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Shiwiii

The Earth and the meek

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I have started this thread for the discussion of the meek and the Earth, which has come out of the "will only the jws be saved" thread.

 

I will be answering JWInsider and Space Merchant here on their positions and responses to me. 

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it is one of the best ways to find the proper meaning of the following verses, among several others:

 

  • (Matthew 5:18) 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.
  • (Matthew 5:34, 35) . . .neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet;. . .
  • (Matthew 6:10) . . .Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.
  • (Acts 3:25) . . .: ‘And by means of your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed.’
  • (Acts 17:25, 26) . . .. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,
  • (Ephesians 1:9, 10) . . .It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .
  • (Colossians 1:20) 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
  • (Hebrews 2:5) 5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking.
  • (2 Peter 3:13) 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
  • (Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
  • (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
  • (Revelation 21:1) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;. . .

 

 

 

Matt 5:18  -    how is this any support for meek on Earth? I mean Jesus was speaking about what was to come and what would not pass away (the LAW). He was the fulfillment of the LAW as He died without sin. Sure, Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the Earth", I think we see this a bit different and I'll explain once I respond to Revelation 21:1. 

 

Matt 5:34/35  - This section of scripture is speaking of taking an Oath, swearing on your momma's grave, etc. It has nothing to do with meek inheriting the Earth. 

Matt 6:10 - A section of the Lord's prayer is supporting people on Earth vs people in Heaven? I cannot see that in this scripture. The only correlation is that the word "Earth" is used. 

Acts 3:25  -  This is speaking of what God said to Abraham, not a future fulfillment. It was reassuring Abraham that his children and theirs would be looked after by God. 

Acts 17:25/26 - Paul was explaining who God is and what God has done, again not a prophetic statement. 

Ephesians 1:9/10, Colossians 1:20 - Interesting scriptures to use, as they tie in nicely with Revelation 21 as well. to be expounded upon at the end of my response. 

Hebrews 2:5 -  I suspect you are holding to the "inhabited world to come" portion of this scripture. I agree, to an extent and will address this in my response to Revelation 21. 

2 Peter 3:13 -  New heaven and New Earth.....see revelation 21 response

Revelation 5:10, Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 21:1  --  Ok, here is where I can give you my perspective on most of this. We may disagree, but it is up to us to explain using scripture our position. 

Revelation 5:10 is speaking of who will rule and reign and over what. Men from every tribe, nation and language who have been saved by the Blood of Christ are going to reign over the Earth.  Further in Revelation, where you cited ch 11:18, it speaks of those who are ruining the Earth and that God will ruin them. I'm with you here. Now which Earth are we talking about here? The New Earth or the Old one? Because they are not one in the same. Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.   Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more. This is "NEW" Earth. Does scripture tell us which Earth the meek shall inherit? nope, but I suspect it IS this new Earth. We kind of agree here I think. 2 Peter 3:13 talking about this new Heaven and new Earth and Hebrews 2:5, I believe is speaking of this new Earth that is to come as well. Men will be on the Earth, no doubt. They will be governed by those that God selects. 

Now I want to explain my view on Ephesians 1:9&10 and Colossians 1:20. These two sections of scripture talk about a joining together or reconciliation of all the things in Heaven and on Earth to Christ. While Christ alone can do this however He wishes, we are told of another reconciliation which would fit this role as well, but it come much later then the harvest. It comes when the new Heaven and the new Earth come into play. Revelation 21: 2&3 tells us that a new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and reside on the New Earth and thus God's dwelling place will be with man. This reconciles all things that are in Heaven and all things that are on Earth, to God. He will be among men on the new Earth. So Heaven will come down to Earth. 

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@Shiwiii I appreciate the points and the thought you put into this. I do not believe that all these verses prove the same point. But I agree with something that @Space Merchant had said about how these promises about the earth which are also prevalent in the Hebrew Scriptures, are often tied into Jehovah's overall purpose. I don't actually know that we can state definitively what will become of the planet, and in what way the Bible means that God will reside with mankind. But the overall view presented in Watchtower publications makes a lot of sense of these verses in their totality.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.   Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more.

Here we also have a scripture stating that the old Heavens is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Heavens? What makes the heavens new is the new Kingdom, the new reign, the new order. We could say the same about the Earth. You make a statement showing that you also believe there is a new earth, possibly in some sense "physical," which the new Jerusalem comes down to.

The rendering of a verse in 2 Corinthians, below, matches the ideas of Rev 21 & 22. I don't see it necessary to imagine the literal existing heavens hissing away for the verses to be fulfilled. I suppose it's a matter of whether we understand the same things to be figurative or symbolic and which ones we see as literal.

I will live in them and move among them. 
I will be their God. 
They will be My people. 
'So, come away from them! 
Be separate!' says the Lord. (2 Cor. 6:16,17 SEB)

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@JW Insider @Shiwiii Seconded. Then we have things pertaining to those being resurrected, for the earth will give birth to the dead, as some translations would say, or simply put, the earth will let those powerless in death come to life. For some who do not believe in the "all good people go to heaven" doctrine, they grasp what their counterparts cannot, and that is what the new creation entails, in addition, we have those who have their hope in the resurrection itself in addition to eternal life, for the reason they believe in what the new creation will bring, that is the new heavens and earth, all things that has cause mankind to stumble and or commit vile things will cease, for we can look for those who do such acts, but they will not be there, they won't be to the east of you, nor will they be to the west, nowhere at all, as Psalms 37:10 states: In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

For God's Kingdom itself will provide such, for God will act through for His chosen Messianic King to bring back those in out o the dead by a great multitude, and to some, what they really want is to see those who succumb to death and they know only God has the power to reverse that and will execute his promises when the time comes.

We do not know how things will play out exactly, but it is certain, the bible gives us a variety of evidence of what we are to expect should we come to understand what we read, that is, if we are to endure truly until the conclusion of things itself.

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On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

Here we also have a scripture stating that the old Heavens is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Heavens?

Sure could be. I would agree, and it wouldn't matter much if it were literal or figurative, it is still "new"

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

We could say the same about the Earth. You make a statement showing that you also believe there is a new earth, possibly in some sense "physical," which the new Jerusalem comes down to.

Yes, we could. Again I would agree and it would matter not if it were  literal or figurative.

On 6/29/2018 at 5:59 PM, JW Insider said:

The rendering of a verse in 2 Corinthians, below, matches the ideas of Rev 21 & 22. I don't see it necessary to imagine the literal existing heavens hissing away for the verses to be fulfilled. I suppose it's a matter of whether we understand the same things to be figurative or symbolic and which ones we see as literal.

I will live in them and move among them. 
I will be their God. 
They will be My people. 
'So, come away from them! 
Be separate!' says the Lord. (2 Cor. 6:16,17 SEB)

No problem here with me either. I do not think that it HAS to be new vs restored. What part I do take literal is the part of "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven. Just like you mention in 2 Corinthians. Which is also mentioned in Galatians 4:21-31. The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here. 

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On 7/18/2018 at 10:37 AM, Shiwiii said:

The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here.

 

In Galatians we read that in Ch 3 verse 29, those who belong to Christ are heirs according to promise. They are Abraham's descendants. So what about them? where do they belong? Heaven or Earth?  

Who belongs to Christ?

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On 6/29/2018 at 8:27 PM, Space Merchant said:

the new creation will bring, that is the new heavens and earth

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? 

Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?  

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42 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? 

Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?  

Indeed. The heavens and the earth will be made anew. God will put in place the Messianic King that will be in the God's Kingdom, that will replace the Kingdoms of Man with it's own heavenly governmental hierarchy  and alongside him will be those of whom are called the chosen ones, those who are of Heavenly Jerusalem, the Priesthood, that will rule alongside him. The people of the earth will not have to deal with the wicked and will not be and never be hinder by them, oppressed by them or harmed by them, and those on this earth, cleansed of wickedness, will have Eternal Life, for they as well as those among the Priesthood are of the New Covenant, The Spiritual House. We also know that when all things is said and done, when the last enemy has been dealt with, God's Purpose and Will will 100% be accomplished and the Eternal King, the Invisible Father himself will reign.

I believe I have talked about something similar regarding the Spiritual House, before, one my responses to Witness, for this House that it's very foundation being the Christ consist of both groups, and consist what we know about the new heavens and the earth deemed the new creation.

Edit:

It would also seem that the New Guy, is taking a liking of you.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

It would also seem that the New Guy, is taking a liking of you.

I think I'd recognize that "New Guy" anywhere. From what I can see, it's one guy in 30 persons, and 30 persons in one guy. He takes the idea of "trinity" to a whole new order of magnitude.

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We agree that the new heaven and the new earth will be redeemed, weather that is by means of restoration or by replacement, none the less redeemed. I was just curious if you thought that the two would become one in a sense. Once God's dwelling place is with men, is that the combination, or do you feel that there will still be a separation between heaven and earth? 

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

those of whom are called the chosen ones, those who are of Heavenly Jerusalem

 This Heavenly Jerusalem consists of those called/chosen, do you subscribe to the same views as the jws on this? That this consists of only a select number of folks, say the 144k? 

 

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I believe I have talked about something similar regarding the Spiritual House, before, one my responses to Witness, for this House that it's very foundation being the Christ consist of both groups, and consist what we know about the new heavens and the earth deemed the new creation.

This kind of addresses my first question in this response. Both groups become one under this Spiritual house, but is there still a separation of sorts? 

 

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

From what I can see, it's one guy in 30 persons, and 30 persons in one guy. He takes the idea of "trinity" to a whole new order of magnitude.

now that's funny. Sort of reminds me of Allen Smith.

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This Heavenly Jerusalem consists of those called/chosen, do you subscribe to the same views as the jws on this? That this consists of only a select number of folks, say the 144k? 

This view predates the JWs and it is believed by those who know of what it entails, mainly in regards to such ones who studied the bible and the church extensively. Although some have a different view of the chosen ones, some even suggest it is only a race and or a nation of people (especially when I had to deal with those who say I am from the tribe(s) of Simeon/Levi/Benjamin of which they have no proof of) when the reality is it is a collection of persons who are chosen by God and or those destined for such a service.

It is believed and is true that only a few of these people are left and some will be alive until the End Times conclusion and eventually into the days of Great Tribulations.

Other than that, I actually had some information in detail somewhere, regarding these tribes and what happen to the tribe of Dan, if I do find it I most likely would post it on bible discussion though.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This kind of addresses my first question in this response. Both groups become one under this Spiritual house, but is there still a separation of sorts? 

Those chosen are of the Priesthood, to co-rule as kings and or judges.

The other is those, the heirs, being given eternal life.

Both of them are of the Spiritual House and make up the House. Both of them are of the New Covenant, both of them are of the Seed, only one of them, those of Priesthood,is of the Bride, is of the Firstfruits for we know Jesus is the first and eventually we see 3,000 others and onward of this fold.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

now that's funny. Sort of reminds me of Allen Smith.

Probably because when I checked the guy, Grey Reformer, joined the other day, to be exact Tuesday at 12:50pm on August 7, 2018. I think, or as of what I had seen, think has already made another name for himself weeks ago, but I cannot be too sure.

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9 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

the reality is it is a collection of persons who are chosen by God and or those destined for such a service.

It is believed and is true that only a few of these people are left and some will be alive until the End Times conclusion and eventually into the days of Great Tribulations.

So is this a number? Is it 144k? The reason why I ask is I don't see anywhere where in scripture where a number is correlated to this group. I see just the opposite actually.  

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3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

So is this a number? Is it 144k? The reason why I ask is I don't see anywhere where in scripture where a number is correlated to this group. I see just the opposite actually.  

It is a number of individuals chosen, yes. This number is mentioned 3 times in Revelations and everywhere of where it is mentioned, is a direct references to those chosen to co-rule within the Messianic Kingdom. When the New Covenant came into effect, you already have those of Pentecost, which included the Disciples of Jesus, and Judas' replacement, Matthias, which totals up to 3,000, and from there more of the firstfruits are chosen up to present day and onward.

And the opposite of such would be?

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32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

It is a number of individuals chosen, yes. This number is mentioned 3 times in Revelations and everywhere of where it is mentioned, is a direct references to those chosen to co-rule within the Messianic Kingdom. When the New Covenant came into effect, you already have those of Pentecost, which included the Disciples of Jesus, and Judas' replacement, Matthias, which totals up to 3,000, and from there more of the firstfruits are chosen up to present day and onward.

And the opposite of such would be?

Interesting. The opposite is no number. 

In Galatians chapter 4 starting at verse 21, we are told of Abraham's two sets of children. Children of the free woman (Sarah) and children of the bondwoman (Hagar). Specifically telling the reader that these two groups belong to two different camps, one from Jerusalem on Earth and the other from the Jerusalem from above. The Jerusalem from above are those who belong to the freewoman. Verse 27 quotes the OT Isiah 54:1 in which speaks of how the children of the barren woman (Sarah) will outnumber those of the "wife" (Hagar). 
 

So how does this line up with the 144k or does it? It can't. The reason why I say it can't, is because those of earthly Jerusalem (even at the time of the writing) were already greater than 144k. So then these from the Jerusalem from above must be greater than 144k, so those who belong to the Jerusalem from above cannot be one and the same as the 144k mentioned in Revelation. Revelation 21 talks also of this new Jerusalem coming from above and coming down to earth. If you look into all of the places where a new Jerusalem is written about you will not find ANY mention of 144k or any other definite number belonging to it, but rather a number greater than those of Jerusalem from the Earth, which leaves almost an open ended count. 

I don't disagree with your position on the already 3000 chosen, nor the "more firstfruits", I just do not see how this description in Galatians can be dismissed and replaced by the 144k mentioned in Revelation. 

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16 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Are you one of these?

am I a number? lol

 

I'm not Jewish and I am not from the mentioned tribes in Revelation 7:4-8............. I fail

I'm also not a virgin, Revelation 14:4 ...........I fail

I have lied before, Revelation 14:5............. I fail

So, I do not qualify according to the standard God has placed in the Bible. 

I am male though, so I guess I qualify 1/5th of the requirements. ......I pass.....err......well just this part. 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

am I a number? lol

 

I'm not Jewish and I am not from the mentioned tribes in Revelation 7:4-8............. I fail

I'm also not a virgin, Revelation 14:4 ...........I fail

I have lied before, Revelation 14:5............. I fail

So, I do not qualify according to the standard God has placed in the Bible. 

I am male though, so I guess I qualify 1/5th of the requirements. ......I pass.....err......well just this part. 

I'll take that as a "No!"  then?

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On 8/9/2018 at 3:21 PM, Shiwiii said:

Interesting. The opposite is no number. 

As in? It is a number, granted as to the amount of those of the New Holy City seen standing on Zion.

On 8/9/2018 at 3:21 PM, Shiwiii said:

In Galatians chapter 4 starting at verse 21, we are told of Abraham's two sets of children. Children of the free woman (Sarah) and children of the bondwoman (Hagar). Specifically telling the reader that these two groups belong to two different camps, one from Jerusalem on Earth and the other from the Jerusalem from above. The Jerusalem from above are those who belong to the freewoman. Verse 27 quotes the OT Isiah 54:1 in which speaks of how the children of the barren woman (Sarah) will outnumber those of the "wife" (Hagar). 

Its verse 22 for 21 [Paul] speaks in question of of the Law, but all in all it is included in Apostle Paul using the bondwoman and free woman in this symbolic example. For 22, in this verse, the Slave Girl points to Genesis 16:15 which references to Hagar, while Free Woman points to Genesis 21:2, 3, referencing Sarah. Verses 21–31, the title being, Example of Hagar and Sarah, [outlined: Hagar and Sarah: two covenants (21-31) Jerusalem above, our mother, is free (26)] Apostle Paul indicates 2 Covenants, of which he had spoken of symbolically (algorism as some point out). Moreover, Apostle Paul also shows us that Ishmael was the one to taunt and make fun of his half-brother, Isaac, mocking him, as some know it to be regarding heir-ship:


For Ishmael was born naturally by normal means (nature descent) and we already know of his mother, Hagar, was a slave girl/handmaid/servant. As for Isaac, he was born due to God enabling the elderly Sarah to conceive a child in her late age, for she was 90 years of age when he bore Isaac, being obviously overjoyed by his birth, hence why back in Galatians, Sarah spoken of as a free woman, not bonded as a slave compared to Hagar, for Apostle Paul showed the symbolic differences in the birth of Ishmael and Isaac. Now, after some time we see how Ishmael treats his young half-brother on occasion and Sarah herself was the one who witnessed such things of Hagar’s son. For she was in fear of what may come for Isaac, she was concerned and had told her husband, Abraham to send Hagar and her son off, to dismiss them. For at first, Abraham didn't want to do that, but God spoke to him and said to Abraham to listen to Sarah, in addition, he also stated he will take care of Ishmael and Hagar, informing him not to worry, lastly, stating that it is through Isaac , his son/Sarah's son that His Promises will come true - (Genesis 21:1-14). From this information alone, the reader can see what is being seen here should they apply context.


Yes, Jerusalem from above is of the free woman, hence why Paul used the example, and everyone is also aware that Apostle Paul knows that such ones who are of this fold, even heirs of it, are of Abraham’s offspring, that being Abraham to Isaac, to Jacob (Israel), to his sons (of the 12 tribes), including those who have been lost to Paul’s day. For last anyone could recall, we do not see any mention of Ishmael being given the Promise, however, God did not leave him hanging when he took up a part of the Wilderness, The Desert of Paran and was a hunter.


Prophet Isaiah and The Psalmist prophesied of a barren woman whose reproach and shame are to be forgotten, for she will bring forth many sons, all of them taught by God as seen in Psalms 113:9 and Isaiah 54:1, of which you had mention, with the addition of verses 2 to 15. The Apostle Paul applies Prophet Isaiah’s words to the free woman, The Jerusalem Above as seen in Galatians 4:26-31, for such one is bounded by no one.


Also this is not much, minor information, but Ishmael had 12 sons of his own, all of which of whom points to today’s Arab people.

On 8/9/2018 at 3:21 PM, Shiwiii said:

So how does this line up with the 144k or does it? It can't. The reason why I say it can't, is because those of earthly Jerusalem (even at the time of the writing) were already greater than 144k. So then these from the Jerusalem from above must be greater than 144k, so those who belong to the Jerusalem from above cannot be one and the same as the 144k mentioned in Revelation. Revelation 21 talks also of this new Jerusalem coming from above and coming down to earth. If you look into all of the places where a new Jerusalem is written about you will not find ANY mention of 144k or any other definite number belonging to it, but rather a number greater than those of Jerusalem from the Earth, which leaves almost an open ended count. 

On the contrary, this does line up with the 144,000 chosen ones, mainly when you take into account that the New Covenant of which the early Christians were bounded to immediately after Jesus’ death was in effect and what we read regarding Pentecost that took place in the city of which the disciples were told to remain in.

Of what you have said could be agreed with, however, before the New Covenant itself, no person of any kind were of the firstfruits within the Jerusalem Above, that is, if we take into account Paul’s example of what he has written to the Galatians, when we know the choosing had already begun in his day, granted Paul’s determination to sail to Ephesus, of which is spoken of in the Bible. There numbers were indeed great, yes, but as we can see no Covenant came that would replace the Law Covenant entirely, only after Jesus, who is the mediator of the New Covenant, came along, having been subjected to death, purchasing us, and later resurrected, and has ascended. Since we know Jesus Christ as the very first of the firstfruits, eventually those who are of this fold will be among this fold, as said before.

Jesus being the firstborn out of death and having been resurrected, returning to God, and it is said in the bible that those who belong to him during his presence, for these people, chosen were brought up from among the people and are among the firstfruits, both to God and to Jesus. So in regards to Pentecost, those receiving the Promise that comes from the Father, everyone present, men and women, including the disciples, having been given the Holy Spirit are the very ones to become the firstfruits or the heirs as Paul mentioned to the Galatians in chapter 3, and Jesus himself is already said to be the first among them. Afterwards they began to prophesied publicly, as in preach the gospel of the coming Messianic Age and the gospel of the good news regarding the Kingdom.

New Jerusalem (Zion), otherwise known as Heavenly Jerusalem, also referred to as The [New] Holy City or The Bride [of The Lamb]. New Jerusalem is also referred to as The 3rd Temple of which having unknown measurements as seen in the Book of Ezekiel, or in this case, Ezekiel’s vision. Although not a literal woman, the Bible speaks of her and her church, her people, that is, those among the Priesthood who will reside with The Lamb and rule as Priestly Kings and Judges, as well as sing a Song that is unknown to use of which they can only sing. They will also bear the name of God and the Lamb on their foreheads, for as we can see of John’s expression, he had seen them with Jesus, all 144,000 of them standing on Mount Zion.

Yes, this Holy City will come down on earth, although it is spoken of as spiritual and not physical, and will be an established centralized government of which God will put in place, with God’s chosen King, to be Jesus who is accompanied by those of Priesthood who will appear as some say in Spirit form, like that of an angel or that of the Christ himself. Not everyone can reside in this temple despite being under those of the Holy City, for only those chosen for Priesthood will remain while others will at most remain on earth, hence Eternal Life being given to the people who survived/saved and or having been resurrected. Revelations 21, specifically verses 9 to 27 speak of the city’s description in detail, from its very gates to its geometry, in addition to the sacredness and holiness of such in full description.

It is not about looking to see if 144,000 are there or not, it is about application of context and references. That being said, those of Priesthood are in connection with The Bride and we see of her riddled throughout Revelations, and the very context and references are there, for such who is of this Bride consist of men and women since the days of Pentecost up until now and it is unknown as to how many are left, who is chosen and who is not, for the choosing of such ones is of invitation from God himself, and like any invitation, it can be revoked.

One would say that, but you have to consider those 2 groups of the smaller flock and those of the crowd of people who will inherit Eternal Life, all of which subject themselves to one Shepherd, that is, Christ Jesus.

Other than that, I spoke of the Spiritual House extensively before here, of which is also in connection for the Spiritual House’ foundation is the mediator of the New Covenant himself, Lord Jesus Christ, both those of Priesthood and those to have Eternal Life are of this House, and part of the very foundation they are in union with, the Christ.

This is indeed true; those of Earthly Jerusalem, the ones not free and or in bondage, were indeed in great numbers, we also cannot forget that they, among them are the same ones to have rejected the Messiah, but not those of Heavenly Jerusalem, the chosen ones and as well as those to inherit Eternal Life, believed Jesus.

On 8/9/2018 at 3:21 PM, Shiwiii said:

I don't disagree with your position on the already 3000 chosen, nor the "more firstfruits", I just do not see how this description in Galatians can be dismissed and replaced by the 144k mentioned in Revelation. 

Granted Apostle Paul was using symbolism regarding Hagar and Sarah and he knew very well of what was to happen and what took place during Pentecost, granted he was determined make it to Jerusalem on the day of The Festival of Pentecost.

Other than that if you are in agreement with the 3,000 men and women out of the number that is being discussed and those who are with Jesus among the firstfruits, why do you assume otherwise and on your take if those giving the Holy Spirit were not of the destined since the New Covenant is in effect then who is? There is but a selected few of whom John had seen with his own eyes by means of a vision.

Other than that, a lot of people believe in actual chosen ones, however, it has become a thing of a sole race and or people are chosen only after the End Times and such ones preach that what took place in Pentecost was not where it started, however, they are incorrect.

 

Also this is off the charts and a tad bit random, green isn't your color anymore?

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