Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

[Shiwiii]

13 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

Most churches I went to, you had to abide by their rules, policy or what they believed.  If one church said no pants, we could only wear dresses.  However if the society said men wear ties, it's a major crime against humanity. (smile)

I've never been to or heard of a church that has rules like you mention. 

 

14 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I understand how the society will use certain quotes to support certain reasoning on the scriptures, however, I may not entirely agree with them or the author of the quote.

So do you agree that the society has misrepresented some of the scholars they have cited?

 

[Witness]

On 6/14/2016 at 2:16 PM, JaniceM said:

Hi Witness, 

 

I was hoping to get off this merry-go-round as we continue to go around in circles.  At some point, we do need to agree to disagree especially when nerves are on edge and give rise to anger and nasty overtones.  It may be that we are not in the same race or on a marathon that never ends.

 

 

Janice, I’ll try to be short to make it easier on you.  I admire your sense of obligation to answer everything I’ve written.  It wasn't expected. 

Once we break the mindset that an earthly organization, church or otherwise is not needed to worship, serve, praise our God, the Father and the Son, anything earthly becomes nonexistent in the mind and heart, and has nothing to do with developing a relationship with God and Jesus. 

"For Abraham was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God." (Heb.11:10)

God’s new Temple in Christ is represented by chosen anointed ones, as well as God and Christ. (Rev 21:22; Acts 17:24; Heb 9:11; 1 Pet 2:5; 1 Cor 3:16;

The power of Holy Spirit is beyond most people’s comprehension.  This power is working now in those leaving the WT who cleanse themselves of earthly defilement, moving on to serve God and Christ with their “whole heart, whole soul and whole mind” ( Matt 22:37) – with no, and I stress, no intervention from assumed authority by men.

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.  You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”  Deut 6:4,5

The organization consistently says, "Jehovah and the organization", "Jehovah with the organization", "Jehovah and his organization", "Jehovah along with his organization".  If the Lord is one, why is he grouped with an organization, and seldom with his own Son?

“It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear. “ Deut 6:13

The organization swears by itself and its broadcasting station, and by doing so, those inside are following other gods.  God's laws are continuously broken by the organization and those who support it.  Will he be forgiving towards such actions? 

“You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you—  for the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God—lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth.” Deut 6:14

 Also, check your baptism question #2 if you haven’t yet done so. (Deut 6:13)

 Chosen ones who have left (anointed) will merge as prophesied to become the refined capstone of the Body of Christ as long as they remain faithful to their Head, Christ.  Their hearts must be sealed in their dedication to purity and truth.  ALL who realize this and have left the organization, will join with this capstone (“two witnesses”Rev 11:1-3) in praising God and declaring his name in righteousness.  (Dan 9:18; Jer 33:16)

In order to see this fulfillment one must:

Stop following and obeying what is seen.  Rev 13:8

“Set the mind on things that are above, not on things that are on earth”  Col 3:2 

Look directly at Christ as the Way, Truth, and Life to lead us to “refreshment for your soul”, in more knowledge, more understanding and an extremely close relationship with him.

“Buy” from him refined “gold” that he offers in the time of the end, and accept his discipline and  refinement.  Rev 3:18-20

Even if you feel you are a non-participant in WT’s unrepentant follies, when one tolerates dissension, abuse, lies, hypocrisy, that one partakes in it as well. 

“This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. They say continually to those who despise the word of the Lord, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’” Jer 23:16,17

Obviously, God warns his people when error is made by his wayward priests and prophets.  He does so in the end through his Son, Jesus Christ.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.”  Rev 2:20

“And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.”  Rev 17:5

 ^“ And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.  For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings (Rev 5:10; 1:6) of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.  (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)”

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!  So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.  For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.”  Rev 18:15-17

Christ says, “Come out of her, my people,  lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues”  Rev 18:4

We cannot enter the Kingdom carrying with us the baggage of the Watchtower’s sins. 

God will not take us full of the desire of the flesh, the desire of eyes, the pride of life – all richly found within the organization.  This is “not from the Father, but from the world”  1 John 2:16  There is no exception!   There is no earthly Zion!

“The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned” 1 Cor 2:14

Natural - sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152 (spiritual), which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446,(physical) which is the lower or bestial nature):—natural, sensual.

This struggle that we both see as what really is truth “tribulates” the heart; it, alone is a sign of the end times. We choose our heart's desire, be it solely in the Father and Christ or in the world. We all must search out what true worship means to God.

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.  James 1:27

The world encompasses anything contrary to the Spirit of God; animate, sensual, natural.  If we don’t make our minds over to the Spirit of God, we will continue to look to the world for a source of salvation thinking it is something acceptable to God. 

“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” Rom 12:2

Don’t feel it necessary to respond, Janice.  I think you've had your fill.  This is here also for any who may have eyes that see.  Luke 10:23,24

http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-greatest-tribulation-why.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HollyW]

On 4/18/2016 at 1:29 PM, JaniceM said:

Hi Jay,

Thank you for your response. 

The holy scriptures are from God, not men, which I'm sure we can both agree. 

Romans 10:13  Aramaic Bible in Plain English - “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”

 

Hi Janice, 

Interesting quote from the Aramaic Bible.  I'm new and haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, so please forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

In that same Bible (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), there's this at 1 Corinthians 12:3  Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, "Yeshua is damned", neither can a man say, "Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH", except by The Spirit of Holiness.

Not sure if you were aware of this or not.

 

Holly

[HollyW]

On 4/15/2016 at 5:26 PM, JaniceM said:

 

God's name appeared originally in the Bible almost 7,000 times, so I don't think it was God's decision for His name not to be spoken or excluded from the Bible or pronounced only as Elohim/God. 

 

I recall speaking to some Jews and they often refer to God as "The Name" ("haShem").  They will also write G-d, instead of God.  Maybe they felt God's name was too sacred to be spoken or disrespectful to be mispronounced, however, I think it's very disrespectful not to acknowledge God's name or deny even the correct spelling and title of God.  We do have a short form of God's name in scripture, Yah/Jah.  Despite their best objective not to say God's name or keep it hidden, God's name is not entirely lost as they fail to realize, many Jewish names include this short form or sound which they speak regularly: 

 

(Isa'iah) [Salvation of Jehovah]; (Jeremi'ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]]; (Obadi'ah) [Servant of Jehovah]; (Zephani'ah) [Jehovah Has Concealed (Treasured Up)]; (Zechari'ah) [Jehovah Has Remembered]; Jesus (Greek, I.e.sous’; Hebrew, Jeshua, (Yeshua); Jehoshua (Yehoshua) meaning “Salvation [or Help] of Jah (Yah) [Jehovah/Yehovah].”  (Hal·le·lu jah).

Hi again, Janice.  I'm still working my way thru this thread and I notice that you've said several times that God's name has been removed from the OT.  That's simply not true.  Any of the Hebrew manuscripts our English Bibles are translated from still have God's name in them, the YHWH Tetragram.  It is brought into English variously as LORD, GOD, Yahweh, and Jehovah, depending on the Bible.   

But this is not true of any of the Greek manuscripts of the NT.  It's goes beyond reasonable to believe that the Hebrew characters for God's name, YHWH, was originally in the NT and was removed from more than 5,000 copies in exactly 237 places.  However, if it had been there, would it have been read as "Lord" (Adonai in Hebrew; Kyrios in Greek)?

Also, the name the disciples and early Christians preached in was not "Jehovah".  They were beaten and imprisoned for preaching in the name of Jesus and were told to stop preaching in his name.

Acts 4:18  And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 

[JaniceM]

9 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Hi Janice, 

Interesting quote from the Aramaic Bible.  I'm new and haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, so please forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

In that same Bible (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), there's this at 1 Corinthians 12:3  Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, "Yeshua is damned", neither can a man say, "Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH", except by The Spirit of Holiness.

Not sure if you were aware of this or not.

 

Holly

Hi Holly,

Thank you.  This was quite an interesting translation.  I did check several other translations as well.  It appears only the Aramaic Bible included the name Jehovah. 

The Divine Name King James Bible which restores God's name throughout its translation rendered 1 Cor 12:3:  "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

From my research, wording is different from Bible to Bible, and each one may render some verses completely different from the majority of Bibles.  This is not an unusual occurrence from Bible to Bible.  However, scrutiny is directed more toward the NWT.

I have not responded to the thread in a couple of weeks due to work and being busy with other things.  It was also taxing on my time to go around in circles.  Misery does love company as they say.  However, I don't mind dialogue as long as it's not too mean-spirited and we can actually learn something.  I am thankful you increased my knowledge and will add it to my reference of information.

You please have a good day.

Janice

 

 

[JaniceM]

32 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Hi again, Janice.  I'm still working my way thru this thread and I notice that you've said several times that God's name has been removed from the OT.  That's simply not true.  Any of the Hebrew manuscripts our English Bibles are translated from still have God's name in them, the YHWH Tetragram.  It is brought into English variously as LORD, GOD, Yahweh, and Jehovah, depending on the Bible.   

But this is not true of any of the Greek manuscripts of the NT.  It's goes beyond reasonable to believe that the Hebrew characters for God's name, YHWH, was originally in the NT and was removed from more than 5,000 copies in exactly 237 places.  However, if it had been there, would it have been read as "Lord" (Adonai in Hebrew; Kyrios in Greek)?

Also, the name the disciples and early Christians preached in was not "Jehovah".  They were beaten and imprisoned for preaching in the name of Jesus and were told to stop preaching in his name.

Acts 4:18  And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 

 

Hi again Holly,

There are many responses here so due to time restrictions, this may be my last comment or response.

I understand God's name is not Lord or God, so the initials/consonant/YHWH Tetragram was replaced with LORD/Lord or GOD/God by scribes in the ancient manuscripts that we have.  God or Lord are just titles for there are many Lords/lords and Gods/gods.  Most English Bibles do not include God's name however, the old KJV Bible included God's name maybe in about four (4) scriptures.  However, when the NKJV Bible was published it completed removed God's name from even those four (4) verses.  See below:

Psalm 83:18  King James Version (KJV) That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

Psalm 83:18  New King James Version (NKJV) That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth.

 

There was not solid proof God's name was included in the the OT until the 20th century with new discoveries of ancient fragments or manuscripts and later the dead sea scrolls.  We face the same problem with the NT whereby some writing do say the Divine Name was included whereas their is no solid proof to date. 

 

I think I have covered the other issue of preaching in Jesus' name, etc. in previous posts, so you may find my answer there.  I will try to read your future posts, however, I may not be able to respond.

[HollyW]

2 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Hi again Holly,

There are many responses here so due to time restrictions, this may be my last comment or response.

I understand God's name is not Lord or God, so the initials/consonant/YHWH Tetragram was replaced with LORD/Lord or GOD/God by scribes in the ancient manuscripts that we have.  God or Lord are just titles for there are many Lords/lords and Gods/gods.  Most English Bibles do not include God's name however, the old KJV Bible included God's name maybe in about four (4) scriptures.  However, when the NKJV Bible was published it completed removed God's name from even those four (4) verses.  See below:

Psalm 83:18  King James Version (KJV) That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

Psalm 83:18  New King James Version (NKJV) That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth.

 

There was not solid proof God's name was included in the the OT until the 20th century with new discoveries of ancient fragments or manuscripts and later the dead sea scrolls.  We face the same problem with the NT whereby some writing do say the Divine Name was included whereas their is no solid proof to date. 

 

I think I have covered the other issue of preaching in Jesus' name, etc. in previous posts, so you may find my answer there.  I will try to read your future posts, however, I may not be able to respond.

Thanks, Janice, I appreciate your reply.  It is a very busy world we live in.

I just want to call your attention to this statement that you made above:  "I understand God's name is not Lord or God, so the initials/consonant/YHWH Tetragram was replaced with LORD/Lord or GOD/God by scribes in the ancient manuscripts that we have."

If you're saying this about the ancient OT Hebrew manuscripts, it just isn't true.  The Tetragram is still there in the Hebrew.  It had not been removed from the OT manuscripts at all.

If you're saying this about the NT manuscripts, there is no evidence that the Tetragram was ever in them nor ever removed from them.

If I've misunderstood what you mean, please let me know.

Thank you.

Holly

 

 

 

[HollyW]

On 4/28/2016 at 4:56 PM, Jesus.defender said:

If the name Jehovah is so important, then why is it never used in the entire Greek New Testament? If men edited out the name of God, "YHWH" when they copied the New Testament, as only the Watchtower organization claims, then how can we have any confidence in any of the New Testament? Should we discard the New Testament or the Watchtower organization as unreliable?
 

Hi JD,

That's the bottom line, isn't it.  To maintain that the Greek mss of the NT were tampered with in such a way actually casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible itself.

It's one thing to insist that the Bible manuscripts have unquestionably come down to us exactly as God had inspired them to be written; but it's something else again to say the NT manuscripts have been tampered with in “one of the saddest and most reprehensible” ways, by removing “Jehovah” from them……which brings up the question what else was tampered with.  

Bible reliability:

Awake, 6/11/1972: Almighty God himself has unquestionably had a hand in seeing that his Word has been preserved so faithfully all these years. Any way one looks at it, the overall reliability of the Bible text is beyond question.

Road to Paradise tract, pg. 3: HAS NOT THE HOLY BIBLE BEEN TAMPERED WITH? Almighty God could by no means allow such a thing……... When our present-day Bible is compared with such old manuscripts, it becomes quite clear that the text we have today is the same as that which God inspired his ancient servants to write.

Insight-1 p.321: Copies—Hebrew or Greek—Soon after the originals were written, manuscript copies began to be produced. The copyists exercised great care to transmit the text accurately; the Masoretes counted even the letters that they copied. 

Insight-1 p.448: The available evidence convincingly demonstrates the remarkable accuracy and care that distinguished the copying of the Bible books, resulting in the preservation of their internal integrity. 

Insight-2 p.313: What assurance is there that the Bible has not been changed? Despite the care exercised by copyists of Bible manuscripts, a number of small scribal errors and alterations crept into the text. On the whole, these are insignificant and have no bearing on the Bible’s general integrity. They have been detected and corrected by means of careful scholastic collation or critical comparison of the many extant manuscripts and ancient versions.

NWT introduction: Since the Bible sets for the sacred will of the Sovereign Lord of the universe, it would be a great indignity, indeed an affront to his majesty and authority, to omit or hide his unique divine name.

Bible tampered with:

Close to Jehovah, p.8: God’s personal name has been removed from countless Bible translations and replaced with titles, such as “Lord” and “God”. This is one of the saddest and most reprehensible things that has been done in the name of religion.

Insight-2 p.10: Why, then, is the name absent from the extant manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures or so-called New Testament? Evidently because by the time those extant copies were made (from the third century C.E. onward) the original text of the writings of the apostles and disciples had been altered. Thus later copyists undoubtedly replaced the divine name in Tetragrammaton form with Ky′ri·os and The·os′. 

Insight-1 p.324: Eventually, in most translations of the Bible the divine name was completely replaced by expressions such as “Lord” and “God.” It is noteworthy that only the most vital name of all—Jehovah—was tampered with; other Bible names were not.

Watchtower 10/1/1997 p.20: Show discernment in the selection of the Bible you use. (Proverbs 19:8) If a translation is not honest about the identity of God himself—removing his name from his inspired Word on whatever pretext—might the translators also have tampered with other parts of the Bible text?

Holly

 

[HollyW]

3 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Hi Holly,

Thank you.  This was quite an interesting translation.  I did check several other translations as well.  It appears only the Aramaic Bible included the name Jehovah. 

The Divine Name King James Bible which restores God's name throughout its translation rendered 1 Cor 12:3:  "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

From my research, wording is different from Bible to Bible, and each one may render some verses completely different from the majority of Bibles.  This is not an unusual occurrence from Bible to Bible.  However, scrutiny is directed more toward the NWT.

I have not responded to the thread in a couple of weeks due to work and being busy with other things.  It was also taxing on my time to go around in circles.  Misery does love company as they say.  However, I don't mind dialogue as long as it's not too mean-spirited and we can actually learn something.  I am thankful you increased my knowledge and will add it to my reference of information.

You please have a good day.

Janice

 

That's probably true about the Aramaic Bible and 1 Corinthians 12:3; however, that might be a pretty good indication of who the translators are referring to in the scripture you had quoted at Romans 10:13  “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”

What I found interesting about 1 Corinthians 12:3 is that no one can say Jesus is Jehovah except by the Holy Spirit. Since "Lord" was often said in the place of "Jehovah" when they read it in the Bible, think of the meaning behind it.

And how many translations have Romans 10:13 the way the Aramaic has it?  I think you had said the DNKJ does. (I've had some correspondence with the fellow who did the DNKJ.  Interesting character.)  And the NWT probably does.  But it presents a non-sequitur to be speaking about Jesus being Lord and then say to call on some other name.  Look at the context itself:

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. ² For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. ³ For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. ⁴ For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 

⁵ For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. ⁶ But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), ⁷ or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” ⁸ But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, ⁹ that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ¹⁰ for with the heart a person believes,resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 

¹¹ For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not bedisappointed.” ¹² For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;¹³ for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 

¹⁴ How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? ¹⁵ How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” ¹⁶ However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” ¹⁷ So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 The apostle Paul is writing about Jesus Christ being Lord, confessing him as Lord, and calling on the name of the Lord.

 

Holly

[HollyW]

On 6/15/2016 at 11:05 AM, JaniceM said:

 

If there's an official policy that says we have to agree with every interpretation of scripture, I would like to see it.  However, I'm in a bit of wonderment and awe as to the obsession with everything the society does and says.  Most churches I went to, you had to abide by their rules, policy or what they believed.  If one church said no pants, we could only wear dresses.  However if the society said men wear ties, it's a major crime against humanity. (smile)

 

 

The policy is there, maybe it's "unofficial".

 

A mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “one-ness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. (Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p. 14)

There's a QFR in the April 1st, 1986 wt on p.31 that asks the question: Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunication) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?

And the article goes on to say:
"Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.  What do such beliefs include?

That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1,*3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14,*16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3,*4.

Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2*Timothy 2:17,*18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as brothers, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship."

 

[Witness]

On 6/27/2016 at 5:10 PM, HollyW said:

Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2*Timothy 2:17,*18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as brothers, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship."

 

I have appreciated your thoughts, Holly.  Just as Hymenaeus and Philetus preached that the “resurrection has already occurred” the warning given in 2 Thess. 2:1-4tells us to equally be on be on guard…

 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.  Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Again, those who prophesy such words influence “brothers and sisters” in faith.  Yet these are ones who “have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge”  Rom 10:2

By subjecting oneself to the comfort and securitysuch a false belief may provide, Christ warns, “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”  Rev 16:15

It seems apparent that by accepting official doctrine that goes beyond scripture is accepting man's philosophy over the inspired scripture, which is sufficient enough for our spiritual heath. 2 Tim 3:16  

"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.  See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, ("unique to Jehovah's Witness"), which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world  rather than on Christ."  Col 2:6-8

http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/mark-of-beast.html

 

 

 

[HollyW]

On 7/1/2016 at 10:13 AM, Witness said:

I have appreciated your thoughts, Holly.  Just as Hymenaeus and Philetus preached that the “resurrection has already occurred” the warning given in 2 Thess. 2:1-4tells us to equally be on be on guard…

 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.  Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Again, those who prophesy such words influence “brothers and sisters” in faith.  Yet these are ones who “have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge”  Rom 10:2

By subjecting oneself to the comfort and securitysuch a false belief may provide, Christ warns, “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”  Rev 16:15

It seems apparent that by accepting official doctrine that goes beyond scripture is accepting man's philosophy over the inspired scripture, which is sufficient enough for our spiritual heath. 2 Tim 3:16  

"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.  See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, ("unique to Jehovah's Witness"), which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world  rather than on Christ."  Col 2:6-8

http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/mark-of-beast.html

 

 

 

Thank you, witness.   I appreciate your insights as well.  

From the WT article I quoted, one of the teachings has already changed that is listed as being among those that are unique to JWs and must be accepted in order to be approved association for them: " That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.  "

This underwent some revisions three years ago, both in the identity of who the faithful slave actually is and it not being yet "entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests".

I've often wondered, do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?