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Jesus.defender

Jesus Is God proof-texts

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23 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Probably most of us would have exclaimed similarly if in Thomas's position, but maybe not just for the reason you have cited , more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4! John's account would not present contradictory material when he stated the purpose of his writing at John 20:31.

23 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

and God was the Word

Same argument as that which applies to Acts 28:6

23 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Jesus would NOT say "for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.". The resurrected Jesus DID have a body of flesh and bones.

A curious conclusion drawn here, but at odds with Hebrews 13:2.

23 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Presumably Heb 1:7 which quotes from Ps.45:6. This Psalm is extolling the virtues of a king ruling with the favour of God, thus "God hath blessed thee forever" v 2.

The rather clumsy rendition of Ps.45:6 has been discussed at length for decades, not least due to the difficulties in addressing a king ruling with God's approval as God Himself. The matter is simply resolved when comparing scriptural passages relating to the throne of God-appointed kingship. Solomon for example, was said to be seated on  "Jehovah's throne"  1Chr.29:23. With Jehovah designated as the "King of Eternity" at Revelation 15:3, His throne alone certainly lasts for ever and ever. Gods sovereignty then provides authorisation for any ruler representing this sovereignty and is the only foundation for successful rule of any duration, such duration in the hands of Solomon being only temporary, but nevertheless successful when based firmly on the throne of Jehovah.

Let your argument be with the scholars who have suggested  suitable renditions of the verse in indicating that the success of the king in question is due to his throne being supported by God:

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.--This is the rendering of the LXX., Vulg., and of the versions generally. But whether they supposed the words to be addressed to the Divine Being, or that the theocratic king is thus styled, is uncertain. The Christian use of the verse as applied to the Messiah (Hebrews 1:8, Note, New Testament Commentary) does not help us to explain how the monarch, who is the poet's theme here, could be addressed as God. The use of Elohim in Psalm 82:6; Psalm 97:7, Exodus 22:28, hardly offers a satisfactory parallel, and even 1Samuel 28:13 (where we should render, "I saw a god, &c) hardly prepares us to find such an emphatic ascription to an earthly king, especially in an Elohistic psalm. Two alternative renderings present themselves--(1) Thy throne of God is for ever . . . i.e., thy divine throne. (Comp. Psalm 31:2, "thy refuge of strength.") (2) Thy throne is of God for ever, which is grammatically preferable, and with which may be compared 1Chronicles 29:23, "the throne of the Lord." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

 “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·osʹ] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·osʹ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·himʹ] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·osʹ] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26. B.F.Westcott.

The NWT has rendered these verses accordingly:

  • "God is your throne forever and ever" Ps 45:6
  • "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever," Heb 1:8

Some other translators appear to agree as far as the Psalm is concerned:

Ps 45:6:

Good News Translation
"The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever."

JPS Tanakh 1917
"Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever;"

Interestingly, how do you harmonise your view with 1Cor.15:28?

 


 

 

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11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

AT LAST!

 

Now you have addressed a passage i quoted. Thank you.

 

Unfortunately, you did not think for yourself. You just cut and pasted what the watchtower tells you to say.

 

All you have done is given an interpretation which is biased and imbued with the false presupposition that Jesus is not God.

 

Please, my friend tell me what does "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: " mean?

 

It means clearly that God the father is addressing the Son as God.

 

Hebrews 1:1-9  "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son,"(C)


corresponding texts:    Matthew 17:5 " While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my (J) Son(C), the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.

 

”whom he appointed heir of all things,  

corresponding texts: Psalms 2:8  "Ask of me,(J) and I will give nations as your  inheritance And the ends of the earth as your (C) possession".

 

"and through whom he made the systems of things".

corresponding texts: Colossians 1:15,16  "He is the image of the invisible God (J), the firstborn of all creation" because by means of him (C) all other (than himself) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

 

3 "He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being",

corresponding texts:John 1:14 So the Word (C) became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son(C) from a father;(J) and he was full of divine favor and truth.

John 17:5 So now, Father (J), glorify me(C) at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

 

"and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins,"

corresponding texts: Hebrews 9:26 " Otherwise, he(C) would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he(C) has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.(C)

 

"he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high".

corresponding texts: Psalm 110:1 "Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my(J) right hand Until I place your(C) enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Acts 2:32, 33 "God (J) resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he(C) was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father(J), he has poured out what you see and hear."Acts 7:55 "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand."


So he has become better than the angels

corresponding texts: Ephesians 1:20, 21 which he (J) exercised toward Christ when he (J) raised him (C) up from the dead and seated him (C) at his (J) right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.
1 Peter 3:22 He (C) is at God’s (J) right hand, for he (C) went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him (C).


"to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

corresponding text: Philippians 2:9, 10 "For this very reason, God (J) exalted him (C) to a superior position and kindly gave him (C) the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground"


(HOW COULD "HO THEOS" (ALMIGHTY GOD) BE RAISED TO A HIGHER POSITION THAN HE ALREADY HOLDS?)

 

6. For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?

corresponding text:Psalms 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: (C))“You are my son; Today I (J)) have become your father.

 

And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

corresponding text:  Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens: “You (C) are my Son, the beloved; I (J) have approved you.”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my (J) Son, (C) the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.”
2 Peter 1:17 For he (C) received from God the Father (J) honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him (C) by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I (J) myself have approved.”

 

6 "But when he again brings his Firstborn"

corresponding text: John 1:14 "So the Word (C) became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his (C) glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son (C) from a father(Jehovah); and he (C) was full of divine favor and truth".
Romans 8:29 "because those whom he (J) gave his first recognition he (J) also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son,(C) so that he(C) might be the firstborn among many brothers".
Colossians 1:15 "He (C) is the image of the invisible God, (J) the firstborn of all creation;"

"into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” 7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire"


corresponding text: Psalm 91:11 For he (J) will give his angels a command concerning you,(C) To guard you in all your ways.
Luke 22:43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him (C) and strengthened him.

8 "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

corresponding texts:  Matthew 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me (Christ) in heaven and on the earth.
Revelation 3:21 To the one who conquers I (C) will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I (C) conquered and sat down with my Father (J) on his throne.

 

It is quite clear that throughout the entire context from Hebrews 1:1, Christ is seen to be a lesser god than his Father. Therefore, the use of “theos” here should be translated “god.”

The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or a man with great authority, so reading it carefully is a must. However, in this case one need not read very far to find that Christ, called “god,” HIMSELF HAS a “God.”  The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, makes this crystal clear, verse 9 states:“therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.”  Therefore, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God.  Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him.  This makes it abundantly clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being the supreme God, but rather a man with great authority under another God. 

Andrews Norton writes:
Here the context proves that the word “God” does not denote the Supreme Being, but is used in an inferior sense.  This is admitted by some of the most respectable Trinitarian critics.  Thus, the Rev. Dr. Mayer remarks: “Here the Son is addressed by the title God: but the context shows that it is an official title which designates him as a king: he has a kingdom, a throne and a scepter; and in verse 9 he is compared with other kings, who are called his fellows; but God can have no fellows.  As the Son, therefore, he is classed with the kings of the earth, and his superiority over them consists in this, that he is anointed with the oil of gladness above them; inasmuch as their thrones are temporary, but his shall be everlasting.”


The verse is a direct quotation of Psalm 45:6,7. The Jews read this verse for centuries and, knowing the flexibility of the word “God,” never concluded that the Messiah would somehow be part of a Triune God.


Psalm 45:6, 7 "God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.  7 You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, YOUR God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions."


To be noted,  the verse in the Greek text can also be translated as, “Thy throne is God.”  However, because the verse is a reference from the Old Testament, and because the texts indicate and we believe that Jehovah God is the Father, the supreme deity of the universe, is calling His Christ a “god” (i.e., one with divine authority), there is no need to translate the verse other than, “Thy throne, O god, is forever.”


*Berean Study Bible
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God,(J) Your (C) God, has placed You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”

*Contemporary English Version
You loved justice and hated evil, and so I, (J) your (C) God, have chosen you. I appointed you and made you happier than any of your friends."


*NET Bible
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing."


*GOD'S WORD® Translation
You have loved what is right and hated what is wrong. That is why God, your God, anointed you, rather than your companions, with the oil of joy."

New American Standard 1977
“THOU HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, THY GOD, HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY COMPANIONS.”

American King James Version
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

World English Bible
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."

**thy God.
Psalm 89:26 He (Christ) shall cry to me(J), You (J) are my  father  my  God, and the rock of my (C) salvation.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I (C) have not yet ascended to the Father (J); but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my (C)Father  and your Father, to my (C) God and your God.’”…

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God (J) and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is forever worthy of praise, knows that I am not lying

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms".

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

**One other point is that in Isaiah 9:6 a prophecy regarding Mashiach and the titles applied to him. In this prophecy he is referred to as mighty god  ʼEl Gibbohrʹ  NOT ʼEl Shaddaiʹ which is [God Almighty or Almighty God], which is applied to Jehovah God at Genesis 17:1.


The Bible must be in harmony from Genesis through Revelation, you cannot take one text and say this is what the Bible teaches when there are fifty texts to contradict it. Is it in harmony with the rest of scripture, that is the question.

To address another misconception regarding Jesus Christ...the apostle Peter tells us "...He (Christ) was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. ...." What is this text saying? If Jesus is also Jehovah, who resurrected him? How could he then glorify himself and seat himself along side himself with the  glory he had alongside himself before?  

The apostle John tells us  "I (Christ) have glorified you (Jehovah) on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was".John 17:4,5


1 Corinthians 15:45 "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


Jesus Christ was not raised in the flesh just as Peter informs us....taking his flesh back would nullify the sacrifice he made.  Paul says that "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens; neither does corruption inherit incorruption."

After his resurrection, Jesus materialized bodies for himself just as the angels did in Noah's time when they began to cohabit with the daughters of mankind. Those wicked angels dematerialized and went back to the heavens but their offspring (Nephilim) were destroyed in the flood.


There were also  materialized angels sent out as messengers to mankind.


Why do you think Jesus was not recgnized by his closest associates when they were up close and personal with him? Some recognized him by his voice and others by things he said but not through his appearance.

THE TRINITY DOCTRINE IS OF PAGAN ORIGIN

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3 things that disproves Jesus being God

1. God has a mediator, the first being Moses, the second being Jesus, therefore if Jesus is God he would need a mediator due to the laws of mediatiorship, but clearly Jesus isn't God, therefore the only God is the Father, YHWH, and his mediator, first, was Moses, the second mediator, being Jesus, Paul even stated this in 1 Timothy 2:5

2. God cannot die, he is incorruptible for that in itself is in his nature, 1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23, Habakkuk 1:12, etc. God is not subjected to death like men, but Jesus, being flesh has succumb to death and was only made alive again because of God, moreover, the Bible says several times God is not like man or son of man (Jesus however is a man and is a son of man), and according to Job, as seen in chapter 9, it is said God is not like us men, and we know mortal man is corruptible (moral), not God, for God is incorruptible (immortal).

3. God cannot profess a Law of which he made,for such a law, the foremost one, is one only the Jews practice. Jesus being a born Jew profess this law since he was a child well into his adulthood, the law in question is Shema Yisrael, the same law of which Paul affirmed, as did others in the Bible, even Jesus himself. Nowhere in the Bible it is read and or seen that God profess the Law, however, God himself is the one who MADE this, which is seen in the Torah, Deuteronomy 6:4, to which Jesus affirmed in Mark 12:28-34 and Paul, 1 Corinthians 8:6. Any man or woman who affirms this Law affirms HE/SHE has a God who is their Father, they also acknowledges to be heard by their God and Father, which was the case in the Bible, with Jesus and Paul being clear examples.

As for the verses mentioned on OP

1. John 20:27-28 I have explained in detail, simply look at to what has been address in 100% context to this passage (click hyperlinked text). Also if we are to be honest, if we are to make the claim that Jesus is God, we would also have to explain what Jesus made in John 20:17. Thomas was not present when Jesus risen and he didn't believe, simply read John 20 all the way up to the final verse, that alone proves to you that Jesus wanted Thomas to believe he has risen, to believe that he is from the Father. Also in order to break the hypocrisy, Thomas himself was with Mary and Jesus prior to Lazarus' resurrection as to which Mary even made mention of Jesus Father in front of Thomas, for if Thomas really thought Jesus to be God, surely he would have said something when Mary was there.

2. John 1:1, this is a common verse use by Trinitarians to prove Jesus is God, when one can simply look at Deuteronomy 18:18 and the entirety of John's Introduction chapter, which disproves the claim that Jesus is God. Since the Greek is in use here, what OP has not address is this part in the Greek:

"Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος"

 

Op will say what he says yet fail to inform that ho theos differs from Theon. (theón | theòs ho)

Moveover, OP is using the 1245 Textus Receptus of the verse, the original in Koine Greek is written out this way in Greek:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

So in short, the Word of John 1:1 is the Word proclaimed through Jesus in his ministry and the Word he proclaimed was the proclamation of God the Father Himself, the Word was God. He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father in terms of the things Jesus did. God is Life and Jesus fully expressed that Life in the words he spoke and the works he did. God is Truth and Jesus fully expressed that Truth by everything he said and did. God is Light and Jesus fully expressed the Light of the Father in all the words he spoke and works he did in the name of his God. God is Love and the flesh named Jesus fully expressed the Father's Love, dead flesh hanging on the cross for your sins and mine. The Word of God was something the flesh named Jesus always kept. The Word became flesh, that is, God the Father was manifested in flesh, that flesh named Jesus. Jesus came so that we might know the Father and Jesus fully expressed the Father in all the things he did because he always kept His Father's Word. Jesus' words and works were not his own but the Father's. The Word as proclaimed by Jesus... was God, for the Word of which Jesus speaks is God's Spoken Word.

3. Hebrews 1:8, this has been explained many times before, this simply means the writer of Hebrews describing how the exalted Jesus now has the authority of God's throne, that is, Jesus, with God given authority and power being seated at the right hand of God, hence throne.

 

It is always good to remember, never read a verse AS IT, continue to read for context, read the chapter, the cross-references, etc, to better understand what the passage is trying to convey, in this regard, John or perhaps that of Paul, Peter, etc. That is why God wants us to learn his Word, in that of which we seek and find truth of which the mainstream Christendom is withholding from the people.

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On 7/12/2018 at 6:56 AM, sami said:

 

Hebrews 1:1-9  "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son,"(C)


corresponding texts:    Matthew 17:5 " While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my (J) Son(C), the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.

 

”whom he appointed heir of all things,  

corresponding texts: Psalms 2:8  "Ask of me,(J) and I will give nations as your  inheritance And the ends of the earth as your (C) possession".

 

"and through whom he made the systems of things".

corresponding texts: Colossians 1:15,16  "He is the image of the invisible God (J), the firstborn of all creation" because by means of him (C) all other (than himself) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

 

3 "He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being",

corresponding texts:John 1:14 So the Word (C) became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son(C) from a father;(J) and he was full of divine favor and truth.

John 17:5 So now, Father (J), glorify me(C) at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

 

"and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins,"

corresponding texts: Hebrews 9:26 " Otherwise, he(C) would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he(C) has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.(C)

 

"he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high".

corresponding texts: Psalm 110:1 "Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my(J) right hand Until I place your(C) enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Acts 2:32, 33 "God (J) resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he(C) was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father(J), he has poured out what you see and hear."Acts 7:55 "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand."


So he has become better than the angels

corresponding texts: Ephesians 1:20, 21 which he (J) exercised toward Christ when he (J) raised him (C) up from the dead and seated him (C) at his (J) right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.
1 Peter 3:22 He (C) is at God’s (J) right hand, for he (C) went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him (C).


"to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

corresponding text: Philippians 2:9, 10 "For this very reason, God (J) exalted him (C) to a superior position and kindly gave him (C) the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground"


(HOW COULD "HO THEOS" (ALMIGHTY GOD) BE RAISED TO A HIGHER POSITION THAN HE ALREADY HOLDS?)

 

6. For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?

corresponding text:Psalms 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: (C))“You are my son; Today I (J)) have become your father.

 

And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

corresponding text:  Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens: “You (C) are my Son, the beloved; I (J) have approved you.”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my (J) Son, (C) the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.”
2 Peter 1:17 For he (C) received from God the Father (J) honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him (C) by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I (J) myself have approved.”

 

6 "But when he again brings his Firstborn"

corresponding text: John 1:14 "So the Word (C) became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his (C) glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son (C) from a father(Jehovah); and he (C) was full of divine favor and truth".
Romans 8:29 "because those whom he (J) gave his first recognition he (J) also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son,(C) so that he(C) might be the firstborn among many brothers".
Colossians 1:15 "He (C) is the image of the invisible God, (J) the firstborn of all creation;"

"into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” 7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire"


corresponding text: Psalm 91:11 For he (J) will give his angels a command concerning you,(C) To guard you in all your ways.
Luke 22:43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him (C) and strengthened him.

8 "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

corresponding texts:  Matthew 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me (Christ) in heaven and on the earth.
Revelation 3:21 To the one who conquers I (C) will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I (C) conquered and sat down with my Father (J) on his throne.

 

It is quite clear that throughout the entire context from Hebrews 1:1, Christ is seen to be a lesser god than his Father. Therefore, the use of “theos” here should be translated “god.”

The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or a man with great authority, so reading it carefully is a must. However, in this case one need not read very far to find that Christ, called “god,” HIMSELF HAS a “God.”  The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, makes this crystal clear, verse 9 states:“therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.”  Therefore, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God.  Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him.  This makes it abundantly clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being the supreme God, but rather a man with great authority under another God. 

Andrews Norton writes:
Here the context proves that the word “God” does not denote the Supreme Being, but is used in an inferior sense.  This is admitted by some of the most respectable Trinitarian critics.  Thus, the Rev. Dr. Mayer remarks: “Here the Son is addressed by the title God: but the context shows that it is an official title which designates him as a king: he has a kingdom, a throne and a scepter; and in verse 9 he is compared with other kings, who are called his fellows; but God can have no fellows.  As the Son, therefore, he is classed with the kings of the earth, and his superiority over them consists in this, that he is anointed with the oil of gladness above them; inasmuch as their thrones are temporary, but his shall be everlasting.”


The verse is a direct quotation of Psalm 45:6,7. The Jews read this verse for centuries and, knowing the flexibility of the word “God,” never concluded that the Messiah would somehow be part of a Triune God.


Psalm 45:6, 7 "God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.  7 You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, YOUR God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions."


To be noted,  the verse in the Greek text can also be translated as, “Thy throne is God.”  However, because the verse is a reference from the Old Testament, and because the texts indicate and we believe that Jehovah God is the Father, the supreme deity of the universe, is calling His Christ a “god” (i.e., one with divine authority), there is no need to translate the verse other than, “Thy throne, O god, is forever.”


*Berean Study Bible
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God,(J) Your (C) God, has placed You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”

*Contemporary English Version
You loved justice and hated evil, and so I, (J) your (C) God, have chosen you. I appointed you and made you happier than any of your friends."


*NET Bible
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing."


*GOD'S WORD® Translation
You have loved what is right and hated what is wrong. That is why God, your God, anointed you, rather than your companions, with the oil of joy."

New American Standard 1977
“THOU HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, THY GOD, HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY COMPANIONS.”

American King James Version
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

World English Bible
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."

**thy God.
Psalm 89:26 He (Christ) shall cry to me(J), You (J) are my  father  my  God, and the rock of my (C) salvation.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I (C) have not yet ascended to the Father (J); but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my (C)Father  and your Father, to my (C) God and your God.’”…

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God (J) and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is forever worthy of praise, knows that I am not lying

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms".

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

**One other point is that in Isaiah 9:6 a prophecy regarding Mashiach and the titles applied to him. In this prophecy he is referred to as mighty god  ʼEl Gibbohrʹ  NOT ʼEl Shaddaiʹ which is [God Almighty or Almighty God], which is applied to Jehovah God at Genesis 17:1.


The Bible must be in harmony from Genesis through Revelation, you cannot take one text and say this is what the Bible teaches when there are fifty texts to contradict it. Is it in harmony with the rest of scripture, that is the question.

To address another misconception regarding Jesus Christ...the apostle Peter tells us "...He (Christ) was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. ...." What is this text saying? If Jesus is also Jehovah, who resurrected him? How could he then glorify himself and seat himself along side himself with the  glory he had alongside himself before?  

The apostle John tells us  "I (Christ) have glorified you (Jehovah) on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was".John 17:4,5


1 Corinthians 15:45 "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


Jesus Christ was not raised in the flesh just as Peter informs us....taking his flesh back would nullify the sacrifice he made.  Paul says that "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens; neither does corruption inherit incorruption."

After his resurrection, Jesus materialized bodies for himself just as the angels did in Noah's time when they began to cohabit with the daughters of mankind. Those wicked angels dematerialized and went back to the heavens but their offspring (Nephilim) were destroyed in the flood.


There were also  materialized angels sent out as messengers to mankind.


Why do you think Jesus was not recgnized by his closest associates when they were up close and personal with him? Some recognized him by his voice and others by things he said but not through his appearance.

THE TRINITY DOCTRINE IS OF PAGAN ORIGIN

Which ONE point would you like to address?

 

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On 7/12/2018 at 5:31 AM, Gone Away said:

Probably most of us would have exclaimed similarly if in Thomas's position, but maybe not just for the reason you have cited , more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4! John's account would not present contradictory material when he stated the purpose of his writing at John 20:31.

Same argument as that which applies to Acts 28:6

A curious conclusion drawn here, but at odds with Hebrews 13:2.

Presumably Heb 1:7 which quotes from Ps.45:6. This Psalm is extolling the virtues of a king ruling with the favour of God, thus "God hath blessed thee forever" v 2.

The rather clumsy rendition of Ps.45:6 has been discussed at length for decades, not least due to the difficulties in addressing a king ruling with God's approval as God Himself. The matter is simply resolved when comparing scriptural passages relating to the throne of God-appointed kingship. Solomon for example, was said to be seated on  "Jehovah's throne"  1Chr.29:23. With Jehovah designated as the "King of Eternity" at Revelation 15:3, His throne alone certainly lasts for ever and ever. Gods sovereignty then provides authorisation for any ruler representing this sovereignty and is the only foundation for successful rule of any duration, such duration in the hands of Solomon being only temporary, but nevertheless successful when based firmly on the throne of Jehovah.

Let your argument be with the scholars who have suggested  suitable renditions of the verse in indicating that the success of the king in question is due to his throne being supported by God:

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.--This is the rendering of the LXX., Vulg., and of the versions generally. But whether they supposed the words to be addressed to the Divine Being, or that the theocratic king is thus styled, is uncertain. The Christian use of the verse as applied to the Messiah (Hebrews 1:8, Note, New Testament Commentary) does not help us to explain how the monarch, who is the poet's theme here, could be addressed as God. The use of Elohim in Psalm 82:6; Psalm 97:7, Exodus 22:28, hardly offers a satisfactory parallel, and even 1Samuel 28:13 (where we should render, "I saw a god, &c) hardly prepares us to find such an emphatic ascription to an earthly king, especially in an Elohistic psalm. Two alternative renderings present themselves--(1) Thy throne of God is for ever . . . i.e., thy divine throne. (Comp. Psalm 31:2, "thy refuge of strength.") (2) Thy throne is of God for ever, which is grammatically preferable, and with which may be compared 1Chronicles 29:23, "the throne of the Lord." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

 “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·osʹ] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·osʹ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·himʹ] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·osʹ] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26. B.F.Westcott.

The NWT has rendered these verses accordingly:

  • "God is your throne forever and ever" Ps 45:6
  • "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever," Heb 1:8

Some other translators appear to agree as far as the Psalm is concerned:

Ps 45:6:

Good News Translation
"The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever."

JPS Tanakh 1917
"Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever;"

Interestingly, how do you harmonise your view with 1Cor.15:28?

 


 

 

You really have no idea of the Bible, do you?

"Probably most of us would have exclaimed similarly if in Thomas's position, but maybe not just for the reason you have cited , more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4! John's account would not present contradictory material when he stated the purpose of his writing at John 20:31."

IF what thomas said WAS an exclamation of shock, he blasphemed and the penalty was stoning to death on the spot.

Just Jesus pick up stones?

NO, He CONGRATULATED and AGREED with thomas!

 

HAHA. Your first attempt to answer totally FAILS at the first hurdle!

 

STOP LISTENING TO THE WATCHTOWER.

 

THEY ARE A COMPLETELY SATANIC CULT

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9 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

"Probably most of us would have exclaimed similarly if in Thomas's position, but maybe not just for the reason you have cited , more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4! John's account would not present contradictory material when he stated the purpose of his writing at John 20:31."

Thomas knew exactly of what he was talking about because he was in doubt for he was not present when Jesus had risen. Thomas didn't see Jesus as God for a number of reason, an example would be when he was present with Jesus and Mary prior to Jesus bring Lazarus out of death, for if he thought of the Christ to be God surely he would have said something to Mary. Another factor is that his presence at Pentocost.

Actually this sole chapter is in regards to seeing and believing, of which I spoken of before. Thomas, as stated didn't see the Christ when he had risen nor did was he aware that the man he followed is somehow alive again. We only understand fully pertaining to what Jesus had said right after verse 28 to Thomas and John 20:31 can easily be understood by any honest man - and surprise surprise, the cross-references solidifies this very information.

But it would seem that people forget that Thomas was among the disciples of Jesus and make it seem he was not paying attention at all.

9 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

IF what thomas said WAS an exclamation of shock, he blasphemed and the penalty was stoning to death on the spot.

He was in shock, he didn't know about Jesus being brought out of death until Jesus appeared to him, if you read the chapter fully, you even see the other disciples, who had already met with Jesus and told to remain in the city, meet up with Thomas and the risen Jesus appeared out of the blue in the Thomas' dwelling. Before Jesus appeared, we can see this in the following verses in this cahtper:

John 20:24-31 - (24) Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. (25) So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” (26) Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” (27) Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” (28) Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (29) Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (30) Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; (31) but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

An that my friend, is merely the last few verses of this chapter, we have yet to begin talking about the cross-references regarding these verses that are above a dozen.

9 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Just Jesus pick up stones?

NO, He CONGRATULATED and AGREED with thomas!

Granted Thomas was a disciples and understood what Jesus was talking about, for Thomas didn't believe and he was in doubt, mainly in regards to the resurrection when he and Jesus meet with Mary prior to raising Lazarus out of death. Thomas, like the others, expect Judas, listen carefully of what Jesus had talked about throughout his travels and ministry and he would not do a complete 180 on what Jesus has taught, in fact, as said before, Thomas was indeed present at Pentocost, which speaks more in of itself in regards to what Thomas believed - on that day, he among many, got the promise of which Jesus speaks that comes from God the Father, Thomas, and the others received the Holy Spirit.

9 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

HAHA. Your first attempt to answer totally FAILS at the first hurdle!

He didn't fail. Just has Anna didn't fail either.

9 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

STOP LISTENING TO THE WATCHTOWER.

THEY ARE A COMPLETELY SATANIC CULT

And yet the Bible and the cross-references, once again, speaks for itself, not the Watchtower and it is unfounded that a religious group that are Restorationist to the core to be even considered as a cult, mind you with their numbers and how they operate, for you can break their legs and they still continue to serve God, that alone should tell you something for me and others who study religions, we can even see that.

Deserter, you speak of cults yet you believe in 3 Gods (Triune Being), you make the Cult of Attis look like saints.

 

That being said, you've yet to prove John 1:1 (including cross-references) promotes Jesus being God when we clearly see this in the verse: Θεόν and Θεὸς

And for that reason, your so called proof is rendered empty and plain as a blank sheet of paper.

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12 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4!

Oh dear silly billy! Sorry about the typo here. I meant Gen.32:3, or Jg.13:22 of course. I was dealing with another post at the same time.

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I would say that the Catholic Church is the Biggest Cult of them all.  Which other religion burned Bibles and People at the stake?  Which other religion claimed that the Kingdom of God would come through Adolf Hitlers' 3rd Reich? 

(Jesus Defender) is a Christ denier... this cult member has been brainwashed and denies the Lord's Prayer.   The trinity opposes and attacks the Christ.  He his losing his War on Christ dying the second death.    Those dying the second death weep and gnash their teeth against JESUS CHRIST.  Picture for emphasis....

 

 

 

Christ Reigns.jpg

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