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IS IT PROPER FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK, TEACH AND PROPHESY?

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6 hours ago, tromboneck said:

Proper? Sure. If she can do it while cooking, cleaning and pregnant and barefooted at the same time

Unfortunately his aim is to use the information from Pearl, which was not the first time, to address religious leadership, not realizing facts in regards to the church's history outs weights the claim. Moreover, some of the verses he had address do not even match up with references and or context, of which I pointed out in regards to an ill use of such, which has been addressed in Biblical Fact 5 above,for this fact originates from a message taken from a message some years ago.

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11 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Genesis 3:16 being one some will point to as well as Paul's use 

What you like to prove with these verse? Do you want to prove how Hierarchy in male-female religious and other principles (God told this to Adam and Eve AFTER they were been exiled from Eden) is HIS original purpose for male and female creatures? God just stated what will generally be  status and how relationships will generally look between male and female in future society that is without God, but under control of devil. Dear Mr. Space, this kind of verse is kind of "Prophecy", kind of looking in future based on circumstances and insight in human, as perfect and imperfect human. We can tell here how God have seen the future of human society and tell just one statement about that. By no means He, as God, not giving here any Command about how must look hierarchy in family, in congregation, in society. He just see what will happen from now on, as result of expelling from Paradise (or Sin, as you wish).  

So as result of sin and imperfection male come to be ruler over female, generally.  

You said how "some will point as well as Paul's use".  Some Bible scholars, i assume, or your friends? Who are that some? Doctors? Professors of archaeology? Who ever they are, they have their opinions with more or less accuracy. So what? Would it be first time that educated and non educated people are wrong in conclusion? You and that some point how Paul must have in mind Genesis 3:16, but Paul not give his reference to Genesis 3:16 BUT to the LAW. Very clearly written. Why you want to make me to read something that is not written in this same verse? Do i have some dyslexia or vision problems and can not see the word Law in Genesis 3:16?

In this God's words you reading how His intention is/was  to regulate male-female relations and put male over female. But that is only your interpretation of Genesis 3:16 and nothing more. In period when all was Perfect, there is no single verse about God's plan that Adam have to control Eve. Read your Genesis chapters 1-3. Nothing about so called "theocratic order" and female place on position you suggest that exist from the Day of Creation. Counting how Adam was first and Eve was second telling nothing how God was made Adam Head of Eve. What verse in Genesis said such?

When talking to God, Adam did not say to God how Eve not respected him as husband and disobey what he told to her. No, he said: "The woman you put here with me"—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”  This have no sound how Eve is second-class in hierarchy. She was there with him. Because God put her there and Adam was aware of that fact. 

Adam was also aware of command about ruling, but ruling over the animals and earth only. Not over the Eve! Here is also one of the reasons why he not acting in different manner, as Head who would reject or accept the idea (so how today the JW congregation would expect him to do so)  when Eve offer him the fruit. He was not in such position, or he not thinking of himself as in such position because, we see how  his answer to God say something else -"The woman you put here with me"

Again, i call you politely  to show Verse from the Law about this, because Paul said in his expose how "For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." 

Ones again, Genesis 3:16 is not part of the Law.  :))))  , on the contrary "some will point" that this is Prophecy. 

 

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Isaiah 3:12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them.

women rule over them

So, here in book of Isaiah, God has objection about woman who rule over man, but He was very satisfied with Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges? Do you want suggesting something about JHVH and why he chose Deborah for leading position over all nation, over all males, elders, patriarchs? Do you have problem with that? Why would God brake his own principle about position of woman (according to some view on this matter) in Israel nation by appointing Deborah to fill an office of leader? Looks like there was no male at the moment to fill that need? I hope she wore a cover on her head  while in service. Or this also would be problem for some people?

She served as Military Leader. She served as Judge. God has not changed, as he himself claim. So, do you suggest how He made a mistake with Deborah? And decide that never again woman will be in position as judge alone, as judge with male partner or as judge above other male members?  

Or do you think that Samson, because he was male, was better Judge then Deborah?

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What you like to prove with these verse? Do you want to prove how Hierarchy in male-female religious and other principles (God told this to Adam and Eve AFTER they were been exiled from Eden) is HIS original purpose for male and female creatures? God just stated what will generally be  status and how relationships will generally look between male and female in future society that is without God, but under control of devil. Dear Mr. Space, this kind of verse is kind of "Prophecy", kind of looking in future based on circumstances and insight in human, as perfect and imperfect human. We can tell here how God have seen the future of human society and tell just one statement about that. By no means He, as God, not giving here any Command about how must look hierarchy in family, in congregation, in society. He just see what will happen from now on, as result of expelling from Paradise (or Sin, as you wish).  

It's not even my prove, it is of the Bible. I even told you, use ANY translation you want, all references for 1 Corinthians 14:34 point back to several verses, which Genesis 3:16 is included among those listed? It can easily be seen here:

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

Extended references point to that of the structure of the family.

I need not prove something that is already in motion, what I have only prove is what has always be and forever will be cannot be changed, for man cannot change the order of things.

Indeed, this is true, God did speak of this to Adam and Eve, but it did not stop anyone long after Adam and Eve to speak of something similar and or making a reference to it, the same can be said of Genesis 3:15, even thought you deem Abraham as selfish, this verse also is enough evidence of the Promise, in regards to the coming Prophet, known as the Christ.

That being said, have you even read the references for Genesis 3:16 itself?

That being said, it is no surprise to anyone who actually pays attention to the references in the Bible in regards to everything and or anything Apostle Paul says, like what was already addressed, God is a God of Order and what is set in motion cannot be changed, the very reason why Paul went back to Creation itself in major parts of each and every part of his work by means of his writings.

Indeed, so is verse 15, and we know that in regards to what Paul addresses, of Creation in which he put into application of the church, it is not a shock to anyone that Paul who even point to such, but apparently, it comes as a shock to you because you have proven yourself to never address any references to a verse, for instance you being in agreement now with Being One in Christ, but elsewhere you call Abraham, who was given the Promise of which is spoken of in Genesis, to be a selfish man.

And the evident mainstream attitude you profess here and all over the place shows this too, so such is already expected, as is the response.

You did show yourself to like Biblehub, how about you start using it now? Or is it the references a bit much for you, Sostar?

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So as result of sin and imperfection male come to be ruler over female, generally.

Not quite. The Ancestral Original Sin did come from Adam and Eve, yes, but what Apostle Paul was conveying in a majority of his work is Creation. As stated by him, God created man first and later on, he created a woman, so there was indeed sometime in between thus making you wrong before when you stated both Adam and Eve were created at the same time. Paul, then addresses that Adam was never deceived, but the woman, Eve, had been deceived and became a transgressor, however, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she continues in faith, love and holiness along with soundness of mind, mind you, this was before The Church of Corinth went bonkers, as this can be seen in the First Epistle of Timothy, you know, the passage I kept pointing out that the both of you are not addressing properly. In the references it shows Paul was addressing Creation in application to the church, as well as the family, Husband, Wife, Offspring, and speaks of them in terms of roles, as he has with the church.

Other than that, your remark of imperfection contradicts what you have said some weeks ago, I will not link it because I know that will vanish, but just know that this has been said and it must be said.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You said how "some will point as well as Paul's use".  Some Bible scholars, i assume, or your friends? Who are that some? Doctors? Professors of archaeology? Who ever they are, they have their opinions with more or less accuracy. So what? Would it be first time that educated and non educated people are wrong in conclusion? You and that some point how Paul must have in mind Genesis 3:16, but Paul not give his reference to Genesis 3:16 BUT to the LAW. Very clearly written. Why you want to make me to read something that is not written in this same verse? Do i have some dyslexia or vision problems and can not see the word Law in Genesis 3:16?

Does one being educated of all things biblical and historical, offend you? I thought you people see that knowledge is power, is it not? Or perhaps one is not to know all things? I really didn't have a choice in learning about the Bible as a mere child, but I accepted it without hesitation because I knew I'd benefit and know who the True God is, and I consider that strict biblical study and teachings as well as history, as a blessing.

I know some Scholars and some Biblical Students, I know some professors also who teach about biblical history and the church, granted they are bias because on some points. How are you so sure they they are not accurate? There is a lot of people who understand the Bible who are indeed knowledgeable in this sense. Especially those who literally lived by the Bible since they were a toddler.

It is not about education, as you want to make it seem, it is about what the Bible says and only what the Bible says in accordance to the historical evidence of the scriptures, the manuscripts, the early church, and other forms of writings of the Apostolic Age. In your case, it is not about education or not, it is about clear ignorance and even with evidence placed before you, you ignore it, this isn't the first time and I will continue to profess what is indeed true because I actually take the initiative to read and research and see the true conclusion.

Well if you actually take the time to look at the references for 1 Corinthians 14:34, it should be obvious, granted when he stated the Law says so, it points to several verses, one of them including Genesis, granted Paul spoke strongly of not just the truth, but of Creation, of The Promised Seed, as well as the Family, core things of which Apostle Paul profess and even by his own students although their views have changed later on.

It is not about what is written in the same verse, it is about understanding in full context of what the verse conveys, granted that the verse in of it self even gives you the references. Like I said read and research and with what is gathered, the context is there and obvious like the sun in the sky or the grass on the ground for it is that clear.

No, the only problem you have is being cryptic, somewhat ignorant and contradicting, and at times, being in your own feelings on things because you do not see it the way the Bible speaks of such. Should I discuss with you on the likes of cursed ones in the Torah Old Testament, your feelings would obviously be expressed as you have done so before. I would not say vision either, let's not forget it was you who stated that such are of your own interpretation and or opinions of what the Bible says when the Bible is the complete opposite.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In this God's words you reading how His intention is/was  to regulate male-female relations and put male over female. But that is only your interpretation of Genesis 3:16 and nothing more. In period when all was Perfect, there is no single verse about God's plan that Adam have to control Eve. Read your Genesis chapters 1-3. Nothing about so called "theocratic order" and female place on position you suggest that exist from the Day of Creation. Counting how Adam was first and Eve was second telling nothing how God was made Adam Head of Eve. What verse in Genesis said such?

God is not a God of favoritism, he is a God of Law as well as a God of Order. In this application is is also in mankind itself for man came first and woman came after and you can even see such being expressed in both the Old and New Testament. For if God didn't have an issue with such, then surely he would not be having issues with someone being equal and or above him, which is not the case, in this same sense, God is above all persons and Spirit Beings. He is above both men and women and is above the Christ, but the application of Order in terms of God all the way to his creation remains intact, it is in the Law, it is in the church and it is in the family, that is something that is unbreakable and those who challenge it are the very ones that are in error for their ways.

This is why I stated even true Christian women would say the same thing of what I m addressing, since you brought up Buddhist in Thailand, look for a True Christian women there and discuss on the matter and see who is in the right.

That being said, anyone who tries to change is is of the mainstream and it is only being done by them for they are in the OK with women being of religious leadership when the reality is this is problematic to what was addressed by means of structure regarding God's view on things as well as the Order of which has been expressed by several, including Apostle Paul.

No one said Theocratic Order, but it is funny now that you are making words up when you realize you put yourself in a box - once again.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When talking to God, Adam did not say to God how Eve not respected him as husband and disobey what he told to her. No, he said: "The woman you put here with me"—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”  This have no sound how Eve is second-class in hierarchy. She was there with him. Because God put her there and Adam was aware of that fact. 

Adam was addressing the fruit he has eaten because Eve, who had been deceived, gave Adam the fruit to eat, the only reason Adam was nervous when God question him about his nakedness. Adam, even before he ate the fruit was aware of Eve, for not only he loved her, he even spoke to God of how the animals have mates which eventually led to Eve's creation by means of Adam's rib.

Again you ignore what Apostle Paul even said. Adam was the first man and Eve was the First Woman. Adam was created first and later on, Eve was created, she was second to be created. Paul addresses Creation in regards to God's Order, Eve was the wife of Adam. This application is in the Bible itself so it is no surprise Paul brought it up, granted references tend to go way back to Genesis when he speaks of anything of the like.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Adam was also aware of command about ruling, but ruling over the animals and earth only. Not over the Eve! Here is also one of the reasons why he not acting in different manner, as Head who would reject or accept the idea (so how today the JW congregation would expect him to do so)  when Eve offer him the fruit. He was not in such position, or he not thinking of himself as in such position because, we see how  his answer to God say something else -"The woman you put here with me"

You still are missing the point, and I do not know whether to be amused or baffled about such. Adam and Eve are not animals, friend, they are humans, extremely distinct from animals. Again you keep bringing up Jehovah's Witnesses when you clearly are up against biblical evidence and history, you are making yourself to be quite the comical one, but at the same time you still refuse to understand what Paul was trying to convey, and you are being ignorant of what is indeed true, just like how the truth about Chloe had been expressed not too long ago.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Again, i call you politely  to show Verse from the Law about this, because Paul said in his expose how "For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." 

Check out the links posted above and see exactly of what Paul was speaking about in terms of Creation, take a good look at 1 Timothy 2:11-14 because as of now you are making yourself out to be foolish, Sostar.

What Paul stated The Law says so, he is addressing creation and such points to several verses.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ones again, Genesis 3:16 is not part of the Law.  :))))  , on the contrary "some will point" that this is Prophecy. 

Well then Biblehub may have it in your you than, or perhaps all Biblical sources that address all cross-references be it exact and or extended. Perhaps they will quake at your exegesis of Chloe too, which is unlikely, for any man can see through that deception.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

women rule over them

So, here in book of Isaiah, God has objection about woman who rule over man, but He was very satisfied with Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges? Do you want suggesting something about JHVH and why he chose Deborah for leading position over all nation, over all males, elders, patriarchs? Do you have problem with that? Why would God brake his own principle about position of woman (according to some view on this matter) in Israel nation by appointing Deborah to fill an office of leader? Looks like there was no male at the moment to fill that need? I hope she wore a cover on her head  while in service. Or this also would be problem for some people?

She served as Military Leader. She served as Judge. God has not changed, as he himself claim. So, do you suggest how He made a mistake with Deborah? And decide that never again woman will be in position as judge alone, as judge with male partner or as judge above other male members?  

Or do you think that Samson, because he was male, was better Judge then Deborah?

It in regards to A Judgment Against Judah, and the references point to Jeremiah 5:31 and Habakkuk 1:4, that is, if you bothered to look at the main references, or perhaps the extension? Job 30:13, Proverbs 28:16, Eccle. 10:16, Isaiah 9:16, 19:14, 28:14, 15, Micah 3:5

Deborah was a Judge of the Nation of Israel, not of the church, and this goes back to Biblical Fact in which you are trying to equal that of the Old Testament when no church existed during that time. Or did you miss purposely when I address Deborah as a Prophetess?

Actually here is where you confuse the information. Prophetess Deborah was the one who gave word to Barak that God gave command him to lead an attack against the forces of the King of Ca'naan and his military commander, Sisera (Judges 4:6–7).The narrative is shown in in chapter 4 of the same book.

The one of whom Deborah spoke to was Barak, for he was a ruler of Ancient Israel as well as a military commander as seen in The Book of Judges. Barak, with Prophetess Deborah, from the Tribe of Ephraim, the prophet and 4th Judge of pre-monarchic Israel, defeated the Canaanite armies led by Sisera. For Sisera was was commander of the Canaanite army of King Jabin of Ha'zor, who is mentioned in Judges 4-5 of the Hebrew Old Testament. After being defeated by the forces of the Israelite Tribes, that of both Zebulun and Naphtali, under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah, Sisera was defeated and was killed by Jael, who hammered a tent peg into his temple.

The fact you didn't mention Barak is awfully silly, granted when we know of his relationship with Prophetess Deborah. Both Barak and Prophetess Deborah had a common interest, and that is: Liberating Israel from Canaanite oppression.

All males of church affilation are only mentioned in The Greek New Testament, so why even mention elders, patriarchs when in the Old Testament, as addressed before, never made any mention of churches?

Samson was a Judge himself, not a leader of a church., in fact, Samson was one of the last of the judges of the ancient Israel.

Including him [Samson] and Deborah, there is: Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Gideon, Abimelech, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, and Abdon. As far as the eye can see, none of them held leadership and or pastoral role of office inside a church, granted such didn't even exist around that time.

 

Unless you are willing to speak of a church of the Old Testament, enlighten me. For such is unfounded, and I have spoken about Deborah many times, mainly in regards of committing Spiritual Warfare and or Civil Disobedience and the fact she is listed as a hero, along with several other, in her case, aiding the military commander, Barak, to save the nation of Israel itself.

 

Here is the Claim and Response from the evidence, as stated before:

Quote

[Claim 5]: Prophetess Deborah

Most people speak of Deborah’s leadership of authority and make this a claim of which women can lead the church.

 [The Response]: As addressed in the evidence above, Prophetess Deborah was a Judge of the Nation of Israel, not a church, of which we see many churches of them solely in the Greek New Testament. Another factor is the Temples of Old, usually sons and Fathers were the ones to be of Priesthood of such, an example would be Aaron, or perhaps Samuel.

 

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20 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

1 Timothy 2:11-14

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

So, Eve was deceived and became sinner. But she was not aware what happened in fact because she was deceived.

So, Adam was not deceived and not became sinner. But Adam made wrong purposely in fully conscious of the act.

 

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20 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

So, Eve was deceived and became sinner. But she was not aware what happened in fact because she was deceived.

So, Adam was not deceived and not became sinner. But Adam made wrong purposely in fully conscious of the act.

At least you appear to be learning, or it may be just another ploy - one will find out eventually. Look at the references in accordance with what Apostle Paul says in regards to Creation. Mind you he addresses this to the Church before it went on it's chaos filled path, which got Chloe and her Household informing Paul, resulting in Paul giving instruction only for the church to change later on as seen in The Second Epistle to Corinthians, written by Paul in Macedonia. You can use Biblehub because it is there, I even mention such to Witness in a response to how his Pearl sees it, hen the Bible says otherwise.

To some extend, it has been address, take a look at what I said already or you can look at the biblical evidence taken from a source:  [5] Biblical Fact which is addressed above on this very page.

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12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Actually here is where you confuse the information. Prophetess Deborah was the one who gave word to Barak that God gave command him to lead an attack against the forces of the King of Ca'naan and his military commander, Sisera (Judges 4:6–7).The narrative is shown in in chapter 4 of the same book.

The one of whom Deborah spoke to was Barak, for he was a ruler of Ancient Israel as well as a military commander as seen in The Book of Judges. Barak, with Prophetess Deborah, from the Tribe of Ephraim, the prophet and 4th Judge of pre-monarchic Israel, defeated the Canaanite armies led by Sisera. For Sisera was was commander of the Canaanite army of King Jabin of Ha'zor, who is mentioned in Judges 4-5 of the Hebrew Old Testament. After being defeated by the forces of the Israelite Tribes, that of both Zebulun and Naphtali, under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah, Sisera was defeated and was killed by Jael, who hammered a tent peg into his temple.

Please Space, if Deborah gave word to Barak, did she only been messenger? I would say that she became, maybe by not her own will, person who take responsibility of leadership as Commander of army too. So by that she was important person in chain of command. And she went on battle field! You said in your explanation that (and confirmed my statement) by saying;"... under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah.." 

You confuse me dear friend :))))

Another woman came on scene. Jael. We see that Deborah and Jael was much more heroic than Barak. SO WHO IS BETTER HEAD IN THIS CASE, FEMALE OR MALE? :))) With Church or without Church, we discuss about does woman have ability, permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition, advice, and similar -  to do same things as male doing. 

After all, both, male and female doing very beautiful and very ugly things. And they are doing that with and/or without God and/or Church! 

I found something interesting on web. Here it is:

God’s reason for choosing Barak for the Israelite commander is not clear. Deborah lived in southern Ephriam. Surely, there was an Israelite man who could lead the Israelites who lived closer than Kedesh, Barak’s home in northern Naphtali. On the other hand, Kedesh was only about 5 miles from Hazor. Barak personal experience with Jabin’s domination motivated him to throw off the Canaanite oppression.

Barak’s caution when Deborah’s called him to be war commander of Israel seems appropriate for three reasons. First, the proximity of Kedesh and Hazor allowed Barak to know the magnitude of Jabin’s army along with its chariots. To Barak, the Canaanite army was beyond formidable. Second, the Bible gave no indication that Barak had battle experience. Likely his father Abinoam was a clan leader in Naphtali (Judges 5:12-13). Probably Barak had experience with decision making for a small group of men, but definitely not for an army of 10,000 men. Third, Deborah held court near Bethel, approximately 80 miles from Barak’s home town. Barak may not have known Deborah well; thus he was not sure that she spoke for God rather than herself. Barak must have been reassured when Deborah agreed to go with the Israelite army. Deborah was putting her life on the line along with Barak and the Israelite men.

Barak’s response showed that he focused on Sisera’s seasoned, well-equipped army rather than God’s power and plan, e.g., God plan to lure the Canaanites into the Kishon river valley. Because of Barak’s failure to fully trust God, this Israelite victory over the mighty Canaanite army is remembered more for Jael’s subterfuge than Barak’s leadership.

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16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

even thought you deem Abraham as selfish,

How can not you to understand that Abraham is just human like others. He did some good and some not good in life. He did something about he can be proud and something that can be discussed an questioned from today standpoint. You want to put him in sky and stars and in same time telling me (expect from me) that i need to adore or even bow down or worship him because of what he is/are or represent. Please be reasonable.

You ask me ones what would i do if i would be in "his sandals", when he an Sara was "acting to be brother and sister"? Let me ask you, just for sake of discussion, you have no obligation to answer,  "What would you do that your wife offer you young girl, her slave, made, friend, what ever she is, because two of you  can not have children (or for some other reason)?" Would you make love with her for such purpose?"

Abraham did so. And it looks he was liked Hagar much and she liked him, and loved her, fall in love with her.  Who wouldn't fall  in love with young beautiful female. Did he broke some principles? If looked from Old patriarchal way of living - No! it was common not only to God chosen people, but also for Not God chosen people (non God worshipers) for Society of those period of time, before and after.  What example and role model giving his experience with Hagar for people living today.

He and Hagar not experienced Gods anger. Only family problems with jealous Sara :))) 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please Space, if Deborah gave word to Barak, did she only been messenger? I would say that she became, maybe by not her own will, person who take responsibility of leadership as Commander of army too. So by that she was important person in chain of command. And she went on battle field! You said in your explanation that (and confirmed my statement) by saying;"... under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah.." 

And yet in your last response you stated this about Prophetess Deborah,


Srecko Quote: "Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges" false information, because we know of Deborah to be a Prophetess and a Judge of the Nation of Israel. As for the past several years, people have negated Deborah's role as a Prophetess of God to make the claim she was indeed a military leader, but they ignore the fact that she was the one given command to give word to Barak in the first place, although she followed Barak, he was the one to lead the tribes mentioned into battle, for such has only been spoken on in prophecy by the Prophetess, as she had done in regards to Jael. We also know these same people do not speak of Barak as being a ruler of Ancient Israel and military commander, mainly when it is known as to who his Father is.

Now, there is no question to anyone that Judges can be and served in some form of military based service, but this is never seen in regards of Prophetess Deborah (perhaps Spiritual Leader as some would say), who was not the one to be physically fighting and or commanding an army, she simply gave word to Barak of what God had said, for God had seen the 20 years of oppression. We know some Judges did fight and lead people, for instance, Judge Shamgar, who slaughtered about 600 Philistines with an ox goad and or cattle goad and he is accredited to have saved Israel as seen in Judges 3:31, despite succumbing to death in his 1st year of being a Judge, according to Josephus, we also have Gideon, and Ehud, to name a few, perhaps Samson, who fought in a battle himself. Granted that both Deborah and Barak were dealing with Sisera, and what we know Sisera is capable of and what he tends to do with his so called spoils, clearly Deborah would not be in the battlefield, and granted she was a Prophetess, compared to the others who are of the same role as her.

We know the actual truth of the matter when we read the following verse:

  • Judges 4:4-5 - [4] Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. [5] She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.

 

Now then Srecko, I stated you are confusing the information because we see nowhere that Prophetess Deborah served as a military commander or the like (something of which other Judges who I have mentioned already, have done, but not this Prophetess), and it is already know that she is a Judge of the Nation of Israel. She did give a message, granted her position as not only a Judge of the Nation of Israel, but also a Prophetess, remember, a Prophetess is a female counterpart of a Prophet, we should already be aware of what a Prophet actually is: a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.

Continuing on from the verses above we also read the following to correct these claims of yours: "I would say that she became, maybe by not her own will, person who take responsibility of leadership as Commander of army too. So by that she was important person in chain of command. "

  • [6] She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him, “Has not the Lord [YHWH], the God of Israel, commanded you, ‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. [7] And I will draw out Sisera, the general of Jabin's army, to meet you by the river Kishon with his chariots and his troops, and I will give him into your hand’?”

We can see here that she summoned Barak for God has used her in order to summon and choose Barak in the first place, for Barak was indeed both a ruler and an actual military commander and had she said these things to him as well as making known to him a fortelling, for if she had led the military and or is a military commander, it would have stated that in the Book of Judges and there wouldn't be a need for Barak or God having the Prophetess send for him, but clearly we see nothing of the sort because we know of how Barak's involvement by means of Scripture. After contacting Barak and informing him of the situation and what God had said, Barak said the following in the next verse:
 

  • [8] Barak said to her [Deborah], “If you will go with me, I will go, but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” [9] And she said, “I will surely go with you. Nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.”
     

And as I said, both Deborah and Barak had the same common interest in liberating Israel from an enemy, and because of this, Prophetess Deborah went with Barak.

  • [9b] Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh. [10] And Barak called out Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh. And 10,000 men went up at his heels, and Deborah went up with him.


As for your next response, how are you so sure that she went onto the Battlefield fighting and leading? Of all people a Judge who is a Prophetess unless you are willing to show us a verse or two, or perhaps a passage? The account very clear, for it states that Deborah went with Barak, for Barak not only allowed her to follow him due to common interest, but because God's presence by means of the Prophetess, you know, the same God who through Deborah who summoned Barak a military commander to begin with. Moreover, we see in the verses itself of who is leading Zbulun and Naphtali to Kedesh to begin with, we see who is leading the 10,000 men among such ones, and Deborah followed went with them, and not only does the Bible says such, but historic accounts that lines up with the Bible says so as well.

Here is an actual fact: Deborah summoned Barak, the son of Abinoam, from his home at Kedesh in Naphtali, and ordered him, in the name of YHWH, to take ten thousand men to Mount Tabor. He agrees to on condition that Deborah should go with him. Here he was attacked, as Deborah had expected, by Sisera, whose forces were put to flight, and the greater part of them slain, by Barak's army (Barak, Jewish Encyclopedia)

So your response: So by that she was important person in chain of command. And she went on battle field! 
 

Is unfounded for even Biblical and historical facts of the Hebrew Bible speaks for itself, hence no mention of her actually fighting and taking chair in the field itself. The fighting forces were led by and commanded by Barak to fight against Sisera and his army. Deborah was a Prophetess and a Judge who also was very not liking of Sisera, who by means of God summoned Barak and foretold what was to come, and because of this, Barak accepts in condition that Deborah comes with him, in which she does for the both of them to see it through that their enemy, and God's enemy, is defeated.

Plus it is evident that everyone and anyone is aware that Barak is God's chosen military leader for the task at hand.


As for this: You said in your explanation that (and confirmed my statement) by saying;"... under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah.." 

If you actually took into account the whole statement I made I said the following, why stop at a small portion? Anyways the quote in full was this: The one of whom Deborah spoke to was Barak, for he was a ruler of Ancient Israel as well as a military commander as seen in The Book of Judges. Barak, with Prophetess Deborah, from the Tribe of Ephraim, the prophet and 4th Judge of pre-monarchic Israel, defeated the Canaanite armies led by Sisera. For Sisera was was commander of the Canaanite army of King Jabin of Ha'zor, who is mentioned in Judges 4-5 of the Hebrew Old Testament. After being defeated by the forces of the Israelite Tribes, that of both Zebulun and Naphtali, under the command of Barak and Prophetess Deborah, Sisera was defeated and was killed by Jael, who hammered a tent peg into his temple.

We know that Barak and Deborah were not friends with Sisera who was of the enemy of whom the people of Israel had been oppressed by Jabin, the king of Ca'naan, whose capital was Ha'zor, for 20 years - the very reason this Prophetess and Judge came into play to begin with.

Barak was the one who gave command and Deborah's command came forth by means of a message, from God which led to the summoning of Barak, check out the references if you have the time. For, we are even aware of what Prophetess Deborah had stated when she said the following in Judges 4:14:

  • Go! This is the day the Lord has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lord gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him.
7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You confuse me dear friend :))))

Why would I be confuse about something of the Hebrew Old Testament of which I had read through and studied time and time again for nearly 18+ years? The confusion is your claim that Deborah was a military commander of some sort, we do not see anything of the like in the Book of Judges (although some who make this claim negate/exclude Barak totally), so I'd be careful to speak of confusion, after all, you have shown confusion throughout this thread, just as you have with Chloe.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Another woman came on scene. Jael. We see that Deborah and Jael was much more heroic than Barak. SO WHO IS BETTER HEAD IN THIS CASE, FEMALE OR MALE? :))) With Church or without Church, we discuss about does woman have ability, permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition, advice, and similar -  to do same things as male doing. 

Yes, Jael, also known as Yael, The wife of Heber the Kenite (a non-Israelite), in addition, the Kenite people were a Nomadic Tribe, some of whom lived very close to the Israelite people. In the Bible, it records a number of cases of intermarriage of the people, and the father-in-law of Moses was apparently a Kenite, but it is not clear if this was in fact Jethro. She is mentioned in the Book of Judges in the Hebrew Bible, as the heroine/hero who killed Sisera to deliver Israel from the troops of King Jabin. The last time we spoke of her you were against her actions, as in Spiritual Warfare and Civil Obedience and the very fact she is seen as a hero, to even women today, granted her title being: Slayer of The Canaanite Army Chief, Sisera.

After Sisera was defeated by Barak's forces, he fled to a neutral Heber camp, and this is where he has met with the woman, Jael, who had invited him into her tent. Jael took care of him, she then covered him with a blanket. When Sisera asked for water she gave him a bowl of curdled milk to drink. While being very relaxed, Sisera was the one to had ask her to stand guard, for he knew being defeated, Barak's forces would come for him. For he had thought to himself that he was secured by means of Jael. Eventually, Sisera fell asleep for it is evident this man was exhausted, granted how he fled this far out. At this moment, Jael, took this opportunity to take up a tent peg, sneak into the tent of where Sisera was sleeping in, then she quietly went to him, armed with a hammer and a tent peg that she drove through his head, instantly killing Sisera in his sleep.

Barak finally tracked down the last area Sisera was in only for Jael to confront Barak and showed him the corpse/dead body of The Army Chief, Sisera, for Sisera is now dead at the hand of a woman,  as foretold by Prophetess Deborah foretold in Judges 4:9 and 17-22.

  • And she said, “I will surely go with you. Nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.” Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh.
  • [17] But Sisera fled away on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite. [18] And Jael came out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Turn aside, my lord; turn aside to me; do not be afraid.” So he turned aside to her into the tent, and she covered him with a rug. [19] And he said to her, “Please give me a little water to drink, for I am thirsty.” So she opened a skin of milk and gave him a drink and covered him. [20] And he said to her, “Stand at the opening of the tent, and if any man comes and asks you, ‘Is anyone here?’ say, ‘No.’” [21] But Jael the wife of Heber took a tent peg, and took a hammer in her hand. Then she went softly to him and drove the peg into his temple until it went down into the ground while he was lying fast asleep from weariness. So he died. [22] And behold, as Barak was pursuing Sisera, Jael went out to meet him and said to him, “Come, and I will show you the man whom you are seeking.” So he went in to her tent, and there lay Sisera dead, with the tent peg in his temple.

Because of Jael's actions, and courageous act against a threat to the Israelites, the one who was deemed an enemy of God, this prompted a song of victory of Prophetess Deborah, Judge of the Nation of Israel, and of military commander and ancient ruler of Israel, Barak, which also pronounces Jael most blessed among women as seen in Judges 5:6 and 24-27.
 

  • “In the days of Shamgar, son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were abandoned, and travelers kept to the byways.
  • [24] “Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed. [25] He asked for water and she gave him milk; she brought him curds in a noble's bowl. [26] She sent her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen's mallet; she struck Sisera; she crushed his head; she shattered and pierced his temple. [27] Between her feet he sank, he fell, he lay still; between her feet he sank, he fell; where he sank, there he fell—dead.

As for your response: With Church or without Church, we discuss about does woman have ability, permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition, advice, and similar -  to do same things as male doing. 


The focus from the start was of the church and religious leadership, and even before that it was already stated using Deborah's role as Prophetess and Judge has nothing to do with church leadership and or the like. It is already established that a JW or anything of them will not save you here, and it is most likely the Admin will not save you here also.


But I like how you attempt to shift religious leadership into the Hebrew Old Testament of things, classic Srecko Sostar when it comes to adding and or changing discussion as time progresses, mind you, you seem to show opinion and feeling of church leadership prior to this, but I guess the so called story that sister was indeed made up after all if you changed this fast.


But what I find quite amusing is not too long ago you said the following: Do you want suggesting something about JHVH and why he chose Deborah for leading position over all nation, over all males, elders, patriarchs? 


The thing is, the focus of the discussion of of women, yes, but of religious leadership roles, if you forgot, read through the first page again, remember, you did try to twist and use Paul's work already.
 

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

O WHO IS BETTER HEAD IN THIS CASE, FEMALE OR MALE? :)))

And why must the game of favoritism be played? Last I checked, none of these women had anything to do with religious leadership of authority and or hold pastoral office in a church.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

After all, both, male and female doing very beautiful and very ugly things. And they are doing that with and/or without God and/or Church! 

The Hebrew Old Testament has some of the most brutal things that had taken place, such being from either men or women in this case. But nowhere in the Hebrew Old Testament it is shown that women held an office in a Church. Using a Prophetess and a Judge is seen as cowardly in terms of discussion, granted the actual Biblical Fact technically foreshadowed such in this regard, mainly by the likes of you, Sostar.


Therefore, as I said earlier in this discussion, using a Prophetess does not prove religious leadership, and using someone like Deborah is not going to help either, granted she is a not just a Prophetess, but a Judge among Judges of Israel.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I found something interesting on web. Here it is:

Of course you did, and that infomration also defeats your earlier response, let's see how this is actucally true.
Also I found the source of where you pulled that information (of course the very first link of Google via search, typical move made by typical people)

    Hello guest!

I show the link here so people can see where you got your information.

You also seem to skip the very first parts and skip straight to Analysis.
 

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

God’s reason for choosing Barak for the Israelite commander is not clear. Deborah lived in southern Ephriam. Surely, there was an Israelite man who could lead the Israelites who lived closer than Kedesh, Barak’s home in northern Naphtali. On the other hand, Kedesh was only about 5 miles from Hazor. Barak personal experience with Jabin’s domination motivated him to throw off the Canaanite oppression.

Barak’s caution when Deborah’s called him to be war commander of Israel seems appropriate for three reasons. First, the proximity of Kedesh and Hazor allowed Barak to know the magnitude of Jabin’s army along with its chariots. To Barak, the Canaanite army was beyond formidable. Second, the Bible gave no indication that Barak had battle experience. Likely his father Abinoam was a clan leader in Naphtali (Judges 5:12-13). Probably Barak had experience with decision making for a small group of men, but definitely not for an army of 10,000 men. Third, Deborah held court near Bethel, approximately 80 miles from Barak’s home town. Barak may not have known Deborah well; thus he was not sure that she spoke for God rather than herself. Barak must have been reassured when Deborah agreed to go with the Israelite army. Deborah was putting her life on the line along with Barak and the Israelite men.

Barak’s response showed that he focused on Sisera’s seasoned, well-equipped army rather than God’s power and plan, e.g., God plan to lure the Canaanites into the Kishon river valley. Because of Barak’s failure to fully trust God, this Israelite victory over the mighty Canaanite army is remembered more for Jael’s subterfuge than Barak’s leadership.

You stated that Deborah who served as military and legal leader for nation in book of Judges.


The information you linked stated otherwise. An the primary focus of this linked information was of Barak.


Granted he, Barak, was the Son of Abinoam of Kedesh within the territory of Naphtali. During an early period in the time for 20 years the people endured oppression by Jabin, the king of Ca'naan- it is history after all. The oppressed ones cried out to God, and eventually it was then that Barak became their appointed leader as we can read in Judges 4:1-3.


On the other hand, the oppressors under Jabin were heavily armed to the teeth as we can see in Judges 5:8. But, in Barak’s day, God gave Israel victory over their foes, a a fight that was won and such that was not forgotten, see Psalms 83:9. Only 2 accounts of these matters are shown in the Bible and by means of history, an that is in the Book of Judges, the chapters already being known because it has already been mentioned, and the both of them are complements each other and shows us a clear picture of what took place during that time.

That being said, God has not broke his own principle in regards to the Church, granted churches only came about in and around Jesus' day, from infancy to adulthood into his death and resurrection, hence what was said in The Gospel of Matthew chapter 16 and what was seen onward. But attempting to compare Judges to a church will not do much for you, granted I even stated that women do have roles and I told you before that some women, including Sarah (of whom you called her Husband, Abraham, Selfish), are seen as Heroes, but it is not surprise you say something different oppose to what you have stated before, this goes for Jael too.


That being said, you pretty much linked information from a source that only defeats what you said originally, you can't delete that one.


And you've yet to prove the case on Chloe because after being corrected (the very reason you shift away from her in regards to your claim), once again, you make no mention of such, if you want we can speak on Judges, but as stated before, using a Judge over the nation of Israel, granted on ho such ones are Judges to begin with, let alone attempting to use a Prophetess of the Hebrew Old Testament to make a justification for something in the Greek New Testament, the church, is nothing more than a feeble struggle, of which can be seen here.


I did you a favor on using your own link to direct you on all information about Jael, but unlike you I do not selected a small portion, the link explains everything, not solely the analysis alone:

    Hello guest!

Other than that you've yet to show us Deborah, a Prophetess was actually taking charge here in terms of leading the fighters into battle or being in the battle itself. She can be present, yes, but actually leading and fight - unlikely. For if Shamgar, who is a Judge himself, was in a position to do so and it was mentioned in the Bible - his battle, him actually fighting, etc., why is it you cannot do the same for Deborah? Because it is unfounded, and the very fact you haven't mention Barak till now (the source itself, not you) or no mention of who his Father is speaking volume and is very telling, just as your claim of Chloe being a church leader in Corinth when the evidence amounts before you.

Read your Bible and understand it, otherwise you'll be corrected.

That being said, nothing here makes proof to claim of church leadership, mainly when speaking of Apostle Paul who was not a leader of an army, a nation and or other, he was a leader of a church, an Apostle or as some would say, a Saint.
 

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@Srecko Sostar 

31 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How can not you to understand that Abraham is just human like others. He did some good and some not good in life. He did something about he can be proud and something that can be discussed an questioned from today standpoint. You want to put him in sky and stars and in same time telling me (expect from me) that i need to adore or even bow down or worship him because of what he is/are or represent. Please be reasonable.

You ask me ones what would i do if i would be in "his sandals", when he an Sara was "acting to be brother and sister"? Let me ask you, just for sake of discussion, you have no obligation to answer,  "What would you do that your wife offer you young girl, her slave, made, friend, what ever she is, because two of you  can not have children (or for some other reason)?" Would you make love with her for such purpose?"

Abraham did so. And it looks he was liked Hagar much and she liked him, and loved her, fall in love with her.  Who wouldn't fall  in love with young beautiful female. Did he broke some principles? If looked from Old patriarchal way of living - No! it was common not only to God chosen people, but also for Not God chosen people (non God worshipers) for Society of those period of time, before and after.  What example and role model giving his experience with Hagar for people living today.

He and Hagar not experienced Gods anger. Only family problems with jealous Sara :))) 

Did you forget what you stated in your own words and yet contridiction your very words here also?

That being said, you should also be very aware of Sarah agreement with Abraham in regards to Hagar, mind you, she wanted a son. Also I asked you what if you were in Abraham's sandals int terms of the Sister-Wife narrative, not of Hagar, do not try shift what was asked of you, Sostar because it can most definitely be used against you, just like the claim of yours that Abraham was selfish, when his action was the very reason Jesus was born in Bethlehem and what was spoken of in Galatians 3:28, 29, which is not a true statement of being One in Christ, but of the one of whom Paul speaks of, the mane named Abraham, who whom you called selfish.

Other than that, if you want to continue speaking of Abraham, do so in the other thread, because this time Admin will not come to save you here, therefore, keep the discussion as it is, of women and of religious leadership because clearly, the Old Testament is not even in your favor right now, and it will never be in regards to the topic.

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I should have brought this out before; but then, I have many times under other topics. 

JWs are aware there are both genuine anointed ones,  and those who are not anointed within their congregations.  Of all religions, this is a unique truth specific to the Watchtower organization.  What has been lost over the years, is their identity behind the term, “anointed”.

They are chosen by God as His “special people”. 

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” 1 Pet 2:9

They are His priesthood, of both men and women under Christ, their High Priest. 

1 Pet 2:5 - you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The spiritual house that they become, is the Temple of God; built on the apostles and prophets – built on the Body of Christ.  1 Cor 3:16,17

“built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building, being put together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you are also being built together for God’s dwelling in the Spirit.”  Eph 2:20-22

They are a “new creation” – neither male or female – to serve as one Body under Christ. 

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, and see, the new has come!”  2 Cor 5:17

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do.”  Eph 2:10

They are “kings”, “rulers” once sealed in the Kingdom of God.  Yes, even the women!   They can be sealed as heavenly kings even while on earth.  Rev 5:9,10; Eph 4:30

The only King who rules over them is the King of kings, Lord of lords – Jesus Christ and their High Priest.  Would he allow other “kings” to take his place?   If all are rulers, should one among them rule over another? As I’ve said, the position of leader within the Body is much different than expecting blind obedience to either a man or a woman. 

When looking at the early priesthood, all priests under Aaron, the High Priest, were to listen to him.

They are also, the Bride of their “husband”, Christ. 

They are a “brotherhood” – unless someone believes Paul was only directing his words to women.

They are “living sacrifices” offering themselves for all who will gain life in the Kingdom. 

Chosen people, holy priesthood, living sacrifices, living stones, spiritual house, Temple of God, brotherhood, virgin “wives”,  bondservants….and “sons” of God.  ( Add to this, are the gifts bestowed on each within this Body.) 

All of these characteristics are spiritual and symbolic, having nothing to do with the flesh.  They are a new creation of God, selected to serve His children in the Kingdom.  Why is this so hard to understand?  Why do men limit God’s ability to chose both men and women of His creation and “form” them, refine them, teach them His decrees (if and only if, they are willing to submit to Him and His Son) for His purpose to bring blessings, riches and knowledge from His throne to those “children” on earth who love Him?  Why is it so hard to perceive one’s flesh has nothing to do with it? 

It is the new thing that God had planned long ago to be established when His Son came to earth.   Jer 31:22; Micah 4:8

“Then He spoke a parable to them: “No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old one; otherwise the new makes a tear, and also the piece that was taken out of the new does not match the old. 37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined. 38 But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved. 39 And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”  Luke 5:36-39

“It is the Spirit who gives lifethe flesh profits nothingThe words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”  John 6:63

“For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.  Phil 3:3 (Rom 2:29)

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22 hours ago, Witness said:

I should have brought this out before; but then, I have many times under other topics. 

JWs are aware there are both genuine anointed ones,  and those who are not anointed within their congregations. 

As is others, this is no surprise to anyone. What you should have also mentioned is that those chosen and or destined for Priesthood, the fruits after Jesus, are chosen, not self-chosen and it is known by those, as some would say, are invited by God. There have been people who predate even us who is of the chosen ones and like those days, those chosen and those of the church are in total awareness of such.

Also it is not a sole racial/ethnic group that will benefit from Priesthood, granted the Bible says otherwise.

22 hours ago, Witness said:

They are a “new creation” – neither male or female – to serve as one Body under Christ. 

Yes, this is known, they are stones as well of the House, but that does not make means of something that is not of the church, of which you and Sostar are high-fiving each other about. And I explain and corrected you on this before as well, if I recall.

22 hours ago, Witness said:

They are also, the Bride of their “husband”, Christ. 

They are a “brotherhood” – unless someone believes Paul was only directing his words to women.

They are “living sacrifices” offering themselves for all who will gain life in the Kingdom. 

Already known.

22 hours ago, Witness said:

Chosen people, holy priesthood, living sacrifices, living stones, spiritual house, Temple of God, brotherhood, virgin “wives”,  bondservants….and “sons” of God.  ( Add to this, are the gifts bestowed on each within this Body.) 

Ok, but do you recall what you said before on this? Such ones who are also chosen are not of the normal Jerusalem that each and every one of us know today, but even those who are chosen are still bounded by the church, as if our history, mainly the church on the rock, as taught us anything.

22 hours ago, Witness said:

It is the new thing that God had planned long ago to be established when His Son came to earth.   Jer 31:22; Micah 4:8

Interesting, why equal these 2 verses together in regards to referring to new thing?

 

As for the rest, nothing of which you have stated here has anything to do with what was talked about. If you want to speak on Being One with the Christ and of Priesthood, that is all in good intention, then so be it, however, using the Being One with Christ to profess a practice that is not of the church is borderline heresy, but what to think of those who consider and or in agreement with such who make the claim that Chloe was in fact a church leader, hen the reality is, this peacemaker had nothing to do with leading a church.

I guess no one pays attention to Matthew 16 nowadays, giving the Agnostics more fuel to fire their torches.

 

Anyways, another day at the office it seems, mainly after returning from Africa, and it is still seen that you are connecting verses together without knowing if the context matches up or not, I leave that homework with you because in your case, this isn't the first time. As I told Sostar, read each and every verse for context, read the passages and or verses that are in direct connection with said passage because this had been talked about before, and I not going to bring up your pass discussion with in some degree is in parallel with what you just said, let alone going about in defense of something that didn't originate with no one 2,000 years ago, furthermore, I invite you to take some historical lessons on both the Bible and the Church as well as the 12 Apostles.

You are there, yes, but you still trip over yourself, perhaps, purposely.

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33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

What you should have also mentioned is that those chosen and or destined for Priesthood, the fruits after Jesus, are chosen, not self-chosen and it is known by those, as some would say, are invited by God.

I know this.  JWs know this. 

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Yes, this is known, they are stones as well of the House, but that does not make means of something that is not of the church,

Have no clue what you are saying.

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Such ones who are also chosen are not of the normal Jerusalem that each and every one of us know today,

Obviously.  They are under the "woman" covenant, New Jerusalem.  Gal 4:26,24  The Bride is the fulfillment of that covenant.  Rev 21:2

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

sing the Being One with Christ to profess a practice that is not of the church is borderline heresy

The "church" is the anointed body.  This anointed body is one with Christ.  This is not heresy, but scripture.    As long as you see things only physically, you will not understand this spiritual Temple of God.  1 Cor 3:16,17 ; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Eph 2:20-22

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

furthermore, I invite you to take some historical lessons on both the Bible and the Church as well as the 12 Apostles.???

2

 Do now, and will continue to do.  :)   

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You are there, yes, but you still trip over yourself, perhaps, purposely.?

We all trip occasionally, don't we!  

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17 minutes ago, Witness said:

I know this.  JWs know this. 

51 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Everyone does, they know it too.

17 minutes ago, Witness said:

Have no clue what you are saying.

hat I am saying it is already known as to what the Living Stones are and of what they make up - this is a direct reference to what I was discussed before.

18 minutes ago, Witness said:

Obviously.  They are under the "woman" covenant, New Jerusalem.  Gal 4:26,24  The Bride is the fulfillment of that covenant.  Rev 21:2

And yet last time you confused Earthly with Heavenly, hence the references: not of the normal Jerusalem that each and every one of us know today For some people think Earthly and Heavenly are the same, not knowing the difference between the two and I recall this correction was made in regards of you before, which is why I mention the mixing of verses that do not connect with only lead to problematic understanding, but than again, you seem to have taken the information from elsewhere.

For Earthly Jerusalem had rejected Jesus, the Bride, of which is obviously symbolic, is the Holy City, Heavenly [New] Jerusalem.

Unless you thing the Bride is a literal woman, you are the first to make this notion.

And yes, this is true, but the Bride is included of this New Covenant, which consist of those of Priesthood and the Heirs, according to Paul in Galatians 3.

Also Galatians 4:24 and 26, in terms of symbolism, New Jerusalem is not bounded, she is free, you do realize Paul speaks of two of which represents the Old and New Covenant? If anything, the Bride, associated with the New Covenant is the only one that is free, a free woman who is not bounded, I believe this had been in discussion elsewhere, not here or any of older discussions.

The Old Covenant represents Hagar, although used in symbolism to the Sinaitic Covenant, it came about in the days of Moses, as for the other, came about in the days of Jesus.

For again, here we see Paul use symbolism, for both Hagar and Sarah were not literal in regards to the Covenants, but rather, one being bounded, a slave girl, the other being a free woman, who is not bounded. It is also good to mention Paul takes from Prophet Isaiah, to some extent, when he explains these things.

As for the other verse, yes, what can be said is I agree with Ezekiel, for this Temple, is indeed marvelous and it's measurements is like no other, as well as what it actually is and who resides in them.

31 minutes ago, Witness said:

The "church" is the anointed body.  This anointed body is one with Christ.  This is not heresy, but scripture.    As long as you see things only physically, you will not understand this spiritual Temple of God.  1 Cor 3:16,17 ; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Eph 2:20-22

You do realize I am talking about that came about in Jesus' day. The Church is indeed the people, as a whole, however, the church itself in terms of God's Will and Order is how it is strtured

And again, it is wise to use Being One in Christ passages as well as The Spiritual House, in this regard, however, like before, it has nothing to do with Paul's clear addressing of God's Order of things within the church itself, mainly if you take the sheer seriousness of historical fact in terms of such things.

The Spiritual House has really nothing to do with structure in terms of God's Order and Will regarding the church of which, the people, who is of the church, dwell in for religious worship.

35 minutes ago, Witness said:

 Do now, and will continue to do.  :)   

Well you have to because whether you realize it or not, there are those who is clearly out of both of our leagues who want to change such, and not knowing how things are will easily sweep us away into those who sided with such persons who think they can turn the Bible and the Church into millennial like circus and a list of other things that if our church father's had lived to see this day, the Apostles and their students, they would not be in total agreement with and will be the very ones to make the correction, perhaps other means instead of letters, for I cannot picture in my head any of the Apostle using a computer or a smartphone in order to do such.

That being said, to be aware and knowledgeable of these things, you do so in favor of our early Christian brothers and sisters, mainly people like Paul, but to do otherwise, even not understanding a passage, mainly for those who take Paul's letter to the Corinth out of context, it will pose as a problem, and like all problems, it should be corrected.

39 minutes ago, Witness said:

We all trip occasionally, don't we!  

Not to the point of getting blisters and scabs and perhaps a trip to the Emergency Room. However, such rarely happens to those who literally take up the sword before they could even walk - that sword (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5, 2 Timothy 2:15).

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12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Everyone does, they know it too.

You said, What you should have also mentioned is that those chosen and or destined for Priesthood, the fruits after Jesus, are chosen, not self-chosen and it is known by those, as some would say, are invited by God.

Which is why I responded,  “I know this.  JWs know this”.

12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Unless you thing the Bride is a literal woman, you are the first to make this notion.

I have never directed my attention to the earthly Jerusalem.  The Bride is the new creation of heavenly Jerusalem.  They are both human and “angel”.    1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:27;1 Cor 15:44; Heb 8:5; 1 Cor 3:16; Ezek 41:18,19   

    Hello guest!

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly”  Heb 12:22

“Set your mindon things above, not on earthly things.”   Col 3:2      That should include the idea that women cannot be "leaders".  

12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The Spiritual House has really nothing to do with structure in terms of God's Order and Will regarding the church of which, the people, who is of the church, dwell in for religious worship.

1

The House of God IS HIS Temple, built on Christ.  It has everything to do with structure according to God’s will.  You are not making that link, but dare I tell YOU anything? ?

1 Kings 8:27; Acts 7:47-51; Ps 127:1; John2:19-22; Matt  16:18; 1 Cor 3:10,11; Heb 11:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22; 4:4; 4:11-13; 1Cor 12:4,5,12-14,27-31    

    Hello guest!

In general, Space Merchant, as knowledgeable as you are, you assume to know all that I believe. (I think I've said that before) You target many of my statements with misconceptions.  And as I see, you seem to keep a cork board pinned with every remark that grates against you (which I see you have done elsewhere here, to Srecko)

I am here to expose the two threats to God’s anointed ones during the last days.  They are found where the anointed and their companions reside.  The Watchtower.  Can we agree to disagree?  I have my mind set on the heavenly fulfillment of things, not on the earthly. John 4:21-24

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”  Matt 7:24-27

John 4:21-24

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:
On 8/19/2018 at 7:21 AM, Witness said:

I should have brought this out before; but then, I have many times under other topics. 

JWs are aware there are both genuine anointed ones,  and those who are not anointed within their congregations. 

As is others, this is no surprise to anyone. What you should have also mentioned is that those chosen and or destined for Priesthood, the fruits after Jesus, are chosen, not self-chosen and it is known by those, as some would say, are invited by God.

Let reminds population how WT magazine explain some ideas? :)))

STUDY ARTICLES FOR: FEBRUARY 29–APRIL 3, 2016

The Spirit Bears Witness With Our Spirit

HAVE YOU BEEN CALLED?

15 Perhaps you are wondering if you have received this wonderful invitation. If you think that you might have, ponder some important questions. Do you feel that you have more than average zeal in the ministry? Are you a keen student of God’s Word who loves to delve into “the deep things of God”? (1 Cor. 2:10) Have you seen Jehovah’s special blessing on your ministry? Do you have a burning desire to do Jehovah’s will? Do you have a deep inner feeling of responsibility to help others spiritually? Have you seen proof that Jehovah has personally intervened in your life? If you answer these questions with a resounding yes, does this mean that you now have the heavenly calling? No, it does not. Why not? Because these are not unique feelings experienced only by those who have the heavenly calling. Jehovah’s spirit works with equal force in those who have the hope of living forever on earth. In fact, if you are wondering whether you have received the heavenly calling,that would in itself indicate that you have not received it. Those called by Jehovah do not wonder whether they have been invited or not! They know! 

15. What does not prove that a person has been anointed by holy spirit?

WHAT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF THOSE PARTAKING AT THE MEMORIAL?

12 In recent years, we have seen an increase in the number of those partaking at the Memorial of Christ’s death. That trend contrasts with the decrease in the number of partakers that we saw for many decades. Should this increase trouble us? No. Let us consider some key factors to keep in mind. 13 “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Tim. 2:19) Those taking the count at the Memorial cannot judge who truly have the heavenly hope. The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Therefore,the number of partakers does not accurately indicate the number of anointed ones left on earth. 14 Anointed ones will be present in many parts of the earth when Jesus comes to gather them to heaven. Speaking of that time, the Bible says regarding Jesus: “He will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.” (Matt. 24:31) The Scriptures do indicate that only a remnant of the anointed ones will be left on earth during the last days. (Rev. 12:17) However, the Bible does not state how many will be left at the time that the great tribulation begins. 15 Jehovah chooses when in history he will select anointed ones. (Rom. 8:28-30) Jehovah began choosing anointed ones after Jesus’ death and resurrection, and it seems that all in the first-century Christian congregation were anointed. From the first century until the beginning of the last days, the vast majority of those who claimed to follow Christ were false Christians; Jesus likened them to “weeds.” Even so, Jehovah continued to anoint some faithful ones throughout that time, and they proved to be like the “wheat” Jesus described. (Matt. 13:24- 30) During the last days, Jehovah has continued to select those who will make up the 144,000.[2] If he chooses to wait until late into that period to select some for that privilege, who are we to question his wisdom? (Isa. 45:9; Dan. 4:35; read Romans 9:11, 16.)[3] We must be careful not to react like the disgruntled workers who complained about the way their master dealt with the 11th-hour workers.—Read Matthew 20:8-15.

12, 13. Why should we not worry about the number of those who eat the bread and drink the wine at the Memorial?

Well, after reading those significant sentences in article and this one again; "The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven." ................. it is not strange that some can ask himself, "What sort of anointed are leaders in GB for all JW members?" 

 

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On 8/20/2018 at 10:57 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Those called by Jehovah do not wonder whether they have been invited or not! They know! 

But…it really doesn’t matter if they know it or not, because the popular opinion taught by Wt’s leaders is…

The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven.

Which leads to doubting ANY who may partake.  They can’t be trusted.  Whether JWs realize it or not, this has successfully drawn them AWAY from the anointed priesthood, and TO the elder body who have the power to disfellowship God’s anointed people when they choose to reject Wt. lies.   The exception of course, is the GB whom they hear boldly declare their heavenly assured, sealed destination.   The ramifications are large – many anointed ones prefer to remain invisible for fear of elders scrutinizing them.  This also can account for many who stop partaking.  The snowball effect causes someone like me to dismiss my anointing for my entire 32+ years in the organization.  And I am not alone.  It is not unusual for elders to label an anointed one as having emotional problems, or as “mentally diseased”, even threatening them if they choose to partake.    And what are they called when they reject such oppression?

Well, apostates are “mentally diseased,” and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings. (

    Hello guest!
)  Wt 11/7/15

Disloyal to whom?  To the Father and Christ?  No, to the organization.  1 Tim 6:5 bears considering.

This study article is written by hypocrites and enforced by their muscle/elder body.  From what I know about hypocrisy, not only is it a characteristic of some mental diseases, it is a spiritual disease that can lead to death.  Matt 24:48-51

 

(Pearl Doxsey has an article entitled, “Who are the Mentally Diseased”?   4womaninthewilderness)

 

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On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

You said, What you should have also mentioned is that those chosen and or destined for Priesthood, the fruits after Jesus, are chosen, not self-chosen and it is known by those, as some would say, are invited by God.

Which is why I responded,  “I know this.  JWs know this”.

What I said was directed to what you made comment to before. It is no surprise to anyone of who those of the Priesthood who are chosen by God, of which took place from Pentecost to now, granted, that there are, as many have said, a few of them left.

I’ve mention this many times before, being quite brief, at best.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

I have never directed my attention to the earthly Jerusalem.  The Bride is the new creation of heavenly Jerusalem.  They are both human and “angel”.    1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:27;1 Cor 15:44; Heb 8:5; 1 Cor 3:16; Ezek 41:18,19    

Actually you have before, the only reason I brought it up, and you made mention to what Paul stated in Galatians 4 which speaks of the one bounded and the one who is free. The Holy City is no bounded, for it is free, in this case, she is free and has no bound or chain holding her down, for this Holy City is indeed a free.

Now your biggest error here is comparing humans to Spirit Beings such as Angels. Nowhere in the Bible does it say us of mankind will become both human and Angel, therefore, you are not only adding to the text, you clearly showing yourself to be very open to the ideology and Christology of New Age Christians, those who were of many who gave themselves up to the E.I.I. back in 2016 very, very easily.

Like I said, you mix verses and the error can be seen, yet again, therefore, I suggest you re-read those verses and perhaps make a better response.

The Bride makes up those of the Spiritual House, the chosen ones for Priesthood, and yes their will be given a new form and or body, Spiritual Bodies, we see nowhere in the Bible that these people are both humans and or angels, for we see that God made humans separate, and he has made the Angels separate.

Again, already known, this verse, 2 Corinthians 5:17 also connects with Galatians 6:15, which in itself, points straight to Ephsians 2:10 regarding the New Creation, for those who are one in Christ are part of what the Temple brings forth, the New Heavens and Earth, as all cross-references point to if read for context, hence why it is spoken of as Jesus being the Beginning and End (Into the New Covenant) in regards to the New Creation, at times in parallel to Melchizedek to some scholars.

And like I said no, humans are not like angels and or become human/angel hybrid of any form for they are TWO different creations, therefore it is silly to spout the talk of New Age nonsense, now for Humans, the Bible speaks of them taking a Spiritual Body, or as the Biblical Title and Outline states, A New Body.

1 Corinthians 3:16 would not make sense to use here because it speaks of us being of God’s Temple and like what was stated in Ephesians, God dwells in us just as he dwells in the Christ, nothing pertaining to being both human and angel hybrids.

Therefore, read the actual references for this verse for context before making such a response: Romans 6:16, 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, 17, 6:19, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Peter 2:5, Ephesians 2:21, 22, 1 Timothy 3:15 and Hebrews 3:6.

If anything at minimum, at least take the very words of Peter and follow the references through for context, furthermore, being in union with Christ and or anything pertaining to the Spiritual House, especially the people, those of Priesthood and those who will gain Eternal Life, as stated to you before, should be very obvious.

Ezekiel 41:18-19 makes no mention of a man becoming an angel and or any type of human/angel hybrids. Another factor here is the very cross-references of this verse (1 Kings 6:29, 7:36, 2 Chronicles 3:7), makes no connection and or match-up with what you have stated, at least be a Witness to what the Bible says rather than going about your own understanding or the ideologies of the New Aged Ones.

[18] It was carved of cherubim and palm trees, a palm tree between cherub and cherub. Every cherub had two faces: [19] a human face toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side. They were carved on the whole temple all around.

So it can be asked, what did you try to prove here by making mention of this verse? Unless you do not understand what these verses been and it's context? Anyone who is honest can read, research, identify and understand of what this very conveys, simply in an obvious connection to the Temple, as seen in Prophet Ezekiel's Vision: The Inner Temple, or as read in the outlines, The Interior of the Sanctuary.

1 Corinthians 15:44 speaks of Spiritual Bodies

[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Be it of the any spiritual means  or that of the earth, a person, be it, regardless of their sex, have a body, for all persons. Once again to become a whole person, one who has died being raised up, having a body, hence the verse in question. We are humans, not angels, and angels are not humans, nor can there be of and or spoken of any hybrids of any form for we are separate creations.

Going on to 2 Corinthians 5, well in short, does not make up with what you have said

Therefore, you have to be very careful with verses and passages, otherwise, like I said, you'll trip over yourself - for this isn't the first time you have done this.

I recommend Biblehub (

    Hello guest!
) if you are truly having issues with context and references.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly”  Heb 12:22

Ok. But it does not mask the confusion you have professed before regarding Heavenly Jerusalem and Earthly, only one is free, and only one has rejected the Christ.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

“Set your mindon things above, not on earthly things.”   Col 3:2      That should include the idea that women cannot be "leaders".  

And that is indeed what is being done here, taking in of what comes from above, not that of what originated with those of mainstream Christendom.

God's Purpose, Will, Grace, and Order, says otherwise, of which you and Sostar have yet to prove here. Mind you, this has been discussed for decades upon decades and what is said is even true, in fact, like I said, even women who understands their Bibles know this to be true, an example would be is how some women who confront people like Evangelist Anita Fuentes, how they respond, and this is but one of many, many examples.

Therefore, trying to change God's Order in terms of the Family and the Church cannot be changed, and granted that God, pertaining to Purpose, Will, Grace and Order, did come from above, mainly if you take into account of what the Head of the Church has told his own in Matthew 16 and what can be understood.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

The House of God IS HIS Temple, built on Christ.  It has everything to do with structure according to God’s will.  You are not making that link, but dare I tell YOU anything? ?

Yes, like I said, this is already known, and some of such of which you professed before, has been corrected, elsewhere.

And I am making the link, you have tried to mix in a belief that has never originated from God, you even make the assumption that what Apostle Paul had stated was mere opinion, when in reality it is not.

But what of God's Order? You never want to dwell in that, but yet when it is presented to you, both you and Sostar tend to do something entirely different?

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

1 Kings 8:27; Acts 7:47-51; Ps 127:1; John2:19-22; Matt  16:18; 1 Cor 3:10,11; Heb 11:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22; 4:4; 4:11-13; 1Cor 12:4,5,12-14,27-31    

    Hello guest!

Double Check your verses so you know they connect because it is rather bothersome to correct you when a mix is spot, example would be 1 Kings 8:27, of which something similar has spoken of in our last discussion, and the irony here is you posted Matthew 16:18, which is a direct connection to verses 19 in terms of what command is given to the followers of the Christ, which is clearly some ability the church practices even into this day, that is, those who accept, while others see it as too harsh and ends up changing it and or casting it aside, the very reason why Agnostics now have a sharped blade when it comes to going after and correcting people who do not know what a verse means.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

In general, Space Merchant, as knowledgeable as you are, you assume to know all that I believe. (I think I've said that before) You target many of my statements with misconceptions.  And as I see, you seem to keep a cork board pinned with every remark that grates against you (which I see you have done elsewhere here, to Srecko)

I merely correct the confused, the ignorant, the wrong and the like, and one thing that is very annoying to be is those who stick to the mainstream, those who stick to conspiracy, those who stick to false information, and those who attack the Bible and or the very manuscripts of which the Bible originates from, granted such ones tend to be oblivious to Biblical Translation, mainly the TRs and the 1245s, etc.

I already know your views, but are mixing in things that is not of what the Bible speaks, you compare verses that do not line up, you bring forth something that is borderline New Age and perhaps think someone would not catch that and so forth. There are things of which can be agreed on and disagreed on, but when it comes to the Bible and the Early Church, such things must be defended, especially that of the Holy Spirit of which many, many people confuse, as well as who Lord Jesus Christ is.

And yes, I tend to be very critical of Srecko because I told him before, for every response he makes, especially towards me, or anyone, expect a response, mainly if such is critical.

Srecko was corrected on Abraham, Barak and several other things, unless you yourself agree with Srecko that Abraham was a selfish man, or perhaps you agree with him on God not being surprised of people today changing their sex not by appearance, but physically also, mainly be drug and or surgical means, or maybe you think he is right on what he had said on money, that is, if you had seen that discussion?

Srecko to be, is someone who is hard deep in what he, as he puts it, his own opinions of things, even in the Bible and tends to draw forth confusion, an example would be what we see here regarding the Early Church, he even went as far as to call Chloe the Leader of the Church of Corinth, unless you are in agreement with that, of which remains to be seen.

The difference between you and him, at least you are trying to understand, hence why in other discussion some of which you said can be agreed on, however, you tend to mix things around, not sure if it is of your own design and or other, but you make the attempt, although, perhaps like mainly of Christendom today, but clearly here, you have shown yourself not to be fully understanding God's Order of things, and on the low trying to take a shot of what I am saying to be some form of negative view on women when I merely speak of the historical accounts, the Bible and so forth, furthermore, the very cultural of which I am under defeats the purpose of any such claim hence why I told you to prove it, furthermore, you yourself have mentioned before of what Paul said in a specific verse to be mere opinion, when such isn't the case, when it is known of whom he is speaking to by means of his writings, and what his focus was in trying to build up his brothers and sisters.

That being said, I speak what was true of Abraham and what God had Promised him when in discussion to Srecko Sostar, and I am sure you'd do the same because if it was not for the Seed, Jesus would have never been born in accordance to Prophecy in Bethlehem, and no Preiesthood, who are deemed the heirs, would have been existing, for in Srecko Sostar's eyes, he thinks God has another way, when we clearly see God make a Promise to Abraham in the Bible, a Promise of which lines up with Prophecy.

Perhaps take a good look at what he says when it comes to the Bible itself, or in this case, the church, for comparing Being One with Christ is vastly different in terms of Church Structure or the Family by means of how Yah's Order actually is, and Paul's direct reference to Creation itself - he did so for a reason.

Other than that, I told you before, I tend to get a bit strict on such things, and I am this lecturous due to a very blind and confused Trinitarian who is on this forum.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

I am here to expose the two threats to God’s anointed ones during the last days.  They are found where the anointed and their companions reside.  The Watchtower.  Can we agree to disagree?  I have my mind set on the heavenly fulfillment of things, not on the earthly. John 4:21-24

Believe me, if you knew what I knew, the real enemy is that of the E.I.I. everyone and anything in connection to it, anyone who has provided themselves, resources and finical based provisions to it for this beast to grow and spread throughout the US, Asia, EU, the whole world. Like I said, The Watchtower, consisting of Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist and have no dealings with the E.I.I. for if you haven't noticed, pretty much the E.I.I., who is the religion of Babylon the Great is against those who are not for their cause, they have already did a number on the Jehovah's Witnesses and others, even people like me, hence what they have done in both countries my family origins from, they hit even harder in the US because mainstream Christians tend to accept anything that the religion of Babylon throws out to them.

Therefore, we have to be very aware of who the real enemy is, we have to be vigilant, and enduring, and be very, very careful to consider someone an enemy because a minor mistake puts one in front of the White Throne, hence why Christians such as myself do not go after such ones, even Restrationist for you do not know what God will say to you when Judgement comes. Those who are good will receive their reward, those of Priesthood will be ruling alongside the Christ, those who have died not knowing God will have that chance and they will not be powerless on the earth, and rise up from the dead like Isaiah stated and Sing. As for the Bad, the those who reaps upon their falsehood and accursed ways, they will be judged, and any man who clearly is in the wrong, such ones will be judged in front of the White Throne of Judgement, and God will Jude by means of his Son and should be judged as guilty, you are no longer known and Justice will be executed, hence why being very careful is vital.

Other than that, those who know who the enemy is do not get swept away by such an enemy, even those who are neutral with JWs have enough sense to see who the enemy is, granted if you have been paying attention in the last 4 years of what was going about around the globe thus far, mainly what took place in 2016, which will happen again in The Fall of 2018.

That being said, if you are mixing verses and trying to make proof to something that has never been practiced by the early church, you make yourself a candidate, like Srecko, to be easily swept by this religion that is gaining converts in masses, for as Ted Turner of CNN, who supports this Conquest of Peace had said, We All Believe in One God, and his motive is all who have this believe is be united as one - This, my friend, it something you have to be a Witness of, and be very vigilant, for the legacy of the Spiritual Mother is alive and well in such ones, in this case, The Jezebel Woman who is also known as a Prophetess, the one who is false.

I tell everyone this, even to JWs, the only ones that do not see the danger are mainstreamers, Muslims on the other hand, wise up, some of which who began to understand and reads the Bible, and in my case, I direct people to learn the Bible, to many, men, women and children, just as I have learned at a young age, young ones should know the truth of the bible before the mainstream teaches them the accursed.

On 8/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, Witness said:

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”  Matt 7:24-27

John 4:21-24

If you truly believe in these verses, you be very aware that the whole church leadership thing is of God's Order. Srecko considers such favoritism, it is not the case, draw the conclusion from context and what Paul had said, which is not an opinion, but rather hat he stated directly in terms of Creation, hence God's Order.

Like the verse says, hear the words, but should you refuse, what makes you any different from mainstream Christendom, that of which contains the likes of New Aged Ones?

In regards to church leadership and the like (Union with Christ being used in such a discussion has been done many many times and it has failed), I suggest you start reading up on Church history, consider this bandages for cuts on your knees of which you have tripped on, for such can be accepted by you or rejected, just know that the Apostle is in the right in regards to God's Order of things.

Lastly, always double check your verses in terms of references and context, or as I put it, Hermeneutics, before you post them, for should you find yourself in a position to teach, you must do so correctly, it is jarring to the mind to make such corrections you as is done before, for if this was the CSE, I can't even defend you there and everyone there, like me, is x10 times.

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@Srecko Sostar Well then, Sostar, you can start with what you made mention to:

On 8/11/2018 at 3:36 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Chloe is woman, sister of the Corinth congregation, obviously in position of leading the church. And she has important contacts with Paul and with handling things in cong. 

For Chloe in where she is mentioned ONLY ONE acted out as a peacemaker, mainly that of her household, how can you say what you have said when the very verse and passage, in full context says otherwise?

 

And why is it you confuse Barak's position and Prophetess Deborah's position, granted Biblical Facts of which have been proven for years now says otherwise? 

I bring this up because it would seem you want another save - this will not be allowed to happen, again for it has been the case twice.

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