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Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?


Jack Ryan

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21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

 

Jesus said he was son of God.  He even admitted he was son of God before the Sanhedrin.  If there was ever any time for him to make such a bold statement as you insist he did, that would have been the time, when he was on trial and before Pilate.

 

I've heard of reading in between the lines, but it does no good to stick your head in the sand and pretend you don't recognize the truth.

 

 

 

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Jesus always referred to God as Father, which should help us realize there is more than just pronouncing his name in order to know him.  Jesus made mention many times that by accepting him and his tea

Quite agree. Prostrating oneself involves more Prostrate oneself 1. Lit. to lay oneself out in respect or obedience in front of someone or something. Fall down   to drop or to

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?" Based on John 5:23: "all may hon

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 

 I do not consider this equal. This is where the word worship, as you pointed out, is the act of paying homage. I understand and agree with you on "worship" can mean to bow down, or fall face down. Now what do you do with scriptures that use the same word proskuneō after the description of already being bowed down?

Like for instance Matthew 4:9  "And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 

Is this just homage or is it actual worship? It would be actual worship because the act of bowing down has already been done, thus there would be more to the word proskuneō based on the context. Don't you agree? 

 

I have not managed to work out how to use selective quotes, so will deal with this part of your response first. 

I don't agree with you.   The Greek verb proskuneo primarily means to bow down by prostration (more like we see Muslims do in their daily prayers).   Falling down is not bowing down.   In the scripture you quote, the action suggested was that Jesus should fall down and prostrate himself.  It was an act of subjection, not religious devotion.  

D.

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You do honor your parents in different ways, but the respect you give them is equal. The devotion you give to them (in a normal functioning family) is equal, Their value to you is equal (50% dad's input and 50% mom's for your being here). If I understand your point correctly is that your relationship between them in different. I would agree. As far as honor being the definition of deity, you are correct, but who else in the Bible are we told to honor equally with the Father? There is no one else to which this honor is applied equally, except Jesus.

 

 

The equality is in the description of honor and how that honor is applied. It is a value you place on. Like before, your parents each have a value of 50% of your being brought into this world. This is not an absolute because some people do not place equal value to each of their parents, but for the sake of argument it is what I am using to convey the message. Here in the verse we are talking about equal value is to be placed upon the Son as is to the Father. How one chooses to act this honor out is the difference between what you are I are saying. If we both are called to the Royal palace, how would we show honor to the Queen? Would it be acceptable if we have different ways of doing this? likely not. 

 

The point of the passage is that we are to honour the one sent (the Son) as we honour the sender (the Father) - and as you say, the Father and the Son are not equal.   It is also that we honour the one receiving the auhority (the Son) as we would honour the giver of the authority (the Son).    The Son does not have that authority instrinsically - only the Father has.   In no way is this passage suggesting that Jesus is God.   It is about recognising that authority in judgement and raising the dead that the Father has bestowed on the Son and honouring him accordingly.   Jesus is making a stupendous claim here - but it is not a claim to be God Himself.

D

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

Jesus' immediate response to the claim that he was making himself equal to God was to state that he could do nothing of his own accord.   That is as clear a refutation of the claim as you can get.   Jesus then continues with further statements about his dependence on the Father.

D

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

But you just agreed with me when you said:

" I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son.  "

So your argument is that Jesus was claiming equality with God, even though you accept that Jesus was not equal in authority.  Am I the only one who finds your argument self-contradictory?

D

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On 4/19/2016 at 9:07 PM, Shiwiii said:

"The word "as" does appear in some translations, however the word, "worshiped" does not.  My question remains for Jay:  Do you feel the son should be worshiped as the Almighty Father?  The implication would be the same.  I will be here the rest of the evening for discussions."

 

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Hi Shiwii,

When you say Jay here, do you mistakenly mean me?  There was confusion in the beginning.  I will go ahead and give you my thoughts.

In all cases of the NWT, the word "proskuneo" is never translated as worship when directed toward Christ.  Always it is used as worship toward God and demons.  One must ask why the partiality. I believe we need to ask who has divine authority over the Word of God, men or God?  Using such partiality introduces doctrines of men, and when this happens it would be wise to question our loyalty to such assumptions.

The balance that I believe shows worship due Christ is found in 1 Cor 15:27,28:

"For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him that God may be all in all."

Unwittingly, we can “worship” what receives our loyalty and obedience. 1 Cor 2:14 

1 Samuel gives a great illustration of this:

“Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us,

And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord.

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.      1 Sam 8:19,21,6,7

Expected obedience to the elder body and GB is spoken of quite frequently in the organization.  The word “obeisance” is used continually in the NWT when referring to Jesus.  By translating "proskuneo" when referring to Jesus, his deserved worship is downplayed since the immediate obedience is to the organization, which then transfers to mere obedience to Jesus.  The deserved worship Jesus should directly receive is blocked through what must be obeyed that is visible to the eye, just as what happened in the account of 1 Samuel. 

while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Cor 4:18

We can see this as a rejection of acknowledged authority due Christ.  The early apostles ran into this eagerness by believers, to worship and follow what they saw, which was men, instead of Christ.

And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends.  As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.  But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”  Acts 10:24,26

“ For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.  Now I say this that each of you says, “I am of Paul, or I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?  I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”  1 Cor 1:13-17

This account should cause one to seriously consider the organization’s questions for baptism and our giving identity to it instead of Christ.  From the account in 1 Corinthians, it was a concern that men could be held in higher esteem than Jesus.  If someone is dedicated to, and a follower of Christ, they are a Christian;  whereas any other dedication becomes the desire of our eyes and what we slave to uphold and maintain.  Rom 1:24,25

The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.  John 7:18

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”  Luke 14:11

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

I have not managed to work out how to use selective quotes, so will deal with this part of your response first. 

I don't agree with you.   The Greek verb proskuneo primarily means to bow down by prostration (more like we see Muslims do in their daily prayers).   Falling down is not bowing down.   In the scripture you quote, the action suggested was that Jesus should fall down and prostrate himself.  It was an act of subjection, not religious devotion.  

D.

What is the point of bowing down if one is already bowed down? That is my point. If one is already at the feet of another,  then "prostration" ones self is already done. So then the word proskuneo has to have more of a meaning in those instances. 

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5 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

The point of the passage is that we are to honour the one sent (the Son) as we honour the sender (the Father) - and as you say, the Father and the Son are not equal.   It is also that we honour the one receiving the auhority (the Son) as we would honour the giver of the authority (the Son).    The Son does not have that authority instrinsically - only the Father has.   In no way is this passage suggesting that Jesus is God.   It is about recognising that authority in judgement and raising the dead that the Father has bestowed on the Son and honouring him accordingly.   Jesus is making a stupendous claim here - but it is not a claim to be God Himself.

D

I never said that the Son and the Father were not equal, just the opposite actually.  

Jesus is claiming to be God, or else why would the Jews want to kill him? It is clear in the text, based upon the statement Jesus made. Then He goes on to say we must honor Him just as we honor the Father.

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On 4/19/2016 at 11:09 PM, JaniceM said:

 

God elevates Jesus to a superior position so he would deserve whatever glory, power, honor, etc, that his Father bestows upon him.  The Father does not give his glory to anyone, but the glory Jesus receives, he gives to those that would serve with him.

 

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

 

The Heavenly Father also receives from the newly installed kings(elders with crowns), glory, honor and praise as he deserves having created all things.

 

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

 

When God's kingdom began ruling in the heavens, he took over power and operation in the heavens and soon the earth by appointing Jesus as representative of his kingdom.  Satan has been given power and authority to rule for a time.  When God's kingdom was established in the heavens, he was hurled down to the earth.

 

(Revelation 11:17) saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.


(Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.


(Revelation 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

Hi JaniceM,

 

Yes, these scriptures you have listed show the honor that also will be given to the 144,000 who will serve with Christ – those who will receive their “crowns”. Likewise, Jesus receives worship due in our response to the glory he reflects on the Father. 

 

Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,

 

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!”

 

 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,

 

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

 

 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.  Rev 5:11-14

 

I don’t mean to burden you with another long dissertation for you to struggle over, but I would like to show you how scripture can be turned from its true message into doctrine of men.

 

Rev 1:16,20 - In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Notice what it says in the w12 10/15 pp. 12-16:

 

“We can avoid that kind of attitude if we remember that Jesus has “in his right hand seven stars.” The “stars” mean anointed elders, but what is said about them can also refer to all the elders in the congregations.”

 

Firstly, the stars do not only mean anointed elders, but all anointed ones within the Body of Christ, his Temple priests.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 6:19,20

 

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28,26

 

But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.  1 Cor 12:18       Eph 2:20-22; Ps 119:22; John 2:19,21; 1Cor 12:27; 3:17

 

Keeping in mind the first quote I gave you, now consider this one:

 

“Divinely constituted authority is also a factor within the Christian congregation. Revelation chapter 1 depicts Christ Jesus as holding the “stars” of the congregation in his right hand. (Rev. 1:16, 20) In a general sense, these “stars” represent the bodies of elders, or overseers, in the congregations” w08 3/15 pp. 3-7

 

We are getting closer to the merge.  Anointed ones are becoming more discrete, while an elder body is  turning into the stars in Christ’s right hand.

 

“To avoid that kind of spirit, we can remember that Jesus is pictured in the Bible as having “in his right hand seven stars.” The “stars” represent the anointed overseers and, by extension, all the overseers in the congregations. Jesus can direct the “stars” in his hand in any way he feels appropriate.” w12 10/15 pp. 12-16 - The Watchtower—2012

 

Here is the total transformation from God’s written word to man’s now set doctrine:

 

Jesus is spoken of in the vision of Revelation as having the seven stars of the seven congregations in his right hand. That is, all these bodies of elders have his favor and are under his full control, power, and direction. it-1 pp. 1028-1030

 

Apparently, those chosen to receive the outpouring of Holy Spirit through an anointing is second in value to men praying over other men for a blessing of Holy Spirit, based on scriptural guidelines.  I am sorry to be blunt about this, but it truly shows no fear toward God and his arrangement.  Each anointed has inscribed on the heart and mind, God’s laws. Heb 8:10,10:16; Rom 2:28,29; Rom 5:5;Deut 6:6,8; Rev 14:1 Each anointed one chosen by God is to preserve this law, and through the fruit of the lips serve the people - all of them - as one Body, and as the Temple of God.  Mal 2:7 Heb 13:15

 

 Instead of recognizing this, a group of men whom have not received this Holy Spirit directly from God have more authority than his own anointed priesthood. Christ’s Body represents the true religion.  2 Cor 5:20; 1 Cor 4:1; Mal 2:7; John 7:18,38; Rev 21:6,22:17; 14:3,5 The usurping of authority of the chosen ones is the fault of man made organization that defies God’s laws and therefore blasphemes his name.  2 Thess 2:1-4; 1 Cor 3:17

 

Because of man’s decision to go forward with their own plans over and over again, God has dealt with this before in ancient history and his Levitical priesthood.  He has regarded it as an abomination.

 

 Let no one enter the house of the Lord except the priests and ministering Levites. They may enter, for they are holy, but all the people shall keep the charge of the Lord.  2 Chron 23:6

 

In the house of the Lord, his Temple, only chosen priests were to serve.  The house of the Lord today is Christ’s Body, his Temple members, holy priesthood which are the anointed ones. Since the early temple was a shadow of the heavenly one, it takes the spiritual eye to see that the transgressing of the Temple today is through the elder arrangement esteemed to be the “stars” in Christ’s right hand. 

 

And you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall guard their priesthood. But if any outsider comes near, he shall be put to death.” Numbers 3:10

 

Be careful that you do not forsake the Levite as long as you live in your land.  Deut 12:19

 

And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You[b] have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations.  And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.  “Thus says the Lord God: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary.

 

The elder body are the “others” who have taken the place of the anointed ones; by doing so, God’s sanctuary is profaned. The have “entered” it by replacing God’s choice of whom should serve the people. 

 

 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.   2 Thess 2:3,4

 

For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.  1 Cor 3:9

 

 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you.  If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

 

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

 

 

 

 

 

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I WAS TOTALLY UNAWARE OF THIS FACT UNTIL IT WAS BROUGHT TO OUR ATTENTION BY OUR CIRCUIT OVERSEER.  THE TITLES USED TO REFER TO JEHOVAH, TITLES LIKE GOD, LORD, ALMIGHTY, ETC. APPEAR SOME 2000 PLUS TIMES IN THE BIBLE. THE NAME JEHOVAH APPEARS 7216 TIMES. I THINK THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THE            IMPORTANCE OF USING JEHOVAH'S NAME.

MY NAME IS DWIGHT, HOWEVER IF YOU CALLED ME "HEY GUY" IT WOULD NOT MEAN THE SAME IN TERMS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP. WHY? BECAUSE YOU FAIL TO REALLY GET TO KNOW ME ON A PERSONAL BASIS.

TO DRAW CLOSE TO JEHOVAH, YOU NEED TO KNOW HIM PERSONALLY AND CALL HIM BY THE NAME HE GAVE        HIMSELF.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

What is the point of bowing down if one is already bowed down? That is my point. If one is already at the feet of another,  then "prostration" ones self is already done. So then the word proskuneo has to have more of a meaning in those instances. 

Falling down and prostrating oneself are not the same thing.   

D

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