1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

[JW Insider]

Several posts from some recent topics have veered into a discussion of 1975 (yet again). My personal concern about the topic is that, like others have just mentioned, I have also been seeing a lack of honesty about it from both JWs and ex-JWs/non-JWs. We shouldn't be as concerned about what others on the outside say, but perhaps we need to take another look at the accuracy of statements that we make ourselves, in our own defense.

To start, I would say that I agree that no Watchtower article or Watchtower publication ever said that the world was going to end in 1975.

But when we try to convince people today about what was really said back then, what is our purpose in only selectively choosing things that were said and printed in Watchtower publications? Is it possible to be dishonest by what we omit when we defend this topic?

*GA: The upvote is an artefact of this post when it was under another topic. You may wish to remove it from this topic.

[Space Merchant]

I'd like to confirm an update. I spoke with one JW, an African American who became one of Jehovah's Witnesses back in 1973, I knew he was JW because of the little pin on his book-bag at a Super Walmart (A day I had the most awkward question being asked of me in a restaurant). After ths discussion, he was talking about all biological stuff, of which I didn't have time for for it didn't peek my interest.

This man stated during 1975 he was speaking about what was posed earlier, the 6,000 years of human existence and or creation since Adam. He also stated that around 1975 some JWs assumed that the end was actually coming, the result of some JWs spreading things that was never actually said, some JWs ended up buying homes and cars, for some odd reason while the other half, who took into account what was said knew that Judgement Day was near but it was not in 1975 nor was it ever said to be, mind you, the JW said they were still preaching and have not ceased such. He went on to say that because the ones who didn't hear correctly, end up leaving the faith for their own error, when several, if not many, mentioned exactly what took place in 1975, hence the previous comment.

Therefore, I do not see why some people make claim that JWs said the end would come in 1975 when nothing of the sort was ever mentioned, the irony is now that this information is public, no matter how hard opponents of the faith try to flag, get people's information and videos removed from the internet so this remains hidden.

Moreover, as for the Restaurant thing, this is off-topic. A random Hippie guy said to me that he appreciates my people and said that Aretha Franklin, and I was dumbfounded and confused, then I realized, I was the only person, that one guy, sitting in an all Korean restaurant. Although I do not take offense, that was a bit odd and weird, to some, they would scream racism for being singled out, but I care not because all I cared about was waiting for my order so I can go home. I like classic music very much, but I do not idolize any singers, even Ms. Franklin, hence what going on int hat funeral.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Anna:

Oh yeah ... I had forgotten about THOSE crazy years ... because I never believed any of that .... but I did get caught, BIG TIME, in the "1975" fiasco, even though during the run-up to 1975 I openly ridiculed it ... right there at the end, I reasoned, in the fall of 1974

"How could I be right, and everybody else ... people I respected, loved  and cared about .... everybody ... be WRONG? ( About the end coming in 1975)."

It did not seem probable to me that EVERYBODY (In the Truth) was wrong so I quit the best job I ever had, in Zaire, the Congo, to be back home with my Mom and Dad in Virginia, when "the END came".

To this day, Brothers and Sisters "swear" that never happened .....  but in the  Watchtower, March 15, 1980 issue , paragraphs 17 and 18 ONE TIME admitted that they did say that ... in the book "Life Everlasting - In Freedom of the Sons of God".

I did not find out about that "soft admission of culpability" until Mr. Google and I became good friends, many, many years later ... but long before that I learned to trust my own instincts over that of anything the Society said or published.

If they are wrong, only we down here at the bottom have to pay the price for their error.

If they permanently screw up our lives ... they pay no price whatsoever.

[Anna]

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

it did not seem probable to me that EVERYBODY (In the Truth) was wrong so I quit the best job I ever had, in Zaire, the Congo, to be back home with my Mom and Dad in Virginia, when "the END came".

To this day, Brothers and Sisters "swear" that never happened ..

I believe you. I personally know a few who did similar things. There is no doubt about it that 1975 got blown up out of all proportions. That is why those who knew their Bible, and put that as precedent over what anybody else said (including the president of the society at the time) call it trusting your own instincts if you like, didn't get burned. But I understand that it must have been very difficult if the majority saw it differently than you. Moral of the story? Trust the Bible and no man. Lesson learned. We've got to move on.

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

....... they pay no price whatsoever.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Space Merchant]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. According to facts the whole 1975 thing (well as to what I have made note of as of late) was of man's existence since Adam and people being told to be vigilant for anything can happen. Not once did anyone say the world is coming to an end, in the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, it would make them seem foolish to say such, granted the preaching of the gospel has never ceased prior to, during 1975 at all, and there are several who say this, while the majority is being flagged by former members of the faith. Another factor is there are those who are aware of some JWs, who had since left the faith, took it upon themselves to commit their own actions, assuming the end of the world would come, which is foolish on their part for they heard very clearly.

Because one would have to be very honest with themselves, if the Bible tells you that the preaching of the gospel is to be done, preached to all the nations. In their Christology it is said there will be a time when they would totally cease preaching 100%, and we have not seen any of them happening now, in 1975 or in the past. Granted the gospel has to be preached first and according to them God will soon decide when to cease the gospel preaching, technically being a sign of the work being done, and you wouldn't see a JW in sight, as someone would say, JWs would just vanish without a trace.

If anything, some Jehovah's Witnesses may be bad hearers, or forgetful hearers assume otherwise, JW group B being in the wrong, while JW group A, who heard everything were in the right.

About the book, this is hat Old Man Eli had to say: The book Life Everlasting - In Freedom of the Sons of God, released at a series of district conventions held in 1966, pointed to 1975. Right at the convention, as the brothers examined the contents, the new book triggered much discussion about 1975." - Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom; pg. 104, Declaring the Good News Without Letup (1942-1975)

The book in question mentioned 1975 3 times (I could be wrong, replied on PDF source to see if they match up accordingly)

• [1] According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E.
• [2] cited (1975, 6,000 years from man's creation end. 29)
• Other quotes (not in book/or whatever) : “In the years following 1966, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses acted in harmony with the spirit of that counsel [the main point about not being specific about what might happen]. However, other statements were published on this subject, and some were likely more definite than advisable. This was acknowledged in The Watchtower of March 15, 1980 (page 17). But Jehovah’s Witnesses were also cautioned to concentrate mainly on doing Jehovah’s will and not to be swept up by dates and expectations of an early salvation.” (page 104) | "There were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year (1975) was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated." - Watchtower, 1980 March 15, p.17, par. 5

For the claim made by opponents "The Watchtower strongly implied the end would come in 1975." is as false as their other claim that JWs own parts of companies in electronics, lingerie and weapons, of which the same people claim the churches of JWs having weapon bunkers below. Also remnants of that strong video proof still linger about on the internet, thus further making such opponents in greater error, but what to expect from those [some among them] who would attempt to use the current President (The Orange-Haired One) to take down a single faith group?

I too believe the end will come, but no one knows for certain, for the bile says no one knows the day or the hour, not even the sons of the Most High, that being the angels, not even the only-begotten Son, Jesus knows, only God the Father knows (Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7). In the same sense, it is like a teenager throwing a party while his or her parents are out of the house, but little does he/she knows that the time the parents will return home is unknown, not the best example, but it seems to fit the bill here.

That being said, although the end is indeed near, one should not be roaming about, caught with his pants down as they say when it does happen, by that time it would be too late, mainly when you, prior to the day see less and less preachers out there, be it true or false. It is one thing to be in agreement/disagreement with a faith........ Unless they are mainstream Trinitarian folk..... But one must know what is fact and what is not fact, but on occasion some of us tend to jump to conclusions, even though we, are the same ones who put forth actual fact previously - happens to me sometimes.

As far as I know, even to this day, you still see Jehovah's Witnesses everywhere, in the streets, at the houses, in the parks/schools, perhaps even in the bushes and trees as well, trying to evangelize people and speak of the gospel and a day will come when such places you would not see them at all, and eventually those who are adhering to the message, they too will be gone also, others may be in silence because they know what time it is.

[JW Insider]

In my own experience, I was born in '57, baptized 10 years later, and had to read the "Life Everlasting" book as one of the two books assigned for baptismal candidates, along with the "Lamp" book questions. I auxiliary pioneered for several months in 1972, and quit school to regular pioneer for 3.5 years from 1973 until leaving for Brooklyn Bethel, where I worked full-time for 4 years, and then part-time, on projects, for another two while going to college in NYC.

I give this portion of my "resume" only because I can speak to the experience of being baptized prior to 1975, and was part of the Bethel build-up from the influx of workers and financial contributions that Bethel received around 1975. I pioneered for several years both before and after 1975.

Your experience may vary, but I can still tell you pretty much what I was thinking just prior to 1975, because I had to clear my plans with my parents, my school, and two circuit overseers, since I quit school while I was still 15 to begin regular pioneering in 1973.

[Anna]

I would say it was an unfortunate collection of events, that altogether gave the impression that the society was promoting 1975 as the date for Armageddon. There is no doubt that it was insinuated by some prominent speakers at conventions (in America mainly?) and also those who were "living out their last days of this system selling their houses so they could pioneer" were publicly praised, ( also in the KM). It is no different now, those who give their all in full time service are also praised today, however, those who did this a few years before 1975 was no coincidence, and I believe the praise was worded in such a way that it was no coincidence either. There was so much insinuation that went unchecked, that it was no wonder 1975 became a fact, instead of what it was said to be, a maybe. It didn't help that one of the prominent brothers said in reply to "is Armageddon coming in 1975?": "we're not saying, we're not saying" which sounds like: "well yes of course it is, but I don't want to sound presumptuous". And who could help but not get excited by that famous Charles Sinutko talk where the phrase "stay alive till 75" was coined.

All in all I think it has been a good lesson for most: know your Bible, and make sure of all things. And if your (Bible trained) instincts tell you something isn't quite right, then it probably isn't. 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

And who could help but not get excited by that famous Charles Sinutko talk where the phrase "stay alive till 75" was coined.

Whatever happened to old Charlie, anyway? Did he ever get off KP duty?

[Evacuated]

On 9/3/2018 at 3:17 PM, JW Insider said:

Is it possible to be dishonest by what we omit when we defend this topic?

Don't mind the upvote.

I was very keen for the end to come in 1975 after learning the truth in 1971. My first shepherding call was from a brother who explained at length why he had cancelled all his insurances.

But this view only lasted for a few months because, (as I've previously stated), I was put wise by a very influential and respected brother who said he was not part of the 1975 club, as no man could possibly know the day or hour. Because this individual had made quite an impression on me in many other spiritual matters, I felt his reasoning to be pretty sound at the time, because I could never get my head around the date oriented mentality. It always made me feel uneasy, like something that you thought you ought to believe because of the sparkly eyed assertions,  but that just didn't have any substance. Now of course, I know better.

But there was no shortage of those who wanted to believe it although the platform promotion was consderably less intense where I was than in the USA. I can understand the "once bitten, twice shy" view of some skeptical ones today. And it's the same with the nodding, knowing heads today. They still make me feel uneasy. I just find the whole topic embarrassing. The best advice I ever got on this whole area was something an old missionary brother used he say to me in his heavy Scottish  accent "Your Armageddon came the day you dedicated your life to Jehovah, laddie. You can't take it back you know." or something like that.

Scripturally, 2Tim.4:2 seems most relevant here regardless of which area of the ministry it applies to: "preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season" and also Gal.6:10: "Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all,"

[Anna]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Whatever happened to old Charlie, anyway? Did he ever get off KP duty?

Actually I think he's doing really well, if he's still alive. Look him up in JW library, or probably the cd.

[JW Insider]

22 hours ago, Anna said:

There was so much insinuation that went unchecked, that it was no wonder 1975 became a fact, instead of what it was said to be, a maybe.

Russell himself said he was ashamed of Second Adventism with all its false predictions. He was embarrassed by the Adventists yet he took little else from them besides their chronology. From the start, he was drawn to their chronology system. He often claimed that he was not so interested in the chronology but focused on Christian character instead, yet he made belief in the updated Second Adventist chronology the single criteria that separated the Foolish Virgins from the Wise Virgins.

Here's an example of the kind of dishonesty I refer to that always seems to accompany the topic of chronology in every religion that focuses on it. It goes all the way back to the first few months of Watch Tower publications:

Here are some statements from the January 1881 Watch Tower magazine:

• This is a question doubtless that many ask themselves, viz: "How soon will our change come?" This change many of us have looked forward to for years, and we yet with much pleasure, think of the time when we shall be gathered unto Jesus and see Him as he is. In the article concerning our change, in December paper, we expressed the opinion that it was nearer than many supposed, and while we would not attempt to prove our change at any particular time, yet we propose looking at some of the evidences which seem to show the translation or change from the natural to the spiritual condition, due this side or by the fall of our year 1881. The evidence that our change will be by that time, increases since we have seen that the change to spiritual bodies is not the marriage. While we thought the marriage to be the change, and knowing there was three and a half years of special favor to the Nominal Church (now left desolate) from 1878, we could not expect any translation this side of 1881, or during this three and a half years. But since we recognize that going into the marriage is not only being made ready (by recognizing His presence) for the change, but also, that going in includes the change itself, then the evidences that we go in (or will be changed) inside of the time mentioned are strong, and commend themselves to all interested as worthy of investigation. Aside from any direct proof that our change is near, the fact that the manner of the change can now be understood, is evidence that we are near the time of the change, for truth is "meat in due season," and understood only as due. It will be remembered that after the spring of 1878, (when we understand Jesus was due as King) that the subject of holiness or the wedding garment, was very much agitated. And aside from the parallel to the end of the Jewish age, and favor at that time being shown to the Jewish nation, which implied the presence of the King, the consideration of the wedding garment, was also proof of the correctness of the application, for "the King had come in to see the guests," [Matt. 22:11] and hence all were interested in knowing how they stood before Him. Now as the inspection of guests is the last thing prior to our change, which precedes the marriage and we are all now considering the change. It would seem that the time for it, is nigh.
• We shall now present what we adduce from the types and prophetic points as seeming to indicate the translation of the saints and closing of the door to the high calling by 1881. . . . [skipping a large portion on these evidences, some of which were considered "proofs" of 1874 that evidenced the correctness of 1881.] If this be a correct application (and it seems harmonious) and the time of building is seven years, then we would expect our change by or before the fall of 1881, as from 1874 to then would be the time given for building. . . .  by coming into a knowledge of the Bridegroom's presence, etc., during the seven years harvest [from 1874 to 1881] . . . and as the seven years are about complete, that we will soon follow by being changed. Matt. 25 and the parallelism of the Jewish and Gospel ages, seem to teach that the wise of the virgins "who are alive and remain" must all come in, to a knowledge of the bridegroom's presence, by the fall of 1881, when the door—opportunity to become a member of the bride—will close.
• . . . We suggest as quite possible, that the change may come to some prepared before that time.
• . . .  "Yet seven days [years] and I will cause it to rain upon the earth," should be significant, because we have expected trouble, in a special sense, about 1881, and, according to the type, we must enter in by that time. . . . We used to think it would be in the midst of a great trouble that we would be changed, but now we do not. . . .  If the three years mentioned in connection with Aaron has any bearing, then it would teach our change as coming this side of 1881, as three years from 1878 would bring us inside of that time. . . .  We now have taken prophetic measurements and allegories together, [R182 : page 5] five different points seeming to teach the resurrection of the dead in Christ and change of the living between the fall of 1874 and 1881. Two or more witnesses are enough to prove any case, as a rule, and certainly God has given us abundant evidence. We are also glad to notice that all these things only corroborate previous truths, thus proving to a certainty each application as correct and causing the old jewels to shine brighter. The five lines of argument briefly stated are these:
• 1st. The days of Daniel ending in 1874, at which time the resurrection commenced, and since which, the dead have been going in to the marriage.
• 2d. The end of the seven years from that time, as marked by the parallel, of the end of the "seventy weeks" in the Jewish age ending in our year 1881, at which time we all should be in and the door closed, being the end of time of special favor to the nominal church before commencement of trouble which follows our change.

[skipping more, etc. etc. etc.]

There are some cautionary statements built into the article, and statements that this is not proof, just evidence. But note what is done with the evidence. Intelligently-minded people know what this evidence means. And spiritually-minded people know that the faithful and wise servant is providing "food at the proper time" [meat in due season] and that this is the proper time for wise virgins to distinguish themselves from foolish virgins. Also, all this evidence is only evidence on its own, but as it adds up, it becomes "proof" to those who appreciate that God is giving us this evidence in abundance, and that even two of these five lines of evidence should therefore constitute enough to "prove any case" as a rule.

Here are some statements from the May 1881 Watch Tower magazine, p.224, on the same topic, now that the time for hesitation was due:

• The WATCH TOWER never claimed that the body of Christ will be changed to spiritual beings during this year. There is such a change due sometime. We have not attempted to say when, but have repeatedly said that it could not take place before the fall of 1881.

This was a true statement. The Watch Tower had not claimed that the body of Christ will be changed in 1881, only that the evidence about 1881 should be seen as proof by intelligent and spiritually minded persons who have a true faith and appreciation for God's truths. From this point forward, after failure was obvious, it would be easy to cherry-pick quotes that showed that no one had specifically said it would happen by the fall of 1881  -- even though it was supposed to obvious that for some it would likely happen even before the fall of 1881. But even this is just technicalities and semantics. It's true that they hadn't said it would definitely happen.

Still, there is dishonesty in the attempt to sweep all the embarrassment away. It's in the phrase: "We have not attempted to say when . . ." Is this a true statement? Was there really no attempt to say when the change would take place? That previous article on the topic of when, in January 1881 --only four months earlier--  might as well have been called "When Will the Change Take Place?" It was nothing if not an attempt to say when!

The claim might be technically true. But is it honest?

 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's in the phrase: "We have not attempted to say when . . ." Is this a true statement? Was there really no attempt to say when the change would take place? That previous article on the topic of when, in January 1881 --only four months earlier--  might as well have been called "When Will the Change Take Place?" It was nothing if not an attempt to say when!

Of course there was an attempt to say when, quite clearly .  It must be rather a predicament for those who make claims, or "attempts", that are forever immortalized in print! I believe Russell was being honest at the time of his attempts, and truly believed what he was saying, otherwise he would have not published it. The fact that he tried to get around it the way he did after his words failed highlights typical human weakness. True, one should expect better from someone who claims to be a messenger, and faithful and wise servant of God, but it wouldn't be the first time human failings manifested themselves in those of whom we would least expect it. That is exactly why, and I know you are on the same page with me on this, we should be cautious about claims and "attempts" made by anyone, even, (or should  I say especially?) those at the top.  I know, many would disagree and pretty much believe what the Slave says, to the letter. There is another website, run by Witnesses, that is strongly monitored for any negativity against the slave.  The other day in FS a sister who I admire and who has her head screwed on right, made a surprising comment. She said that if the Slave told her to do anything she would do it. I am assuming she didn't mean jump off a bridge, because she is not that kind of a person, and has her own views on a few things. So I am assuming she meant "within reason" . But anyone hearing her, who doesn't really know her, could have got the wrong impression.

It is a big dilemma to say the least when we know the Slave has erred in the past and can err in the future (by their own admission) and yet we are still supposed to be obedient to it (now, and in the future when we receive "lifesaving instructions that may not make sense from a human stand point"). I was discussing this with my step dad (elder) and he admitted it was a difficult situation. He said we just have to trust Jehovah. Also, and I've mentioned this on another occasion, we will obey God as ruler rather than man, which means when obedience to man would result in disobedience to God, then we don't go there. This applies to any man. Br. Jackson insinuated this also in his ARC hearing.