607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, allensmith28 said:

I will sacrifice my number 28 by saying, between you and Anna, I have had my account BANNED.

Don't worry about it, Alan. There are many more numbers. Why - they go all the way up to 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000!

I actually thought the @The Librarian's explanation of your ban was also a veiled rebuke to me, for she was annoyed that I had unnecessarily drawn some blowhard into the thread so as to demolish his schpiel. I decided to lay low for awhile. One can be caught up too much into things.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

38 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

I know what's what when it comes to people hating me

I do not think ANYBODY hates you AllenSmitn (n) ... it's just that you are just too combustible, and trigger a "flight or fight" reflex. !

They are NOT going to flee, and they don't want to fight.

When conversation on the phone turns rabid, I have this button on my cell phone that avoids having to do either ...

As I was writing this someone called me wanting to sell me affordable group rate health insurance. I said that was all taken care of, and he kept right on talking.

I pushed the button.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... be thankful dueling is no longer in fashion ....

[TrueTomHarley]

39 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Honestly, I have absolutely no idea why I  was 'disciplined' , but it's so much better than topix, even with all the thespianics?

GASP! Not you, too??! It wasn't because you made light of anyone, was it? hehehehe :))))))

25 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

LOL! It just doesn’t do anything to get my old mustache back, by unblocking my account!!

yeah, Alan is a bit of a hothead at times - no one would dispute that. But when he is on, he is on, and his input is both unique and valuable.

I can join he and Nana to form a WNM Trinity for the infamous thread I was put in charge of where I was apparently expected to play nice with apostates and declined to do it and so the whole thread disappeared.

Having said this, and as much as I rib @The Librarian (the old hen), she has a tough job, I think does she the best she can.  I would vacate - as I did on one other site - if people here were as steadfastly nasty as they were there. She prevents that from happening, so if I have to take a shot now and again, I'll go along with her wishes until I can't - and I doubt that situation will arise.

I think a lot of ones here are unstable, and a few are downright crazy. I do not exclude myself from this statement - I am not without issues. They must be cut some slack. But to carry on too much about rebukes given is to be the same as those who bitch endlessly about the GB. Somebody has to drive. She has earned her seat. It is not for me to change her, but to go elsewhere if we absolutely can't get along. That is why I try to get along.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 minute ago, Nana Fofana said:

I sort of came away with the impression I wasn't allowed to make light of "Goodfellas" or maybe Warren Beatty?  

I haven't had the pleasure of meeting those two, yet.

[Witness]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:16 PM, Arauna said:

Jesus did not come back in the flesh and ‘live’ amongst the people on earth did he?   He came back for only 50 days before he went back to his father.

You aren't putting a time limit on Christ's abilities, are you?

“Again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him.”  Heb 1:6

Approximately 2,000 years ago, God established His “organization” through His Son.  It is the chosen Body of Christ. 

So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

¹⁹ Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

²⁰ Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

²¹ But He was speaking of the temple of His body. ²² Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.  John 2:18-22

Before this, the early temples and the tabernacle under Moses, were built in great detail – in an organized way -  following God’s decrees on how they were built and how worship was to be given to Him.  We have the records of this in the Bible.  It was an “organized” worship.  The pattern followed was already layed out –

“For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. ⁴ For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; ⁵ who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”   Heb 8:3-5

The early temple arrangement was abolished with the appearance of Christ, although the majority refused to accept it. Acts 7:48-51  His Body replaced this arrangement – an organized arrangement that is reaching its fulfillment and will be seen through the existence of the “144,000” both in heavenly form and in human form, in the Kingdom of God. Rom 12:4-8;  This is Zion – the Temple of God, built on the foundation of Christ’s body and faithful, sealed, “living stones”.  Acts 7:49; Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20-22

Around a hundred years ago, another “arrangement” began developing; a counterfeit.  Slowly it has come about, yet, also rather quickly compared to 2,000 years for each faithful “living stone” to be placed eternally in Zion. 1 Pet 2:5,9 The counterfeit has morphed into the perceived epitome of salvation.  Zion has always been the dwelling of God. Since Christ, that dwelling has not left Christ’s “Body” – his anointed priesthood.  It has not transformed into an earthly organization with its own “arrangement”.  It has remained the same as God established it; in Christ, who is its foundation along with the apostles.  1 Cor 3:11; Eph 2:20

Within this relatively new counterfeit, are sub counterfeits of the true arrangement by God. 

·       The Body of Elders replacing the Body of Christ – the anointed ones. Ezek 44:7-9; Matt 24:15

·       Salvation through an “image” – the organization, and calling it “Zion”; replacing salvation through the true Zion – God’s Temple within the Body of Christ and he as its Head.  Rev 13:14,15

·       Although the organization calls Christ its Head; obedience is given to all direction of the GB; thus, they have taken the place of Christ.  The anointed Body must obey a counterfeit head before obeying Christ, who is their true and only HEAD. You hear/see the governing body, making easy to do what they say.  It requires faith and a willing heart to “hear”/”see” the direction of Holy Spirit from Christ.  Matt 24:4,5; Luke 22:24-27; Rev 3:18

·       Looking toward physical signs as fulfillment of scripture, replacing the spiritual signs coming against God’s chosen “kings”, made evident with the blessing of Holy Spirit.  It is the contrast that Satan’s earthly realm will bring about Armageddon, compared to the “heavenly” war already raging, which takes spiritual discernment.  Luke 11:29; Eph 6:12; Col 2:8

·       God’s “witnesses” defined as all JWs, replacing the true witnesses of his spiritual nation, “Israel”.  That definition began in truth, but has now been tossed aside. Isa 43:10; 44:8; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Rev 11:1-3                                                                                                

·       The dwelling of God’s Spirit taught to be the organization, (spirit-directed) replacing His true dwelling found in the hearts of the anointed ones. Rev 13:11,12,14,15

·       The “good news” preached as Christ ruling only since 1914 and a peaceful “thousand years” to follow after Armageddon; counteracting the “good news” of the redemption of spiritual “Israel” and Christ’s rule as beginning once he ascended, which was the true beginning of the “Thousand Year Reign of Christ”. Jer 31:22,23,21; Matt 10:23; Rev 1:11; Isa 43:1; Ps 110:1,2; Dan 7:25

·       The “short period of time” of Satan’s deceit as coming twice; both during the great tribulation, and after an assumed “thousand years” of peace (when he is released for a “little while”)  Do you remember anywhere in scripture where Satan has two ‘little whiles’/’short periods of time’ to mislead God’s people? There is only one, and it is now; present as his counterfeit production of “truth”.  2 Thess 2:5-9; Rev 20:1-3; 9:1-6; 12:12

·       The presence of both a true “wicked slave” and a true “faithful and discreet slave” during the time of the end.  Matt 24:48-51 Which would be easier to accept as the FDS slave, one boasting that he is so, or one supplying “proper food at the proper time” as a despised one, already tossed out by a “wicked slave”, wicked “steward” over God’s household of anointed ones?  Luke 16:11-13; 1 Cor 1:28

Within a century, this counterfeit arrangement has magnified itself as “the truth”.  God’s Word tells us that Christ is “the Truth”. One is a delusion, one is authentic. Jesus always has been “the Truth”, and made this known when he came to earth. John 1:1-5   The delusion of 2 Thess 2:9-12 was fabricated to come against the anointed ones -to “trample” God’s spiritual Temple, and it has been fulfilled within the Watchtower.  The Body of Elders “sits” in God’s Temple, standing “over” the anointed ones. 

Satan has been successful producing a most convincing lie – called “the truth”.  All of it, is approximately a one hundred year old…delusion.  Isa 41:28,29  The organization repeatedly returns to the time of the early temple arrangement to justify its “organization” and its many building endeavors. They repeatedly lead you back to Moses’ day, dismissing God’s own arrangement through Christ.  The GB has taken “Moses’ seat”, forgetting that is Christ’s place now.  Matt 23:1-6

All counterfeits created through the organization are to mislead the anointed ones.  God’s Kingdom is soon to come, and Satan knows this.  He knows his kingdom will be destroyed, since he has been battling against Christ’s seed with his own his seed, at the point God predicted it; and which culminates in Armageddon before his end. Gen 3:15  So why not make the best of it and create a fake Zion/”mountain-like organization” to mislead and destroy the last unsealed priestly kings with him?  This is the true battle of Armageddon.   Rev 20:7-10

Mount Zion is “Daughter Zion” – the holy people, where the spirit of God dwells within their hearts.  It isn’t an organization created by men.  It never has been.  Fallen anointed ones, used by Satan, have been instrumental in creating this delusion. Impossible?  God’s chosen ones have been known to be corrupted by power and riches over the centuries.  Rev 8:10,11; 9:1,2 

“The law will go out of Zion”. Isa 2:3  How?  Through the “dwelling of God” who are the new creation, bringing God’s decrees and guidance from heaven to earth.  They carry the “law written on the heart”, and they will carry it from “heaven” to earth where God’s children will reside.   

“Many nations shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, (God’s Temple found within the “144,000”) To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”  Micah 4:2

When you read Rev 21:1-4, how do you suppose God will “dwell” among the people, if not through “New Jerusalem”, the Bride coming down from heaven. 

I hope you can see this.  It is not a hit or miss guidance through a counterfeit body of elders, that as you say “does a pretty good job”. 

Thank you so much for your scriptures. 

In reference to your scriptures,

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. ⁵¹ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— ⁵² in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ⁵³ For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. ⁵⁴ So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Cor 15:50-54

After the second resurrection, won’t God’s children who are mortal, gain “immortality”?  Won’t all lose their corrupted bodies?  The “change” of the anointed ones is the “new creation” that will be fully complete, in a “twinkling of an eye”.   When in spirit, they are in “heaven” – not “flesh and blood”.  When on the earth, they will be immortal. 

Can you see from your use of Heb 12:22,(23) and Phil 3:20 that heaven is a spiritual state once reached, where one’s name will be written in heaven?  Luke 10:20

Eph 2:6 -  “He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus”

  Were the writers in heaven when they wrote those verses?  No.  Anointed ones who have been tried and found faithful, can be sealed while still on the earth. 1 Pet 1:23; James 1:18; 1 Pet 1:3; 1 John 3:9

The following scriptures are from the other topic I linked to in my previous comment.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!”   2 Cor 5:17  Gal 6:15

A “new creation” of both human and angel.

 “sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.  So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; like the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.”  1 Cor 15:44-49

 

 “Don't you yourselves know that you are God's temple and that the Spirit of God lives in you?” 1 Cor 3:16

The 144,000 are the Bride of Christ/Temple/Holy City – which comes down from heaven.

Now, if the Bride is in Christ and Christ is in God through Holy Spirit, (John 17:22) and the “Holy City” is God’s Temple, how is the “Holy City” going to come down from heaven without the Bride and Christ?  It isn’t a literal building, but is the Holy Spirit within the new creation/Temple.  How will God “dwell” among mankind if not through his Temple?  Rev 3:12

 “Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.   ”  Rev 21:2,3

Can you see it?  Can you see this ‘mobile’ Temple in the sealed anointed ones?  

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.”  1 Cor 3:9

“And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”  Rev 5:0

“Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

“Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. ¹¹ So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. ¹² Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.  Gen 28:10-12

“And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”  John 1:51

There is no descending in heaven, is there?  Where would Jesus be descending to with his angels/messengers (Mal 2:7), if not to earth?

Jesus received two “births”, one of flesh, one from God.  So, too, do those within his Body.  John 3:6; Col 2:9  He is the Son of Man, and the Son of God. Matt 12:8; Mark 8:29; 9:7

Jesus inherits the earth; he shares it firstly, with the “firstborn” and then the rest of God’s children. Gen 28:12-14; Ps 37:11,29  If the earth is Christ’s inheritance, should he not be allowed to enjoy it and walk among what he created with God?

"Heaven must receive him until the time of the restoration of all things, which God spoke about through his holy prophets from the beginning.”  Acts 3:21

“Again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him.”  Heb 1:6

 

[Foreigner]

Playing the Jesus card! He did. What did it get him other than killed by God’s own creation…Then the Jewish nation was still under the influence of the GENTILES as their benefactors to their evil deeds by rejecting the Messiah and getting him killed to heighten their own personal religious agenda, away from God’s spoken words.

[AlanF]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

AlanF, I think that you will be asked to avoid the kind of insulting language and imagery. I am sure that other forums have allowed an escalation of this type to reach greater heights/depths of such. One of the things that has made this particular forum more palatable, according to several people here, myself included, is the fact that all perspectives have been able to come together WITHOUT these rough edges.

 

Fair enough. I will abide by these guidelines.

I will not be responding to pathological liars, though.

AlanF

[AlanF]

On 1/7/2018 at 8:16 AM, allensmith28 said:

Therefore, if the “elements” of thought are there? It makes NO difference which Bible one uses to arrive, to the same conclusion.

Quite right. But in many cases these "elements" are not there, or the words don't translate well from one language to the other, or there might not even be equivalent words, so using an accurate translation becomes crucial to good understanding.

AlanF

[AlanF]

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Actually, the Watchtower had already given away the answer, back in 1983, which shows clearly that AlanF is correct, as was Ann, Carl Jonsson, and many others:

Right. But we'll never see a pathological liar admit to this.

AlanF

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, allensmith28 said:

But, back to topic: 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported? Yes!! It has been proven by secular chronology it’s a justifiable means to the symbolic time of the Gentiles. COJ’s treatise was flawed from the get-go. James Penton fared no better.

Thanks for moving back to the topic. Those are bold assertions. I have not read James Penton on this topic, so I can't speak to it, but I have read COJ. Maybe not the whole book, but I've read about 100 pages and skimmed about 200 more. I had already noticed that the Watchtower's chronology is based on pseudo-archaeology, without COJ's help, but that wasn't the problem. I had taken an much bigger interest from the perspective of the Biblical evidence alone.

Also, I know that every time you have ever made a general claim that his treatise was "flawed" I notice that you never had any specific points that proved this.

Also, you should say what you mean by the fact that 607 B.C.E. is Biblically supported. In the first few posts of this topic, I explained what I meant by that question. You have suggested that 607 could be significant, but that you do not necessarily agree that the event in 607 is the same event that the Watchtower describes for that year. I think you give it pretty much the same significance however. 

I have mentioned before that I also think that 607 is very close (within two or three years) of a Biblically supported event, the start of the 70 years. This year must be very close to the start of the 70 years for Babylon's greatest domination, according to the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book, and which fits the prophecy of Jeremiah 25 (as also quoted in the same "Isaiah" book.) The only problem is the fact that the secular 607 date is closer to Nabopolassar's 19th year and not Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year, which are about 20 years apart. Of course, you have already pointed this out, and have suggested that the similarity of the names and a potential confusion between the two names resulted in the Bible's use of the term Nebuchadnezzar when the Bible could have meant the same person we speak of as Nabopolassar. This is a theory that is based on a very thin and murky foundation. You have made use of errors found in 19th century works, errors in the pseudo-chronology of the book of Judith, and the possible confusion between the two names as your best evidence so far. There is also the "coincidence" of the 18th/19th year that you have brought up.

If I understand you correctly, you have also proposed a possible theory that the actual "destruction" of Jerusalem should be moved back another 11 or so years before the Jerusalem event that the Bible describes in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th/19th year. I don't know if you have been as clear about this theory, or perhaps it was just me. It appeared that you were focusing on what secular historians date to about 598.

[AlanF]

allensmith28 wrote:

Quote

... Even, by their own secular chronology of 539BC, it has already been deduced, since Cyrus entered Babylon in “late” 539BC, ... So, the most probable date of Cyrus edict was in (Nisannu) ... Also, acceptable would be a period of 6 months, “researchers” like *JEFFRO* a person that “repudiates” the WT chronology, wholeheartedly has concluded. That would mean the Jews returned in time for the Sesame harvest, (Tasritu) 538BC with enough time to settle in, and prepare to rebuild the temple by Nisan 537BC...

Correct. This is the argument I've been presenting.

Note that the Jews used a secular calendar beginning with the seventh month Tishri (Sep/Oct), and a religious calendar beginning with the first month Nisan (Mar/Apr). The Babylonian calendar began in Nisan.

Keep in mind that Cyrus' army overthrew Babylon in early October, 539 BCE. From that point to Nisan (late March), 538 BCE is nearly six lunar months (cf. "Babylonian Chronology 626 B.C. - A.D. 75", Parker & Dubberstein, p. 29). During that time, all captives in Babylon would have known about Cyrus' practice of releasing captives, and so would have anticipated being released fairly soon. So if Cyrus issued his edict of release in Nisan, there would have been up to nearly six lunar months for the captives to prepare to go home -- plenty of time.

Once the edict of release was in force, there were another nearly six lunar months, until the beginning of Tishri (mid-September), for the Jews to travel to Judah and become settled in their cities. The journey was about four months, leaving nearly two months for preparation and settling in. So there is plenty of time for the Jews to be "in their cities" by Tishri, 538 BCE.

Quote

However, I’m more inclined to think the Jews took a little more time to leave. This, of course, comes from EZRA’s 1 account.

That's perfectly acceptable, and in view of my arguments above, both 537 and 538 are possible dates -- as long as no other information is available. However, a statement by Josephus provides the tie breaker.

In Against Apion I,21, Josephus states:

<< These accounts agree with the true histories in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus its foundations were laid, and it was finished again in the second year of Darius. >>

The crucial piece of information is that the temple foundations were laid in the second regnal year of Cyrus. That year began in Nisan, 537 BCE.

How does that date relate to Ezra's account? I'll use your page from Nelson's Old Testament Survey for reference:

https://s3.dualstack.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/theworldnewsmediabucket/monthly_2018_01/537BC.jpg.ce79628dbd644fcd2f1dc1b9f9f15168.jpg

Ezra 1 states that Cyrus, in his first year (using the accession-year system), decreed that the Jews could return to Judah. Cyrus’ first year was Nisan, 538 BCE through Adar, 537 BCE. Ezra 3:1-7 states that by the seventh month Tishri, the Jews were settled in their cities, and at that time they gathered in Jerusalem to initiate the rebuilding of the temple. So the year that ended immediately before Tishri was the first year of the Jews’ coming home, and the new year beginning in Tishri was the second year.

Ezra 3:8, 10 states that the temple foundations were laid in the second month of that second year. In Against Apion I,21, Josephus states that “in the second year of the reign of Cyrus [the temple’s] foundations were laid.” Therefore, this second Jewish year overlaps with the second year of Cyrus. Since Cyrus’ second year began in Nisan, 537 BCE, the second month was also in 537, and the first year of the Jews’ return was in 538 BCE.

In summary, the synchronism between Josephus and the book of Ezra is solid evidence that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE. Both refer to the laying of the temple foundations about half a year after the Jews were settled in their cities in the month of Tishri (autumn). Ezra gives only a relative date in Jewish terms, while Josephus gives a date in terms of the years of Cyrus’ reign, which is solidly established. This date is in the spring of 537 BCE; hence the Jews must have returned half a year earlier, in the autumn of 538. See https://ad1914.com/category/alan-feuerbacher/ for an extended discussion.

AlanF