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Sam Herd Compares Shunning your own Children to Casting out Demons.

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This comes from the final talk at the Birmingham, AL Convention. Herd talks kind of low and there is some background noise, so here is a transcript starting at about 1:25.

You have a disfellowshipped grown child. Either a male or female, daughter or son. Disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home. They have their own place to live. How do you treat them? Do you treat them as disfellowshipped? That’s what the bible says you should do. Now of course thereÂ’s things you can do. Now I donÂ’t have to tell you what you can do, you know what you can do. But think about what you should do. ThatÂ’s the thing you want to be careful of. Well do we have any background on that? Yes. Once the demons were thrown out of JehovahÂ’s house, they were not permitted back in. That tell you something? Nope canÂ’t come back. CanÂ’t spoil the rest. “Not gonna let you do it,” Jehovah says. Out you go, out you stay.

I thought this was interesting because it doesn't appear to be in the talk outline. Admittedly, I just skimmed through the outline quickly, so it might be in there. Either way, there is something twisted about comparing the shunning of children to casting out demons from heaven.

Edit: For those wondering, this talk is from August 5. The part before when the transcript starts is Herd talking about King Asa removing his grandmother from her position.

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Strange how he doesn't quote a bible verse, he just states that the Bible "clearly says" you should shun your family members, your own children.

If the Bible clearly says you should do that, why can't you quote any scriptures? Because there are none. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything like that.

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5 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

something twisted about comparing the shunning of children to casting out demons from heaven.

There would be as demons are not children.

Bit difficult to understand such a distorted and short clip. But on the point, I dont think this could be referring to "children" literally as it seems unlikely that these would be "disfellowshipped"? More clarity needed on this matter.

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That’s funny because during the recent court case in Canada regarding shunning, that the org bragged about winning, their lawyers flat out lie with this line :

"As far as their family members are concerned, normal family relations continue with the exception of spiritual fellowship."

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Clip from the Supreme Court of Canada Case on November 2, 2017 involving the Jehovah's Witness Organization vs. Randy Wall. What this lawyer says is an utter lie. They do shun (even though they clearly don't want to admit it) and it does affect the family relationship in every way. Young people have been kicked out by their parents, spouses have divorced and siblings have cut off ALL contact not just "spiritual" contact. The entire coverage of this hearing can be seen here:

    Hello guest!

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6 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

But on the point, I dont think this could be referring to "children" literally as it seems unlikely that these would be "disfellowshipped"?

It's not a new point. A disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home should be shunned by the family except for absolutely necessary business that may need to be conducted with the child. This "child" is at least 18. The economy since 2008 has wreaked havoc with this rule, because so many more children in the 18-30 category are no longer able to get out on their own, and more disfellowshipped "children" in that age group claim it's economically necessary to remain at home.

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6 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

They do shun (even though they clearly don't want to admit it) and it does affect the family relationship in every way.

Must be your experience? Wow! You're all living in some sort of dimensional time warp;...........or I am.....I'm convinced of this. And it's not just you, it's a load of other posters on this forum.

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1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

This "child" is at least 18.

That's better. I was living on the street at 16 after experiencing "Catholic disfellowshiping" for not playing by the rules. I knew that wasn't right because I wasn't even a member!

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3 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

That's better. I was living on the street at 16 after experiencing "Catholic disfellowshiping" for not playing by the rules. I knew that wasn't right because I wasn't even a member!

Wow! I think you should find a Catholic discussion forum and bash that religion for a few years.

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10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Wow! I think you should find a Catholic discussion forum and bash that religion for a few years.

? Why waste energy??? There are legions at that already!!

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46 minutes ago, SuziQ1513 said:

I suspect the BoE is not exempt if they are not careful

I know of an elder who had an extramarital affair for 10 years, while serving as an elder. I wonder how he justified it, especially when sitting on judicial committees and disfellowshipping people for immorality. The mind boggles....

He is no longer an elder and has been disfellowshipped. Anything that is hidden will be revealed, sooner or later.

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

I wonder how he justified it, especially when sitting on judicial committees and disfellowshipping people for immorality. The mind boggles....

This is an excellent point. I often wonder about the same. I even wonder, for example, what goes through a Catholic priest's mind when he has an affair with a parishioner or what goes through the mind of the parishioner when (she or he) has an affair with a priest. So you can imagine my wonderment at the state of affairs in the congregation.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Anything that is hidden will be revealed, sooner or later.

It's a bit of comfort to know that our faith itself and our dependence on Bible training will sharpen our conscience and sense of morality. Undoubtedly these factors help bring the majority of such issues to light.

  • (Hebrews 4:12, 13) 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account.
  • (1 Timothy 5:24, 25) 24 The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men [their sins] also become manifest later. 25 In the same way also the fine works are publicly manifest and those that are otherwise cannot be kept hid.
  • (Ephesians 5:10-13) 10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], 12 for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. 13 Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light.

But why not all things in this life? Why 10 years? The following verse in 1 Cor 4:5 says that some "secret things of darkness" won't become revealed until "the Lord comes."

  • (1 Corinthians 4:5) 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
  • (1 Corinthians 3:13) 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is.
  • (Hebrews 4:12, 13) [especially v. 13 already quoted above.]

I have struggled with whether Ephesians 5:11 quoted above is saying that we each have a personal responsibility to reveal. I think it creates a divisive spirit in the congregations when everyone is ready to turn others in, yet it seems that sometimes it is up to us to "be reproving them" because the "things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light."

When the ARC was active, I discussed the potential fallout with a friend of mine still at Bethel and he told me that one of the dangers or fears was going to be whether or not the name or position of one of the perpetrators was going to be revealed. In one of the very cases used as an example this brother in New York said that the perpetrator was a well-known brother who had also been the Australian Branch Overseer for decades. The brother seemed to have no doubt of his guilt, although I personally would not know, but I still think that using this particular case in the process was purposefully intended to put a kind of fear and humility into the WTS there, because it showed who had the upper hand and who held the "moral high ground." But hearing this, and knowing how the brother who told me was deeply concerned that the truth not come out, I wondered the same thing. I thought maybe it should come out. (Per Ephesians 5:10-13)

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21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

it showed who had the upper hand and who held the "moral high ground."

Unfortunately, this stance is often a feature of hypocrisy. [cite any number of religio/political examples here].

However, I agree with the concept that humans, whoever they are, do not have the moral high ground ultimately. This belongs to Jehovah alone and I think this particular matter is an example of this.

We must not overlook the sobering fact that, at the present time, the words of Romans 13:3-4 still hold true regarding the secular authorities:

"For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

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On 8/11/2018 at 1:17 AM, JW Insider said:

It's not a new point. A disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home should be shunned by the family except for absolutely necessary business that may need to be conducted with the child.

WT magazine quote:

"The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue." source: 

    Hello guest!

WT and JW members having real problem that coming to be bigger and bigger with every day.

Training Video on JWorg Convention very clear highlighted important point/lesson for JW members, when mum not want to respond on dfd daughter phone call (this act has been presented (showed) as role model that is need to be imitate). Also, there is/are more examples in publications and in public talks in congregations to support what is going on.

So, it is question; What GB means when say -  "blood ties remain and normal family affections and dealings continue."???  

What is "normal family affection" in this ???? when mum not want pick up phone to her flesh and blood?????!!!!!

I am so hurt when see this hypocrisy (not because my family not want speak with me), but because i feel the pain that is inside those (ex) JW people rejected by their families and friends!! because of WT policy.  

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

blood ties remain and normal family affections and dealings continue."???  

Yes, this is a little misleading, because it only applies to members living in the same household.

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

Yes, this is a little misleading, because it only applies to members living in the same household.

With all due respect to you Anna, i must, not to You, but to WT who gave such instructions tell this; All that "models" who living where is so Stupid!! Do somebody living under same roof, under same roof but on second or fifth floor, in another house but in the same courtyard, in same courtyard but owner of both house is JW, or owner is dfd JW, in same  street or in same city, village, .........etc. I sound stupid to myself because making so many variables. Don't you think the same Anna? And WT doing exactly The Same Thing!!  

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is an excellent point. I often wonder about the same. I even wonder, for example, what goes through a Catholic priest's mind when he has an affair with a parishioner or what goes through the mind of the parishioner when (she or he) has an affair with a priest. So you can imagine my wonderment at the state of affairs in the congregation.

It's a bit of comfort to know that our faith itself and our dependence on Bible training will sharpen our conscience and sense of morality. Undoubtedly these factors help bring the majority of such issues to light.

  • (Hebrews 4:12, 13) 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account.
  • (1 Timothy 5:24, 25) 24 The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men [their sins] also become manifest later. 25 In the same way also the fine works are publicly manifest and those that are otherwise cannot be kept hid.
  • (Ephesians 5:10-13) 10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], 12 for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. 13 Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light.

But why not all things in this life? Why 10 years? The following verse in 1 Cor 4:5 says that some "secret things of darkness" won't become revealed until "the Lord comes."

  • (1 Corinthians 4:5) 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
  • (1 Corinthians 3:13) 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is.
  • (Hebrews 4:12, 13) [especially v. 13 already quoted above.]

I have struggled with whether Ephesians 5:11 quoted above is saying that we each have a personal responsibility to reveal. I think it creates a divisive spirit in the congregations when everyone is ready to turn others in, yet it seems that sometimes it is up to us to "be reproving them" because the "things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light."

When the ARC was active, I discussed the potential fallout with a friend of mine still at Bethel and he told me that one of the dangers or fears was going to be whether or not the name or position of one of the perpetrators was going to be revealed. In one of the very cases used as an example this brother in New York said that the perpetrator was a well-known brother who had also been the Australian Branch Overseer for decades. The brother seemed to have no doubt of his guilt, although I personally would not know, but I still think that using this particular case in the process was purposefully intended to put a kind of fear and humility into the WTS there, because it showed who had the upper hand and who held the "moral high ground." But hearing this, and knowing how the brother who told me was deeply concerned that the truth not come out, I wondered the same thing. I thought maybe it should come out. (Per Ephesians 5:10-13)

(Eph 5 v11)  So the scriptures tell us to 'make things known', but for anyone that does they get disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. And the GB has made its own 'rules' telling congregants not to report Child Abuse to the police or outside authorities. But if a member of a congregation reports child abuse to an elder nothing gets done about it, especially if the pedophile is and elder.... This has been proven in court rooms many times now..  Well as the scripture at Luke 8 v 17 says " For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest, nor anything carefully concealed that will never become known and not come out in the open".  Its good to see so much being revealed. Maybe the GB will answer for their crimes. 

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      t shows a little girl called Melody. She is ten years old, and was apparently baptised when she was 9. This means that Melody is now committed to the religion for life, and will be shunned if she ever leaves, or “unrepentantly” breaks any of its vast array of detailed rules.
      During the interview, Melody explains that she has a sister who was “disfellowshipped,” which is the Witness term for one who is excommunicated; someone who was thrown out of the faith rather than leaving of their own accord. We are not told the reason for the disfellowshipping, but one can be subjected to it for a wide range of reasons such as pre-marital sex, celebrating Christmas or birthdays, voting, taking a blood transfusion, joining the military, or simply questioning any of the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
      Melody states that her sister was trying to contact her, and asking her to stay in contact despite Watchtower decreeing that she be shunned. Remember, MelodyÂ’s sister has probably lost all her family and friends at this point; everyone she ever knew and loved.
      Melody admits that she misses and loves her sister, but states that she was afraid that if she didnÂ’t cut her sister off completely, she might be tempted to keep some form of relationship going. Thus, she has decided to shun her completely, as Watchtower demands. She claims that this was to protect her relationship with Jehovah.
      The audience of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses watching this announcement applaud.

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    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The Supreme Court of Canada Thursday heard arguments in a fight over a church’s “shunning” practice, and said it would release a ruling later, but the congregation involved and several other groups argued that the justices had no right to even take part in the fight.
      The fight is between Randy Wall, a real estate agent, and the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary.
      Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued a church appeals process, unsuccessfully, then went to court because he said the church’s “shunning,” that is, practice of not associating with him in any way, hurt his business.
      He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.”
      A lower court opinion explained, “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.”
      The “much distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said.
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      Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.”
      During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to say that congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system.
      The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining if, and when, such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party.
      The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction.
      A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that the Canada’s courts should not be involved.
      The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing, “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.”
      Previous case law has confirmed the ability of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member.
      But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question is one of property or civil rights.
      The Association for Reformed Political Action, described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.”
      Its position is that the court should keep hands off the argument.
      “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”
      John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said, “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”
      He continued, “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”
      The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the fight was about more than ecclesiastical rules.
      “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”
      The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”
      The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.
      “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
       
       
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