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Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?


Jack Ryan

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On 4/23/2016 at 8:54 PM, JaniceM said:

 

I understand you are on the road so I'll cease here.  If there are any further issues feel free to reply when you can.  I still have a reply for your 04/19 posting, which I will post within the next day or two.

Hi Janice, 

Got your walking shoes on? :)

Your words, “Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit.”

 “From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections,”

Both these statements seem contradictory to me.  Even though there are conflicting teachings, unfulfilled end time dates, child abuse cases gone to court, evidence brought out by the organization itself that faith in anything like it is idolatry (still, identity to it is required), you still believe the organization is a spiritual paradise?  How do you figure? Or perhaps I need more understanding of your viewpoint.

I believe this view of the organization as a spiritual paradise is dangerous ground.  Considering that there are major problems, but allegiance to it must persist, each heart is placed in jeopardy.  Why should one tolerate major problems when we each are responsible for sole devotion to and in our service to God and Jesus?

 “Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God for it is written,  “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Rom 14:10-12

From the Watchtower:

"We find refuge today in the spiritual security enjoyed by God’s people as a whole." 
"Through “the faithful and discreet slave” and elders in the congregation, we are alerted to trends in the world that could endanger that security." (w11 1/15 pp. 3-7)

If we settle in under such a canopy of what man considers a spiritual paradise, not questioning strange teachings or another one’s hurt feelings, what could happen?

“For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.  But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.”  1 Thess 5:2-4

"They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace". Jer 8:11

“Spiritual paradise” can only be found within us.

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7

Should we hand over our spirituality to men who from one mouth teach a good and bad fruit? Their track record is faulty and cannot compare with Moses, Abraham, or the prophets of old who led people correctly.  If our rulers are misleading and causing confusion how can they be blessed with Holy Spirit?

 Your words, “I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible.” 

I should clarify how this happens.  If I was to spread the words I earlier stated to my fellow JWs after speaking to elders about such a biblical based belief, disfellowshipping ensues, and it happens every day.  Now, if I were to deny scriptural admonition to preach this new found enlightenment for fear of being shunned and then just walk away, I may be left alone and could continue in good standing with the congregation.  But, of course, this goes against scripture to remain silent.  

"Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name."  Heb 13:15

"so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."  1 Pet 1:7.  

The report given in Rom 10:22-21 is concerning this salvation given us by God through Jesus. 

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Rom 10:9

We cannot preach this in the organization and avoid disfellowshipping, since this is a rejection of the image of the organization as a source of salvation.  Rev 13:15  Disfellowshipping is a cutting off, a silencing and a depiction of one viewed as spiritually "dead".

“I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned.  They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine”

Was the institution of the early temple ignored before Jesus came?  The early tabernacle held God’s presence.  Ex 40:36-38.  Later the temple replaced the tabernacle as representation of God’s presence among his people. 2 Chron. 7:16; Ezek. 37:26-28  The newly created Temple, Christ's Body,  through the New Covenant exists within the anointed ones. 

“We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”  Mark 14:58

If we see a spiritual desecration of this “Temple”; an ignorance to its meaning as well as its spiritual understanding, we turn our back on Christ who is “building” it.  1 Pet 2:5; Rev 5:10  It’s original use and meaning was not brushed aside under the Mosaic Covenant, why would it be today under Christ?  The anointed one’s sacrifices offered are not animals as the Mosaic Law required, but it is their own lives used to “bear witness”.  Rev 20:4 God resides in spirit within these “living stones”.   (2 Cor 6:16; Zeph 3:16-20) They make God’s name known.

 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.  John 17:6  (John 14:20)

If anyone lords it over God’s spiritual Temple by their own authority, this is an “abomination”.  The gift offerings expected by God and to be given to the people by these “priests” has ceased under elder rule.  Rom 15:16; 1 Tim 4:16; 2 Pet 1:8; Col 1:10

I believe the opinion you hold (and it is your right) has become the opinion of the anointed ones who lounge within a supposed “spiritual paradise” allowing others to rule over them.

“ So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,  which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.  Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.”

“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”  which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?  These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”  Col 2:16-23

The “worship of angels” is the abnormal admiration given anointed ones – the GB – over the whole of the Body of Christ. Angels are God's messengers, God's messengers are also his "priests". (Mal 2:7)  If the Body is to remain inseparable and to grow through its adherence to each other, superiority and ruling over other members of this Body shows that evidence of those lording it over their own body members as disconnected with the Head, who is Christ. Mark 10:42

“so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.” 1 Cor 12:25,26

This is hardly the case when the “Temple” is treated as such:

Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.  W 16/1 pp. 20-26

This truly is blaspheming God’s name and suffocating the Body of Christ.  The uniting of the congregation is through the unification of the Body and allows Holy Spirit to flow to the advantage of everyone. 1 Cor 2:13  The words of the WT are in severe contradiction to scripture and the building up of the Temple.

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”  1 Cor 3:9-11

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.  1 Cor 3:17

If God calls something holy and it is for the life-giving benefit of all and through Christ, should it not be recognized as the primary source of Holy Spirit?  Little relevance given this Temple is no relevance given Christ; and he, as well as God’s administration become lower in authority than man himself.  This is the making of a mockery of the arm of God. Isa 59:1

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Jesus always referred to God as Father, which should help us realize there is more than just pronouncing his name in order to know him.  Jesus made mention many times that by accepting him and his tea

Quite agree. Prostrating oneself involves more Prostrate oneself 1. Lit. to lay oneself out in respect or obedience in front of someone or something. Fall down   to drop or to

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?" Based on John 5:23: "all may hon

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Can you provide a link so that I may research this as well please? 

As far as I am aware it is not online.  The quote is from my notes which I made when I had to read it as part of a course on exposition I attended while at university.   It is available on Amazon but rather expensive.  I have managed to find a photocopy of pages 364 to 367 which I would happily scan for you.  I don't want to put it on line but would willingly email it to you if you can message me your email address (not a good idea to include it in a post).  

D

 

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9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Interesting that there is not a single copy available in any public library in Southern California. Others in the series, but not the ones by David Aune. 

It is an academic book (it is based on the Greek text and concentrates on the Greek vocabulary) - you will primarily find it in universities or theological schools.  There appear to be copies all across America including Southern California.  

https://www.worldcat.org/title/revelation-1-5/oclc/37812629&referer=brief_results

and

https://www.worldcat.org/title/revelation/oclc/37686762&referer=brief_results

Word Commentaries are written by reputable theologians with expertise in Biblical languages.

https://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=hotseries&q=se%3A%22Word+biblical+commentary%22

D

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On 4/16/2016 at 06:12, Shiwiii said:

However, God appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty.  That was how he was known to them.

Did these know the name? Gen. 4:26.

 

15 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

It is available on Amazon but rather expensive.

Is $24.62 expensive where you are?

http://www.amazon.com/Revelation-1-5-Word-Biblical-Commentary/dp/0849902517?ie=UTF8&keywords=david%20aune&qid=1461835215&ref_=sr_1_3&s=books&sr=1-3

 

You can even view several pages to assess, and if you have an Amazon account, sign in and view page 365 for free.

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6 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

It is an academic book (it is based on the Greek text and concentrates on the Greek vocabulary) - you will primarily find it in universities or theological schools.  There appear to be copies all across America including Southern California.  

https://www.worldcat.org/title/revelation-1-5/oclc/37812629&referer=brief_results

and

https://www.worldcat.org/title/revelation/oclc/37686762&referer=brief_results

Word Commentaries are written by reputable theologians with expertise in Biblical languages.

https://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=hotseries&q=se%3A%22Word+biblical+commentary%22

D

Thank you, I was looking public library. 

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4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

So did Abraham not name that place? 

Gen.22:14. "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh ( יְהוָה יִרְאֶה ): as it is said to this day."

What did God tell Moses at Exodus 6:2&3?  

So what we have is a contradiction, or so it seems. However, our belief in the Bible tells us that there cannot be a contradiction. Moses wrote Genesis, Moses knew Gods name, Moses also wrote most of Exodus. Would Moses put Gods name where it should be, according to inspiration? I'm sure he would. 

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