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JW Grandparents Who Shun Children Should Likewise be Banned from Contacting Grandchildren


Jack Ryan

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I am beginning to believe that ALL the Scriptures in the Bible, talking about how the "love of the greater number will cool off", and in the end times, a wide range of cruelties will be abundant, that

This is a case of being "righteous overmuch" or "self-righteous" and "haughty" like the Pharisees. Paul put the ideas together in Romans quoted above: (Romans 1:28-2:1) 28 And just as they did

I often chalk up your statements as hyperbole-laden rants. But this I must agree with whole-heartedly. One can make an argument that our process is actually Biblical, but then Jesus said it was OK to

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6 hours ago, Anna said:

shunning family members

I thought disfellowshipping was a congregational and spiritual measure taken in the case of an individual who is unrepentant regarding serious sin.

It seems that many problems result from those who make up their own rules and definitions on this matter 

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12 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I thought disfellowshipping was a congregational and spiritual measure taken in the case of an individual who is unrepentant regarding serious sin.

It seems that many problems result from those who make up their own rules and definitions on this matter 

Any time you have ignorant, under-educated human beings that live in a social bubble isolated from real world problems trying to administer Justice with mercy, mercy is the first casualty, and Justice becomes in the course of things, too many times, only due process ....

It's like a Doctor, a Physician, who has no natural talent, but wishes to be of service. He may graduate the lowest in his class at medical school, and understand how to take tests, and interview at least passably,  but be timid and insecure. But he too has bills to pay, and a life to live, dependent on those above him for  favor and income, and position.

These too, serve to the best of their ability ... and bury their mistakes in incompetence and poor judgement.

.... and they may be few ... or legion ... but they will occur, as Justice and mercy properly meted out, in the real world of flesh and blood .... in however many cases there actually are that become victims of human frailty in the skills of judgement .... too often .... only comes directly from God.

Reality is what it is, and all the Snowflake theories in the world will not change what is real.

Education .. currently disparaged in the "Truth" is not only to make your life immensely easier by not every day scrounging on the ragged edge of destitution ... but is to give you enough comprehensive background information to MAKE YOU SMARTER!

If you do not understand all the many tools a human needs to be able to use... you become a hammer .... and EVERYTHING ... EVERYTHING .... looks like a nail.

 This is why disfellowshipping has become the God dishonoring, hypocritical travesty of human cruelty it is today.

 

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15 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, I understand Jesus said that there will be times when we will have to choose between him and family. And that if we lose family members for his sake, then we will get many more back. But I have often wondered if that  means that relatives will be against us, and will threaten US with shunning unless we forsake Jesus. And then it is up to us who we will put first, Jesus or a family member.

Agree with logic you present here. If non JW shun you because you are JW. But please you must have in mind that most of non JW people or perhaps i can say all non JW people will not shun you because you ARE JW.  To illustrate. My mother is very zealous in preaching to non JW relatives, her sisters and brothers and their family. But she doing that with so much effort that what is too much IS TOO MUCH. But despite this her (my mother's) family receive mom every time and give her hospitality, to stay in their home, to sleep, to eat and to going visit bros and sis in that area and also she going to preach other people in town and around. So, that "unbeliever" home are some kind of free  hotel for my mother preaching service for decades now (my parents accept JW in 1968 so imagine how many years are till  today that mom preach them with no result). 

Shunning is not what non JW people doing to JW because of religion issue. Maybe sometimes non JW relatives try to somehow avoid annoying, boring JW family member who want to save him/them with Bible. This shunning stuff is something that JW people doing to non JW society in general and specially, with strong emotions to dfd/dis JW. 

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On 8/29/2018 at 10:20 PM, Space Merchant said:

They do not completely cut off their child, as some, even former JWs have made claim to this only to be targeted by disgruntled JWs. When someone is expelled from a church, they are cut-off from church ties entirely, although can still attend, they are not allowed to partake and or be part of sermons and or some actions taken within the church, but family ties still remain, even regarding that of children. When the child is obviously older and dwells upon Apostasy, should he or she chooses that path, family ties still remain, but there will be a clear atmosphere when it comes to those who practice a faith vs. those who are interfaith and or is disgruntled towards the faith.

Disfellowshipped individuals are far from just ignored at the meetings. What do you mean family ties still remain? Disfellowshipped children are to be shunned in every sense of the word. They are treated like they are dead already. What difference does it make whether they are young or old or living at home vs. living somewhere else? You shouldn't shut off your love for your child just because they're not living the same life as you. "Despite our pain of heart, we must avoid normal contact with a disfellowshipped family member by telephone, text messages, letters, e-mails, or social media." Watchtower 2017 Oct p.16

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I have to add to this one more information. Yes, sometimes non JW parents making very big pressure on their son/daughter because he/she has Bible study with JW or has plan to baptized as JW. In some very rare cases parents was made threat how they abandon them, leave them without inheritance or expel them from home. Or how they will buy him/her new car if they will give up on JW. 

But strong reaction (even such rare extremely measure) from non JW parents are understandable. Because JW parents would also do almost everything to "save" their children from this wicked world and make them to stay in congregation.

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54 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Disfellowshipped individuals are far from just ignored at the meetings.

Anyone expelled from a church can still go to the church as they please, for the one expelled, since having all church ties cut, cannot participate in church activities, sermons or what have you, you are shunned since, again you have all church ties cut-off, this goes for communicating with other church members, church activities, positions in the church or what have you.

54 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

What do you mean family ties still remain? 

Family ties as in there is some activity still present with the family itself, for anyone in connection the church, mainly friends and or pastors is cut off entirely should the one who has been expelled becomes repentant, as is in Bible times, hence what the church has been entrusted. Opponents of the faith will say family ties are cut off entirely, but there has been many, who being former members of the faith, who said otherwise, furthermore, it is said that if the family is of the church and one of them is expelled, it will cause an uneasy vibe, but the ties within the family still remain.

57 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

 Disfellowshipped children are to be shunned in every sense of the word.

But according to the words of the faith as well as former members who do not become disgruntled opponents, says otherwise. I remember saying someone had been expelled twice for 1 reason, having sexual relations outside of marriage, and has shown to be repentant. Mind you, this does not only cause a reaction from the church, but from the family as well, for there are people out there that take something of this level very seriously.

As for children, they are indeed cut from the church, but not from the family, last I check, this faith does not follow category 2 of expelling which is the incorrect one, nor do they have anything in relations to the Herem/Censure whereas to you 100% cut-off out of the community as a whole, not just the church having very VERY little chance of repentance - and that little chance would have to be godlike level in your favor, not even visits from the Rabbis, I believe I put a link in this regard somewhere on this thread involving expelling (excommunication) and shunning commands.

Other than that, expelling can be for minor to major things and often takes place regarding of who is of the church handling the situation, for someone in Church A can give warning on a 16 year old who was exposed for smoking in school, while for the same situation, in Church B, the person can be expelled for the same action, thus all church ties are cut, the family will be uneasy about all that has taken place, but over time they will help the expelled, mainly should the expelled feel ready for repentance.

Other than that, any expelled one can sit anywhere in the church, even next to others and or family, for it is not known to any Christian faith to mimic that of the Herem in any case whatsoever, for Christians who sin are cut off from the church and members of that church but still able to attend, whereas any man or woman caught in a Herem cannot do such things, at all. Both of them offer repentance, but only one of them is ridiculously difficult to reinstate oneself.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

They are treated like they are dead already.

Technically in regards to the Bible, this is so. This is what is called Spiritual Death, or Total Spiritual Inactivity, which when one is expelled, actions for excommunication is taken and pretty much separates one from God, regardless of who it is. In brief detail of Christian Theology, Spiritual Death is separation from God. Humans are separated from God because of Sin, which entered the world through the Fall of Man, and are reconciled to God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then we have repentance come into play; it can also occur in terms of a Change in spiritual state or condition (other similar things being spiritually ill, lost, hungry, etc.)

So when a person does sin, mainly grave and or serious, a person of the church, he or she would be expelled from the church and all activities they have in the church, be it talks, sermons and or other, will cease, so is the communication with any member of the church that is not of blood relation.

That being said, because of what Jesus entrusted and what Apostle Paul continued forth, some people, today, watered down the teachings, which spawned the other 2 forms of expelling, which are absolutely incorrect.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

What difference does it make whether they are young or old or living at home vs. living somewhere else?

There is no difference, be it a grown person or child, expelling and everything that comes with it is in place, for that is what is entrusted.

As for living, like I said, the family ties still remain, but church ties do not, and like I said before, it applies to children.

For in the household itself, Christians, who have one of their own who had been expelled/shunned by the church, would still be part of the normal day to day routines the family is accustomed to, such as errands, choirs, other things, even activities.

Faith opponents will tell you what they want you to here, and at the same time will drown out and keep hidden the voices of those who, cut off from the church, speak truth about family ties, why else you think when such ones do appear, faith opponents attack them constantly?

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

You shouldn't shut off your love for your child just because they're not living the same life as you.

No one is shut-off, granted on how many times I had state family ties, meaning the family unit as a whole are still in total communication with each other, regardless. Expelling will make the family uneasy, but it does not shake them, the same can be said if someone in the family does something grave, be it them of the church or not, they still maintain as a family.

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

"Despite our pain of heart, we must avoid normal contact with a disfellowshipped family member by telephone, text messages, letters, e-mails, or social media." Watchtower 2017 Oct p.16

And when one looks up this publication, we see the next paragraph speaking in terms of hope, seeing the signs of change and or repentance in the one who has done wrong. The paragraph of where you have pulled that small quote from even points to the very passage that is explicit on expelling/shunning: 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.

That being said, for I stated before, there is 3 forms of expelling/excommunication, which enables the shunning command, and only one out of the three is correct, and it would seem only a FEW know which it is that is correct.

I had stated before, if excommunication is not something that bodes well with you, you should be dealing with the Christ or Apostle Paul, of which one had entrusted it, while the other put what was entrusted into full practice.

But yes, Excommunication is never easy for anyone, but it is what it is for this is what was put in place, mainly of which The Head of the Church instructed in terms of Binding and Loosening, that being, the Church, and the Church, in terms of it's people.

I will link the article again here: http://shamelesspopery.com/biblical-excommunication/

I had the Armstrong blog one, but that one I lost - sadly. But I do invite you to do the research on why Church Expelling/Shunning does exist and why it is in practice, and why is it that some follow the 2 incorrect forms and or water down what Expelling actually is.

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18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

stick around .... we are already Baptizing 6 and 8 year olds ... how far away can Baptizing babies be?

THEN we can disfellowship them !

Perhaps because even children can learn and apply what they've learned (reading comprehension and ability to or and or speak out things to form sentences and the like) while on the other side of the spectrum, Babies cannot. Unless we have. If a child can read, apply and understand Cat in the Hat by Dr. Seuss, they can understand scripture, I had to read the Bible around a very young age, such can be done to another child also, just as Islam and the Qu'ran to a 6 year old and or anyone of that age.

But baptizing Babies is wrong on so many levels...

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The Baptism symbolizes one's total dedication to God Yahweh (El Shaddai). It symbolizes dying to one’s former way of life and becoming alive to do God’s will, as read in 1 Peter 4:2, which is in total respects to the historical meaning as to why John baptized his own in the River.

so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.

Babies or infants baptism  is not to be based on the faith of the parents, mainly since the baby and or infant is far, far away from being old enough to make informed decision in this matter or have the thinking ability to do such. In Acts it says that the ones who were baptized were men and women, never does it state infants, read Acts 8:12:

But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Baptism was for those capable of hearing the word of God and being able to embrace the Word and repenting, etc., and it is unlikely that such can be one by mere infants (Acts 2:14, 22, 38, 41). The Bible tells us that our Father considers the young as Holy, those of whom are of Christian parents. (1 Corinthians 7:14).

For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

But that being said, Baby/Infant Baptism, babies who do not even know the most difficult answer for 2+2, are not suppose to be baptized. Babies who cannot speak and do not know what comes after A and B, should not be baptized. But, any child, who is a bit older, having the ability to read, write, understand things, even as such to read and accept God's Word, can be baptized.

 

EDIT:

I notice we went from squares to circles in our avatars. Didn't see the page change, or notice it, til now. But hey, circle is the future, squares is soooooo last year.

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