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Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?


Jack Ryan

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23

 

John 5:23  [ISA] - THAT ALL MAY-BE-VALUING THE SON according-AS THEY-ARE VALLING THE FATHER THE-one NO VALUING THE SON NOT IS-VALUING THE FATHER THE One-SENDing

 

John 5:23  International Standard Version - so that everyone may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23  Aramaic Bible in Plain English - That everyone should honor The Son as one honors The Father. He who does not honor The Son is not honoring The Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23  GOD'S WORD® Translation - so that everyone will honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent him.

 

John 5:23  Douay-Rheims Bible - That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

 

John 5:23  Young's Literal Translation - that all may honour the Son according as they honour the Father; he who is not honouring the Son, doth not honour the Father who sent him.

 

The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions.

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Jesus always referred to God as Father, which should help us realize there is more than just pronouncing his name in order to know him.  Jesus made mention many times that by accepting him and his tea

Quite agree. Prostrating oneself involves more Prostrate oneself 1. Lit. to lay oneself out in respect or obedience in front of someone or something. Fall down   to drop or to

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?" Based on John 5:23: "all may hon

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Hi JaniceM,

I am sorry to confuse you, but I do have a point I'm trying to get at.  Maybe by the end here?

It is interesting that in Romans 10:13, that although the Wt. Kingdom Greek Interlinear says,

“everyone who likely might call upon the name of the Lord (Kupiou) will be saved”…the Watchtower took the liberty to translate Lord as Jehovah.  Now, of course there are numerous cases in the scriptures where this applies to God.  With this particular scripture, though, Romans 10:9 helps us to see just which “Lord” it is addressing, and yet because both Christ and the Father are as one, could it be either?

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. “

Would this not be the same as calling on the name of Jesus?  I think this is what I’m getting at.  The concentration given God is by far, extremely important; but also very important is our Savior Jesus Christ, who is left out of the circle in the writings of the Watchtower.  Instead, “Jehovah” and the “Organization” are primary.  Isn’t this how it is portrayed in the magazines over and over?

Consider all the scriptures where “ the name of Jesus” is used.  Here are a few of them:

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"  Acts 2:38

"But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!”  Acts 3:8

"for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."  Acts 8:16

"But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus." Acts 9:27

"Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be imprisoned but even to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.”  Acts 21:13

And more.

People were healed, they “preached boldly”, were ready to die, and were saved (Acts 2:38) all in the name of and for, Jesus.  It is perfectly acceptable to say we are saved in the name of Jesus, since Revelation backs this up:

and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  Rev 7:10

Savior does not only refer to the Father:

Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the SaviorIsa 45:15

But also to the Son:

Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.   Acts 13:23

This is the indication of their oneness of Spirit.  So yes, we can say, “Everyone who will call on the name of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved”

There is no organization needed to proclaim this message.  During the time of the end, we know Christ makes the call for his people to repent of any sins, partake of his spiritual “meal” and ready ourselves for his appearance.

“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

“Come out of her, my people,
    lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
    and God has remembered her iniquities.  Rev 18:4,5

God’s people are his chosen ones and all those righteous hearted ones along with them..  I think we need to question just where these sins and iniquities are to be found that we are to come out of.  Obviously it is his own people who are at fault, not the entire world.  The iniquities of God’s people have always been found among them.

"if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."  2 Chron 7:14

"And he said, “Amos, what do you see?” And I said, “A basket of summer fruit.” Then the Lord said to me, “The end has come upon my people Israel; I will never again pass by them."  Amos 8:2

"Thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who lead my people astray, who cry “Peace” when they have something to eat, but declare war against him who puts nothing into their mouths." Micah 3:5

The invitation by Christ is this:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me".  Rev 3:20

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."  Matt 7:7

We are “saved” according to our faithfulness toward God’s Son, not through an organization.  It is by our “testimony” that life is gained.

“And this is the testimony,  that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”.  1 John 5:11

"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power,  so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 1:11,12

The early apostles preached God in conjunction with Jesus.  They clearly showed the harmony of salvation through Jesus and by the Father.  As Jesus and God are as one, the apostles preached this by their testimony. 

"I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."  Rev 1:9

I don’t see this accomplished in the organization, not at all. Instead, the testimony is of the organization and God.  Those two, on the other hand, could never be one in spirit. 

“To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
    and compare me, that we may be alike?
Those who lavish gold from the purse,
    and weigh out silver in the scales,
hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god;
    then they fall down and worship!

Remember this and stand firm,
    recall it to mind, you transgressors,
    remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me,”  Isa 46:5,6,8,9

Even though we may acknowledge Jesus, If our message does not give testimony of him, then we are showing the Father that we reject his message.

“Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God. 

“And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.  And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.  I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.  If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.  The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.  And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”  John 12:42-50

 

 

 

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"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

Yes, one must do the same to one as the other. You quoted many different versions,  but the meaning is the same. Whatever you do for the Father, you must also do for the Son, or else you are not honoring as the same. It is pretty clear. Anyone can find a loophole in terminology,  but the meaning is clear. It is not about words but of equality. 

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21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

Yes, one must do the same to one as the other. You quoted many different versions,  but the meaning is the same. Whatever you do for the Father, you must also do for the Son, or else you are not honoring as the same. It is pretty clear. Anyone can find a loophole in terminology,  but the meaning is clear. It is not about words but of equality. 

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The reason I posted other translations is to compare how the verse could be translated and because you related:

"Just" should be in place between "worshiped" and "as" in your statement, according to John 5:23"

 

 

"Just" appears to be a filler word and does not appear in all translations of the Bible.

 

If I honor both my mother and father, I would honor them both the same as I would not honor my mother less than my father.  This is clear.  It is not clear that Jesus should be worshiped as the Father, if the verse doesn't say worship.  Honor doesn't translate as worship at John 5:23, at least in any translations that I've found, and that is clear.

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I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

 

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The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

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God said for the angels to worship Jesus, Hebrews 1:6, buy yet the angel said to John "do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God" Revelation 22:9. So who's wrong the angels or God. Jesus said "go satan, for it is written,  you shall worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only" did God contradict Himself when He commanded the angels to worship Jesus?

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God elevates Jesus to a superior position so he would deserve whatever glory, power, honor, etc, that his Father bestows upon him.  The Father does not give his glory to anyone, but the glory Jesus receives, he gives to those that would serve with him.

 

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

 

The Heavenly Father also receives from the newly installed kings(elders with crowns), glory, honor and praise as he deserves having created all things.

 

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

 

When God's kingdom began ruling in the heavens, he took over power and operation in the heavens and soon the earth by appointing Jesus as representative of his kingdom.  Satan has been given power and authority to rule for a time.  When God's kingdom was established in the heavens, he was hurled down to the earth.

 

(Revelation 11:17) saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.


(Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.


(Revelation 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

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Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

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Jay, again, I appreciate your response.  I did read over your words several times, and found myself disagreeing with quite a few of your assertions.


This is totally guesswork on my part as to what your major concern is, but maybe you think that we are not proclaiming Jesus' name as much or as often as we should, but elevating Jehovah's name moreso in the publications.

I reviewed the last public Watchtowers again, and in each issue, Jesus’ name is mentioned and encourages the public to put faith in him.  Jesus' name is mentioned all throughout the articles:    


No. 1/2016    Jehovah - 25; Jesus - 15
No. 2/2016    Jehovah - 19; Jesus - 68


The articles have always stressed the importance of doing the work of Jesus which God gave him to do and have always vindicated Jesus as King of God's kingdom; his death for forgiveness of sins and resurrection.  I found  continuously over and over, scriptures and words of Jesus and his instructions of how we should conduct ourselves as worshipers of the true God and in the ministry.


Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.


In Jesus' name can also mean that we as his disciples carry out his work by the authority granted to him from above.  See excerpts below:

http://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-34.htm

"If you do something in Jesus’ name it means that you do it with the authority He gave you and not on your own authority, and that you act within the limits of your authorization, whatever those limits may be. You act as His agent, in His stead, to His credit and for His benefit. You have no benefit from your deeds except His thanks and whatever reward He chooses to give you."

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/name.html

"What does it mean to do a thing in the name of another? It is to come with his power and authority, as his representative and substitute. Using another's name always presupposes a common interest. No one would give another the free use of his name without first being assured his honor and interests were as safe with another as with himself."

"When the Lord Jesus went to heaven, He left His work--the management of His Kingdom on earth--in the hands of His servants. He also gave them His Name to draw all the supplies they needed for the due conduct of His affairs. Christ's servants have the spiritual power to use the Name of Jesus only insofar as they yield themselves to live only for the interests and the work of the Master. The use of the Name always supposes the surrender of our interests to Him Whom we represent."

 

While, some denominations will shout certain phrases over and over, i.e. ‘GET SAVED IN THE NAME OF JESUS!’, there is no reason to beat people over the head continuously.  We can simply say we are saved by our faith in Christ.  I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.


Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.


I agree that only God as Almighty Savior through Christ’s sacrifice is our means of salvation.  No other person or organization can do this.  I have come to the conclusion that many persons may repent and come to accept the kingdom before the time of the end whether they are baptized JW’s or not; at least this is my hope, they become sheep and not continue as goats.  The wheat and the weeds have grown up together, and at this time of the end being separated.  I know that many persons left Egypt and resided with the nation of Israel receiving the blessings and the curse.  We may not agree with every single understanding of scripture, but let us not look for reasons to be full of discontent.  The world is divided and easily works to tear us apart and I will not echo their thoughts or be influenced anymore by such.


I do however, disagree there is no need for organization.  God organized the Israelites for worship, and Jesus organized his disciples for the preaching work sending them out by two’s and from city to city, village to village.  They continued going house to house after Jesus death and resurrection in this way and eventually to the nations.  There is just no other organization to actively proclaim God’s kingdom.  People have to know they have a choice for a strong leader and not imperfect men in a world destined to be destroyed.  They do not have to believe lies, floating away to heaven or burning forever in fire.  

 

Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust.


Lastly, I disagree that confessing or declaring Jesus as our Lord and Savior, (Rom 10:9), is the same as everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah, (Rom 10:13).


Checking other Bible translations and/or commentaries, I didn’t see where the Watchtower is totally without basis in their translation of Romans 10:13:  


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+10%3A13&version=KJ21;NKJV;ASV;OJB

Romans 10:13 Aramaic Bible in Plain English - “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”


Romans 10:13  New Living Translation - For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."


Romans 10:13  DNKJ - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD,( Jehovah Jol 2:31,32 2Ti 2:19 ) shall be saved. - See more at:  http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/NT45ROM10.htm#sthash.MUsq4keY.dpuf


Romans 10:13  New King James Version (NKJV) - For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[a] Footnotes:  Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32


Romans 10:13  Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) - since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered.[a] Footnotes:  Romans 10:13, Joel 3:5(2:32)


Romans 10:13  Kehillah in Rome Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)  - For V’HAYAH KOL ASHER YIKRA B’SHEM ADONOI ("Everyone whoever calls upon the Name of the L-rd" YOEL 3:5 [2:32]) shall be delivered.


Commentaries:  

Romans 10:13  Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers - Upon the name of the Lord.—Originally, as meaning “of Jehovah,” but with especial reference to the Messianic Advent. Here, therefore, it is applied to our Lord.

Romans 10:13  Expositor's Greek Testament  - For every one who invokes the name of the Lord shall be saved. The words are from Joel 3:5 (= Joel 2:32 LXX). “The Lord” in the original is Jehovah; here, manifestly, Christ—a proof how completely Christ stands in God’s place in all that concerns salvation.

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8 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response:

 

I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

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