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Should we close our ears to rebels? or opposers?

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bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

kilometer.jpg

Possibly fake, but even if it is, it recreates real experiences children have had with teachers.

 

We've all been there and done that. Most Witnesses have come from a false religious background. I came from a Roman Catholic background and had aspirations of becoming a nun. I associated with nuns after school, cleaned the classrooms and sang in the choir, so my background was fully vested in the teachings of the Trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, purgatory, limbo, Jesus was Catholic, the infallibility of the Pope - he was god on earth.

But a life changing experience happened one day, a man came to our door and began to show my mother scriptures proving his point on the areas they discussed. My mother, a strong person who also had deep respect for the Bible listened and in that discussion something touched her heart.

The young man had his mother revisit my mother and discussed what had previously been initiated by her son. Within the same time frame a Seventh Day Adventist was visiting my mother voicing her version of scripture and offering a Bible study. My mother, in order to make her decision on which one to choose, asked each one to explain what the Sabbath meant and should it still be enforced as in the Law.

She listened and looked up Scripture and there was no comparison in teaching, she was confident that Jehovah's Witness had the TRUTH of the matter. She began to study the Bible and was baptized in 1952. My mother began to speak about the Bible to her siblings (who were all different religions and scattered around the U.S.) they began to study the Bible and were baptized at different times and places.(4 brothers, 2 sisters and her father and her three children)

So we've been there and indoctrinated in a variety of different religions before a selfless individual came to our door in obedience to Jesus command at Matthew 19:28,29. Yes, that Good News is being preached in 239 Lands and Islands and in over 900 languages - in over two hundred thousand congregations worldwide.

The noise that you hear on the internet cannot drown out the preaching of the Good News and the gathering of the sheep. Jesus said: John 10:3" But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

 

Apostates and other opposers are very busy in these days and the scripture tells us why Ezekiel 29:4 " And I will put hooks in your jaws and cause the fish of your Nile canals to cling to your scales. And I will bring you up out of the midst of your Nile canals and all the fish of your Nile canals that cling to your very scales. 5 And I will abandon you to the wilderness, you and all the fish of your Nile canals. Upon the surface of the field you will fall. You will not be gathered up nor be collected together. To the wild beasts of the earth and to the flying creatures of the heavens I will give you for food. 6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt will have to know that I am Jehovah,"

 

Yes Indeed! Jehovah has put the hooks in the jaws of Satan and his demonic cohorts and they cannot turn back and as Ezekiel's prophecy makes clear, it is for one reason - identify and destroy.

 

As the apostle Paul points out at 2Corinthians 4: 3 "If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

 

 

 

 

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In a sense Jehovah's Witnesses are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of the major religions like the Catholic Church, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences,  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Church and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

Hosea 4:6 shows that people will be silenced for lack of knowledge.  Second Thessalonions 1: 6-9 shows that people will undergo judicial punishment because of not knowing God and not obeying the good news. The case above shows the good sense of letting the real authority of the Bible speak. God's true sheep know the sound of the  truth/his voice.  Look at the amazing fruit that resulted when one honest-hearted lady  helped her family to know the truth as well. 

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On 6/17/2018 at 10:41 AM, Jack Ryan said:

bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.

 

We are not following worldly advice, we let the Scripture, as an unfailing prophetic book, be the guide.

Galatians 1:6  "I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

 

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HMMMM!!

 

"The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly." Proverbs 13:20

"Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough?"  1 Corinthians 5:6

 

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Melinda, I implore you to reason on your words.  

On 7/15/2018 at 7:42 AM, Melinda Mills said:

In a sense Jehovah's Witnesses are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of the major religions like the Catholic Church, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences,  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Church and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

 

How is your example of the Catholic Church any different than the Watchtower?  For any who reject teachings such as “this generation”, the Armageddon dates that have come and gone, and Watchtower’s desire to put a manmade organization on a pedestal as the source of salvation, and which they proudly call “earthly Zion”, disfellowshipping ensues.  Any failed teaching gives evidence of lack of knowledge from God.  James 1:16-18  Failed doctrine has no relationship with Christ’s truth nor is it good news, but only stumbling forecasts made by stubborn priests already “defrocked” in the eyes of God.  They have haughtily rejected Christ as their head, usurping his authority by expecting obedience of all Christ’s anointed priests, to be given to them.   Ezek 21:25-27; Matt 23:12; 24:24

Here is your comment from a different perspective:

In a sense exJWs are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of religions like the Watchtower organization, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences, (regardless of being disfellowshipped)  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Watchtower and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

Feb 12, 2012  Calvin Rouse, lawyer for the Watchtower in the Menlo Park kingdom hall lawsuit:

“We are a hierarchal religion structured just like the Catholic Church. And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest -- in the parish.”

This set of “consequences” affects anointed ones – the “holy priesthood” of God, as well as many others who have recognized the sound of Christ’s Truth. When choosing Christ’s full authority over men, they can distinguish between the rotten fruit of false/failed doctrine, and fine fruit sourced in Christ. John 15:1-8   Why is it, that the majority of JWs cannot recognize it?  Why is it that God’s anointed priests still inside, turn a blind eye to such falsehood?  Why do they not perceive THEY are the true Zion and that their hearts are the dwelling and Temple of God? 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Eph 2:20-22; Zech 8:3  Simply because they have filled their mind and heart with teachings/”fruit”/”wine” from false leaders, - harlots -  just like the Catholics who listen to the pope. John 7:18; Matt 7:15,16; Jer 2:21; Deut 32:32,33; John 15:5,16; Rev 17:1,2

But in this case, it is gravely serious, because these priests are God’s chosen people.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22

You said, 

“Hosea 4:6 shows that people will be silenced for lack of knowledge.” 

But let no one bring a charge,
    let no one accuse another
,
for your people are like those
    who bring charges
against a priest.

 (a Judicial committee of false “priests”/elders who are not anointed, judging God’s anointed priesthood as “spiritually dead” for accepting Christ as their Head, instead of a “wicked slave. Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; Rev 13:  Matt 24:48-51)


You stumble day and night,
    and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother—
    my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

“Because you have rejected knowledge,
    I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
    I also will ignore your children.
The more priests there were,
    the more they sinned against me;
    they exchanged their glorious God for something disgraceful.
They feed on the sins of my people
    and relish their wickedness.
And it will be: Like people, like priests.
    I will punish both of them for their ways
    and repay them for their deeds.

10 “They will eat but not have enough;
    they will engage in (spiritual) prostitution but not flourish,
because they have deserted the Lord
    to give themselves 11 to prostitution;
old wine and new wine ( old light, new light)
  take away their understanding.
12 My people consult a wooden idol,
    and a diviner’s rod speaks to them.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
    they are unfaithful to their God.

Do JWs allow a spirit of prostitution to lead them astray?  Yes.  False prophets/Harlots have convinced you to “serve the organization”, transposing this to mean, serving God. Rev 13;1,4,7,8,11,14-17 Nothing on this earth is to be compared to, or served, except God and His Son.  Isa 42:8; 46:5,20; Luke 4:8; Rom 6:16 The apostles didn’t “serve” the needs of an organization, but they wholeheartedly served God and Jesus. Matt 6:24  Where does it say in the scriptures that an organization, other than the ‘organized’ anointed Body of Christ, the Temple of God, must be recognized as the pathway to salvation? Ps 2:6; Ezek 20:40; Rev 14:1   God and Christ both have absolutely no interest in earthly wealth, investments, or buildings that thrive in Satan’s world. Matt 6:19-21; Acts 17:24,25; Phil 3:19; Col 3:2  His only “investments” are those members of Christ’s Body; where His Holy Spirit dwells, as well as the hearts of those seeking pure Truth through His Son.  John 14:23

On 7/15/2018 at 7:42 AM, Melinda Mills said:

The case above shows the good sense of letting the real authority of the Bible speak. God's true sheep know the sound of the  truth/his voice. 

I would hope we are speaking of the authority of God and Christ, and not that of the governing body.  For them to say that God is responsible at any point in time, for Watchtower’s wayward teachings is an absolute lie; yet, they are guilty of doing so.  Did they let the real authority of the Bible speak, or was it from their own desires?  Ezek 13:3  JW have been disfellowshipped for bringing this to the attention of the elders.   

Is it possible for any JW to read scriptures in support of this truth, and take it into their heart?  Or, is the plentiful “fruit” of false teachers more desirable to “eat”?  It is easy to say one relies on the authority of the Bible; JWs are convinced they do, forgetting all the “bible-based” discarded books and teachings that are no longer in use. 

“God’s anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living. 

They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools.

These people have exchanged God’s truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen!  Rom 1:18,21,25

JWs, you believe you are out of the woods and have left false teachings behind; but you can’t see the forest for the trees.  These particular “trees”/teachers that you seek shelter under, waiting for their spiritual “food” to drop, have an axe waiting at the base of their bitter roots, to chop them down.  Jer 23:15; Matt 3:7-10; Heb 12:14-17;Rev 8:10-11; Rev 19:20

 

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You must be a disfellowshipped person, HUH ? You should be supremely happy - you are now on the outside looking in so  stop pressing your nose against our windows.

Did you want followers? All those who choose to follow a Judas goat will be led to the slaughter.

Sheep, on the other hand, hear the voice of the Fine Shepherd calling their name. John 10:3 "The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

 

So you were preaching false doctrine in the kingdom hall to Jehovah's Witnesses? Not a very smart move. Then you thought it appropriate to exhibit your mad ravings to the elders and were disfellowshipped for being an apostate. I can't imagine why? Of course apostates are not anything new, the apostle Paul was quite eloquent in his description of those in the first century.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

I have a feeling you are not very happy any place you plant yourself, but look at it this way - you weren't happy with us and we were not happy with you.

 

 

 

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    • An interesting take with a lot to say for it. When Jude mentions these "rocks beneath the surface" for example, it always reminds me of the first time I read "Paul and Thecla" while at Bethel, but at the NYPL, via a book about Christian widows of the 2nd century. Paul and Thecla is an early Christian short story or novella with Thecla, not Paul, as the hero. It's one of a few stories of this type, probably written by and for women in the early Christian congregations. The antagonists of some of these stories are the 2nd century "circuit overseers" who would go from congregation to congregation saying all the right things from the "platform" but then they would also quietly worm their way into the houses of well-meaning sisters and widows, and try to take advantage of them sexually. I was quite surprised when the Watchtower last year mentioned Paul and Thecla for the second time in nearly 100 years, and was again surprisingly supportive of the work as containing possible reflections of true traditions believed in the 2nd century: *** w18 March p. 13 par. 3 Questions From Readers *** The Acts of Paul and Thecla was highly regarded in early centuries, as confirmed by the fact that 80 Greek manuscripts of it exist, as well as versions in other languages. Thus, our artistic presentations are in line with some ancient indications of what the apostle looked like. I personally have never experienced a "bad" circuit overseer. All of them have been exemplary and I have always looked forward to their visits, especially when hearing a new one for the first time. But I think all of us old-timers have had experience with congregational drifters, and we often look at them with the same kinds of suspicions. Sometimes it's a young brother who is very vague about his last congregation and who quickly latches on to an association with another eligible sister. Sometimes it's a more elderly brother, perhaps even a special pioneer, looking for an alternate congregation, hoping the trouble he caused in the last congregation won't get reported in too much detail. (Speaking from a real example, this elderly brother also latched onto a "relationship," and place to stay, with a family of sisters: a sister with an unbelieving and ailing husband, and a couple of daughters. It was a recipe for disaster.) The younger brother caused some heart-ache by getting engaged to a sister, and the engagement was later broken off.  It's hard for me not to imagine such cases when I read Jude. So, at first, it was hard for me to see them as drifters into forums like this one to cause other kinds of trouble, but I can definitely see a similarity now.  
    • I’m not really sure what “worshipful” means.  When celebrities come into town, they are mobbed by fans. Are those fans worshipful? I might say yes, but the fans themselves will just say they they are flocking to them out of respect for their accomplishments. If brothers pose for selfies with the GB members (much to the latter’s annoyance, I am consistently told, someone said with the possible exception of Lett) are they “worshipful?” It’s in the eye of the beholder, I think. Though I have a great many faults, admiring personalities is not one of them. I would love to have a GB member stay at my house so I could ignore him. “There’s your room—make yourself at home. If you’d like to visit, that works fine, but you have many things to do and if you ignore us completely that also works fine with us,”  Probably there are few words they could hear that would please them more. And no, @James Thomas Rook Jr., I wouldn’t present them with a list of my QUESTIONS that, as MEN of HONOR, they are obligated to answer,
    • Just for interest, here is an interview with prince Andrew. It's acutely embarrassing the excuses  he makes and the denials.... Read comments, they are entertaining  
    • Yes. Just watched it. I like that you talk about the broad effects of the impact whistleblowing has had in this particular area. It's not just the Witnesses, but many institutions. Many guilty people would have probably got away with sexual abuse 20 years ago, but not so much today. Even royalty have been put under the microscope. History is rife with stories of rich dirty old men having sex with underage girls and getting away with it. When enough people make noise, it can't be ignored.
    • Maybe this was in the sense of these "bad elders" rejecting the counsel given by "good elders" who were quoting Bible books and the Mosaic Law (as transmitted through angels), or these "bad elders" were speaking out against sayings of Jesus and inspired writings of the apostles, as if they held no value to this time they were in, so many decades after Jesus originally spoke them. Also (less likely) Jude quotes the book of Enoch, specifically a part about the judgment of angels, and he appears to refer to another book about the "Assumption of Moses." We don't know how much more of those books were accepted other than the portions referenced, but these books were part of a genre that gave names to dozens of angels and referenced many more hierachies of thousands of angels. Good point! I doubt it. There are too many scriptures, and too much context that shows what Paul was up against in trying to get the congregations to accept and understand the concept of "grace" or "undeserved kindness." (Along with "law" "legalism" "works" "righteousness" "sin" "conscience" etc.) Paul had to write chapters, nearly whole long letters, on the subject, and it even put him for a short while at odds with the Jerusalem council. Probably it is sometimes. But I'd guess there are some exceptions, too. For example, the whistleblowing of the CSA cases all over the world has drawn attention to a lot of things that go on in the world where the abused victims felt powerless. In many institutions, including once-hostile work environments, this is actually changing for the better. The threat of monetary sanctions has made even rich men who could once get away with anything (as Trump claimed), think twice. It has definitely helped in some suburban schools and even corporations I once worked for. I suspect that many priests and elders who once thought they would get away with anything are now more apt to think again before abusing persons.
    • The old method of handling this was to use the expression "present truth." Many adventists including Seventh Day still use the expression. It's based on a mistranslation of 2 Peter 1:12 where the KJV said: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. The tendency among 19th century Adventists was to see a "chronology" element or "time" element in the English expression that did not exist in the original Greek. Therefore, the idea was that: even when in the midst of learning or teaching falsehood, it was still "present truth" at the time, and what is now "present truth" could turn out to be false in the future, but it will always have been "present truth" because it's always the best we had at the time. From the Greek, this is better translated as "the truth that is present in you" (American Standard and NWT).  A similar rush to see a time element in the English translation was done by Barbour and Russell and others who had been associated with Adventists. Here's an example from Leviticus: (Leviticus 26:28) 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins. This was originally the primary source for Russell's 7 times = 2,520 years, and the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about his own insanity was only a secondary source. But we have since learned that Leviticus here didn't refer to chronological "times" but the sense was "7 times as much" as in "I will hit you twice as hard, or three times as hard, or seven times as hard." This was already in the context, but chronologists and numerologists rarely notice the context until they have already formed a time related doctrine. (Leviticus 26:18-21) . . .“‘If even this does not make you listen to me, I will have to chastise you seven times as much for your sins. . . . 21 “‘But if you keep walking in opposition to me and refuse to listen to me, I will then have to strike you seven times as much, according to your sins. Now that we have noticed this, we have been stuck with using Nebuchadnezzar as if his wicked Gentile kingdom somehow represented Christ's Messianic non-Gentile kingdom. (Another contradiction between 1914 and the Bible.) We still tend to make a "chronology word" out of things having to do with time when we translate the Greek word for time as "appointed time" instead of what might better be translated as "opportune time." Note that it's the exact same word "time" in these two verses: (Ephesians 5:16) 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. (Luke 21:24) . . .and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in: Will you find the opportunity to do this? Will you find the time to do this? Not: Will you find the appointed day and hour to do this? We have added a more specific chronological sense that usually isn't necessary in the Greek.  
    • Elon Musk shows himself to rather out of touch with science. He is using his money to make a name for himself by driving forward with some outlandish plans. He is an embarrassment to his own employees sometimes when he quotes pseudo-scientific ideas that have been obsolete for decades. (One of these was the idea of using nuclear explosions to make Mars inhabitable.) But his optimism to get employees to "make it happen" will drive some scientific progress in spite of himself. Even here, however, he has often just attached his name to some idea that came out of Japan or China or some US or European scientific think tank that was never associated with Musk. He attaches his own unrealistic timelines to these ideas, however, and then begins to lose credibility.  This particular idea has some merit, but there is a lot more expense in creating the infrastructure than people realize. There is the mining of the elements that go into solar cells, the manufacture of solar panels, the trucking of materials to such a solar hub, the infrastructure to build out the lines from the hub across the USA. Currently these types of expenses reduce the ROI value of this particular type of renewable energy so much that it makes carbon (coal/oil/petroleum) seem much more desirable for generating power, and for which an infrastructure is already in place. When viable, I would like to see how close to Hoover Dam this could be built to re-use some power lines that emanate from there, and already reach to many southwest states. Perhaps an even better idea would be to find a place near Yuma or Mexicali, so that half of the power would be used to desalinate water for Mexico and the US by piping saltwater from the Gulf of California, then freshwater back out with a mountain or salt and minerals as a byproduct.    
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