If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

[Evacuated]

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

wish I could be so cavalier

Don't misjudge. I have given it considerable consideration over many years.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

On 9/7/2018 at 12:11 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Blood fractions NOT being blood, and other silly stuff

Betty Crocker reached for the parsley 

“You can’t touch that, it’s cake” restaurant manager Rook shouted.

”It’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients,” she replied. 

Instead ... think of a police car ... which you can assemble from parts, just like a cake , and once assembled both the cake parts become cake, and the police car parts become a police car.

A Police car is not just a car ... it is a car DEDICATED for police use., and the Chief of Police has rules and regulations for its use, care and maintenance, and who can use one, and who cannot.  I can imagine County Secretaries or Utility Workers NOT being permitted to use a police car. 

Unauthorized use of an automobile can be considered Grand Theft/Auto, with a two year prison sentence ... at the discretion of the Chief of Police.

Jehovah has set the standards of how blood can and cannot be used ..... and it is quite clear that he considers it as his PERSONAL PROPERTY. 

Being Omnivores, which is clearly evident from the created design of our teeth, we were CLEARLY designed to eat meat, and AFTER the Flood, with the limited supply of animals available, and a year long by necessity enforced vegetarian diet ... God ONCE AGAIN gave mankind permission to eat meat ... as some animals had made copies of themselves during the restful, romantic  Love Boat voyage.

Jehovah set strict rules for the use and handling and sanctity of blood.

But I digress ......

If Jehovah had said "Thou shalt NOT use MY police car!", I seriously doubt he would have been too happy if he caught you sitting on the ground with a set of mechanic's tools, a fender in your lap, and parts all around you, looking up with a sheepish ... " But Lord!, I am not UUUUUUUUSSSSSING your police car .... just some of the FRACTIONS!".

 

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, Gone Away said:

And it helps me to understand the sensitivity (approaching bitterness) some obviously have on this matter.

I think it might be a good thing, up to a point, to have a sensitivity approaching bitterness. This would be especially true if we realize the depth of the loss of so many who went out from us. These "little ones" were truly stumbled, at least partly because many of us went along with a message that basically said the very thing that Christ warned us against. In this small way, we were being "anti-Christ." 

Christ had said, "If anyone says to you, 'The appointed time has approached' . . ., do not follow them." So, in 1973 we studied a book called "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached." In Russell's day, they often used a translation that said: "If anyone says to you, 'The time is at hand' . . . do not follow them." So Russell's second most famous book was called "The Time Is At Hand." Rutherford had done the same to an even greater degree with 1925. In effect, we as an organization had denied Christ 3 times. And what did Peter do when he realized the significance of his own three-time denial of Christ?

• (Matthew 26:75) 75 And Peter called to mind what Jesus had said, namely: “Before a rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly.

• (Matthew 18: 6-14) But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea. 7 “Woe to the world because of the stumbling blocks! Of course, it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes! . . . 10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven. . . . 14 Likewise, it is not a desirable thing to my Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish.

Bitterness of soul is also the appropriate response to loss of faithful ones, and the reproach of that same loss.

• (Micah 2:4-7) 4 In that day people will recite a proverb concerning you, And they will bitterly lament over you. They will say: “We are completely devastated! He caused the portion of my people to change hands—how he removes it from me! . . .  6 “Stop preaching!” they preach, “They should not preach these things; Humiliation will not overtake us!”  7 Is it being said, O house of Jacob: “Has the spirit of Jehovah become impatient? Are these his deeds?” Do not my own words bring good to those walking uprightly?

• (Ezekiel 21:6, 7) 6 “And you, son of man, sigh while you tremble, yes, sigh bitterly before them. 7 And if they say to you, ‘Why are you sighing?’ you will say, ‘Because of a report.’ For it will certainly come,. . .

  (Isaiah 22:4) That is why I said: “Turn your eyes away from me,
  And I will weep bitterly.
  Do not insist on comforting me
  Over the destruction of the daughter of my people.

There are times when such bitterness of soul, if combined with compassion, is clearly better than those remarks that indicate that we are uncaring about such ones who went out from us because it was their own fault, or even showing that we despise these little ones by calling them anti-Christ.

When Frederick Franz was pushing this 1975 agenda, he obviously knew that the biggest push-back to overcome would be that some of the brothers could use Jesus' own words against the idea, by saying that 'no one knows the day or the hour.' He had to "get out in front" of that objection, and he did it by trying to minimize Jesus' words in Matt 24:34. He may have been arguing that these words of Jesus no longer applied to us now that we had reached this new time period when, in his opinion, we so clearly do know concerning that day and hour:

*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***

• 1975! . . . AND FAR BEYOND!
• . . . The Watch Tower Society over the years has endeavored to keep its associates abreast with the latest scholarship that proves consistent with historic and prophetic events recorded in the Scriptures. Major problems in sacred chronology have been straightened out . . . .
• One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!

My own father was counseled and disciplined by the District Overseer for adding that same verse to a Circuit Assembly talk in St Louis, Missouri in 1970 (plus or minus six months). It tended to tamp down the excitement over 1975.

I also had heard my own father give counsel to another elder (a returned Gilead missionary) about not getting overly excited over 1975, and this was on about January 2, 1975. The other elder actually thought my father was in the wrong and argued with him about it. (My father had hired the other elder who thought my father was somehow "ashamed of the good news" by not wanting people to know that "this was the year" in his own workplace.)

Of course, all of this stuff specifically about 1975 and 1925 is nearly ancient history. Our real concern should be whether we are willing to be honest about it now, and just how alert we are now to follow the spirit of Jesus' words about not following those who claim they have some unique knowledge about the times and seasons. (And who therefore believe they have the special knowledge to say "the time is at hand" or "the due time has approached.") We are still in danger, of course, because there are many who would give the words of men a higher priority than Jesus' own words. And many of the brothers, even today, will look at the disastrously false and unscriptural "Millions" campaign and shrug it off with words about how at least it pushed them zealously to greater activity. In some ways, many of the brothers are just as anxious to push the same messages:

*** w97 1/1 p. 11 par. 18 Let All Glorify Jehovah! ***

• In the early 1920’s, a featured public talk presented by Jehovah’s Witnesses was entitled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.” This may have reflected overoptimism at that time. But today that statement can be made with full confidence.

Even the "overlapping generation" doctrine is being tied to a time schedule as Brother Splane and others have pointed out that even the second group of overlappers are already getting very old and many are already dying out. As more of the older anointed brothers continue to die out, we are creating the same kind of time limit all over again to the date for Armageddon. At least internally, we should all be bitterly weeping at such things.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

17 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

At least internally, we should all be bitterly weeping at such things. 

Amen to that.

... but NO ONE at Warwick is !

NO ONE!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

NO  ONE !

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And what did Peter do when he realized the significance of his own three-time denial of Christ?

What did Christ do?

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

millstone that is turned by a donkey

Didn't Rutherford hang the donkey round his own neck at some point?

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think it might be a good thing, up to a point, to have a sensitivity approaching bitterness.

I agree, as long as it is a repentant kind, not a self-pitying, malicious, vindictive kind. As you say "combined with compassion". Rather like the compassion of Jesus, who cured "every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity among the people" including those which may have been self-inflicted. Spiritual healing, more prevalent today of course, would have the same characteristics I am sure, and would include the correction of OCDD (Obsessive Compulsive Date Disorder).

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, all of this stuff specifically about 1975 and 1925 is nearly ancient history.

Amen to that, although any first-hand experience and insight regarding  the behaviour of brothers at these times is both interesting and valuable. I remember the 1968 WT which, along with the Oct 8, 1968 Awake (Is It Later Than You Think?) were probably "toolbox" of the day items for many brothers at the time, and, along with their over-emphatic enthusiasm, influenced my early impressions of the imminence of Armageddon. These views were, thankfully in my case, adjusted before too much damage was done.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

tied to a time schedule

This is a very relevant caution. But of course needs, like everything else, a balanced and sober approach. It seems to me that we need to find the "sweet spot" between these two extremes:

"we ask you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here"  2Thess.2:1-2.

as opposed to:

"know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”" 2Pet. 3:3-4.

 Dates come and go, and probably always will (Gen.8:22), but "the one who does the will of God remains forever" 1John 2:17.

Jonah was disappointed when things didn't turn out the way he wanted, (Jonah 4:1), so this is nothing new for God's people. I got over it, presumably you did, so there is no reason why we should not expect others to. We can all be thankful that the possibility remains for all who wish to stay alive far longer than '75, whatever the means. Rev 22:17. ?

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Didn't Rutherford hang the donkey round his own neck at some point?

Privately, that old mariner knew he had to wear an albatross-like "A" around his neck. But he did not wear the "A" in public as a scarlet letter.  Instead, just as with other times, the Watch Tower publications blamed the 'rank-and-file' for believing as they did. The next three of the following examples were picked by jwfacts.com at https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/blame-members.php :

“It was stated in the 'Millions' book that we might reasonably expect them to return shortly after 1925, but this was merely an expressed opinion; besides it is still shortly after 1925. ... Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything.” Watch Tower 1926 pp.196,232

“So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.”” Yearbook 1975 p.146

“Ever since the 1870's, Bible Students had been serving with a date in mind - first 1914, then 1925. Now they realized that they must serve for as long as Jehovah wishes.” Watchtower 1993 Nov 1 p.12

That last one, in the image above from a 1920 Bulletin (later, Our Kingdom Ministry) shows that the same thing was done after the failure of the 1914 date expectations. To the public, the WTS had only delivered a prophecy that a world war would start in 1914. This, as you know, is so misleading as to be a complete falsehood.

(You can also see where the expression "Stay alive til '75" was already foreshadowed 50 years earlier with the above: "and if you can keep alive until 1925. . .")

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason;

Does the expression "the friends" include the writers of the Watchtower and other literature which clearly present all these erroneous expectations? Or does not "Bible Students" include them?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Does the expression "the friends" include the writers of the Watchtower and other literature which clearly present all these erroneous expectations? Or does not "Bible Students" include them?

Of course it should include them. But it would give opposers ammunition if the writers of Watchtower articles ever took personal responsibility for things they said. So far, I have only seen one Watchtower writer take personal responsibility in a public way, and apologize for mistakes he made while in the Writing Department. And he didn't do this until after he was disfellowshipped.

Whether it was the intention to have the public and other Witnesses conclude that the writers of Watch Tower publications were including themselves might become clearer if we look at a few more examples. I will just pick up a few more WT quotes that jwfacts.com had selected:

These first two are with respect to the failed predictions about 1914:

• “There is no doubt that many throughout this period were overzealous in their statements as to what could be expected. Some read into the Watch Tower statements that were never intended.” Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose p.52
• “There were also other expectations concerning 1914. Alexander H. Macmillan, who had been baptized in September 1900, later recalled: "A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October. Had some been attracted by the thought of their own early salvation rather than love for God and a strong desire to do his will?” Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.61

The idea is clear that "some" were reading into Watch Tower statements things which the Watch Tower publications never intended. There will always be "some" truth to such a statement. Yet the Watch Tower statements, especially those from Circuit and District Assemblies of the time, had derided people as lacking faith, lacking trust in the Lord, if they did not read those intentions into their statements. The very motives of Watch Tower followers were questioned because they believed what the Watch Tower said.

About "1975" it was already pointed out that the 1976 and 1977 responses never made any effort to clarify that WTS writers and leaders were to be included in the explanation of the mistake:

• If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” Watchtower 1976 Jul 15 p.441

Knowing that this was a missed opportunity, the Watch Tower Yearbook in 1980 finally added this about statements made during the 1979 summer conventions. (The brother who included this in the original talk outline was not disfellowshipped but was dismissed from Bethel later in 1980 possibly for admitting his beliefs about 1914 under interrogation):

• "The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975." Yearbook 1980 pp.30-31

Then the Watchtower itself, just a few months later, said in the March 15, 1980 issue:

• There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility . It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.
• In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.

The first quote about probabilities vs possibilities was an echo of talk surrounding the 1925 predictions, too. But it also reminds me of what Ray Franz says about recordings of the talks that Fred Franz had been giving, found here on page 13 of 17 in the pdf,  http://web.archive.org/web/20031209184316/http://users.volja.net/izobcenec4/coc/9.pdf :

• In his talk, the vice president spoke of 1975 as a “year of great possibilities, tremendous probabilities.” He told his audience that, according to the Hebrew calendar, they were “already in the fifth lunar month of 1975,” with less than seven lunar months remaining. He emphasized several times that the Hebrew year would close with Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, on September 5, 1975.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Ok, OK, OK.

We all know what really happened .... and the arrogant cluelessness was covered up with despicable duplicity, resulting in hundreds of thousands of Brothers and Sisters, and possibly over time,  MILLIONS of Brothers and Sisters, literally DRIVEN from the Truth and away from Jehovah God. (At least those with sensitive, educated consciences....), by the actions of the Governing Body and their "Helpers".

I either personally remember it from my own experiences,  or over time personally watched it happen.

Then there was the 9-1/2 years that the WTB&TS was formally associated with the United Nations, that ended with the scandal when it came out in the U.K. Guardian newspaper , causing several more tens of thousands of Brothers and Sisters with educated consciences to be driven away.

And currently there is the global pedophile problem and cover up, which in my opinion, the denial and coverup is worse than the comparative magnitude of the problem.   Added to this is the blatant perversion of Justice in the Nations' court systems by the Society's Lawyers and Legal Staff.when Plaintiffs seek what limited Justice can be had,

At "my" legally confiscated local WTB&TS Profit Center, known locally as the Kingdom Hall, "we" have a bullet resistant glass front door that has to be kept locked with three Brothers sitting in chairs in the foyer as presumably unarmed  security guards (ammo catchers, if there ever is a crisis ...). If my wife needs to go to the car to get her reading glasses, which she did this week, she has to pass through security, and have the door unlocked for her (or anybody).

Where does it all end?

Why should I risk a heat stroke to try and battle through all that is going on to get converts one at a time, when the Governing body is driving them away by the thousands,  faster than they can be attracted.

My wife and her mother left the Catholic Church forever, because of the church's evil duplicity

What's next ... finding proof that the Governing Body has siphoned off billions of dollars of contributions to line insider cronies' personal pockets?

Where does it all end?

 

 

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Whether it was the intention to have the public and other Witnesses conclude that the writers of Watch Tower publications were including themselves might become clearer if we look at a few more examples.

Some of the conclusions drawn by  jw facts  on the basis of "supporting" quotes you provide here appear to be preformed before proven.

For example I can't quite see that an accusation that the Watchtower "blames it's members" for believing erroneous claims regarding 1914 or 1925 has any sinister element. After all, the Watchtower has no mind of it's own. It is only an instrument of communication. As an organisation of believers use the Watchtower medium as a channel, then it could be said to reflect the collective views of it's members. So in voicing blame for it's members having erroneous ideas, surely it is blaming itself? And in doing so, it differentiates between some members who did have wrong expectations and some who did not as you rightly point out. In fact, the cited example of Alexander H. Macmillan in saying "A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October" (1914) is a pretty frank admission of error by one who was very prominent as a Bible Student, and would likely have included others of similar prominence in the collective "us".

I  can't  comb through decades of publications in the way that someone like Paul Grundy, a self-confessed and dedicated JW opposer does. Actually I do not think it is worth the effort to dissect claims of this nature because they appear to be driven by a personal agenda borne out of many years of distorted influence and repression. Objectivity seems impossible.

Just one statement (first random one I found believe it or not) was revealing:

WT 15/4/1916.

"The Lord did not say that the church would all be glorified by 1914. We merely inferred it and, evidently, erred."

Who said that? Charles T Russell.

With regard to your citing examples of those who hype up the message of doom aspects of things well, Yes, I agree that this certainly happens, and not just at assemblies. There are a range of different personalities serving Jehovah at this time. Publicity regarding the imminent action of Jehovah's kingdom is the priority at this time and many are the ones driving it. But can't we think for ourselves here?

I have been on field service with one of the anointed who shouted through the letter box that an uninterested  householder would be destroyed at Armageddon. Haven't you?

"Read the Bible Daily" was the best bit of advice I was ever given. I have come across some odd ideas (and people) over the years, but nothing where I couldn't sort out the sense from the nonsense, with the help of the one who flicked the wheels off Egyptian chariots (Ex.14:25).

The bigger the organisation's footprint and digital breadcrumb trail becomes, the bigger a target it is for weirdos, critics, dissenters, opposers and aahh......the $ound of Money!!! It's enough to drive you Mad!

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

At least internally, we should all be bitterly weeping at such things.

Amen to that.

... but NOBODY at Warwick is !

NOBODY !