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Jack Ryan

Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

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Hi Jay,

Thank you for your response. 

The holy scriptures are from God, not men, which I'm sure we can both agree. 

Romans 10:13  Aramaic Bible in Plain English - “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”

(Zephaniah 3:9) For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’  (NWT)

 

I don't know of any position whereby Jehovah's Witnesses have stated knowing God's name alone is enough.  There are many that know the name of God including Satan.

 

I don't see a matter of this or that, but this and that.  Men knew God before revealing the significance of his name.  Men also knew God and relied upon him before Jesus came as his representative and explained him and his purposes more fully.  As a matter of fact, Abraham knew God as his friend and called upon his name.  Abraham knew God and obeyed him.  We can know God through that which is revealed in all the scriptures and through his son, Jesus Christ.  We can know God also by knowing his name and what it means.  And yes, there are many that confess they know Jesus; that he is Christ the lord and savior; yet Christ himself says he does not know them for they are workers of lawlessness.  In disobedience they fail to obey the father or the son and their faith is in vain. 

 

Specifically, at this point, I'm not sure what the issue is, or major point of disagreement.  You mentioned proclaiming

"such reverence when declaring the good news of God’s Kingdom".

 Perhaps you can clarify what you mean exactly so that we are not going in circles or on a wild goose chase.  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  If so, do you think this message should be incorporated in some kind of preaching work?  Is there an organization or religious body you feel is more actively proclaiming this message?

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2 hours ago, JaniceM said:

son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23

 

John 5:23  [ISA] - THAT ALL MAY-BE-VALUING THE SON according-AS THEY-ARE VALLING THE FATHER THE-one NO VALUING THE SON NOT IS-VALUING THE FATHER THE One-SENDing

 

John 5:23  International Standard Version - so that everyone may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23  Aramaic Bible in Plain English - That everyone should honor The Son as one honors The Father. He who does not honor The Son is not honoring The Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23  GOD'S WORD® Translation - so that everyone will honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23  Douay-Rheims Bible - That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

 

John 5:23  Young's Literal Translation - that all may honour the Son according as they honour the Father; he who is not honouring the Son, doth not honour the Father who sent him.

 

The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions.

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Hi JaniceM,

I am sorry to confuse you, but I do have a point I'm trying to get at.  Maybe by the end here?

It is interesting that in Romans 10:13, that although the Wt. Kingdom Greek Interlinear says,

“everyone who likely might call upon the name of the Lord (Kupiou) will be saved”…the Watchtower took the liberty to translate Lord as Jehovah.  Now, of course there are numerous cases in the scriptures where this applies to God.  With this particular scripture, though, Romans 10:9 helps us to see just which “Lord” it is addressing, and yet because both Christ and the Father are as one, could it be either?

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. “

Would this not be the same as calling on the name of Jesus?  I think this is what I’m getting at.  The concentration given God is by far, extremely important; but also very important is our Savior Jesus Christ, who is left out of the circle in the writings of the Watchtower.  Instead, “Jehovah” and the “Organization” are primary.  Isn’t this how it is portrayed in the magazines over and over?

Consider all the scriptures where “ the name of Jesus” is used.  Here are a few of them:

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"  Acts 2:38

"But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!”  Acts 3:8

"for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."  Acts 8:16

"But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus." Acts 9:27

"Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be imprisoned but even to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.”  Acts 21:13

And more.

People were healed, they “preached boldly”, were ready to die, and were saved (Acts 2:38) all in the name of and for, Jesus.  It is perfectly acceptable to say we are saved in the name of Jesus, since Revelation backs this up:

and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  Rev 7:10

Savior does not only refer to the Father:

Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the SaviorIsa 45:15

But also to the Son:

Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.   Acts 13:23

This is the indication of their oneness of Spirit.  So yes, we can say, “Everyone who will call on the name of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved”

There is no organization needed to proclaim this message.  During the time of the end, we know Christ makes the call for his people to repent of any sins, partake of his spiritual “meal” and ready ourselves for his appearance.

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

“Come out of her, my people,
    lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
    and God has remembered her iniquities.  Rev 18:4,5

God’s people are his chosen ones and all those righteous hearted ones along with them..  I think we need to question just where these sins and iniquities are to be found that we are to come out of.  Obviously it is his own people who are at fault, not the entire world.  The iniquities of God’s people have always been found among them.

"if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."  2 Chron 7:14

"And he said, “Amos, what do you see?” And I said, “A basket of summer fruit.” Then the Lord said to me, “The end has come upon my people Israel; I will never again pass by them."  Amos 8:2

"Thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who lead my people astray, who cry “Peace” when they have something to eat, but declare war against him who puts nothing into their mouths." Micah 3:5

The invitation by Christ is this:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me".  Rev 3:20

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."  Matt 7:7

We are “saved” according to our faithfulness toward God’s Son, not through an organization.  It is by our “testimony” that life is gained.

“And this is the testimony,  that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”.  1 John 5:11

"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power,  so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 1:11,12

The early apostles preached God in conjunction with Jesus.  They clearly showed the harmony of salvation through Jesus and by the Father.  As Jesus and God are as one, the apostles preached this by their testimony. 

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."  Rev 1:9

I don’t see this accomplished in the organization, not at all. Instead, the testimony is of the organization and God.  Those two, on the other hand, could never be one in spirit. 

“To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
    and compare me, that we may be alike?
Those who lavish gold from the purse,
    and weigh out silver in the scales,
hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god;
    then they fall down and worship!

Remember this and stand firm,
    recall it to mind, you transgressors,
    remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me,”  Isa 46:5,6,8,9

Even though we may acknowledge Jesus, If our message does not give testimony of him, then we are showing the Father that we reject his message.

“Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God. 

“And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.  And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.  I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.  If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.  The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.  And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”  John 12:42-50

 

 

 

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"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

Yes, one must do the same to one as the other. You quoted many different versions,  but the meaning is the same. Whatever you do for the Father, you must also do for the Son, or else you are not honoring as the same. It is pretty clear. Anyone can find a loophole in terminology,  but the meaning is clear. It is not about words but of equality. 

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21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

Yes, one must do the same to one as the other. You quoted many different versions,  but the meaning is the same. Whatever you do for the Father, you must also do for the Son, or else you are not honoring as the same. It is pretty clear. Anyone can find a loophole in terminology,  but the meaning is clear. It is not about words but of equality. 

  •  

The reason I posted other translations is to compare how the verse could be translated and because you related:

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23"

 

 

"Just" appears to be a filler word and does not appear in all translations of the Bible.

 

If I honor both my mother and father, I would honor them both the same as I would not honor my mother less than my father.  This is clear.  It is not clear that Jesus should be worshiped as the Father, if the verse doesn't say worship.  Honor doesn't translate as worship at John 5:23, at least in any translations that I've found, and that is clear.

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I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

 

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The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

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Let me ask you, does the Son deserve riches, wisdom, glory, honor, might and power? The same is said of the Father , "glory and honor and power"

 

Revelation 4:11 AND  Revelation 5:10

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God said for the angels to worship Jesus, Hebrews 1:6, buy yet the angel said to John "do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God" Revelation 22:9. So who's wrong the angels or God. Jesus said "go satan, for it is written,  you shall worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only" did God contradict Himself when He commanded the angels to worship Jesus?

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