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Jack Ryan

Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

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35 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

 

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

 

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.  Also, I didn't want to overload the forum with scriptures, but I will post a few more examples below: 

 

Heb 1:6 Young's Literal Translation - and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'  -http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-6.htm -

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

 

Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV) 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

 

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

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11 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Jay, again, I appreciate your response.  I did read over your words several times, and found myself disagreeing with quite a few of your assertions.

 

Thank you Janice, I suppose I should let you know I am not Jay Witness who asked the question, but just Witness.  J 

I also appreciate your quotes, especially this one which verifies my own thoughts,

Romans 10:13  Expositor's Greek Testament  - For every one who invokes the name of the Lord shall be saved. The words are from Joel 3:5 (= Joel 2:32 LXX). “The Lord” in the original is Jehovah; here, manifestly, Christ—a proof how completely Christ stands in God’s place in all that concerns salvation.

The examples of numerical times that Jesus was used in the latest Wt is interesting, and I believe not the norm; beyond the numerical, one should also the question how his name is used in context.  Do the examples portray his glory?  This is what I ask myself when reading the information. Acts 13:48; John 17:1-5; 12:28;   As an example, when reading Matt 3:17 in the NWT, its rendering of eudokeō as “approved” is a far cry from any other translation I’ve come across. 

Your words,  “Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.”

We could all call ourselves Christians, but behaving as Christ did, following directly in his path and recognizing those who teach truth are sure signs.  Have you considered the baptism questions lately?  Perhaps this has been brought out since there seems to be a lot of activity going on since I signed in.

 On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? 

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."  
Wt. ‘85/6/1 p. 30

This was a big change from the previous:

 Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ

 On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?" Watchtower 1956 Jul 1 p.407

It is important to see the transition from….

"We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." Watchtower 1966 Oct 1 pp.603-604

Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities
As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.
 Wt ‘90/11/1/p.26

To….

Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 
Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:91015) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is establish
  KM 11/90 p.1

"The wonders about Jehovah’s organization, or “Zion,” and the truth about the spiritual paradise must be joyfully passed on “to future generations.” WT 7/2015 par 13 

What confusion! Is the organization then, teaching and baptizing in the name of Christ as the early apostles did as you have stated, or are they baptizing in the name of an organization that is now called Zion, which Heb 12:22 verifies it as heavenly? How did it come about that it was considered idolatry to place salvation in an organization to then an organization becoming Zion?  Our dedication cannot be to both an organization and God, but the baptism questions lead one to believe that our identity must be to the organization.  This really is not leading one to Christ, but to a man made entity.  Jesus said we deny ourselves and follow him, not give our identity to anything other than him.  Luke 9:23; Matt 6:24

It is taught that man cannot preach effectively without the organization.  The slide rule is all over the place, as we have seen from various quotes; but the bottom line is Jesus told the woman at the well, as did Stephen prior to his stoning, that there is no physical entity needed to do God’s will and this has been brought out by the WT in the past verified by the above quotes. With Christ, it is a new worship and only in the spirit and the truth.  Our lean should be directly on the Father and Holy Spirit as our power to accomplish true preaching, as well as Jesus Christ who is truth.  John 14:6  Having such faith allows our preaching to be done effectively and pleasing to God.  Matt 17:5

Mistakes made by the organization are not brushed over or excused by making new mistakes. God set in place this provision under the New Covenant – Christ and his Chosen ones.  Instead, man has usurped this provision by insisting it be done their way; but that is not at all unusual, as sadly it is the pattern of God’s people through history. Jer 5:31

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
 and clever in their own sight.”  Isa 5:20,21

The apostles preached under the direction of Holy Spirit. “Organization” preaches detail of what a person should do or say, which displays a lack of faith in what the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit are able to instill in us to accomplish spreading the words of Christ; especially within each anointed ones who carry the burden of teaching. 1 John 3:19-24 This shows a shift from leaning on God’s direction to a leaning on, and depending on man to guide us, and it is how a centralized hierarchy develops.  We take it at man’s word that a “faithful and discreet slave” are those in high position, when in reality each anointed slave will only be considered such, through Jesus’ words directly to the individual upon Christ’s return. Rom 14:4

We must realize, shouldn’t we, that those faithful ones throughout the centuries were able to preach without an organization but only through the Holy Spirit blessing them.  Acts 1:8 

Can God, who “is spirit,” be represented by a material image? No. Regardless of how imposing an icon may be, it can never match the glory of God. So an image of God could never be a truthful representation of him. (Romans 1:22, 23) Would a person be ‘worshiping in truth’ if he approached God through some man-made icon?  WT 02 7/1

These words are correct.  Yet, the teaching of ‘organization’ as Zion, God's throne, defies them entirely. It is true that you say denominations preach, “get saved in the name of Jesus”.  I believe no man made denomination has God’s blessing, but only individuals; yet we should keep in mind, it was in Acts 8:35 that Philip “preached Jesus”. What a good example for us to follow! 

So how does God feel about the changing teachings by his anointed ones?  As you see, there are two types of doctrinal teachings within the Watchtower. We must question the source as either good fruit or bad fruit since a “tree”, represented by God’s chosen ones, cannot hold both, and yet we read both! Luke 6:43  Many have lost their hope through these changing teachings such as that of “generation” over the years, but by applying pure living waters from Christ we can easily say,  “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.”  Heb 10:23

“ If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.  But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.  Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.  James 1:5-8

As humans loyal to a cause, an organization, a belief, we can quickly brush our mistakes aside forgetting those who may have grievously been wronged by them.  We are limited in not only our foresight but our hindsight and would rather forget what we’ve done wrong.  God is not limited at all, each person is precious. He does not excuse unrepentant acts of another causing one to stumble.  Jer 18:15; 6:16; Matt 3:3  When Jesus told Simon to feed my sheep and repeated it three times to verify that his love for others was based on his truth, (2 Cor 13:1) it was to be imparted to others also based on that same truth.

Changing doctrine is the same as “meaningless offerings” by God – after all, don’t they lose their meaning even to us when new doctrine is established, new dates are set in place?  Isa 1:13

The words of old that prophets relayed to God’s people are still in effect in every way today.  Satan’s deceptions have adjusted to appear even craftier, but the basis of God’s disapproval never changes. Mal 3:6

“Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?” Isa 2:6-22 (Isa 3:8-11)

It is a confusing mix for the brothers and sisters as to whom they should serve, the organization? God? Both? It is easier to blend them into one which then becomes idolatry, as the above quote from the organization states.  One’s fortress for salvation becomes the work of one’s own hands.  Isa 17:10,11; John 7:18; Jer 51:17

The banner we fly to make God’s name known today is not a blue one that starts with “jw….”, but a symbolic one with the name, “Jesus”.

"In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting-place will be glorious.  In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."  Isa 11:10-12 (Mark 13:27; Rev 9:14); Rev 14:6

Jesus' yoke is light, not one of complicated teachings!  Matt 11:30

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

 

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

 

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

 

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

 

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

 

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

 

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

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7 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

 

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

 

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

 

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

 

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

 

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

I'll post this again:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

 

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.


(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

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I'm sorry Witness, I did read over your mail, and hope to respond soon, but I have to start working some by tomorrow.  Hopefully I won't get too much more distractions, interruptions, or butting in of conversations and I'll reread what you wrote and get back to you.  But I have a feeling I'll have to finish tying up some loose ends for at least another 24/48 hours the way things are going.

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43 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they do not convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.


(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

 

Summary:  The Christians also receive honor and the same glory from Christ which he receives from his Father.  But they are not worshiped the same as the Father even though they reflect the same glory of God and receive the same glory given to Christ.

 

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

 

John 17:22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

 

(Hebrews 1:2, 3) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

 

Now I will finish off my using the same method of reasoning:  Does receiving the same image and glory as Christ receives from the Father mean others should be worshiped as Christ or God?

 

Let see what Strong says:

http://biblehub.com/parallel/john/17-22.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/1391.htm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

dignity, glory, honor, praise, worship.

From the base of dokeo; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective) -- dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

see GREEK dokeo

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

 

Quote
Corrections/Additions
 
 
Strong's Concordance
doxa: opinion (always good in N.T.), hence praise, honor, glory

Original Word: δόξα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: doxa
Phonetic Spelling: (dox'-ah)
Short Definition: honor, renown, glory splendor
Definition: honor, renown; glory, an especially divine quality, the unspoken manifestation of God, splendor.

 

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16 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

It seems you are not reading the context of John 5:23.  The context gives the reason WHY we honour the Son as we would the Father:

 

Joh 5:19  So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20  For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21  For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22  The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23  that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27  And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
 

This passage is about honouring the Son because of the authority in judgement and raising the dead, which the Father has granted to the Son.  It is not about the equality of the Father and Son.

D

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