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607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?


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22 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

From personal experience I know that this date is often mentioned to corroborate or invalidate an alleged calculation of the "seven times" of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. If this is the final purpose of this discussion, then I believe that there are much more important questions.

I would completely agree. The only reason that the WTS ever required the dates 606 and 536, was so that the Nebuchadnezzar's "seven times" of insanity could reach 1914. Those dates were later adjusted to 606+1 year, and 536+3years-2years so that 1914 could still be reached. There has never been any evidence for 606 or 607, so it had to be done through "pseudo-archaeology," pretending that all the evidence for 539 (which we liked) could be used separately from the rest of the evidence that 539 was based upon (which we didn't like).

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Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"

This is where Freedom and sanity, and peace come from .... when you disregard people who have proved they have no credibility whatsoever ... and STOP BEING AFRAID OF DYING.  Every living thing th

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18 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The facts are that Raymond Franz had already carried out research in WT Chronology and this published in the Aid book 1969, 1971, later Carl Jonsson in Sweden conducted his own independent research and submitted his treatise to Brooklyn in 1977. Long before this,  Max Hatton in Australia conducted his own research during the sixties and was probably influenced by the research of a G. Rogerson in Australia who produced a treatise on the subject of some 60 pages. It would seem that the  first or earliest criticisms of WT Chronology originated in Australia influenced by at that time scholarly research beginning in the forties carried out by the Seventh Day Adventist Church.scholars.in the USA.

Scholar JW

I believe we can start the criticism of time chronology just a little earlier than Max Hatton with AARON NYMAN. I can also see where others doing research would come across such evidence to attempt to disprove the WT Chronology.

THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS AND THE CHRONOLOGY OF PASTOR C. T. RUSSELL IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORY AND BIBLE KNOWLEDGE

Those who have written on this subject have begun their calculations at various times: B. C. 536, 519, 457, 454 and 444.The Adventists say that it is "one" message, thereby meaning that the beginning can be anywhere between B. C. 536 and 444. There is a difference of 92 years between 536 and 444. The word of the Lord says that the seventy weeks shall begin at the time the commandment of the restoration of Jerusalem went forth, not from those "times." The time of the angel cannot be counted from more than one starting point. Therefore only one can be right of those who have started from five various points.

But, you are correct. Rodger C. Young fairs no better with bible understanding than those other critics of the WT Chronology.

As we can read, even encyclopedia’s like Britannica is vague in its interpretation of events with this “the forced detention of Jews in Babylonia following the latter’s conquest” Are they referring to the first encounter King Jehoiakim’s of Judah had with Nebuchadnezzar? Even if the stipulation was with the secular chronology of 605 BC, the WT chronology would only be off 2 years. If the same stipulation is made to the end of the desolation period, then the WT chronology would be off 1 year. A total of 3 years by secular reckoning.

As in everything. It boils down to interpretation. Those 3 years can be explained. Even if we use Furuli’s account that Nebuchadnezzar reign started in 625 BC? It has certain attainable elements through past writings.

Babylonian Exile, also called Babylonian Captivity, the forced detention of Jews in Babylonia following the latter’s conquest of the kingdom of Judah in 598/7 and 587/6 bce. The exile formally ended in 538 bce, when the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine. Historians agree that several deportations took place (each the result of uprisings in Palestine), that not all Jews were forced to leave their homeland, that returning Jews left Babylonia at various times, and that some Jews chose to remain in Babylonia—thus constituting the first of numerous Jewish communities living permanently in the Diaspora.

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There are a few other related subjects to the 607 date that we should not ignore. One is that the synchronisms  with Egyptian chronology create no conflict when tied to Assyrian and Babylonian chronology and true, sensible "Bible chronology." Yet when tied to the changes that the Watchtower Society has made to so-called "Bible chronology" in order for 1914 to work, not surprisingly, the synchronisms are all out of joint again. 

Here's a quick example:

  • (2 Kings 23:31-24:1) . . .Je·hoʹa·haz was 23 years old when he became king, and he reigned for three months in Jerusalem.. . .  33 Pharʹaoh Neʹchoh imprisoned him at Ribʹlah in the land of Haʹmath, to keep him from reigning in Jerusalem, and then imposed on the land a fine of 100 silver talents and a gold talent. 34 Furthermore, Pharʹaoh Neʹchoh made Jo·siʹah’s son E·liʹa·kim king in place of his father Jo·siʹah and changed his name to Je·hoiʹa·kim; but he took Je·hoʹa·haz and brought him to Egypt, where he eventually died. 35 Je·hoiʹa·kim gave the silver and the gold to Pharʹaoh, but he had to tax the land to give the silver that Pharʹaoh demanded. He exacted an assessed amount of silver and gold from each of the people of the land to give to Pharʹaoh Neʹchoh. 36 Je·hoiʹa·kim was 25 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 11 years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Ze·biʹdah the daughter of Pe·daiʹah from Ruʹmah. 37 He continued to do what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, according to all that his forefathers had done. 24 In Je·hoiʹa·kim’s days King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came against him, and Je·hoiʹa·kim became his servant for three years. . . .

Pharaoh Nechoh can only be Pharaoh Necho II who reigned from 610 to 595 BC between the reigns of Necho I (672-664) Psamtik I (664-610) and Psamtik II (595-589) all from Egypt's 26th dynasty. (Psamtik is Psammetichus, below)

The work "The Present State of Egyptian Chronology" by William A Ward says the following, related to the chronology of the 26th dynasty:

  • The chronology of the New Kingdom has the advantage of much more Egyptian documentation, clear historical synchronisms with Western Asia, and it can be attached almost directly to the better established absolute chronology of the first millennium B.C.E. . . . For the New Kingdom, chronologists usually begin with the more verifiable dates of the late period. Psammetichus I, founder of the 26th Dy nasty, began his reign in 664 B.C.E.; Taharqa, last ruler of the 25th Dynasty, ruled from 690 to 664 B.C.E.; . . . These dates are well nigh universally accepted and can all be ascertained by synchronisms with Assyrian kings, . . .

So, if it is correct that Egyptian chronology syncs with Assyrian/Neo-Babylonian chronology, then Pharoah Necho ruled from 610 to 595. We know from the Bible that he made Jehoiakim the king, who ruled for 11 years in Jerusalem, then Jehoiakim must have ruled starting in 599. (This was at least 10 years before the final destruction of Jerusalem. So we already know that 607 is wrong by almost 20 years.)

Then we know that Jehoiachin reigned next for 3 months before the Nebuchadnezzar desolated the city in the 8th year of his reign:

  • (2 Kings 24:8-12) 8 Je·hoiʹa·chin was 18 years old when he became king, and he reigned for three months in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Ne·hushʹta the daughter of El·naʹthan of Jerusalem. 9 He continued to do what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, according to all that his father had done. 10 During that time the servants of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city came under siege. 11 King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to the city while his servants were laying siege to it. 12 King Je·hoiʹa·chin of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, along with his mother, his servants, his princes, and his court officials; and the king of Babylon took him captive in the eighth year of his reign.

So from the reference to Necho we can see that the "deportation to Babylon" (Matthew 1:11) took place between 599 (599 at the earliest and 584 at the latest). If Nebuchadnezzar's first year was 605 BCE, then by the reckoning of years in 2 Kings, his 8th year would be about 597. 597 is a perfect fit for the reign of Necho II who ruled from 610 to 595. It's also a perfect fit to the Babylonian Chronicles which mention it. (Keep in mind that this is the first major capture of Jerusalem about 11 years prior to it's complete burning and destruction in 587/6.) Whether it was 597 or 596 is also discussed in the following Wikipedia reference:

--------[remainder of post is the reference from Wikipedia article: "Siege of Jerusalem"] -------

Nebuchadnezzar soon dealt with these rebellions. According to the Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle,[3] he laid siege to Jerusalem, which eventually fell on 2 Adar (March 16) 597 BC. The Chronicle states:

In the seventh year [of Nebuchadnezzar, 598 BC] in the month Chislev [November/December] the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti (Syria/Palestine) he laid siege to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adar [16 March] he conquered the city and took the king [Jeconiah] prisoner. He installed in his place a king [Zedekiah] of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent forth to Babylon.[4]

. . .  Nebuchadnezzar installed Jeconiah's uncle, Zedekiah as puppet-king of Judah, and Jeconiah was compelled to remain in Babylon.[10] The start of Zedekiah's reign has been variously dated within a few weeks before,[11] or after[12][13] the start of Nisan 597 BC.

The Babylonian Chronicles, which were published by Donald Wiseman in 1956, establish that Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem the first time on 2 Adar (16 March) 597 BC.[14] Before Wiseman's publication, E. R. Thiele had determined from the biblical texts that Nebuchadnezzar's initial capture of Jerusalem occurred in the spring of 597 BC,[15] but other scholars, including William F. Albright, more frequently dated the event to 598 BC.[16]

------------- end of quote from Wikipedia --------------

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Even if 607 had been the correct date for the destruction of Jerusalem (all the evidence says otherwise) and even if there was supposed to be a 2,520 year period counting from that point (the Bible never mentions that there should be one), we still have another interesting issue to look at:

The Bible evidently doesn't consider the final destruction of Jerusalem, when Zedekiah was removed from the throne at Jerusalem, to be the most important chronological event from which to start counting time. The event that starts a new era of time in Matthew's chronology is "the deportation to Babylon," 11 years earlier.

  • (Matthew 1:11-17) 11 Jo·siʹah became father to Jec·o·niʹah and to his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. 12 After the deportation to Babylon, Jec·o·niʹah became father to She·alʹti·el;. . .  Matʹthan became father to Jacob; 16 Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. 17 All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations.

"Jeconiah and his brothers" included, of course, Jehoahaz and Zedekiah.

  • (2 Kings 23:30) . . .Then the people of the land took Jo·siʹah’s son Je·hoʹa·haz and anointed him and made him king in place of his father.

  • (Jeremiah 1:3) 3 It came also in the days of Je·hoiʹa·kim the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until the completion of the 11th year of Zed·e·kiʹah the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until Jerusalem went into exile in the fifth month.

In fact, the era beginning from the "deportation to Babylon" at the time of Jeconiah and his brothers was, indeed, a period from which a new reckoning of time was counted. Note the examples from Jeremiah and Ezekiel, that indicate that this era was now the official era by which to synchronize the Jewish chrononolgy with that of the nations around them -- even 26 years after the Temple was destroyed:

  • (Jeremiah 52:31) 31 Then in the 37th year of the exile of King Je·hoiʹa·chin of Judah, in the 12th month, on the 25th day of the month, King Eʹvil-merʹo·dach of Babylon, in the year he became king, released King Je·hoiʹa·chin of Judah and brought him out of prison.
  • (Ezekiel 1:2, 3) On the fifth day of the month—that is, in the fifth year of the exile of King Je·hoiʹa·chin— 3 the word of Jehovah came to Ezekiel . . .

  • (Ezekiel 8:1) And in the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, when I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah took hold of me there.

    (Ezekiel 20:1) Now in the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, some of the elders of Israel came and sat down before me to inquire of Jehovah.

    (Ezekiel 24:1, 2) The word of Jehovah again came to me in the ninth year, in the tenth month, on the tenth day of the month, saying: 2 “Son of man, record this date, this very day. The king of Babylon has begun his attack against Jerusalem on this very day.

    (Ezekiel 26:1, 2) In the 11th year, on the first day of the month, the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! The gateway of the peoples has been broken! Everything will come my way, and I will become rich now that she is devastated’;

    (Ezekiel 29:1, 2) In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the 12th day of the month, the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, turn your face toward Pharʹaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him and against all Egypt.

    (Ezekiel 29:17, 18) Now in the 27th year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 18 “Son of man, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon made his army labor greatly against Tyre.. . .

    (Ezekiel 33:21) At length in the 12th year, in the tenth month, on the fifth day of the month of our exile, a man who had escaped from Jerusalem came to me and said: “The city has been struck down!”

    (Ezekiel 40:1) In the 25th year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month, in the 14th year after the city had fallen, on that very day the hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he took me to the city.

 @Foreigner suggests that some of the literature on the subject is often unclear, such that the entire period from 597 to 587 is sometimes ambiguous when referring to the destructive events upon Jerusalem. The last reference above in Ezekiel 40 shows that the final destruction of Jerusalem did also become a point of reference, but it was not the one that continues to get the most attention in the scriptures.

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Scholar JW

What do you think of this:

Why the Bible Is Historically Accurate 2006 (2nd Ed.) p.35

King Nebuchadnezzar (actually known as Nebuchadnezzar II by historians) of Babylon and the events that surround him will lay the foundation for the discussion in this chapter. King Nebuchadnezzar's rise to power is quite amazing. Nabopolasser, his father, had successfully conquered Assyria and obliterated Nineveh the Assyrian capital. Shortly thereafter Nebuchadnezzar had successfully beaten back Egypt as a general* in his father's military and controlled Syria and Phoenicia after that victory. Consequently Judah became a vassal nation to Babylon at that time. Three years later, King Jehoiakim of Judah aligned himself with Egypt because Egypt had been able to rise up against Nebuchadnezzar during this period. Nebuchadnezzar then besieged Jerusalem in that year to put down Jehoiakim's rebellion (he later defeated Egypt for a second time). Nebuchadnezzar captured King Jehoiakim and took him to Babylon. This marked the first year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign as king of Babylon. Jehoiakim remained the king of Judah for eight more years living in Babylon until his death. Jehoiakim's son, Jehoiachin, then reigned for three months as king of Judah. Nebuchadnezzar then took Jehoiachin prisoner and sent him to Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar then made Jehoiachin's uncle, Zedekiah, king of Judah and Zedekiah reigned for eleven more years. Zedekiah rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar was captured while Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in the 19th year of his reign (see Jeremiah 52:12).

It is important to understand what historians believe to be true about history at the time of Babylonian Captivity before we analyze what the Bible has to say. Most Biblical chronologists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar occurred in the year 586 B.C. This time is partially based on tracing the reigns of the kings of the Persian and Babylonian empires as outlined in Ptolemy's book Almagest. The Almagest was written to describe a mathematical model for predicting the motion of heavenly bodies. This book documented eclipses that occurred during the reigns of Babylonian and Persian kings that Ptolemy used to demonstrate his model. Therefore Almagest was not so much a history book as it was a book on mathematics. Also, Ptolemy was not regarded as an expert on history, if anything he was known as a reputable mathematician and astronomer. The Almagest presents the reigns of the Babylonian and Persian kings without assuming any co-regencies (that is to say, none of the kings' reigns overlapped each other), as follows:

 

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I believed I fared very well on the JWD forum over a period of many years but if you do not share my opinion then that is fine because I am not interested in convincing anyone about WT chronology just simply to defend it and in that regard, I have been successful. Don't you think?

You misread things perhaps due to your anxiety to be right and overzealous in trying to discredit WT Chronology. Rodger Young was the first scholar to introduce Methodology as a  term of nomenclature in Chronology published in the scholarly literature. However, the said 'scholar' first applied the term to Chronology in his defence of WT Chronology published on the JWD forum. Rodger Young does not support 607 but 587 as a revision to Thielean Chronology. What you fail to mention is Young's use Of Decision Tables or Analysis  in order to solve the problems associated with 587 and 586. Try explaining that to this audience. Must keep things simple!!!

You talk utter nonsense when you seek to superimpose WT  Chronology onto Youg's conclusion 6. on p. 38 in his 2004 study. What he is talking about here concerns a summary of his findings regarding the calendrical issues surrounding the resolution of the 586/7 BCE dilemma and has absolutely nothing to do with our Chronology and 607 BCE. Honesty would compel you to post conclusion 7 on p.38 and also the very first paragraph on p.21 which sets out the purpose and conclusion of his study.. You should be ashamed of yourself.

In fact one of the reasons why  I was the first scholar to introduce the term 'methodology' into the subject of Chronology long prior to 2004 was the fact that Carl Jonsson in his initial treatise stumbled over the WTS use of 539 BCE and not then using secular data to establish their OT chronology. Prior to 2000, I was in the process of doing a thesis for my Honours Degree and one of the compulsory Units was on Methodology so at that time I knew of its importance in academic research so I realized that this was the solution to Jonsson's problem along with many other inquirers so I adopted the formula that Chronology was about Methodology and Interpretation as the two essentials tools for the constructing a scheme of Chronology.. So, do not come with the nonsense about 539 BCE!!

scholar JW

 

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3 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Why the Bible Is Historically Accurate 2006 (2nd Ed.)

Oh Lordy, another ANE chronology revisionist. He wants to re-date VAT 4956 to 364 BCE, wipe out two whole Egyptian dynasties and drastically reduce the NB and Persian timelines. Smh.

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5 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

I believed I fared very well on the JWD forum over a period of many years but if you do not share my opinion then that is fine because I am not interested in convincing anyone about WT chronology just simply to defend it and in that regard, I have been successful. Don't you think?

I'm glad you have a sense of humour. :D If you are interested in my opinion about what it really means to defend something, you could start a new thread.  I'd like to keep this thread a little more on the topic of the chronology behind 607.

9 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

You misread things perhaps due to your anxiety to be right and overzealous in trying to discredit WT Chronology. Rodger Young was the first scholar to introduce Methodology as a  term of nomenclature in Chronology published in the scholarly literature. However, the said 'scholar' first applied the term to Chronology in his defence of WT Chronology published on the JWD forum.

Perhaps. Although I see nothing wrong with being anxious about being right, when it's the same as being anxious for the truth. Even zealousness is a good thing as long as it is for accurate knowledge and truth. 

  • (Romans 10:2) . . .For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge.

On this issue of Rodger Young being the first scholar to introduce Methodology as a term of nomenclature in Chronology, I'll withhold judgment, especially after seeing that Google Books returns thousands of references throughout the 20th century discussing the terms together. I believe his methodology is described exactly as we would hope that all scholars would have considered. It's a matter of being thorough and considering all possibilities before selecting the best options. I believe that Luke himself refers to such a methodology:

  • (Luke 1:1-4) 1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·oph?i·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

Decision tables happen to be a shorthand way of making sure that all those options were considered without having to spell them all out. You may have noticed that I used the equivalent of decision tables in a couple of previous discussions here. I assume it's a habit picked up in Computer Science classes, where it is a necessary tool for tracing the logic of a conclusion, or backtracking combinatorial algorithms, or quality assurance testing to make sure no possible path is missed. But these are also taught in LSAT (Law School Admissions Tests) as a way of making sure that potential students can "solve" for all logical permutations in a legal situation.

We can easily believe that many scholars have taken shortcuts before drawing their conclusions, and have seen plenty of evidence of this. But it's really a good reminder to always consider all possibilities in the most accurate detail possible before drawing conclusions. As of today, I have now read several of Rodger Young's articles, and have appreciated his attempts at accuracy. 

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Rodger Young does not support 607 but 587 as a revision to Thielean Chronology. What you fail to mention is Young's use Of Decision Tables or Analysis  in order to solve the problems associated with 587 and 586. Try explaining that to this audience. Must keep things simple!!!

How could he support 607? It's just made-up pseudo-archaeology with no solid basis. It pretends you can speak about 539 (the 67th year after the start of Nebuchadnezzar reign) without accepting that 587/6 was the19th year after the start of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, or vice versa.

I don't think you should underestimate this audience, especially if you think it's a reason to shortchange them on facts. A few will believe anything that fits what they've already accepted in the past, but that's not always going to be your typical Witness who finds reasons to visit topics like this one.

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

You talk utter nonsense when you seek to superimpose WT  Chronology onto Youg's conclusion 6. on p. 38 in his 2004 study. What he is talking about here concerns a summary of his findings regarding the calendrical issues surrounding the resolution of the 586/7 BCE dilemma and has absolutely nothing to do with our Chronology and 607 BCE. Honesty would compel you to post conclusion 7 on p.38 and also the very first paragraph on p.21 which sets out the purpose and conclusion of his study.. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You are completely wrong here. I also find that his study on on the fall of Samaria, which the WT dates to 740 and which he and others date to the first half of 723n is another study that confirms exactly what I said. And it's also an indictment of the sloppy methodology of the WTS. Not that he ever mentions the WTS, of course. He may not even be aware of the theory the WTS promotes, but everything he presents about his methodology shows the WT theory to be even more ridiculous after the kind of scrutiny he recommends. I'm definitely going to make sure that the WTS is aware of his work in the next few days. On the inclusion of point #7, I wanted to include it already but thought of space considerations. Here it is, and it is an excellent explanation of where the WTS has gone wrong for so many years:

  • The use of Decision Tables reveals that previous studies have overlooked many possibilities that were entirely consistent with the ideas of the author of the study, but which were not explored simply because they were never thought of. This failure to explore all the possibilities has been a major problem in the studies of OT chronology, and one that has led to significant confusion in the chronologies produced. It is to be hoped that future studies will not declare that some new solution is to be preferred, or the text needs to be emended, until it is demonstrated that there are no other sets of hypotheses that better explain the data. Ignoring this practice will reduce the credibility of the study.

The WTS has clearly lacked methodology, and has failed to even indicate an attempt to support the possibilities indicated by all the scriptures, much less even 10% of the secular evidence that the WTS half-relies on as absolutely true, and half-relies on as absolutely false. It would show up just how pretentious the WTS has been in selectively finding weaknesses that they don't admit are the same weaknesses for the secular dates that are relied upon.

And the first paragraph on page 21 sets out exactly what @Ann O'Maly has been saying: that it's not a matter of scholars divided over 586 and 587 due to any secular Babylonian records, but to the way in which they interpret the difference between the accession and non-accession years in the Bible record. You appeared to promote the idea that scholars should be ashamed of this "confusion" and kept implying that it was not due to the Bible's inconsistent methods of dating. Rodger Young points out this inconsistency in the Bible accounts several times. It even shows up in his other treatises. For example, on the dating of the destruction of Samaria. I'll quote it because it provides Young's own summary of a portion of the method he used in the Jerusalem paper:

  • In Young, “Jerusalem,” it was shown that the years for Zedekiah are given by the non-accession method in both 2 Kings and Jeremiah. This was not recognized earlier because the switch to non-accession counting came right at the end of the Judean kingdom and no simple clues are given to indicate that the change was taking place. By applying a proper methodology that first asks how Jeremiah and 2 Kings 25 treat the reign of Zedekiah, we can determine that the authors used non-accession reckoning, but this still does not provide the reason for the change in the method of counting. The reason, indeed, can be as arbitrary as the whim of the reigning king. Zedekiah could have said, “This is the way weÂ’re going to count my years. DonÂ’t ask any more questions.”
  • Although we do not know why the change took place, if we refused to consider anything but accession years for Zedekiah we would be guilty of a Factor One error (forcing our presuppositions on the data). One scholar who explored non-accession counting for Zedekiah was Alberto Green. . . Green was correct in saying that non-accession reckoning is not used for Jehoiakim in 2 Kings, but both Jeremiah and 2 Kings use non-accession reckoning for Zedekiah. It is unfortunate that Green missed this, because his article exhibits one of the best examples of attempting to examine all the possibilities before settling on a solution to a chronological problem.

Young therefore relies on knowledge of the Bible's inconsistency. And the WTS, of course, admits this same inconsistency as I pointed out already from the "Insight" book. But his best point is the more general counsel to examime all possibilities and not force presuppositions on the data, as the WTS has proven itself guilty of doing by not considering 90% of the data, and pretending that a denigration of 10% will suffice in denigrating the rest. (But forgetting to mention that the WTS also relies completely on the data they denigrate.) The shame is highlighted if a decision table would be shown.

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

In fact one of the reasons why  I was the first scholar to introduce the term 'methodology' into the subject of Chronology long prior to 2004 was the fact that Carl Jonsson in his initial treatise stumbled over the WTS use of 539 BCE and not then using secular data to establish their OT chronology.

I really couldn't care less what Carl Jonsson used as a methodology. It's pretty easy to do this yourself anyway with all the evidence out their on display for anyone to scrutinize. The fact that Carl Jonsson happens to get the same 587 answer that Rodger Young got might be impressive to others, especially if they are convinced that he was able to do this even without a methodology. So I guess that Rodger Young was able to confirm Jonsson's conclusion of 587. I have to say that I'm not fully convinced that Carl Jonsson and Rodger Young are necessarily correct, only because it's not clear that Zedekiah is the only king (or specific passages are the only places) for which the non-accession reckoning was used over the accession year reckoning. I believe I could still make a reasonable case for 586, but a difference of one year does not matter to me. For me, this is not part of a 1914 calculation anyway, nor would it be for you, if you chose between 587 and 586 as the correct year. Even if it was proven to be 587 and not 586, I'm pretty sure you'd still go for 607, at least until a few seconds after the WTS changes the doctrine on us again. :D

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Prior to 2000, I was in the process of doing a thesis for my Honours Degree and one of the compulsory Units was on Methodology so at that time I knew of its importance in academic research so I realized that this was the solution to Jonsson's problem along with many other inquirers so I adopted the formula that Chronology was about Methodology and Interpretation as the two essentials tools for the constructing a scheme of Chronology.. So, do not come with the nonsense about 539 BCE!!

I'm glad you did. I still can't fathom any other way anyone could have drawn a solid conclusion. 

 

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21 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Rodger Young was the first scholar to introduce Methodology as a  term of nomenclature in Chronology published in the scholarly literature.

 

21 hours ago, scholar JW said:

In fact one of the reasons why  I was the first scholar to introduce the term 'methodology' into the subject of Chronology long prior to 2004

Huh?

Anyway, who introduced you to Young's Decision Tables methodology in the first place? Think carefully before you answer and be honest.

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31 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

VAT 4956 is dated to Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year. Join the dots.

I still don’t see the relevance of your claim. This person started his creative date at 3969BC, 57 years from the WT. 35 years from the infamous Ussher starting point of 4004BC.

The board claim of the “Exodus” Date: 1659BC- 1301BC seems to agree with secular chronology

The only difference I see with that opinion? The starting date of 605 BC Nebuchadnezzar’s reign minus the 19 years to 586 BC. The majority of secular chronology “accepts” this time frame does it not? Or are you now suggesting the year’s 605/4BC and 5867/6 are incorrect? Then, the methodology being used of inductive and deductive has no massive exclusion to the timetable.

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