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Should we close our ears to rebels? or opposers?

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bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

kilometer.jpg

Possibly fake, but even if it is, it recreates real experiences children have had with teachers.

 

We've all been there and done that. Most Witnesses have come from a false religious background. I came from a Roman Catholic background and had aspirations of becoming a nun. I associated with nuns after school, cleaned the classrooms and sang in the choir, so my background was fully vested in the teachings of the Trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, purgatory, limbo, Jesus was Catholic, the infallibility of the Pope - he was god on earth.

But a life changing experience happened one day, a man came to our door and began to show my mother scriptures proving his point on the areas they discussed. My mother, a strong person who also had deep respect for the Bible listened and in that discussion something touched her heart.

The young man had his mother revisit my mother and discussed what had previously been initiated by her son. Within the same time frame a Seventh Day Adventist was visiting my mother voicing her version of scripture and offering a Bible study. My mother, in order to make her decision on which one to choose, asked each one to explain what the Sabbath meant and should it still be enforced as in the Law.

She listened and looked up Scripture and there was no comparison in teaching, she was confident that Jehovah's Witness had the TRUTH of the matter. She began to study the Bible and was baptized in 1952. My mother began to speak about the Bible to her siblings (who were all different religions and scattered around the U.S.) they began to study the Bible and were baptized at different times and places.(4 brothers, 2 sisters and her father and her three children)

So we've been there and indoctrinated in a variety of different religions before a selfless individual came to our door in obedience to Jesus command at Matthew 19:28,29. Yes, that Good News is being preached in 239 Lands and Islands and in over 900 languages - in over two hundred thousand congregations worldwide.

The noise that you hear on the internet cannot drown out the preaching of the Good News and the gathering of the sheep. Jesus said: John 10:3" But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

 

Apostates and other opposers are very busy in these days and the scripture tells us why Ezekiel 29:4 " And I will put hooks in your jaws and cause the fish of your Nile canals to cling to your scales. And I will bring you up out of the midst of your Nile canals and all the fish of your Nile canals that cling to your very scales. 5 And I will abandon you to the wilderness, you and all the fish of your Nile canals. Upon the surface of the field you will fall. You will not be gathered up nor be collected together. To the wild beasts of the earth and to the flying creatures of the heavens I will give you for food. 6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt will have to know that I am Jehovah,"

 

Yes Indeed! Jehovah has put the hooks in the jaws of Satan and his demonic cohorts and they cannot turn back and as Ezekiel's prophecy makes clear, it is for one reason - identify and destroy.

 

As the apostle Paul points out at 2Corinthians 4: 3 "If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

 

 

 

 

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In a sense Jehovah's Witnesses are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of the major religions like the Catholic Church, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences,  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Church and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

Hosea 4:6 shows that people will be silenced for lack of knowledge.  Second Thessalonions 1: 6-9 shows that people will undergo judicial punishment because of not knowing God and not obeying the good news. The case above shows the good sense of letting the real authority of the Bible speak. God's true sheep know the sound of the  truth/his voice.  Look at the amazing fruit that resulted when one honest-hearted lady  helped her family to know the truth as well. 

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On 6/17/2018 at 10:41 AM, Jack Ryan said:

bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.

 

We are not following worldly advice, we let the Scripture, as an unfailing prophetic book, be the guide.

Galatians 1:6  "I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

 

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HMMMM!!

 

"The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly." Proverbs 13:20

"Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough?"  1 Corinthians 5:6

 

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Melinda, I implore you to reason on your words.  

On 7/15/2018 at 7:42 AM, Melinda Mills said:

In a sense Jehovah's Witnesses are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of the major religions like the Catholic Church, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences,  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Church and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

 

How is your example of the Catholic Church any different than the Watchtower?  For any who reject teachings such as “this generation”, the Armageddon dates that have come and gone, and Watchtower’s desire to put a manmade organization on a pedestal as the source of salvation, and which they proudly call “earthly Zion”, disfellowshipping ensues.  Any failed teaching gives evidence of lack of knowledge from God.  James 1:16-18  Failed doctrine has no relationship with Christ’s truth nor is it good news, but only stumbling forecasts made by stubborn priests already “defrocked” in the eyes of God.  They have haughtily rejected Christ as their head, usurping his authority by expecting obedience of all Christ’s anointed priests, to be given to them.   Ezek 21:25-27; Matt 23:12; 24:24

Here is your comment from a different perspective:

In a sense exJWs are like Alex. They did not stay under the authority of religions like the Watchtower organization, but examined the matter of what the real authority the Bible said, regardless of the consequences, (regardless of being disfellowshipped)  whereas the majority of persons accept the authority of the Watchtower and its erroneous teachings and refuse to look any further. 

Feb 12, 2012  Calvin Rouse, lawyer for the Watchtower in the Menlo Park kingdom hall lawsuit:

“We are a hierarchal religion structured just like the Catholic Church. And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest -- in the parish.”

This set of “consequences” affects anointed ones – the “holy priesthood” of God, as well as many others who have recognized the sound of Christ’s Truth. When choosing Christ’s full authority over men, they can distinguish between the rotten fruit of false/failed doctrine, and fine fruit sourced in Christ. John 15:1-8   Why is it, that the majority of JWs cannot recognize it?  Why is it that God’s anointed priests still inside, turn a blind eye to such falsehood?  Why do they not perceive THEY are the true Zion and that their hearts are the dwelling and Temple of God? 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Eph 2:20-22; Zech 8:3  Simply because they have filled their mind and heart with teachings/”fruit”/”wine” from false leaders, - harlots -  just like the Catholics who listen to the pope. John 7:18; Matt 7:15,16; Jer 2:21; Deut 32:32,33; John 15:5,16; Rev 17:1,2

But in this case, it is gravely serious, because these priests are God’s chosen people.  Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22

You said, 

“Hosea 4:6 shows that people will be silenced for lack of knowledge.” 

But let no one bring a charge,
    let no one accuse another
,
for your people are like those
    who bring charges
against a priest.

 (a Judicial committee of false “priests”/elders who are not anointed, judging God’s anointed priesthood as “spiritually dead” for accepting Christ as their Head, instead of a “wicked slave. Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; Rev 13:  Matt 24:48-51)


You stumble day and night,
    and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother—
    my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

“Because you have rejected knowledge,
    I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,
    I also will ignore your children.
The more priests there were,
    the more they sinned against me;
    they exchanged their glorious God for something disgraceful.
They feed on the sins of my people
    and relish their wickedness.
And it will be: Like people, like priests.
    I will punish both of them for their ways
    and repay them for their deeds.

10 “They will eat but not have enough;
    they will engage in (spiritual) prostitution but not flourish,
because they have deserted the Lord
    to give themselves 11 to prostitution;
old wine and new wine ( old light, new light)
  take away their understanding.
12 My people consult a wooden idol,
    and a diviner’s rod speaks to them.
A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
    they are unfaithful to their God.

Do JWs allow a spirit of prostitution to lead them astray?  Yes.  False prophets/Harlots have convinced you to “serve the organization”, transposing this to mean, serving God. Rev 13;1,4,7,8,11,14-17 Nothing on this earth is to be compared to, or served, except God and His Son.  Isa 42:8; 46:5,20; Luke 4:8; Rom 6:16 The apostles didn’t “serve” the needs of an organization, but they wholeheartedly served God and Jesus. Matt 6:24  Where does it say in the scriptures that an organization, other than the ‘organized’ anointed Body of Christ, the Temple of God, must be recognized as the pathway to salvation? Ps 2:6; Ezek 20:40; Rev 14:1   God and Christ both have absolutely no interest in earthly wealth, investments, or buildings that thrive in Satan’s world. Matt 6:19-21; Acts 17:24,25; Phil 3:19; Col 3:2  His only “investments” are those members of Christ’s Body; where His Holy Spirit dwells, as well as the hearts of those seeking pure Truth through His Son.  John 14:23

On 7/15/2018 at 7:42 AM, Melinda Mills said:

The case above shows the good sense of letting the real authority of the Bible speak. God's true sheep know the sound of the  truth/his voice. 

I would hope we are speaking of the authority of God and Christ, and not that of the governing body.  For them to say that God is responsible at any point in time, for Watchtower’s wayward teachings is an absolute lie; yet, they are guilty of doing so.  Did they let the real authority of the Bible speak, or was it from their own desires?  Ezek 13:3  JW have been disfellowshipped for bringing this to the attention of the elders.   

Is it possible for any JW to read scriptures in support of this truth, and take it into their heart?  Or, is the plentiful “fruit” of false teachers more desirable to “eat”?  It is easy to say one relies on the authority of the Bible; JWs are convinced they do, forgetting all the “bible-based” discarded books and teachings that are no longer in use. 

“God’s anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living. 

They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools.

These people have exchanged God’s truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen!  Rom 1:18,21,25

JWs, you believe you are out of the woods and have left false teachings behind; but you can’t see the forest for the trees.  These particular “trees”/teachers that you seek shelter under, waiting for their spiritual “food” to drop, have an axe waiting at the base of their bitter roots, to chop them down.  Jer 23:15; Matt 3:7-10; Heb 12:14-17;Rev 8:10-11; Rev 19:20

 

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You must be a disfellowshipped person, HUH ? You should be supremely happy - you are now on the outside looking in so  stop pressing your nose against our windows.

Did you want followers? All those who choose to follow a Judas goat will be led to the slaughter.

Sheep, on the other hand, hear the voice of the Fine Shepherd calling their name. John 10:3 "The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

 

So you were preaching false doctrine in the kingdom hall to Jehovah's Witnesses? Not a very smart move. Then you thought it appropriate to exhibit your mad ravings to the elders and were disfellowshipped for being an apostate. I can't imagine why? Of course apostates are not anything new, the apostle Paul was quite eloquent in his description of those in the first century.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

I have a feeling you are not very happy any place you plant yourself, but look at it this way - you weren't happy with us and we were not happy with you.

 

 

 

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    • Loved your contribution above.  The propaganda regarding the  "religion of peace" hides its extreme and barbaric violence.  True, JWs are the true religion of peace for refusing any political division in our ranks (not taking sides) or going to war to fight any of this system's battles. It is encouraging to be able to identify this nation on earth. I studied the "religion of peace" ...... most people in UK call it by this name now because one can get 2 years in prison for islamaphobia.  One can mock a Christian, burn the bible, call jesus an adulterer and make funny pictures of him but do NOT hint at  anything against the "religion of peace".  Oh-  I am comparing the injustice of the world in its bias treatment of JWs again in OCD way...... that will trigger Mr. JAH2......
    • This is not technically true. Admittedly, there was much opinion, but there was also at least one bit of solid information content: It would be very hard to dispute with that one.
    • I think a lot of people suspected that pretty quickly, especially as their top 3 issues appear to be the same, and as time goes on, even their pet peeves match up. I don't know for sure that JB was "DF'd" from the site, but it's the impression I got because there was some kind of warning, and then he was gone. At this point if they are the same, I don't think it matters in the slightest. But the reason I jump in on this topic is because I don't want anyone to be confused with my use of the term DF.  According to JB, he was treated as if DF'd in his congregation, even though he was not officially DF'd by a committee of elders. Not all of the reasons for this treatment were clear. Now that you have suspected that 4Jah2me was DF'd, I just figured that the JB story ought to be a reminder that it's always possible 4Jah2me was never DF'd either. 
    • Tweeted Richard Dawkins one fine day (11/13/19): “You could easily spot any Religion of Peace. Its extremist members would be extremely peaceful”  Can it be? Is Richard Dawkins referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses—universally known for being “extremely peaceful” yet declared “extremists” in Russia? If so, I will take back the relatively few bad things I have said about him. I have not really said THAT many bad things about him. At times, I have even been complimentary. When he blessed the atheist buses rolling out in London, I said that he raised a good point—his was a reaction to existing “hellfire’ buses, with advertising from the church. He did wuss-out, though, with a: “There probably is no God.” Probably? It wasn’t until I began following him on Twitter, though, that I noticed how breathtakingly contemptuous he was toward anyone who disagreed with him—not merely about God, but also on geopolitical things—and then I did say a few mean things. For example, I said of him that “he does not suffer fools gladly, and a fool is anyone who disagrees with him.” However, he has largely repented over this online meanness. I’ve noticed it over the months. He has not banished it entirely, but it is much less prevalent, so that I regret that I ever said what I did.  The temptation to be disdainful of opponents is well-nigh irresistible, particularly if you think that they are willfully choosing ignorance. I have (more or less) mastered the temptation, of course, but I have a source of effective and unending counsel that he does not. This is no more concisely stated than it was at a recent Watchtower Study. A Bible verse considered how we ought “do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you.” (Philippians 2:3) Practically speaking, this advice is not easy to implement. It may even strike one as nonsensical—how can everyone be superior to everyone else? Said that Watchtower: “The humble person acknowledges that everyone is superior to him in some way.—Phil. 2:3, 4.”  Of course. In some way everyone is superior to everyone else. Search for that way, hone in on it like a laser beam, and it will not be so difficult to treat even opponents with respect. “Disagree without being disagreeable” is the catchphrase today. But Professor Dawkins does not have this advantage. Much of his tradition would sway him in just the opposite “survival of the fittest” direction. So he must be given credit for his new, somewhat softer, online personality. Possibly someone who has his best interests at heart—perhaps his wife—said, “Richard, you sure do come across as a cantankerous crank on Twitter,” and he deliberately walked it back. It’s commendable. Now, I don’t think Richard had Jehovah’s Witnesses in mind with his tweet. He probably has formed his views of them through the contributions of their “apostate” contingent, and those views could hardly be blacker. I looked down among his comments to see whether any of those nasties had reared their heads. Perhaps here was an example: “Not entirely true. Extremists usually have their own misinterpretation of scriptures.” I responded to this one: “If “misinterpretation” results in a religion of peace, perhaps it is not a misinterpretation after all. Perhaps the mainline view is a misinterpretation.” Is that not a no-brainer?  Another one, disagreeing with the above tweet: “Actually no. Most extremists do exactly what is written in their book. ‘Misinterpretation’ is used as an argument by believers that cherry pick morals that fit our secular ethics today.” I know this type, too. This is the type that finds slavery in the Bible or war in the Old Testament and rails at the “hypocrisy.” I responded to this fellow as well: “Everything has a historical context and to deliberately ignore such context is to be intellectually dishonest. If our side does it to theirs, we never hear the end of it.” He blew up at this reference to context. Evil is evil, he carried on, across all places and time-frames. These characters are very predictable—you could even write their lines for them and not be too far off. Has “critical thinking” made us all nincompoops? It was once thought the most intelligent thing in the world to consider historical backdrop; one was irresponsible, even deceitful, not to do it. Very well. If he is going to trash, with blinders affixed, the source that I hold dear, I will do the same with his source: “You should turn your critical thinking skills upon Ancient Greece, the definer of it. When time travel is invented, history revisionists will give a friendly wave to American slaveholding forefathers as they race back in time to fetch wicked Greek pedophiles—it was an enshrined value of that world—back in irons.” He was not chastened by this. Hijacking Twitter as his personal courtroom, he cross-examined: “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” I countered: “Is the raping of children as endorsed by Ancient Greek society morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Incredibly, he was not dissuaded. “Last chance!” he shot back. “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” “To the blockheads, I became a blockhead.”—Paul (sort of) —1 Corinthians 9:19-22,” I tweeted back: “Two can play the game of obstinacy. Last chance: Is the rape of children—it was enshrined in Ancient Greek society—morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Then I went away, and when I came back, he had deleted all this tweets so that it was hard for me to reconstruct the thread. However, someone else had pointed out a grave sin I had committed: “Thomas you are guilty of the moral equivalence fallacy.” Am I? I suppose. You can sort of guess by the wording just what that phrase means—I had not heard it before. At least it is in English. I once heard a theologian quip that if there is a Latin phrase and a perfectly clear English phrase that means the same thing, always use the Latin phrase so people will know that you are educated. But my “moral equivalence fallacy” is still is no more than considering historical context, a praiseworthy intellectual technique for all time periods except ours.  Besides, I actually had posted something about slavery long ago. But it is not a topic so simple that it can be hashed out in a few tweets, and so I declined to go there with this fellow, who would debate all the sub-points. If God corrected every human injustice the moment it manifested itself, there would be nothing left. The entire premise of the Bible is that human-rule is unjust in itself and that God allows a period of time for that to be clearly manifested before bringing in his kingdom—the one referred to in the “Lord’s prayer”—to straighten it all out. In the meantime, the very ones who work themselves into a lather at religion “brainwashing” people are livid that God did not brainwash slavery away once humans settled upon it as a fine economic underpinning. If Dawkins’s tweet and my response hangs around long enough before burial in the Twitter feed, I would expect some of our malcontents to observe as they did in Russia, where the only evidence of extremism cited is proclaiming “a religious view of supremacy.” Huge protest will come at how Jehovah’s Witnesses practice shunning and thus “destroy” relationships and even family. But views inevitably translate into consequences and policies. Refusal to “come together” with those who insist on diametrically opposed views is hardly the “extremism” of ISIS—and yet the Russian Supreme Court has declared that it is, with the full backing in principle of those from the ex-JW community—the ones who go crusading, which is perhaps 10%. I’m going to write this up as a post and append it to his thread. Let’s see what happens. Probably nothing, but you never know. Plus, let’s expand on that particular Watchtower some more. The particular article covered was entitled: “Jehovah Values His Humble Servants” (September 2019 issue—study edition) Unlike nearly all religious services, Witness meetings are ones that you can prepare for. You can comment during them. They are studies of the sacred book, not just impromptu rap sessions, acquiescencing to ceremony, or sitting through someone else’s sermon. You can prepare for them, and you are benefited, as in any classroom, when you do. The focus here, as it so often is, is on practical application.  Humility draws persons to us. Haughtiness repels them, and thus makes next to impossible the mantra to “come together.” My own comment, when the time was right, was that haughty people can only accomplish so much—it may be a great deal, for haughty people are often very capable people—but eventually they run up against the fact that nobody else can stand them, and so people are motivated to undercut their ideas, even if they are good ones, out of sheer payback for ugliness. Humble people, on the other hand, may be far less capable individually, but their efforts add up. They know how to cooperate and yield to each other in a way that haughty people do not. Someone else on that Dawkins thread, an amateur wit, played with that them of unlikely extremists: “Jehova's witnesses are peaceful but their extremists are better extremely annoying...” Why fight this? It is a viewpoint. Viewpoints are not wrong, because they are viewpoints—right or wrong doesn’t enter into the equation. Better to roll with it. I was indeed on a roll, and so I tweeted back:  “I will grant that they can be. Still, if you had a choice between a team of JWs approaching your door and a team of ISIS members, you would (hopefully) choose theformer. Those 2 groups, and only those 2 groups are officially declared “extremist” in Russia.” And with that, I included a link to my ebook, “Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.” I am shameless in that. No matter how many books I sell, it is not enough. I don’t sell them, anyway. The book is free, a labor of love. It is an application of the theme: “If you have something important to say, don’t hide it behind a paywall.” It is the only, to my knowledge, complete history of events leading up to and beyond the 2017 ban of the Witness organization in Russia. As to the latest developments there, another one was herded off to prison, who, making the best of a sour situation, or perhaps genuinely finding value there, said: "I want to thank … prosecution. I don't just thank you, but thank you very much, because thanks to you my faith has become stronger … I see I'm on the right path." Of course. It is unreasonable to oppose so vehemently a people totally honest, hard-working, and given to peace—and yet the Bible says that such will exactly happen. How can it not serve to strengthen faith?
    • According to scientific knowledge, the entire universe is in two states every day: something becomes and something disappears. Life on Earth is in the same status. I am disappointed with suffer of creatures on Earth, too. And can't connect with "my picture" of God as i accepted through JW Bible interpretations and my own interpretations, then and now. What if we made wrong pictures about Creator? .... based on wrong or failed text? 
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