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Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?


Jack Ryan

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

 

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.


(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?" Based on John 5:23: "all may hon

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I'm sorry Witness, I did read over your mail, and hope to respond soon, but I have to start working some by tomorrow.  Hopefully I won't get too much more distractions, interruptions, or butting in of conversations and I'll reread what you wrote and get back to you.  But I have a feeling I'll have to finish tying up some loose ends for at least another 24/48 hours the way things are going.

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43 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they do not convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.


(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

 

Summary:  The Christians also receive honor and the same glory from Christ which he receives from his Father.  But they are not worshiped the same as the Father even though they reflect the same glory of God and receive the same glory given to Christ.

 

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

 

John 17:22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

 

(Hebrews 1:2, 3) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

 

Now I will finish off my using the same method of reasoning:  Does receiving the same image and glory as Christ receives from the Father mean others should be worshiped as Christ or God?

 

Let see what Strong says:

http://biblehub.com/parallel/john/17-22.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/1391.htm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

dignity, glory, honor, praise, worship.

From the base of dokeo; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective) -- dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

see GREEK dokeo

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

 

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Strong's Concordance
doxa: opinion (always good in N.T.), hence praise, honor, glory

Original Word: δόξα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: doxa
Phonetic Spelling: (dox'-ah)
Short Definition: honor, renown, glory splendor
Definition: honor, renown; glory, an especially divine quality, the unspoken manifestation of God, splendor.

 

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16 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

It seems you are not reading the context of John 5:23.  The context gives the reason WHY we honour the Son as we would the Father:

 

Joh 5:19  So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20  For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21  For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22  The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23  that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27  And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
 

This passage is about honouring the Son because of the authority in judgement and raising the dead, which the Father has granted to the Son.  It is not about the equality of the Father and Son.

D

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9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

But this is what you were implying or else you would have never mentioned it in the first place because it has no bearing on the topic discussed. 

 

9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

We are talking about multiple scholars here, not public opinion. These men and women have studied and trained to do this very thing, translate. This is not some flippant group of people who have no Biblical training but want to write their own version. There are some who have done so, with little or no training what so ever other than a semester or two of Hebrew or Greek. Are you really trying to throw their education aside and lump them in with the uneducated opinions? That to me would be dishonest and insulting. 

 

9 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. This was not by accident, Jesus didn't mince words, He knew exactly what they would think. Do you believe that Jesus didn't realize what His statement would mean? Of course He did. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to correct them if He mislead them. He didn't, because He conveyed exactly what He intended to. 

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives lifeto whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

I see you have also quoted a portion of this and Donald has brought it up as well. Interesting to note in verse 21, Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. Does Jesus have to run it by His Father first? Nope. He has free will to give to whom He pleases. The Son can do what the Father can do, because He and the Father work in conjunction. This is demonstrative of Jesus' own will, which by the way is NOT contradictory to the will of the Father. 

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Jesus statement of hearing His word AND believing in the Father, one gains eternal life. Think about that for a moment, the Jews had the word of God in the OT, and now Jesus is saying these must hear (not just listening to the audible voice, but understanding) his words in conjunction with belief in the Father to gain eternal life. The Jews would never think of such, it would be blasphemy. Again, Jesus authority and equality is shown here because this is what God had told the Jews. 

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

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12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

Hello  Shiwii,

 

I am glad that you can see that the passage gives us the reason why we honour the Son as we honour the Father.   But the passage is clearly saying that the Son and the Father God are not equal because the Son derives his authority from the Father.  We honour both the Father and the Son but for different reasons.   It is because the Son derives his authority from the Father, that we honour the Son,  not because they are intrinsically equal in authority which is what you appear to be claiming.   I don't see how you can read this passage in any other way.  The Father does not derive His authority from the Son.

D

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1 hour ago, Donald Diamond said:

Hello  Shiwii,

 

I am glad that you can see that the passage gives us the reason why we honour the Son as we honour the Father.   But the passage is clearly saying that the Son and the Father God are not equal because the Son derives his authority from the Father.  We honour both the Father and the Son but for different reasons.   It is because the Son derives his authority from the Father, that we honour the Son,  not because they are intrinsically equal in authority which is what you appear to be claiming.   I don't see how you can read this passage in any other way.  The Father does not derive His authority from the Son.

D

 I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. What I said was that the Son and the Father deserve the same honor as stated in verse 23. This honor is placing value as we discussed earlier in this thread. This value is the point being made. If one values the Father greater than the Son then the value is not equal and this is not proper according to the scripture. I pose the same question to you:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. What I said was that the Son and the Father deserve the same honor as stated in verse 23. This honor is placing value as we discussed earlier in this thread. This value is the point being made. If one values the Father greater than the Son then the value is not equal and this is not proper according to the scripture. I pose the same question to you:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

It is very simple.   I honour my mother as I honour my father.  I honour my mother for different reasons than I honour my father.   In both cases, I honour them, but it is not the "same" honour as it is for different reasons.    Scripture tells us to honour those to whom honour is due - the reasons for that honour is different in each case.   Receiving honour is not a definition of deity.   In scripture we honour the Father for being God - we honour the Son for dying for us - something God could not do as He cannot die.

I do not see in scripture the concept of "equal worship".  The derivation of the word sometimes translated "worship" is simply "to bow the knee".  Sometimes it ids bowing to God, sometimes to humans beings.  The Israelites worshipped Jehovah (YHWH) and the king (I Chron 29:20) 

1Ch 29:20  And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Jehovah your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped Jehovah, and the king. (ASV)

- it is describing one act.  Do you consider this "equal worship"?  It clearly doesn't  mean that the human king is Jehovah.

 

D.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

It is very simple.   I honour my mother as I honour my father.  I honour my mother for different reasons than I honour my father.   In both cases, I honour them, but it is not the "same" honour as it is for different reasons.    Scripture tells us to honour those to whom honour is due - the reasons for that honour is different in each case.   Receiving honour is not a definition of deity.   In scripture we honour the Father for being God - we honour the Son for dying for us - something God could not do as He cannot die.

You do honor your parents in different ways, but the respect you give them is equal. The devotion you give to them (in a normal functioning family) is equal, Their value to you is equal (50% dad's input and 50% mom's for your being here). If I understand your point correctly is that your relationship between them in different. I would agree. As far as honor being the definition of deity, you are correct, but who else in the Bible are we told to honor equally with the Father? There is no one else to which this honor is applied equally, except Jesus.

 

28 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

do not see in scripture the concept of "equal worship".  The derivation of the word sometimes translated "worship" is simply "to bow the knee".  Sometimes it ids bowing to God, sometimes to humans beings.  The Israelites worshipped Jehovah (YHWH) and the king (I Chron 29:20) 

 

The equality is in the description of honor and how that honor is applied. It is a value you place on. Like before, your parents each have a value of 50% of your being brought into this world. This is not an absolute because some people do not place equal value to each of their parents, but for the sake of argument it is what I am using to convey the message. Here in the verse we are talking about equal value is to be placed upon the Son as is to the Father. How one chooses to act this honor out is the difference between what you are I are saying. If we both are called to the Royal palace, how would we show honor to the Queen? Would it be acceptable if we have different ways of doing this? likely not. 

 

39 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

- it is describing one act.  Do you consider this "equal worship"?  It clearly doesn't  mean that the human king is Jehovah.

 I do not consider this equal. This is where the word worship, as you pointed out, is the act of paying homage. I understand and agree with you on "worship" can mean to bow down, or fall face down. Now what do you do with scriptures that use the same word proskuneō after the description of already being bowed down?

Like for instance Matthew 4:9  "And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 

Is this just homage or is it actual worship? It would be actual worship because the act of bowing down has already been done, thus there would be more to the word proskuneō based on the context. Don't you agree? 

 

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To add to this honor worship issue, I want to bring out a scripture that shows a little more clearly why I see worship (true worship) as a form of honor. 

 Mark 7:6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

“‘This people honors me with their lips,
    but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
    teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

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13 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

But this is what you were implying or else you would have never mentioned it in the first place because it has no bearing on the topic discussed. 

 

We are talking about multiple scholars here, not public opinion. These men and women have studied and trained to do this very thing, translate. This is not some flippant group of people who have no Biblical training but want to write their own version. There are some who have done so, with little or no training what so ever other than a semester or two of Hebrew or Greek. Are you really trying to throw their education aside and lump them in with the uneducated opinions? That to me would be dishonest and insulting. 

 

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. This was not by accident, Jesus didn't mince words, He knew exactly what they would think. Do you believe that Jesus didn't realize what His statement would mean? Of course He did. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to correct them if He mislead them. He didn't, because He conveyed exactly what He intended to. 

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives lifeto whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

I see you have also quoted a portion of this and Donald has brought it up as well. Interesting to note in verse 21, Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. Does Jesus have to run it by His Father first? Nope. He has free will to give to whom He pleases. The Son can do what the Father can do, because He and the Father work in conjunction. This is demonstrative of Jesus' own will, which by the way is NOT contradictory to the will of the Father. 

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Jesus statement of hearing His word AND believing in the Father, one gains eternal life. Think about that for a moment, the Jews had the word of God in the OT, and now Jesus is saying these must hear (not just listening to the audible voice, but understanding) his words in conjunction with belief in the Father to gain eternal life. The Jews would never think of such, it would be blasphemy. Again, Jesus authority and equality is shown here because this is what God had told the Jews. 

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

 

1.  I'm not sure what the implication is other than what I stated below, but feel free to elaborate just for argument sake:

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

2.  There is the public opinion among Christendom (including mainstream misinformed individuals who have failed to read their Bibles in its entirety or researched how Bibles are translated), that the KJB is the only correct translation or that the majority of translations are correct in their renditions of certain verses; that any translation that deviates from a common verse practice is heretical, even if those scholarly translators have just as much education and degrees, dismissing hundreds or thousands of hours of training, which is insulting to them and dishonest just for people to want to have their ears tickled.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

3.  The scripture also states why the son is to be honored as Judge or the one that renders judgement, which is being disregarded to support the idea of worship instead.

John 5:22-23 New American Standard 1977  - “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"

 

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean.

 

4.  Jesus never said he was equal to God, which you'd rather believe the lies of wayward Jews instead; ones Jesus called children of the Devil and a Synagogue of Satan.

Lies go on for miles with more twists and turns; and the more crooked they get, the more confusing. 

Since I can't get a clear sense out of the remainder of your words, I don't see a need to respond to the rest of whatever that was. (smile)

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