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The trinity and it’s false theology.


BroRando

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On 6/19/2018 at 11:57 PM, Jesus.defender said:

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

Your posts are pretty much off topic and it seems you are going on a rant, but I couldn't help noticing the above statement.

Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

"“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.+ 23  I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me".

Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

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This is where trintarians reject that Jesus was Begotten, they then reject that Jesus is Firstborn.  They also reject Jesus is Pre-eminent.  Notice the feminine nouns that are attributed to Christ to

@ShariKind He will not answer. Trinitarians like @Jesus.defender are known to tap-dance around such things, like football players with butter fingers cannot catch a ball at all. They say things they c

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@Anna Exactly, 100% right. The funny thing is, they never want to read beyond verse 30, because they know it would stop their claims dead in it's tracks. The same goes for John 20:28, only this time, they don't want to read before - knowing that Thomas was not present when the risen Jesus appeared, and only then when the disciples came and then Jesus was revealed to Thomas, to his shock, he said what he said, and the passage itself is regarding seeing is believing, especially when Thomas is being talked about for he doubted that Jesus had risen. Hence why one can call back to what Jesus had said which connects with this passage, John 14:10-11; 12:44-45.

It is pure annoyance when people deny the truth itself that comes from the scriptures, at the same time, they HATE when someone is right for saying what is 100% correct to what the bible says, they remain in denial, they accept "as is" claims from mainstream Christian, example John 10:30, such ones say this proves Jesus is God, but when told the truth, they don't want to hear it. This also goes for those who are ignorant or misinformed about one's faith, why they believe this and that when it come from scripture, for such ones have more sense than those who believe in what the man-made version of Christianity that is professed by a lot of people around the world who do not accept what is true.

Not to mention the type of Christians (Molech believers) who take delight in the death of others, or the fact that since they believe in fire torment and that God is omnipresent, being there 24/7 to watch endless torment of people, these types of Christians do not know ANYTHING about what Gehenna is nor do they know what Hades is. Such ones fail to see that God himself, emotionally, reacted to fire torment in the Old Testament. For God the Father said it best himself:  I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination. (this is but one of many verses regarding such). Mainstream ones do not know this, yet they practice this doctrine that is false of fire torment.

The very reason why salvation is only vital by those who profess 100% what the bible says, those who follow accordingly to how the church is structured and operate, as did the 1st century Christians, or organization, as they say, the very word that is not fun to use by, in this case, JW opponents, they fail to see a faith itself is pretty much Religious organization, no matter how hard they try to knock it.

SHE the church, the people IS the church, and HER teaches will remain intact, anyone who says otherwise of HER and HER people, is clearly not taking anything seriously, be it the bible or the church or what God says.

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On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

No, if I was ignorant it would be obvious, for an ignorant man knows nothing, as for knowing the bible says, clearly what is seen here is who knows what and who does not, you didn't even realize that it is written even means.

 

But it IS obvious that you are ignorant of Biblical context.

I guess you were hoping i would not play your red herring game with this long post, but i WILL reply to most of it.

 

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

You haven't refuted everything, most of what you said an the back to back comments only prove copy/paste antics.

According to Paul, Jesus, being an image/form of God, is not to be considered equal to God, Philippians 2:6. The fact you consider this a JW thing only,  bears no fruit. It is evident that you are a Trinitarian, a triggered one at that,hence the back to back comments.

LOL. Philippians 2:6 does not say Jesus is not equal with God. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Its not robbery if you already HAVE it.

"Triggered"? Sorry, i am not american. What does "triggered" mean? Does it mean someone who gets upset over something? 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

Clearly, friend, you are not dealing with a Jehovah's Witnesses, you're dealing with one who has proven to be a very critical Christian who confutes.

You call me "friend" whilst being rude and offensive to me? Hardly "friend", my friend. :)

Whether you are a "Christian", "critical" or not remains to be seen.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

As for what you have quoted, you attempt to prove Jesus is God, but as to what I said before, a simple law of which Jesus professed as a child kills the claim you make, not even the Watchtower can help you at this point, which is rather upsetting, you can quote the Watchtower all you want, I got a 4th century sources and a thousands of Strong's to use at my disposable.

I have "attempted" nothing. I have proven it. You did not address ONE scripture verses i quoted. Emmanual. GOD WITH US. is another name for Jesus, BTW.

If you are NOT a JW, why are you here defending them?

Even though i believe you ARE a JW, i will not quote watchtower material to/with you then because it is irrelevant. Lets stick with the Word of God.

What ARE these "4th century" sources? The AGE of a source means NOTHING and is NOT proof of correctness.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

God is indeed greater than his Son, Jesus because God the Father is the Eternal King (Psalms 10:16, 90:2, Daniel 6:26, Rev. 15:3) and is incorruptible/immortal (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23). He cannot succumb to what corruptible man can succumb to, God cannot die nor can he bleed (Habakkuk 1:12), so your claim of God's blood is very silly. For anyone to think God, the source of life itself, the Almighty, can die, such a man clearly woke up on the wrong side of the bed and is wearing his pants and shirt backwards.

 

The problem you have, like other JW's is that whenever you see God, you think of God the father.

Whilst on earth, Jesus WAS subservient to God the father, He made Himself a little lower than the angels. 

Remember,  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Psalm 10:16 "The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land."

Dan 6:26 "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Nothing here to support your claim. Again, whenever you see "God", you only see/read "God the father".

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

The bible tells us that God is indeed the source of Life, for life has always existed because of the living God, the fountain of life and he has no other or equal, and clearly has been around longer than any of us for Lord knows when (Jer. 10:10, 17:13, Dan. 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Cor. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thess. 1:9, Ps. 36:9).

Yes, God DID create all things. I have no problems there. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." 

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

 

We cannot be foolish of the Father's incorruptibly. God the Father is the very reason as to why Jesus became a man, for he is the one who sent Jesus after choosing Mary, moreover, God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus, this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

 

Now we are talking about John and Zechariah? Let's stay on track.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

God is not like us men, according to Job (Job 9:32-34) and what is said in the Old Testament, God is not like a Man or a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) nor does he tell lies like one (Psalms 89:35, Titus 1:2), for we know God is a Justice God, what he says is final and what he says is true, there is no question about that.

Of course. Jesus wasn't like us men either. God the father is NOT a man. I agree.

However, "greater" doe not mean better.  

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

John 14:28 makes it clear that Jesus is clearly not on equal footing to the very one who is greater than him, his Father, who is the life giver, the God of the living and the dead, the very one who has brought Jesus out of the pangs of death and made him Lord, according to Apostle Paul.

Whilst on EARTH, you are right. He was NOT on "equal footing" with God the father.  In John 14:28, Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man.

The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the FatherÂ’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.
 

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

Regarding John 10:30, the scriptures show us that Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father, for the Father that is abiding in Jesus, is doing the works

That is NOT what the text says. See how you have to add words to fit your warped theology?

Now, i am going to leave this here at the moment in terms of addressing, because you have bought up MANY points in the hope that i will not address them.

 

Please make your comments shorter and more to the point. Lets address ONE point per message, please.

 

I am stopping here on this post because i think you will not even read what i HAVE written and i have other things i am busy with.

 

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On 6/21/2018 at 9:57 AM, Anna said:

Your posts are pretty much off topic and it seems you are going on a rant, but I couldn't help noticing the above statement.

Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

"“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.+ 23  I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me".

Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him.

 

“The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” 

 

 

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The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God

1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.

2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.

3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855

‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.

John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).

All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).

All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)

4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.

5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)

6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”

7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.

8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?

9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5

10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.

11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.

12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.

13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?

14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.

15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.

16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.

17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God

18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.

19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.

20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).

Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?

21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).

22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”

23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.

24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.

25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.

26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God

27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.

28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24

29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35

30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.

The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.

31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.

Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.

Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty

32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.

Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.

Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.

Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.

Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ

33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”

35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.

36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.

37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1

38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”

39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”

Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.

40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”

In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.

41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.

42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.

43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.

44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).

45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.

“For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).

Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.

46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.

One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”

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THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD SEEN IN NATURE.

Question: How is the Trinity of the Godhead seen in nature as in Romans 1:20 ‘for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Answer: a) We see God’s eternal power in earthquakes, volcanoes, wind, millions of stars, galaxies, waves, floods, lightning, sun, moon, nuclear bombs, etc.

b) We see the Trinity of the Godhead with so many things coming in ‘threes’, reminding us of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all three members of the creator Godhead. Examples include:

1) The Physical Universe: Space, mass, time.

2) Space: 3 dimensions of space are: length, breadth, height.

3) Mass: 3 phases of matter are: solid, liquid, gas.

4) Time: 3 tenses of time are: past, present, future.

5) Light: 3 directions of light wave oscillation are: horizontal, 
vertical, back and forward.

6) Colours: 3 primary colours of light are: red, blue, yellow.

7) Kingdoms: 3 Kingdoms are: Animal, vegetable, mineral.

? Animal: 3 main kinds of Animal are: fish, bird, land animals.

9) Minerals: 3 main kinds of Minerals are: igneous, sedimentary, metamorphic.

10) Heavens: 3 heavens are: atmosphere, space, God’s throne.

11) Man: 3 components of Man are: body, soul (personality), spirit. (I Thess. 5:23).

12) Divine institutions: 3 Divine institutions are: marriage, human government, church.

13) Musical notes: 3 notes make up a musical chord.

14) Sub-atomic particles: 3 main sub-atomic particles are: proton, electron, neutron,.

15) Mankind: 3 divisions of the human race: Jew, Gentile, Church of God. (I Cor.10:32).
 

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Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Hupostasis or ὑπόστασις which Walter says refers to the nature and substance the Father and Son share

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 


John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

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There is no such scripture that states what you claim.  Not a single scripture states, 'Jesus is God'  nor does the trinity even mention Jesus in its doctrine.  Not only did the KJV remove God's Name but also removed 'theos' from Rev 1:8 and John 1:18....

When trinitarians can't show a single scripture that (God is made up of three separate persons) they throw their own doctrine under the bus, and then switch to modalism that to falsely proclaim that Jesus is God. 

Cough cough... Both doctrines exclude that Jesus is "the Christ the son of the living God' (Matthew 16:16)  Therefore, both man-made doctrines fight against the Christ.  "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)

About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eʹli, Eʹli, laʹma sa·bach·thaʹni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

“I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.” (Rev 22:16)

Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)

Even Paul identifies this angel as the ‘I am’. “For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” egō eimi

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John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Who was Moses speaking to?? (Exodus 3:2)  

“I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared.  Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him.” (Exodus 23:20-21) This angel not only Leads but can pardon sins, if not, he can destroy the sinners.

(1 Corinthians 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

(1 Corinthians 10:9-10) Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.”

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (Luke 4:34)

Daniel 12:2 is about this scripture to those waking up in the dust. “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)  Commanding Call, Archangel’s Voice, and God’s Trumpet, are all associated with the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, the Son of Man, the Chief Agent of Life whom is in Charge of the Resurrection.

If I were to show you all the scriptures about Jesus being an angel, I guess I could just give you Any Old Bible and tell you to just read it…..

 

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5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

But it IS obvious that you are ignorant of Biblical context.

I guess you were hoping i would not play your red herring game with this long post, but i WILL reply to most of it.

Not really, for I made references to that sole verse for a reason, you fail to see what I was alluding to, thus the silliness in the copy/paste comments that you made in respond. You are not the first Trinitarian I have seen, nor are you the last, but all Jesus Thumpers who consider him as a God are all identical, and very flat in explanation and not on biblical hermeneutics.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

LOL. Philippians 2:6 does not say Jesus is not equal with God. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Its not robbery if you already HAVE it.

"Triggered"? Sorry, i am not american. What does "triggered" mean? Does it mean someone who gets upset over something? 

Paul never tells us what Jesus regarded and or considered; he tells us what Jesus did not consider or regard equal to God the Father. Even Jesus himself did not regard or consider to such - the idea of being equal to God, hence the comment, Jesus is not equal with God, at all, whatsoever. He did not regard a plunder to be equal to God, period. This was something Jesus did not do and Paul tells us further down the line that to tell us what Jesus did do in contrast to what he did not do.

You are, for this is common coming from a person who has posted comments back to back within seconds of each other, you only sing your song to those who want to listen, not to those who do not.

I am not American either, nor were you referred to as one, but one thing is certain, you can read, comprehend, and understand as well as respond in English. Triggered means (of a response) caused by particular action, process, or situation. Pertaining to what I have said in a single comment, you went on your merry little way to seek what man man understanding you can find and post in not once, not twice, but several times to a minor comment of which you yourself do not know what I was aiming for, which is ironic because it would seem you still fail in grasping what I stated about the verse I posted.

Your posts however, have many errors in it, and I am not the only one who sees that.

 

Therefore, using Philippians 2:5-8 will not help your case, specifically verse 6. It has been talked about a lot and has been correctly confuted in both context and a great deal of biblical hermeneutics.

That we must recognize to ourselves who Christ Jesus is, The Son of God, The Lamb who has been sent with God abiding in Him, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance and or the likeness as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death when he, Christ Jesus, was crucified.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

You call me "friend" whilst being rude and offensive to me? Hardly "friend", my frie?nd. :)

Whether you are a "Christian", "critical" or not remains to be seen.

When it comes to scripture, I am very strict, to the point I give lecture and or critical criticism, I blame the CSE community who consist of those who are up there in their Theology since I have grown in such a community, who is often critical. I am neutral with you, and clearly it is known as to how my view of the Trinity is, I see it as unbibical and for many many years, I come across the same people like you, day in and day out, with the same response and such only prompts me to correct, nothing more. I can be a bit brash when I stumble unto honesty and clearly ones who have been misguided, and I do not take kindly to those who call everyone who strives to do what the bible says only to be marked as denying Christ, the same end-all nonsense that only comes from the Trinitarian camp, and with the experience I have, I can point out many wrong to people to claim this as well as Molech worshiping Christians and any from the mainstream. You have proven yourself to be the obvious candidate.

Oh, I am a Christian, and clearly I, as a Christian, will do what is necessary to defend scripture, as I have stated time and time again, to many, even to your Trinitarian scholars, Jay Smith and the like - you are no different.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

I have "attempted" nothing. I have proven it. You did not address ONE scripture verses i quoted. Emmanual. GOD WITH US. is another name for Jesus, BTW.

If you are NOT a JW, why are you here defending them?

Even though i believe you ARE a JW, i will not quote watchtower material to/with you then because it is irrelevant. Lets stick with the Word of God.

What ARE these "4th century" sources? The AGE of a source means NOTHING and is NOT proof of correctness.

You haven't proven anything. I know what Emmanual (Immanual) means, any man who utters sheer hermeneutics, knows the bible page to page, book to book and knows passages even by the slightest of thought. Such ones like myself take the bible with the utmost seriousness as well as Christian History of all men.

I am not a one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, however, I have studied their Christology and understand where they are coming from, as with any Restorationist Christian, for Restorationist tend to be closer to what is truth than most. They do not believe in the Trinity, they do not believe Hell is the lake of fire (for clearly Hell cannot be cast into Hell), they do not believe Jesus is God, and a list of other things. The defense comes when people make lies about Restorationist, they say they have guns under their churches, they say they have altered the bible when clearly they follow the oldest source, and it has been proven by even the most critical opponents to Trinitarianism, and the like.

You can believe in the tooth fairy, or Caesar the Ghost, I am what I am, and I know what I know. When you are built up in a strict Christian community, to learn the bible religiously to the point of it being intertwined with your life, you adhere to truth, and nothing more. You begin to learn of what truth is and who is actually seeking truth, let alone strive to be close to what is true.

One should be able to speak truth out of all the misconceptions that are out there, an example would be the comment you made: They deny Jesus. That is false, it is evident this claim of yours is very untrue and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that comes from the same people straight out of the mainstream, what is also untrue is the teaching that everyone who denies the Trinity will be tossed into the fire and be tormented with God overlooking them for an entirety, this is utterly false and clearly you do not know God's reaction in the old Testament to such a thing, the very reason I alluded to what I would have been said, an clearly, you missed it.

You can't stick to the Word of God because you are adding mainstream ideals to the scripture. This is the very reason why people like you are having a declining mainstream church, when people find out about the false explanation of verses and passages, they just leave Christianity altogether, and the irony is even Muslims are pointing this out, and I have made mention to this proof before, that being said, the mainstream adaptation of Christianity does not follow the church, nor does it follow the scripture, and clearly, you remain ignorant of this, as do your mainstream brothers and sisters who sees the truth in the bible, but turns away from it. You can quote the Watchtower until the cows come home, but actual facts, and biblical hermeneutics will put you in place, no matter how you knock. Us at CSE know everything, for the community itself is strictly bible based and we are harden in knowledge because of what the bible says, as well as our knowledge in the history of the church and Christianity itself, like a fire, what the bible says will and always will prevail.

The fact you do not know the oldest and most reliable source, further proves my claim - You do not know your bible as well as you think, and the fact you stated that, well, it proves what we say about the mainstream Trinitarians of Christendom.

A shame, but bless be those who wake up from the misguidance of the mainstream and seek and apply scriptural proof, woe to those who know of such and remains ignorant.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The problem you have, like other JW's is that whenever you see God, you think of God the father.

Whilst on earth, Jesus WAS subservient to God the father, He made Himself a little lower than the angels. 

Remember,  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Psalm 10:16 "The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land."

Dan 6:26 "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Nothing here to support your claim. Again, whenever you see "God", you only see/read "God the father".?

There is no problem, for what I say is truth and always will be truth, I do not make the Father or his Son appear as a Triune being or a being who works out of modes - no, such a thing are utter heresies and does not follow our Apostolic Age brothers and sisters of old.

The Father is the One and Only True God, and such is affirmed and made in testimony from individuals like Peter, Paul, John and many more, even our Lord, Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus, as a child, a born Jew under the Law, had to recite, learn, pray, observe the Old Testament as well as learn of who the God of Israel is and what he has done for the people, hence the very law of which is considers the foremost commandment he profess, well into his adulthood.

What you fail to see in Isaiah 9:6 is the very context of what this verse says. The facts regarding this verse/passage show us that such names are given to people as well as places, for these names do not mean that these people are places are therefore God. Moreover, it show us that the Messiah would bear this name because he represents our Eternal Father and Mighty God's wonderful counsel since it was God who made it all happen; He raised up the Messiah to carry out His purposes, mainly if the verse is taken into context just as what such was done in a similar fashion regarding Hezekiah, a son of David (forefather), who will sit on the throne of David. Anyone who understands the context of this verse will recognize what this verse is referring to, describing even, what God the Father Yahweh/Jehovah will accomplish through this child-son. The context is there, yet you do not see it because you are an obvious mainstream who allows himself to be blind.

 

Don't see why you are quoting Psalms 10:16, that verse is passage referring to God the Father. This merely tells us that God is King forever and ever and it is a direct reference to Exodus 15:18, Psalms 145:13, Jeremiah 10:10, Daniel 4:34 and 1 Timothy 1:17 - exactly. If Strong's is solely applied for the Hebrew Old Testament verses, we see of whom it points to - ??????? which refers to Yahweh/Jehovah aka YHWH/YHVH (3068), God Almighty (El Shaddai). - http://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/10-16.htm

As for Daniel 6:26, which also points to Daniel 3:29, is also referring to God the Father, who is indeed the God of Daniel, the very same and only God to Sha'drach, Me'shach and A'bed'ne'go.

As for the last statement you made, clearly you have no idea what biblical hermeneutics even means. Such ones who speak of hermeneutics are clearly well disciplined in scripture and history pertaining to the church and Christianity of old, therefore, I know quite a lot, I am able to speak Greek as well as Hebrew, of which I thank my professor for, who dwells in Israel's history, as well as the Old Testament.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now we are talking about John and Zechariah? Let's stay on track.

They were mentioned to make a point, something of which you did not see regarding to what I made the response to. We are on track, the question is, why do you not see it yet?

This was brought up because I stated the following to your claim: God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus

The very reason why I continued on to say: this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

Both of them knew what Jesus' role was, Zechariah, being the one to speak to Gabriel before, referred to Jesus as the Horn of Salvation, the one to bring deliverance to the people, the one who has been talked about, etc.

The fact that you didn't see or understood, further proves my point. Mainstream Christians like you do not read for context nor do you bear absolute understand of a passage correctly, the ironic part, it does not take a Jehovah's Witness to tell you when the very Bible says it clearly.

We know of John's role due to what Gabriel, as well as what Zechariah had said we we see it, we know it. Jesus' Baptism, John's Testimony.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Of course. Jesus wasn't like us men either. God the father is NOT a man. I agree.

However, "greater" doe not mean better.  

But you are either confusing the two or calling one the other.

Jesus was sinless and pure compared to us sin filled individuals. Jesus was flesh though, he was tired, hungry, angry, troubled and yet fearful, and not all knowing. Unlike us God was with him 100% of the way, hence Jesus as his chosen Messiah.

God the Father is certainly not like us men, however your copy/paste response says otherwise, perhaps next time re-read hat you post.

For the last bit, the Head of the Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3, 15:27, 28) - that alone should be very clear to you. If Christ is clearly greater than us men, which is evident, God himself is clearly above Christ, for no one is equal to or above God. God is the life-giver, he raised the Christ out of the death, for we know God the Father is the God of the Living and the Dead, is is that great, as if the Old Testament had not made it any clearer, especially regarding the whole temple fire situation that was immense to the point even the people on the outside of the temple made reaction to it, or the fact that the Moses being the one to speak to God for the Israelites were in fear of God for not only he was great, they feared him.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Whilst on EARTH, you are right. He was NOT on "equal footing" with God the father.  In John 14:28, Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man.

The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the FatherÂ’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.

As always, and no, what you made response to regarding John 10:30 is incorrect. If we had to accept your mainstream stance on this verse, we should be calling the Disciples God also, clearly this will not still well with any man. In John 14:28, it means what it means, the very fact that it makes a direct references to verses that further proves Jesus' position when compared to the Father only solidifies truth rather than a Trinitarian claim. Moreover, at John 10:29 (cf. 1 Peter 1:4, 5), he tells us the Father is greater than all, including as to what God has given Jesus. Statements like this are generally ignored by Trinitarians making this claim.

As the representative sent by God, Christ Jesus acted on God's behalf. If you so dearly what to equal Jesus to God, the only thing you can equal - acting on God's behalf as his representative (Shaliah) on earth, coming in flesh with the very Words God put in his Prophet's mouth. As for all this power and what God can do, clearly Jesus does not have such going for him, even when he has risen and made superior to the angels, for the Father is and will always be greater than him for he is the Head of the Christ, and clearly Jesus, in this respects is not equal to the Father, whatsoever, the servant is always equal in what he can do and what his master can do, but in power, position and status, the servant will never surpass or be greater, perhaps better than his master.

Jesus was sent, came in the name of God the Father, with respect to his position and authority, his God was greater than him and he never did seek his own will but the will of his Lord and his God. Clearly divine sonship, for this is a function of walking according to the Spirit of God and doing the works of God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God; these are the sons of God, as seen in Romans 8:14 (see John 20:21-22). He did not seek his own glory, and did not come in his own name, but, he came in the name of the only God his, Father - God Almighty (El Shaddai).

As someone who knows Greek quite well, I can see that you tend to mix in your own mainstream theology into the passage, you do realize such a word has other occurrences in scripture, right? Using it for this sole verse and being ignorant of the others, adding your own man made understanding to such, is very revealing, perhaps, more revealing that a red dot on a large white sheet of paper - it shows. 

Also its meizón  (??????) it's number is  3187, in addition, it is comparative to/of 3173, mégas.

If God is above all and is clearly a God of all his sons and all those who dwell the earth, as well as being above the one he has risen and made clear, for God is indeed the God of both the living and the dead, clearly, God is very, very powerful and very great, for he is indeed, God Almighty (El Shaddai).

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

hat is NOT what the text says. See how you have to add words to fit your warped theology?

Now, i am going to leave this here at the moment in terms of addressing, because you have bought up MANY points in the hope that i will not address them.

Please make your comments shorter and more to the point. Lets address ONE point per message, please.

I am stopping here on this post because i think you will not even read what i HAVE written and i have other things i am busy with.

But it is what the cross-references says and the context of how Jesus is one with the Father. When I say something and affirm it, there is a reason behind it, pertaining to everything I say and make reference to. I do not apply man's understanding, as you have, I merely apply sheer biblical hermeneutics and nothing more.

I bring up points to correct you, I do not expect, nor do I care about response from you, but should you do make some response that is of ill-intent, dishonest, false, ignorant, silly, foolish, slander, false accusations, expect to be corrected, and I always deliver with every truth I speak, for I speak of what the bible teaches and what the passages convey, nothing more and I speak against lies made in regards to history of Christianity and scripture, nothing more - for I defend solely what the bible says and what it teaches with strict seriousness.

My comments are always like this, I am known for this, that being said, maybe perhaps when you make comments, do not make an obvious copy/paste from a single minded source, and put everything into one response instead, none of us here for s 3 paged response to 1 verse and or passage. Fit everything into one page and maybe you will not get a point for point lecture on errors of which you have professed.

I have read what you said, I never shy away from reading anything from anyone, for any man who professes  and studies biblical hermeneutics is open to hear from all men, and even the bible informs us to be very good hearers and not be forgetful, something I apply for a very long time.

 

As for @Anna response, it is indeed correct. You call her wrong for it is not her answer, you call her wrong because she is most likely one of Jehovah's Witnesses and or adhere to the Non-Trinitarian faith of which they profess. The irony, even non JWs or non Christians understood this passage, very clearly, Muslims even, ones like Hamza Myatt.

Your response: No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

As I have stated before, Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father. What you also missed is the very Laws those Jews follow, a Law of which God himself had said to which Jesus made mention of in verse 34, 35. The law of which he speaks of (clearly cannot be broken) is found in Psalms 82:6

We see here that God has said the following: I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

It also makes a direct reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5

  • For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—

We see further on that Jesus made it clear that he was sanctified as well as being sent by the Father into this world and claimed to be, even said, that he is God's Son.

Now, when we are honest with the CONTEXT and the attitude and state of these Jews, these Pharisees, we see exactly as to why this situation is and how it came to such.

In the Gospel accounts, Christ Jesus did not spare any words concerning the Pharisees. In the Gospel of John just two chapters earlier, Jesus had explained how these Jews could not understand him because they were children of the devil, and the words he spoke could not be heard by them because they were so blindly caught up in their own desires to do the will of their father Satan. We know this because of John 8:38-47.

Now if we are being honest, we are to appreciate what Jesus said here, for it is clear. Jesus had said these Jews were not able to comprehend what he was saying to them because they were children of the devil and wanted to do the desires of Satan the Devil. They couldn't understand Jesus because they were not of God at all (Pharisees). Therefore, it is a bit absurd to suggest and or assume that these Jews are necessarily stating an accurate understanding of Jesus at verse 33 in John 10. They did the works of their father the devil and the devil is the father of lies and clearly such ones were indeed lairs. Not only do we find the Jews clearly dumbfounded throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus said these men were liars and murderers who wanted to kill him. Which calls into questions such ones like yourself, as to why do Trinitarian mainstreamers like you regard the words of these evil men as if they were spoken by God Himself? Jesus said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were evil men who were not of God. This fact alone presents a serious problem for the Trinitarian interpretation of verse 33 since the interpretation in question, the very one being professed, relies entirely on the premise that they did indeed understand Jesus and were accurately portraying who he was. Hence, the very reason why we have people like you claiming these Jews completely understood Jesus when Jesus declared they did not and could not understand what he was saying to them because they were of the devil and blinded by their desires to do their father's will.

So Anna's response here: Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

Is right because Jesus was in direct line of sight of the Pharisees, and we already know how they view Jesus, and clearly, they are not like fan girls seeking an autograph from someone they admire.

Anna's Response: On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

Which is also indeed true, but you still ignore biblical fact.

Anna's response: Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

For this is indeed what Jesus made it clear to us as what being one even means, it does not make him God, nor his disciples and or those of the early Church.

And lastly,: In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

Which is exactly and 100% true. Yet you still act out how you are in your triggered and rant filled antics,and yet you call yourself, Jesus Defender. All I see is another typical Trinitarian out of the mainstream, for such ones like you will no longer blind anyone else from here on out, and a whole lot of us are making this so.

The more you know, the better.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Not really, for I made references to that sole verse for a reason, you fail to see what I was alluding to, thus the silliness in the copy/paste comments that you made in respond. You are not the first Trinitarian I have seen, nor are you the last, but all Jesus Thumpers who consider him as a God are all identical, and very flat in explanation and not on biblical hermeneutics.

Paul never tells us what Jesus regarded and or considered; he tells us what Jesus did not consider or regard equal to God the Father. Even Jesus himself did not regard or consider to such - the idea of being equal to God, hence the comment, Jesus is not equal with God, at all, whatsoever. He did not regard a plunder to be equal to God, period. This was something Jesus did not do and Paul tells us further down the line that to tell us what Jesus did do in contrast to what he did not do.

You are, for this is common coming from a person who has posted comments back to back within seconds of each other, you only sing your song to those who want to listen, not to those who do not.

I am not American either, nor were you referred to as one, but one thing is certain, you can read, comprehend, and understand as well as respond in English. Triggered means (of a response) caused by particular action, process, or situation. Pertaining to what I have said in a single comment, you went on your merry little way to seek what man man understanding you can find and post in not once, not twice, but several times to a minor comment of which you yourself do not know what I was aiming for, which is ironic because it would seem you still fail in grasping what I stated about the verse I posted.

Your posts however, have many errors in it, and I am not the only one who sees that.

 

Therefore, using Philippians 2:5-8 will not help your case, specifically verse 6. It has been talked about a lot and has been correctly confuted in both context and a great deal of biblical hermeneutics.

That we must recognize to ourselves who Christ Jesus is, The Son of God, The Lamb who has been sent with God abiding in Him, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance and or the likeness as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death when he, Christ Jesus, was crucified.

When it comes to scripture, I am very strict, to the point I give lecture and or critical criticism, I blame the CSE community who consist of those who are up there in their Theology since I have grown in such a community, who is often critical. I am neutral with you, and clearly it is known as to how my view of the Trinity is, I see it as unbibical and for many many years, I come across the same people like you, day in and day out, with the same response and such only prompts me to correct, nothing more. I can be a bit brash when I stumble unto honesty and clearly ones who have been misguided, and I do not take kindly to those who call everyone who strives to do what the bible says only to be marked as denying Christ, the same end-all nonsense that only comes from the Trinitarian camp, and with the experience I have, I can point out many wrong to people to claim this as well as Molech worshiping Christians and any from the mainstream. You have proven yourself to be the obvious candidate.

Oh, I am a Christian, and clearly I, as a Christian, will do what is necessary to defend scripture, as I have stated time and time again, to many, even to your Trinitarian scholars, Jay Smith and the like - you are no different.

You haven't proven anything. I know what Emmanual (Immanual) means, any man who utters sheer hermeneutics, knows the bible page to page, book to book and knows passages even by the slightest of thought. Such ones like myself take the bible with the utmost seriousness as well as Christian History of all men.

I am not a one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, however, I have studied their Christology and understand where they are coming from, as with any Restorationist Christian, for Restorationist tend to be closer to what is truth than most. They do not believe in the Trinity, they do not believe Hell is the lake of fire (for clearly Hell cannot be cast into Hell), they do not believe Jesus is God, and a list of other things. The defense comes when people make lies about Restorationist, they say they have guns under their churches, they say they have altered the bible when clearly they follow the oldest source, and it has been proven by even the most critical opponents to Trinitarianism, and the like.

You can believe in the tooth fairy, or Caesar the Ghost, I am what I am, and I know what I know. When you are built up in a strict Christian community, to learn the bible religiously to the point of it being intertwined with your life, you adhere to truth, and nothing more. You begin to learn of what truth is and who is actually seeking truth, let alone strive to be close to what is true.

One should be able to speak truth out of all the misconceptions that are out there, an example would be the comment you made: They deny Jesus. That is false, it is evident this claim of yours is very untrue and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that comes from the same people straight out of the mainstream, what is also untrue is the teaching that everyone who denies the Trinity will be tossed into the fire and be tormented with God overlooking them for an entirety, this is utterly false and clearly you do not know God's reaction in the old Testament to such a thing, the very reason I alluded to what I would have been said, an clearly, you missed it.

You can't stick to the Word of God because you are adding mainstream ideals to the scripture. This is the very reason why people like you are having a declining mainstream church, when people find out about the false explanation of verses and passages, they just leave Christianity altogether, and the irony is even Muslims are pointing this out, and I have made mention to this proof before, that being said, the mainstream adaptation of Christianity does not follow the church, nor does it follow the scripture, and clearly, you remain ignorant of this, as do your mainstream brothers and sisters who sees the truth in the bible, but turns away from it. You can quote the Watchtower until the cows come home, but actual facts, and biblical hermeneutics will put you in place, no matter how you knock. Us at CSE know everything, for the community itself is strictly bible based and we are harden in knowledge because of what the bible says, as well as our knowledge in the history of the church and Christianity itself, like a fire, what the bible says will and always will prevail.

The fact you do not know the oldest and most reliable source, further proves my claim - You do not know your bible as well as you think, and the fact you stated that, well, it proves what we say about the mainstream Trinitarians of Christendom.

A shame, but bless be those who wake up from the misguidance of the mainstream and seek and apply scriptural proof, woe to those who know of such and remains ignorant.

There is no problem, for what I say is truth and always will be truth, I do not make the Father or his Son appear as a Triune being or a being who works out of modes - no, such a thing are utter heresies and does not follow our Apostolic Age brothers and sisters of old.

The Father is the One and Only True God, and such is affirmed and made in testimony from individuals like Peter, Paul, John and many more, even our Lord, Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus, as a child, a born Jew under the Law, had to recite, learn, pray, observe the Old Testament as well as learn of who the God of Israel is and what he has done for the people, hence the very law of which is considers the foremost commandment he profess, well into his adulthood.

What you fail to see in Isaiah 9:6 is the very context of what this verse says. The facts regarding this verse/passage show us that such names are given to people as well as places, for these names do not mean that these people are places are therefore God. Moreover, it show us that the Messiah would bear this name because he represents our Eternal Father and Mighty God's wonderful counsel since it was God who made it all happen; He raised up the Messiah to carry out His purposes, mainly if the verse is taken into context just as what such was done in a similar fashion regarding Hezekiah, a son of David (forefather), who will sit on the throne of David. Anyone who understands the context of this verse will recognize what this verse is referring to, describing even, what God the Father Yahweh/Jehovah will accomplish through this child-son. The context is there, yet you do not see it because you are an obvious mainstream who allows himself to be blind.

 

Don't see why you are quoting Psalms 10:16, that verse is passage referring to God the Father. This merely tells us that God is King forever and ever and it is a direct reference to Exodus 15:18, Psalms 145:13, Jeremiah 10:10, Daniel 4:34 and 1 Timothy 1:17 - exactly. If Strong's is solely applied for the Hebrew Old Testament verses, we see of whom it points to - יְהוָ֣ה which refers to Yahweh/Jehovah aka YHWH/YHVH (3068), God Almighty (El Shaddai). - http://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/10-16.htm

As for Daniel 6:26, which also points to Daniel 3:29, is also referring to God the Father, who is indeed the God of Daniel, the very same and only God to Sha'drach, Me'shach and A'bed'ne'go.

As for the last statement you made, clearly you have no idea what biblical hermeneutics even means. Such ones who speak of hermeneutics are clearly well disciplined in scripture and history pertaining to the church and Christianity of old, therefore, I know quite a lot, I am able to speak Greek as well as Hebrew, of which I thank my professor for, who dwells in Israel's history, as well as the Old Testament.

They were mentioned to make a point, something of which you did not see regarding to what I made the response to. We are on track, the question is, why do you not see it yet?

This was brought up because I stated the following to your claim: God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus

The very reason why I continued on to say: this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

Both of them knew what Jesus' role was, Zechariah, being the one to speak to Gabriel before, referred to Jesus as the Horn of Salvation, the one to bring deliverance to the people, the one who has been talked about, etc.

The fact that you didn't see or understood, further proves my point. Mainstream Christians like you do not read for context nor do you bear absolute understand of a passage correctly, the ironic part, it does not take a Jehovah's Witness to tell you when the very Bible says it clearly.

We know of John's role due to what Gabriel, as well as what Zechariah had said we we see it, we know it. Jesus' Baptism, John's Testimony.

But you are either confusing the two or calling one the other.

Jesus was sinless and pure compared to us sin filled individuals. Jesus was flesh though, he was tired, hungry, angry, troubled and yet fearful, and not all knowing. Unlike us God was with him 100% of the way, hence Jesus as his chosen Messiah.

God the Father is certainly not like us men, however your copy/paste response says otherwise, perhaps next time re-read hat you post.

For the last bit, the Head of the Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3, 15:27, 28) - that alone should be very clear to you. If Christ is clearly greater than us men, which is evident, God himself is clearly above Christ, for no one is equal to or above God. God is the life-giver, he raised the Christ out of the death, for we know God the Father is the God of the Living and the Dead, is is that great, as if the Old Testament had not made it any clearer, especially regarding the whole temple fire situation that was immense to the point even the people on the outside of the temple made reaction to it, or the fact that the Moses being the one to speak to God for the Israelites were in fear of God for not only he was great, they feared him.

As always, and no, what you made response to regarding John 10:30 is incorrect. If we had to accept your mainstream stance on this verse, we should be calling the Disciples God also, clearly this will not still well with any man. In John 14:28, it means what it means, the very fact that it makes a direct references to verses that further proves Jesus' position when compared to the Father only solidifies truth rather than a Trinitarian claim. Moreover, at John 10:29 (cf. 1 Peter 1:4, 5), he tells us the Father is greater than all, including as to what God has given Jesus. Statements like this are generally ignored by Trinitarians making this claim.

As the representative sent by God, Christ Jesus acted on God's behalf. If you so dearly what to equal Jesus to God, the only thing you can equal - acting on God's behalf as his representative (Shaliah) on earth, coming in flesh with the very Words God put in his Prophet's mouth. As for all this power and what God can do, clearly Jesus does not have such going for him, even when he has risen and made superior to the angels, for the Father is and will always be greater than him for he is the Head of the Christ, and clearly Jesus, in this respects is not equal to the Father, whatsoever, the servant is always equal in what he can do and what his master can do, but in power, position and status, the servant will never surpass or be greater, perhaps better than his master.

Jesus was sent, came in the name of God the Father, with respect to his position and authority, his God was greater than him and he never did seek his own will but the will of his Lord and his God. Clearly divine sonship, for this is a function of walking according to the Spirit of God and doing the works of God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God; these are the sons of God, as seen in Romans 8:14 (see John 20:21-22). He did not seek his own glory, and did not come in his own name, but, he came in the name of the only God his, Father - God Almighty (El Shaddai).

As someone who knows Greek quite well, I can see that you tend to mix in your own mainstream theology into the passage, you do realize such a word has other occurrences in scripture, right? Using it for this sole verse and being ignorant of the others, adding your own man made understanding to such, is very revealing, perhaps, more revealing that a red dot on a large white sheet of paper - it shows. 

Also its meizón  (μείζων) it's number is  3187, in addition, it is comparative to/of 3173, mégas.

If God is above all and is clearly a God of all his sons and all those who dwell the earth, as well as being above the one he has risen and made clear, for God is indeed the God of both the living and the dead, clearly, God is very, very powerful and very great, for he is indeed, God Almighty (El Shaddai).

But it is what the cross-references says and the context of how Jesus is one with the Father. When I say something and affirm it, there is a reason behind it, pertaining to everything I say and make reference to. I do not apply man's understanding, as you have, I merely apply sheer biblical hermeneutics and nothing more.

I bring up points to correct you, I do not expect, nor do I care about response from you, but should you do make some response that is of ill-intent, dishonest, false, ignorant, silly, foolish, slander, false accusations, expect to be corrected, and I always deliver with every truth I speak, for I speak of what the bible teaches and what the passages convey, nothing more and I speak against lies made in regards to history of Christianity and scripture, nothing more - for I defend solely what the bible says and what it teaches with strict seriousness.

My comments are always like this, I am known for this, that being said, maybe perhaps when you make comments, do not make an obvious copy/paste from a single minded source, and put everything into one response instead, none of us here for s 3 paged response to 1 verse and or passage. Fit everything into one page and maybe you will not get a point for point lecture on errors of which you have professed.

I have read what you said, I never shy away from reading anything from anyone, for any man who professes  and studies biblical hermeneutics is open to hear from all men, and even the bible informs us to be very good hearers and not be forgetful, something I apply for a very long time.

 

As for @Anna response, it is indeed correct. You call her wrong for it is not her answer, you call her wrong because she is most likely one of Jehovah's Witnesses and or adhere to the Non-Trinitarian faith of which they profess. The irony, even non JWs or non Christians understood this passage, very clearly, Muslims even, ones like Hamza Myatt.

Your response: No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

As I have stated before, Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father. What you also missed is the very Laws those Jews follow, a Law of which God himself had said to which Jesus made mention of in verse 34, 35. The law of which he speaks of (clearly cannot be broken) is found in Psalms 82:6

We see here that God has said the following: I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

It also makes a direct reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5

  • For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—

We see further on that Jesus made it clear that he was sanctified as well as being sent by the Father into this world and claimed to be, even said, that he is God's Son.

Now, when we are honest with the CONTEXT and the attitude and state of these Jews, these Pharisees, we see exactly as to why this situation is and how it came to such.

In the Gospel accounts, Christ Jesus did not spare any words concerning the Pharisees. In the Gospel of John just two chapters earlier, Jesus had explained how these Jews could not understand him because they were children of the devil, and the words he spoke could not be heard by them because they were so blindly caught up in their own desires to do the will of their father Satan. We know this because of John 8:38-47.

Now if we are being honest, we are to appreciate what Jesus said here, for it is clear. Jesus had said these Jews were not able to comprehend what he was saying to them because they were children of the devil and wanted to do the desires of Satan the Devil. They couldn't understand Jesus because they were not of God at all (Pharisees). Therefore, it is a bit absurd to suggest and or assume that these Jews are necessarily stating an accurate understanding of Jesus at verse 33 in John 10. They did the works of their father the devil and the devil is the father of lies and clearly such ones were indeed lairs. Not only do we find the Jews clearly dumbfounded throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus said these men were liars and murderers who wanted to kill him. Which calls into questions such ones like yourself, as to why do Trinitarian mainstreamers like you regard the words of these evil men as if they were spoken by God Himself? Jesus said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were evil men who were not of God. This fact alone presents a serious problem for the Trinitarian interpretation of verse 33 since the interpretation in question, the very one being professed, relies entirely on the premise that they did indeed understand Jesus and were accurately portraying who he was. Hence, the very reason why we have people like you claiming these Jews completely understood Jesus when Jesus declared they did not and could not understand what he was saying to them because they were of the devil and blinded by their desires to do their father's will.

So Anna's response here: Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

Is right because Jesus was in direct line of sight of the Pharisees, and we already know how they view Jesus, and clearly, they are not like fan girls seeking an autograph from someone they admire.

Anna's Response: On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

Which is also indeed true, but you still ignore biblical fact.

Anna's response: Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

For this is indeed what Jesus made it clear to us as what being one even means, it does not make him God, nor his disciples and or those of the early Church.

And lastly,: In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

Which is exactly and 100% true. Yet you still act out how you are in your triggered and rant filled antics,and yet you call yourself, Jesus Defender. All I see is another typical Trinitarian out of the mainstream, for such ones like you will no longer blind anyone else from here on out, and a whole lot of us are making this so.

The more you know, the better.

I am not going to address this pathetically long post, so congratulations, you got what you wanted.

Now, you can play the "haha, you cannot refute anything i say" game or the "i won" game if that makes you feel better.

 

you are a fool brainwashed into your unitarian cult and instead of having a dialog on one point at a time, you make absurdly long posts in the hope the other person will give up.

 

Well, you win.

 

I give up on you.

 

God bless.

 

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