If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

[Jesus.defender]

 ("They lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn't come as they had implied over and over again," said Jim Penton, an ex-Witness who writes entries on Jehovah's Witnesses for the Encyclopedia Americana.)
 

[John Houston]

Blindly looking for something else. I was alive then, my father an elder did not teach us as children that 75 was the end of it all. Did not sell the house, I went to college the year before, not bethel. We were guided in what was truly going on, by what was taught. I was always highly impressed as to why many had that outlook of dates, when the Bible never gave such teachings. Though God is a timely God, his timepiece is one way above us. Just as Haggai wrote. So we learned very early about dates. Told by Jesus to be alert, awake, not calendar watchers.

First century Christians look forward to the end and they were ridiculed because it did not come as soon as many thought it would. So we must continue to endure. Those who left, had their own agenda, same as those who left before entrance into the promised land. Did not stay focused on Jehovah and what his principles are. That is true today. Not waiting on a date, never have been. Only one who has a clock is Jehovah. His "appointed time", belongs to him. All we are told to do is be alert, don't give up, endure to the end. When that time comes don't let it find us asleep as a thief in the night, right? 

Are you awake? Alert? Enduring? Or are you out of oil, needing to go off and buy some from the oil merchant? Hmmmmm??? Think about it. When they left the city, it was not a time for hesitation. Now is the time for actionable decisions. Either or. That is your choice. I have made mine, trying my best to stay the course on this road. Driver of the bus is swerving, but he is staying on the road.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

On 6/26/2018 at 2:08 PM, John Houston said:

Driver of the bus is swerving, but he is staying on the road.

The question was:

"If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?"

The answer is:

"We" actually did ... exemplified by MANY things of record, which can be denied ... but it  is disingenuous.

During the run-up to 1975 the slogan was " .. STAY ALIVE 'TILL '75."

I have decided to merely try to do the best I know how ... consider 90% of theology to be encapsulated in James 1:27, TRY not to get "thrown under the bus", and where theology assumes cartoon characteristics ( Caleb and Sophia, Overlapping Generations, Blood fractions NOT being blood, and other silly stuff ...) , resolve to try to stay on the road to life ... but stay WAY BACK from the clown car.

And verify the route with  my own map, from now on.

 

[JW Insider]

A 1988 Yearbook example from one representative country explains it pretty well:

*** yb88 pp. 189-191 ***

• All seemed well in the spring of 1975. The Bethel family moved into their spacious new facilities, and Brother Lloyd Barry visited . . .  to give the dedication talk. The 1975 service year ended with an outstanding field report—including 8,120 baptized that year. Thus, in just three years’ time 19,600 were baptized. Well over half of the . . .  Witnesses had been in the truth for less than three years.
• However, the first few months of the 1976 service year began with a marked decrease in publishers and home Bible studies. This downward trend was to continue for over three years, bottoming out in a 26-percent decrease in publishers, from 32,693 in August 1975 to 24,285 in November 1978. Memorial attendance dropped too, from over 68,000 in 1975 to 49,545 in 1978 [27 percent drop]. The brothers at the branch were perplexed. Would the trend be reversed?
• Of course, neither they nor the Society were just letting it slide by. The Society’s letter of April 4, 1977, stated:
•    "We hope the brothers are careful in their teaching. Evidently some were very strong on the 1975 date, and so a good foundation was not laid. The foundation, of course, should be faith in Christ Jesus and the ransom sacrifice, and the dedication should be with understanding.”
• A very candid observation indeed! Too much emphasis was placed on a date by some Bible teachers. Many newly baptized ones took up the truth on a wave of emotion. Even some elders had their hopes pinned to 1975. . . . The effect: apathy among the brothers.
• THE ROAD BACK, LONG BUT CERTAIN
• More than 24,000 Witnesses, solid in the faith, were not shaken by any date. Still, the road back to a new peak of publishers was to take eight long years and was not reached until August 1983.

Very "candidly," the Society was still blaming the problem on "some Bible teachers." And the fact that newly baptized ones had taken up "the truth" based on a wave of emotion over a current falsehood. And the fact that even some elders had their hopes pinned to 1975. But if you look carefully, none of that was said in the 1977 letter, which only blamed it on the fact that "some were very strong on the 1975 date." Even the historical rewrite of this letter appearing in the 1988 Yearbook never blames it on the source, just some Bible teachers, some newly baptized ones, and some elders.

[TrueTomHarley]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Very "candidly," the Society was still blaming the problem on "some Bible teachers."

Since "some Bible teachers" were screwing up the works, I wonder how that might be refined with today's teaching committees so that Fred Franz doesn't expound without checking in with the rest of the brothers. Or did he?

Say what you will about Brother Franz; nobody can say that he was not some Bible teacher.

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Say what you will about Brother Franz; nobody can say that he was not some Bible teacher.

True, but they were not even candid about this until 1988. The "candid" letter of 1977 never even mentioned "some Bible teachers."

It was quite similar to the counsel the previous year:

*** w76 7/15 p. 440 A Solid Basis for Confidence ***

• BE CAREFUL TO KEEP A BALANCED VIEW
• 10 Jehovah’s word or message is true when it speaks about our entering into God’s rest now and remaining in it through the “great tribulation,” after which Christ’s thousand-year reign will transform the earth into a paradise garden. God’s word is indeed ‘sharp like a two-edged sword.’ It will show what we really are, revealing what our thoughts and the intentions of our heart are. Are we serving Jehovah God because we love him, trust him and have full confidence in what he says? Or are we ‘becoming weary in well-doing,’ looking for a certain date primarily as bringing a relief to ourselves, with little concern for the lives of other people? (Gal. 6:9) Are we appreciative of all the good things we have had from Jehovah and from association with his people? Have not the things we have learned helped us in our family lives? Do we not love the many genuine friends we have now gained as a result of knowing the truth?—Mark 10:29, 30.
• 11 It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bible’s warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.
• 12 What do Jesus’ own words show concerning the proper attitude as to the end—to look for a date, or what? He said: “Pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man.”—Luke 21:34-36.
• 13 Did Jesus mean that we should adjust our financial and secular affairs so that our resources would just carry us to a certain date that we might think marks the end? If our house is suffering serious deterioration, should we let it go, on the assumption that we would need it only a few months longer? Or, if someone in the family possibly needs special medical care, should we say, ‘Well, we’ll put it off because the time is so near for this system of things to go’? This is not the kind of thinking that Jesus advised.

It was blamed on the selfishness of brothers looking for their own relief, some who had a mistaken view, but these "some" people obviously missed the point of the Bible's warnings due to their own "thinking" that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.

This is why I brought up the question of "honesty" in the title of another 1975 topic. Because the Society was willing to conceal their own responsibility for several years, evidently to avoid embarrassment, many brothers were very quick to follow their lead and also avoid embarrassment, claiming that they were never fooled into such wrong thinking. I noticed that by 1977, even brothers who cashed in insurance policies, put off dental work, went into debt, and even some who sold their houses in 1973 through 1975 quickly claimed that they never bought into all that talk about 1975. Within a few short years after 1980, I heard brothers begin claiming that there never was a 1975 problem except for just a few disgruntled brothers and ex-brothers who had been serving Jehovah with a date in mind. Even now, I have very close Witness relatives in responsible positions who lived through it but now believe that the Society "never really said anything about 1975," and that it was started by some of the brothers on their own.

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/7/2018 at 10:45 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

I wonder how that might be refined with today's teaching committees so that Fred Franz doesn't expound without checking in with the rest of the brothers. Or did he?

Fred Franz was called the "Oracle" even while I was there at Bethel, although it was with the utmost respect until about 1978 when I first heard it used sarcastically. His very odd demeanor, and his own sarcastic and pontificating haughty manner, made him considered to be the channel of all "new truths" at the time. Knorr deferred to him to write his speeches. No "deep" book on prophecy could be written by anyone else even long after the failure of 1975 was obvious. No one would write on any prophetic subject (OT prophecy or Revelation) of any length without using Franz' previous writing as a basis. No one has really tried to replace "Revelation  - Its Grand Climax at Hand" yet, and it's going on 30 years since he died.

I worked directly with (for) Brother Schroeder when he as good as admitted that he wanted to be the next Fred Franz, assuming Fred Franz did not outlive him. Of course, that meant removing Raymond Franz who was the obvious but unassuming heir apparent. He privately expressed jealousy that Raymond Franz had worked on the Aid book. Schroeder tried his hand at coming up with "new truths" when he went abroad, especially his yearly trips to Europe. He came up with several ideas that would have been considered apostasy if promoted by anyone else, and nearly got in big trouble himself. He looked for areas where he could make his mark that he was "like" Fred Franz.

I don't know him, but I think there is talk that Brother Splane should now be seen as the primary one who needs to approve prophetic explanations. But fortunately it does not seem like he is involved exclusively as Fred Franz was. The committee is much safer.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Once you drop agendas in the search for TRUTH .... you will actually come to know what is true.

The reason humans keep sheep ... is to shear, or eat them ... or both.

... unless you are Taliban ... but that's another story.

WE do that with disingenuous Kingdom Hall confiscation walletectomies.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... follow the money .... money always answers the question "why?".

[Evacuated]

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

very close Witness relatives in responsible positions who lived through it but now believe that the Society "never really said anything about 1975," and that it was started by some of the brothers on their own.

This is weird. And it helps me to understand the sensitivity (approaching bitterness) some obviously have on this matter.

For me, the idea that fireworks would start in 1975 was great news, for about 18 months, between 1972 and early 1974.

I came into the truth literally from the street. All I had,  I carried. Everything in life was a bonus from that day on, so as I didn't have anything to give up or cut back on at the time,  it was all good to me.

I can remember the sarcastic comment one of my worldly friends made in 1973 when I mentioned the closelness of the end. He said "When I see you on the street in 1976, I will be laughing like a drain!" My response at the time was a lame  "Well, at least we'll both still be here!"

I must admit I felt awkward when I did see him from a bus window after 1975. He fulfilled his promise as he caught sight of me. By then I had improved my understanding of matters as previously discussed. So I didn't get "off the bus" figuratively speaking, like the many Koreans cited in the '88 yearbook account. I was just glad that abandoning date-oriented thinking occurred early on in my development as a Christian, particularly prior to '75, as the non-event served as a vindication rather than an embarrassment or disappointment. Actually, I wonder how many of those who did get off the bus at the wrong stop managed to get on again as the years passed? It would be interesting to see a contribution here from someone who did that.

But "Society" bashing over dates seems Quixotic to me. The "Society" is just an instrument people use to get a job done in today's world.

The people are the problem, with their quaint mix of attitudes. Who cares really if the people behind the "Society" got something wrong about dates, 43 years ago? "They" certainly don't really, do they? "They" have moved on, and so have many others. And who really cares if some of the written accounts have been subjected to some selective editing? I have my personal experience to balance the exaggeration on both sides. Quite frankly, if you weren't there, why care? There is no doubt that Jehovah will bring an end to this system, and every day that passes in the current one is a day nearer it's (or my) end. As Paul said:

"Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another;...................do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers." Rom. 13.8;11.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Gone Away:

I very much appreciate your perspective, and wish I could be so cavalier ... but faith in Jehovah God and his Christ is much to be desired ... and faith in men who are duplicitous and dishonest continually for  a half century and more is idolatry.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 9/7/2018 at 12:11 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Blood fractions NOT being blood, and other silly stuff

Betty Crocker reached for the parsley 

“You can’t touch that, it’s cake” restaurant manager Rook shouted.

”It’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients,” she replied.