The trinity and it’s false theology.

[BroRando]

This is where trintarians reject that Jesus was Begotten, they then reject that Jesus is Firstborn.  They also reject Jesus is Pre-eminent.  Notice the feminine nouns that are attributed to Christ to show he was First to be Created. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"

Strong's Concordance ktisis: creation (the act or the product) Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: ktisis Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is) Short Definition: creation, creature, institution Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no deep waters,  When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water., When there were no springs overflowing with water." (Proverbs 8:22-24)  Brought forth means, made, created, begotten. always of Divine Work. (ie...deity of Christ)  

"However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Corinthians 1:24) 

Strong's Concordance

sophia: skill, wisdom

Original Word: σοφία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: sophia
Phonetic Spelling: (sof-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: wisdom
Definition: wisdom, insight, skill (human or divine), intelligence.

The same ones who reject Jesus as "the Christ, the son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16) Reject the "Deity of the Christ."        Strong's Concordance

theotés: deity

Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Short Definition: deity, Godhead
Definition: deity, Godhead.

 

"In the Beginning was the Word"  Notice beginning is attributed to whom?  THE WORD.

Strong's Concordance

arché: beginning, origin

Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

HELPS Word-studies

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial(starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief(foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Therefore, the scriptures are unified that Jesus is "a god" which refers to his Deity in John 1:1c.  

Strong's Concordance

theos: God, a god

Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

"Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:10)

Therefore, when the wicked hear and see these things they begin to "bark" against the Christ. "Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’ (Rev 22:16)

And such ones turn to attack the Christ through their Anti Christian Dogma.  "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

 

 

[Space Merchant]

@Jesus.defender Again, not only JWs see this in regards to what firstborn is and what it means.

Jesus is also the first of the fruits as well as the firstborn out of the dead, the only one to pull Jesus out of the pangs of death was God, as explicitly stated in Acts, Galatians, Romans, etc, pretty much anything that Paul has utter and or written.

 

You also have to realize the occurrences of Firstborn, but normal and unique.

[BroRando]

On 7/1/2018 at 12:49 AM, Jesus.defender said:

anti-Christians DENY that Jesus is God, DENY the cross, DENY hell, DENY the bodily resurrection and yet still have the nerve to call themselves "Christian".

No, Anti-Christians bear a false witness against Christ.... they believe in the false theology of the trinity that rejects CHRIST.  

?So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. ?You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ ?Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” (Hebrews 10:15-7)

Trintarians reject that Christ came to do God's WILL.   "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. (Hebrews 10-10)

The scriptures don't make the claim that the body that Jesus sacrificed was taken back... 

 

[BroRando]

The trinity cross has been worshiped for over 4,200 years.  What's wrong with that picture?  

 One nail can make two nail prints: Do You Know the Truth? A or B ?

 

[BroRando]

17 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Firstborn’ (Greek: prototokos) does NOT mean ‘first-createdÂ’ (Greek: protoktisis). First-created (Protoktisis) is never used of Christ in NT.

Strong's Concordance ktisis: creation (the act or the product) Original Word: ??????, ???, ? Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: ktisis Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is) Short Definition: creation, creature, institution Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance. HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo). If Colossians 1:15 is not talking about Jesus Christ then whom is it talking about?  God??   He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;   (Jesus Christ is Firstborn of ALL Creation.) He is the Beginning of ALL Creation.  "In the Beginning was the WORD" (John 1:1)  "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth." (John 1:14) You are forced to deny the son who was begotten from the Father.   "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22) Â

[ShariKind]

On 6/23/2018 at 12:12 AM, Space Merchant said:

When you are built up in a strict Christian community, to learn the bible religiously to the point of it being intertwined with your life, you adhere to truth, and nothing more. You begin to learn of what truth is and who is actually seeking truth, let alone strive to be close to what is true.

That is a wonderful statement.

[ShariKind]

On 7/1/2018 at 12:48 AM, Jesus.defender said:

Wow, ONE verse.Good on you!

 

Yes, in the OLD TESTAMENT times, Jesus was not on the earth in BODILY form.

Do you believe he was on the earth at all prior to his appearance as a man?

[Jesus.defender]

7 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

No, Anti-Christians bear a false witness against Christ.... they believe in the false theology of the trinity that rejects CHRIST.  

?So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. ?You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ ?Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” (Hebrews 10:15-7)

Trintarians reject that Christ came to do God's WILL.   "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. (Hebrews 10-10)

The scriptures don't make the claim that the body that Jesus sacrificed was taken back... 

 

 

And thats EXACTLY what cults like jehovahs witnesses do.

 

More correctly, they bear witness against a FALSE Jesus.

 

Lets stop all these videos in the text, ok? I can do that too. Lets TALK.

 

 

[Jesus.defender]

6 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Strong's Concordance ktisis: creation (the act or the product) Original Word: ??????, ???, ? Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: ktisis Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is) Short Definition: creation, creature, institution Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance. HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo). If Colossians 1:15 is not talking about Jesus Christ then whom is it talking about?  God??   He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;   (Jesus Christ is Firstborn of ALL Creation.) He is the Beginning of ALL Creation.  "In the Beginning was the WORD" (John 1:1)  "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth." (John 1:14) You are forced to deny the son who was begotten from the Father.   "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)     Â

 

yest again you are all over the place, my friend. Typical of the jw followers. not sticking to one point but red herring all over the place.

rather than address the word used for "firstborn", you IGNORE it and go onto something else.

The word is "??????????" (pr?totokos) 
Let's try this AGAIN.

Colossians 1:15 - ‘the firstborn (Greek: prototokos 4416) of every creature’.

JWs use this verse to teach that Jesus was created at a point in time as an angel.

They ignore the evidence and insist that the word ‘firstborn’ here means ‘first created’, ‘the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons’.

The Bible teaching:

1) ‘Firstborn’ (Greek: prototokos) does NOT mean ‘first-created’ (Greek: protoktisis). First-created (Protoktisis) is never used of Christ in New Testament.

Question:Where is it used of Jesus in New Testament?

Question: Why didn’t Paul use the term ‘first-created’ (protoktisis) in Colossians 1:15 if he meant that Christ was the first one created by Jehovah?

2) Ask: What does ‘firstborn’ (Greek: prototokos 4416) mean?

Answer: ‘Pre-eminent, Ruler, Sovereign, First in rank’.

It is used in other passages which refer to Christ:

i. Romans 8:29 ‘that he might be the firstborn among many brethren’. ‘Prototokos’ presents Christ as the pre-eminent member of the group (S. Zodhiates NT, p 1249).
ii. Colossians 1:15. ‘The firstborn of every creature’ Christ is the one pre-eminent and supreme ruler over all creation (S Zodhiates NT, p 1250). v.16 ‘By him were all things created’ means that Christ Himself is not part of Creation (John 1:3).
iii. Colossians 1:18 ‘He (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the
beginning (arche), the firstborn (prototokos=Ruler) from the dead; that in all
things he might have the pre-eminence (proteuon)Â’.
‘Arche’ means ‘first cause’ (Revelation 3:14, Colossians 1:18) and is parallel to
‘prototokos’ in Colossians 1:15,18, both asserting Christ’s pre-eminence.
Note: ‘Proteuon’ (pre-eminence) present tense is used only in Colossians 1:18 and indicates not an acquired right to be ruler and pre-eminent, but an inherent right by virtue of His nature. Christ, being the Creator, deserves to have pre-eminence.
iv. Hebrews 1:6 ‘And again, when he bringeth the firstbegotten(prototokos=Ruler) into the world, he saith ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him’.
Alternately, translate this as ‘And when He again brings the firstborn into the
worldÂ’, refers to ChristÂ’s second coming when Christ as King will be worshipped
by the angels. Christ is exalted even above all the angels.
v. Revelation 1:5 ‘And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the
firstbegotten (prototokos=Ruler) of the dead, and the prince (arche = chief) of the kings of the earth.’ Here ‘prototokos’ means that Christ is first of those to be
resurrected, and prince (arche) means ruler of earthÂ’s kings at His second coming.
Note: JWs compare Christ as the firstborn of all creation with the firstborn son of Pharaoh. This is nonsensical, because it is true that Pharaoh parented his son, but it is not true that ‘all creation’ parented Jesus.
3) We must understand what the original speaker or writer intended by the words which he used. The ancient Hebrews used the term ‘firstborn son’ when referring to the preeminent son, regardless of whether or not he was the first son born to the parents. The son with the title ‘firstborn’ had the right of primogeniture which meant that:
i) He acquired a special blessing (Genesis 27);
ii) He became heir of a double share of the fatherÂ’s wealth (Deuteronomy 21:17);
iii) He replaced his father as the family head. He had authority over his brothers;
iv) He represented the father in civil and religious matters;
v) He had some holiness because through him flowed the common blood of the tribe (Genesis 49:3; Deuteronomy 21:17).
Key: The term ‘firstborn’ does not refer to the first one born, but to the pre-eminent one in the family. Consider these examples where the son with the title ‘firstborn’ was not born first:
(1) David was the last born son of Jesse, yet Psalm 89:27 says of him: ‘Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth’. (v.20 onwards refers to David).
(2) Ephraim was the second born son of Joseph: ‘The name of the second called he Ephraim.’ (Genesis 41:50-52). Yet ‘Ephraim is my firstborn’ (Jeremiah 31:9). This was because of his pre-eminent position. Manasseh was born first to Joseph, but Ephraim became the firstborn because of his pre-eminence.
(3) Jacob (Israel) was the second son born to Isaac, after Esau, yet God says of Israel, ‘Israel is my son, even my firstborn.’ (Exodus 4:22). Esau says of himself, ‘I am Esau thy firstborn’. (Genesis 27:19). Esau means that he was born first and should have the birthright. God means that Israel, though born second, took the pre-eminent position. Hence, in this sense Christ is firstborn because of His pre-eminence, not because He was created first as JWs think.
(4) Solomon was born to David later, and the line of the kings came through Solomon,yet Amnon was born first (I Chronicles 3:2).
(5) Isaac was born 13 years after Ishmael, yet Isaac took the pre-eminent position in the family.(Genesis 17:19).
(6) Judah was the fourth son born to Jacob (Genesis 29:35), yet Judah received the dominion and line of Christ, even though Reuben being born first forfeited his right of primogeniture due to fornication (Genesis 49:3,4)
4) Firstborn can be rendered metaphorically, not meaning born first. Examples include:
i) Job 18:13 ‘the firstborn of death shall devour his strength’. As the firstborn son held the chief place, so Job refers to the chiefest (most deadly) disease that death possessed;
ii) Isaiah 14:30 ‘The firstborn of the poor shall feed’, means the poorest of the poor.

Conclusion: Firstborn does not mean born first or created first. Rather, it is a title of first rank, or pre-eminent position. Paul calls Christ the firstborn (prototokos = Ruler).

Ask: What does Psalm 89:27 mean by calling David firstborn, when he was the last born son?

Ask: Why didn’t Paul use ‘first created’ (protoktisis) of Christ in Colossians 1:15 if he intended to teach that Christ was the first one created by Jehovah?
 

 

[Jesus.defender]

@Brother Rando "You are forced to deny the son who was begotten from the Father.   "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)  "

Unless the watchtower cult, i am allowed to think for myself and read the Bible WITHOUT watchtower influence.

I am forced to accept what the Bible says.

You are forced to believe what the watchtower says their bible says.

Now you are going off from "firstborn" to begotten? Can we not stick to one thing at a time?.

The watchtower has brainwashed you with lies about what Christians believe. You and the watchtower have NO IDEA what Christians believe.

 

But, i WILL answer your "begotten" thing.

 

John 3:16 - ‘He gave His only begotten Son’.

Watchtower teaching: JWs teach that the term ‘Son of God’ refers to Jesus as a separate created being, just as Isaac was called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’ (Hebrews 11:17), and that Jesus as ‘Son of God’ was not God Himself. JWs claim that Almighty God is the Father of Jesus in the same sense that Abraham is the father of Isaac. JWs claim that God is the senior, and Jesus is the junior - in time, position, power and knowledge.

The Bible teaching: Isaac was not Abraham’s ‘only son’. Abraham had begotten a number of other sons, such as Ishmael, Zimram, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (Genesis 25:2). The term ‘only begotten Son’ means that Isaac was Abraham’s unique son. Hence Jesus is ‘the only begotten Son’ in the sense that no-one else is as unique as Jesus. Jesus is alone all that God is. ‘All things that the Father hath are mine.’ (John 16:15).

If Christ has all the attributes that the Father has, then Christ is God, because only God has eternality, omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.

Question: What did ‘Son of’ mean among the ancients? The idea that the title ‘Son of God’ indicates inferiority to the Father, is based on a faulty conception of what ‘Son of’ meant among the ancients. Though it can mean ‘offspring of’ in some contexts, it also carries the more important meaning: ‘OF THE ORDER OF’

It is used in this way as follows:
i) ‘The sons of the prophets’ (I Kings 20:35) meant ‘of the order of the prophets’;
ii) The ‘sons of the singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28) meant ‘of the order of the singers’;
iii) ‘Of the sons of Asaph’ (Nehemiah 11:22) meant ‘of the order of Asaph’.

Hence, the phrase ‘Son of God’ means ‘of the order of God’ as a claim to Christ’s undiminished Deity.
Ancient Jews and Orientals used the phrase ‘son of’ to indicate sameness of nature and equality of being. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, His Jewish contemporaries fully understood that He was claiming to be fully equivalent to God.
Hence, when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Jews said, ‘We have a law, and by our
law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God’. (John 19:7).
‘he said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.’ (John 5:18).

Ask: If the phrase ‘son of’ meant sameness of nature and equality of being among the ancients, as historical records clearly show, then what does this tell us about the meaning of the phrase ‘Son of God’?

Christ was Son of God before His human birth:

i) ‘For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world . . .’(John 3:17).
That Christ, as the Son of God, was sent into the world, implies that He was the Son of God before His incarnation.
ii) Proverbs 30:4 shows God as the Creator who has a Son: ‘What is his name, and what is his son’s name?’
This speaks of God the Father and God the Son in present tense terms in OT times.
iii) ‘the form of the fourth is like the Son of God’. (Daniel 3:25).
Nebuchadnezzar threw three men into the fiery furnace, yet he saw the Son of God walking with them in the furnace. The Masoretic Text and Septuagint reads, ‘Son of God’(singular) not ‘a son of the gods’ as in the JW New World Translation and the NIV.

[Jesus.defender]

16 hours ago, Gone Away said:

And ....first-born......

No, it does not.

 

Gk: “prototokos in Colossians 1:15) means “pre-eminent or ruler”? David (Psalm 89:27),Ephraim (Genesis 41:50-52 and Jeremiah 31:9), Jacob (Exodus 4:22), and Solomon (IChronicles 3:1,2) were all called “firstborn”, but none of them were born first. (p.860).Why?
Because “firstborn” can mean “chief”, as with Christ, and not first created (Grk: protoktisis).

[BroRando]

Claiming God is Firstborn is an untruth pushed by Anti - Christians.  God is eternal not chief, foremost, or pre-eminent.  Archangel comes from the Greek root word arche',

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial(starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief(foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

God is eternal, he has NO Initial Starting Point. If Jesus has Priority, then he is ahead of the rest. The rest of whom?  Jesus gave the wicked religious leaders that answer, he admitted to have come from among the 'gods' whom the word of God came.... 

(John 10:34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 

When Jehovah exalted his only begotten and told his angels to be in subjection to his son.  Do what he says for he has the Last Word. "But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” (Hebrews 1:6)

Let all of God's Angels do obeisance to him...  Why would God have order his Angels to Obey Jesus Christ, if Jesus Christ is God?  

It wasn't the first time either....(Exodus 23:20)  I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him. 

Didn't Jesus go to heaven and have authorities, governments, and angels made subject to him??  "Look! My servant, whom I support! My chosen one, whom I have approved! I have put my spirit in him; He will bring justice to the nations." (Isaiah 42:1)

Whom did Jehovah support?  Whom did Jehovah Choose?   Whom did Jehovah Approve?    "Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:17)

"Look! My servant whom I chose, my beloved, whom I have approved! I will put my spirit upon him, and what justice is he will make clear to the nations." (Matthew 12:18)

And a voice came out of the heavens: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.” (Mark 1:11)

These scriptures point to Jesus Messiah-ship....  "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18)

Your teaching that God was GIVEN all authority in heaven and on earth is a theology error.   "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son," (John 5:22)

You were saying that "Jesus is Jehovah" but the Father judges no one at all....   Like I said, triniaratinas are not Christians, they are Anti-Christians.  What happen to the three person god?  

Triintarians teach God begotten himself and is a Servant and was worse than then angels until an inferior gave God a Name, so God has become better then the angels simply because of the Name he inherited.  Do I simply call you Legion?  He got you hook, line, and sinker, and I see him jogging away with you in his mouth.  But this time,  I'm not chasing him or punching him to let you loose.  He is carrying you off to devour. 

Now you're adopting the spiritualistic teaching of the demons, such as incarnation?   Jehovah no longer as a Father but now is the Father in the flesh?   I think you hit your head one too many times when you worship those idols of stone and wood 

Look at what the Christ denier denies:  (Words of Jesus Christ)

"God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:24)  "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.(John 4:23)

The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (John 4:25-26)

You can't gain understanding.... "Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:10)