is evident, but ironically, it had to take an Ex-Bible Student, a Graphic Designer, and believe it or not, a Homosexual, to correct JW opponents, who attacked these persons, one of the attackers being the very man you linked here before via gofundme.

But what you can do, and everyone else here is just educate the people to see the signs of child abuse, I said something about that before,a s well as identifying a child who has been abuse, their body language and or if they are keeping what happen a secret, for most of the time they do not reveal such information to even their parents but to someone they trust - and the key role in Child Abuse Prevention taught to a child if they tell an adult and not much is done, tell another, and another, that is what the PSAs teach, and that is what people who know these things teach the children, so even a child can be able to identify anyone their age who has been abused and or recognize the actions of an abuser, in some cases the far more difficult ones to deal with which can be a near miss at times is child on child abuse, which is very rare in a religious space, majority of the time takes place in schools and the very household the victim is in be it a family member and or friend around the same age.

In the end, Jehovah's Witnesses, will be subjected to allegations, investigations and the like, spiritually the organization is indeed clean, hence why people are still converting to it, but the people are still imperfect, God knows that as well as the Free Will granted to all of mankind, and he knows people who at least try. Another thing to add is you also have to remember Child Abuse is not always something people want to talk about, mainly if you run up to them and immediately speak on this matter - the best course of action is to just get on their level, know the individual even then talk about the issue when it is comfortable to speak on such.

As the 3 individuals have stated prior JW opponents manage to get their videos removed, there are better ways of fighting the problem, better ways of fighting Child Abuse.

Lastly, just pay attention to some claims people make, for last I check Jehovah's Witnesses do not have firearms and guns under every one of their churches nor do they own preschools and private schools, a debate I had with 2 women, one who spoke on guns the other on preschool child abuse by JWs, when the reality is, they do not own or contribute to any of such things for JWs sole purpose, the purpose of an organized religion is adhering to the Great Commission.

Know that I respect your resolve, but it is necessary to be aware of everything and dealing with the problem itself, and not the group as a whole, for we are to condemn, we may as well condemn, everything else around us. When the end times and tribulations conclude, peace will be among all people even among the JWs and we will not have to worry about Child Abuse, nor the life that we had when we were imperfect.

Just endure, and should you educate someone, a JW even, on child abuse and or the signs, be on their level and be mild with them in doing so for attacking one's faith an or its leaders will not help anyone for it is better to speak with someone when teaching vital information to them, for I can already see the issue of child abuse is what angers you, it angers me too, but I know from my battle scars and of the scars of others on how to deal with such issue and waking up to the reality of it in today's day and age.

If we can teach a child about puberty, about stranger danger and the like, we can teach them about child abuse. If we can teach an adult to be a good employee, a good family man and or woman, we can teach them on child abuse also.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

The thought just occurred to me, that is we as Jehovah's Witnesses become tired of waiting on the Governing Body to straighten out this problem, AND hold those accountable, we can do it OURSELVES.

Report EVERYTHING to the police ... and let them sort it out.

Apparently THEIR system of Truth and Justice works better than ours!

Not perfect ..... just better.