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1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

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4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The reason 1975 became a fiasco aside from the obvious indicators ex-witnesses bring, there were other prophesiers to claim the “end of the world” would be in 1975. Herbert W. Armstrong, and Charles R. Taylor that I can recall.

 

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I had several friends ask me who Herbert Armstrong was, and why was he stating the world would end in 1975, when I was telling my friends about the end of an era, the 6000 years of human existence.

Here, after this two quotes you bring, i have to ask: Did rank and file JW members of those period have read also Non-WT publications about 1975? When you say: "I had several friends ask me...", well, you mean on your JW friends or Non-JW friends?  Also, Betel Bible scholars have custom to read "worldly" publications on various topics, and it would be no surprise how some of influence and ideas were copied or/and modified  and presented as "Bible Light" to JW's.

Apostates and ex-witnesses (generally is the same group to WT Society), according to your presentation, are in fact JW members from 1975 period who became "apostates and ex-witnesses" because they are reading works of Non-JW authors of books???? :))))  

 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, the Works of the Watchtower are considerably different in its outcome with its message to distinguish itself from others.

Yes, WT dfd many who was confused and questioned religious doctrines and ideas about 1975. THAT IS considerably different from others. :))

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[I'm separating this post from the one it was combined with above:]

Back in 1956, when Armstrong's "1975 in Prophecy!" magazine was written, the Watchtower was still teaching that 1976 was the end of the 6,000 years. Note the words highlighted in blue and red in the following three Watchtower articles, especially the part about how long it took Adam to name the animals.

The first link is to the Feb 1, 1955 Watchtower "Questions From Readers" on jw.org.  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1955089

According to Genesis 1:24-31 Adam was created during the last part of the sixth creative-day period of 7,000 years. Almost all independent chronologists assume incorrectly that, as soon as Adam was created, then began Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period of the creative week. Such then figure that from Adam’s creation, now thought to be the fall of 4025 B.C., why, six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began.

Why, it must have taken Adam quite some time to name all the animals, as he was commissioned to do. . . .

The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date.

When the 1955 article was updated in 1968, 13 years later, note how the line about the accuracy of the chronology remains the same (almost verbatim in blue) but the line about the animals (in red) has changed: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1968602#h=59

Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? . . .

This time between Adam’s creation and the beginning of the seventh day, the day of rest, let it be noted, need not have been a long time. It could have been a rather short one. The naming of the animals by Adam, and his discovery that there was no complement for himself, required no great length of time. The animals were in subjection to Adam; they were peaceful; they came under God’s leading; they were not needing to be chased down and caught. It took Noah only seven days to get the same kinds of animals, male and female, into the Ark. (Gen. 7:1-4) Eve’s creation was quickly accomplished, ‘while Adam was sleeping.’ (Gen. 2:21) So the lapse of time between Adam’s creation and the end of the sixth creative day, though unknown, was a comparatively short period of time.

By October 1, 1975, the Watchtower changed back to the 1956 style statements about Adam and how long it might have taken to name the animals: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1975720

During that time, God had Adam name the animals. Whether that period amounted to weeks or months or years, we do not know. So we do not know exactly when Jehovah’s great “rest day” began, nor do we know exactly when it will end. The same applies to the beginning of Christ’s millennial reign. The Bible provides us no way to fix the date, and so it does us no good to speculate when that date may be.—Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 24:42, 44.

However, the Bible’s time clock does indicate to us that 6,000 years of human history end in this year 1975. Early in God’s “rest day” Adam became a rebel against God-rule. Thus, for the most part, the first 6,000 years of man’s history have been marked by man-rule.

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2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, Srecko does it really take an active witness to read other peoples works or can it be other people read those works and combined it with the Watchtower to have asked a witness about it, or think it was the Watchtower that published it to have accepted it by mistake.

.... or can it be other people read those works and combined it with the Watchtower to have asked a witness about it, ....

Do you suggest by this how non-JW people are so interested to know what JW's have to say about some subject on world events - in particular, about 1975 - ? I think that you can count on fingers of one hand, it is so small number of non-JW who would, who was talking about 1975 in religious manner, in that period of time when WT Society publication put effort to emphasized 1975 as very important year to humankind in connection to Bible prophesies about Last days, Armageddon, Salvation, Kingdom. 

I think that 1975 has been of Important interest, in JW Unique Way of Bible Doctrines, only to JW members inside JW Organization. Because they have read about 1975 in own publications, of course, and not in Washington Post or in National Geographic, for example.

 But, because we been presented here how also other non-JW people were speaking about 1975, from their standpoints, it is possible to conclude how JW's has been trustful only to WT Society Spiritual Leaders and not to some other religious or secular sources. By that what we know how JW members are warned to be very careful about any other sources of information, it can be say how JW's in period before 1975 have been very obedient and listen only that what WT Society said about 1975. 

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@BillyTheKid46, I thought you mostly just employed @Foreigner for vote spamming. I see you are doing some of the dirty work under your own name. And I also see you are nowhere near done yet, because you have added several more just since I copied the two images below.

What's odd, however is that "both" of you have now voted down posts that contained nothing more than scriptures quoted from the NWT, and just above in this same topic, only 4 posts back, you (and Foreigner, of course) downvoted a post that does no more than introduce 3 Watchtower quotes about how long it took Adam to name the animals with surrounding context. Are you really that embarrassed by quotes from the Watchtower that you found it necessary to give two down votes to these Watchtower quotes????

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21 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You and your apostate friends get a life outside the Watchtower. You people disgrace the Watchtower and God. Your disgusting human beings pretending to be Christians. That's the lowest a human can go.

Your diversionary attack on me does not explain why you indicated above that you are ashamed of the quotes from the Watchtower. I put the quotes there because it's so clear how we can learn from these, how they can apply today, and why it's so important to be honest about our past assumptions and conjecture.

By merely indicating your shame and embarrassment about the Watchtower, you do nothing to show how we can learn from it. If we are merely ashamed, we will be more likely to hide the things we are embarrassed about, or try to claim that they should not be brought up. As you admitted earlier this is a kind of dishonesty when we fail to present key points.

Oh, look, here's some more vote spamming that I missed, just in this topic alone, just in the last few minutes, and just on MY posts here:

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That doesn't even include a few other examples of vote spamming. Like this one from just a couple minutes ago, when I agreed with @Space Merchant here about how the JWs will soon hit the 9 million mark in peak and average publishers.

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I don't think it's just your shame and embarrassment about things the Watchtower has said. Surely you are not fighting against increased numbers, too. I really can't tell what you have against my statement to @Space Merchant above. If you are not too busy with your ongoing vote spamming campaigns, perhaps you could take some time out of your busy life to explain.

 

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24 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Your diversionary attack on me does not explain why you indicated above that you are ashamed of the quotes from the Watchtower. I put the quotes there because it's so clear how we can learn from these, how they can apply today, and why it's so important to be honest about our past assumptions and conjecture.

By merely indicating your shame and embarrassment about the Watchtower, you do nothing to show how we can learn from it. If we are merely ashamed, we will be more likely to hide the things we are embarrassed about, or try to claim that they should not be brought up. As you admitted earlier this is a kind of dishonesty when we fail to present key points.

Oh, look, here's some more vote spamming that I missed, just in this topic alone, just in the last few minutes, and just on MY posts here:

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That doesn't even include a few other examples of vote spamming. Like this one from just a couple minutes ago, when I agreed with @Space Merchant here about how the JWs will soon hit the 9 million mark in peak and average publishers.

image.png

I don't think it's just your shame and embarrassment about things the Watchtower has said. Surely you are not fighting against increased numbers, too. I really can't tell what you have against my statement to @Space Merchant above. If you are not too busy with your ongoing vote spamming campaigns, perhaps you could take some time out of your busy life to explain.

 

@JW Insider After quite some time reading this person's post, I cannot but feel that the proverb applies perfectly to this situation

 

(Proverbs 9:8) . . .Do not reprove a ridiculer, or he will hate you. Reprove a wise person, and he will love you. . . 

 This person (I think it is obvious to everyone who is) insults and disparages those who disagree with his thinking. Sadly, he thinks he defends Jehovah's Witnesses, but his unbalanced way of thinking is most confusing and pathetic. 

JWI, many appreciate your comments, but I would dare to advise you that, following the Proverb mentioned above, respond to this person in the most effective way: silence 

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Mais pendant la grande tribulation, nous prêcherons certainement un message percutant comparable à d’énormes grêlons (Rév. 16:21). Nous proclamerons peut-être la destruction très prochaine du monde de Satan. Le moment venu, nous saurons exactement quel message proclamer et comment le faire. Utiliserons-nous les mêmes méthodes que celles que nous utilisons depuis plus de 100 ans pour accomplir notre ministère ? Ou en utiliserons-nous d’autres ? Nous verrons bien. En tout cas, il semble que nous aurons l’honneur de proclamer courageusement le message de jugement de Jéhovah Notre message poussera très probablement les nations à essayer de mettre définitivement fin à notre prédication. Tout comme nous avons besoin du soutien de Jéhovah quand nous prêchons aujourd’hui, nous aurons besoin de compter sur lui à ce moment-là. Nous pouvons être sûrs que notre Dieu nous ‘remplira de force’ pour que nous puissions faire sa volonté  - TG2019/10  §8,9 Qu’est-ce que la lecture biblique de cette semaine t’a appris sur Jéhovah ? La Bible parle d’un ange qui dit aux habitants de toute la terre d’adorer Dieu (Révélation 14:6, 7). Comment fait-il ? Est-ce qu’il crie du haut du ciel pour être entendu par tout le monde ? — Non. Ce sont les disciples de Jésus sur la terre qui parlent de Dieu autour d’eux, et les anges les aident dans cette tâche. Ils veillent à ce que tous les humains qui veulent vraiment connaître Dieu aient l’occasion d’entendre parler de lui. Nous aussi, nous pouvons participer à cette prédication et recevoir l’aide des anges. – Enseignant p65 ‘ Une bonne nouvelle éternelle à annoncer ’ et qu’il dit d’une voix forte : “ Craignez Dieu et rendez-lui gloire, parce que l’heure de son jugement est venue. ” (Révélation 14:6, 7). Cette “ heure ” de jugement est une période courte qui englobe à la fois le moment où les jugements divins décrits dans la prophétie sont prononcés et celui où ils sont exécutés. Nous vivons actuellement cette période. Aujourd’hui, avant que l’heure du jugement ne s’achève, l’exhortation retentit : “ Craignez Dieu et rendez-lui gloire. ” Qu’implique-t-elle ? Craindre Dieu comme il convient, c’est se détourner du mal – TG2005  1/5 p23 Révélation 15:3 dit : « Grandes et prodigieuses sont tes œuvres, Jéhovah Dieu, le Tout-Puissant. Justes et vraies sont tes manières d’agir, Roi d’éternité. » Que veut dire le titre « Tout-Puissant » ? Que Jéhovah est la personne la plus puissante de l’univers. Et que veut dire le titre « Roi d’éternité » ? Qu’il est éternel, c’est-à-dire qu’il a toujours existé – Enseigne p13 La Bible dit de Jéhovah : “ Toi seul tu es fidèle. ” (Révélation 15:4). Comment est-ce possible ? Des humains et des anges n’ont-ils pas, eux aussi, manifesté une fidélité remarquable. Et Jésus Christ ? N’est-il pas le “ fidèle ” de Dieu ? Alors pourquoi affirmer que Jéhovah seul est fidèle ? C’est d’abord parce que la fidélité relève de l’amour. Puisque “ Dieu est amour ”, qu’il en est la personnification, qui donc pourrait manifester la fidélité plus complètement que lui. Les anges et les humains ont bien la faculté de refléter ses attributs, mais lui seul est fidèle au sens absolu. Et puis, étant “ l’Ancien des jours ”, il exerce la bonté de cœur depuis plus longtemps que n’importe laquelle de ses créatures, céleste ou terrestre. Jéhovah est donc le modèle suprême de fidélité ; aucune de ses créatures ne soutient la comparaison. - Approchez-vous de Jéhovah  p282 §7,8 Que se passera-t-il après la destruction des fausses religions ? Ce sera le moment de révéler ce que nous avons vraiment dans le cœur. Il ne faut pas s’attendre à ce que l’interruption, le répit, qui se produira durant la grande tribulation donne lieu à un afflux de nouveaux croyants. Par contre, elle offrira à tous les vrais croyants la possibilité de prouver leur amour pour Jéhovah et de soutenir les frères du Christ. Bien que nous ne connaissions pas dans le détail tout ce qui se produira durant cette période d’épreuve, attendons-nous à devoir faire des sacrifices. Pour rester en vie, les chrétiens du Ier siècle ont dû abandonner leurs biens et endurer des privations. Serons-nous disposés à subir des pertes matérielles pour rester fidèles ? Serons-nous prêts à faire tout ce qu’il faudra pour prouver notre fidélité à Jéhovah ? Songe un peu : Comme le prophète Daniel en son temps, nous serons les seuls, en ces jours-là, à continuer d’adorer Dieu, coûte que coûte. Ce ne sera pas le moment de prêcher la « bonne nouvelle du royaume ». Ce temps-là sera révolu. L’époque de « la fin » sera arrivée. Les serviteurs de Dieu proclameront sans aucun doute un message de jugement percutant. Celui-ci pourrait bien comporter une déclaration annonçant que la fin complète du monde de Satan est imminente. La Bible compare ce message à une grêle. On lit : « Une grande grêle, dont chaque grêlon pesait environ un talent, est descendue du ciel sur les hommes, et les hommes ont blasphémé Dieu à cause de la plaie de la grêle, parce que grande était sa plaie, extraordinairement » (Rév. 16:21).  TG2015 15/7 p16 Quelles autres perles spirituelles as-tu découvertes dans la lecture biblique de cette semaine ? Rév.13:1-4, 18. “ Une bête sauvage ” symbolisant les gouvernements humains monte “ de la mer ”, c’est-à-dire des masses agitées de l’humanité. Cette bête, que Satan a créée et dotée de pouvoir, porte le nombre 666, ce qui souligne son degré élevé d’imperfection. Sachant ce que représente cette bête, nous ne la suivons pas avec admiration ni ne l’adorons, contrairement à ce que font les humains en général. – TG2009  15/2 p4 Rév.13:8 — Qu’est-ce que “ le rouleau de vie de l’Agneau ” ? Il s’agit d’un rouleau symbolique où ne sont inscrits que les noms de ceux qui sont appelés à régner avec Jésus Christ dans son Royaume céleste, y compris les noms des chrétiens oints qui sont encore sur la terre. Les premiers noms qui y ont été inscrits l’ont été à la Pentecôte de l’an 33. Par la suite, un nombre sans cesse croissant de noms y a été ajouté. Depuis 1918, l’œuvre consistant à sceller le reste des 144 000 héritiers du Royaume est entrée dans sa phase finale. Bientôt, tous auront leur nom écrit de façon indélébile dans le rouleau de vie de l’Agneau.– TG2009  15/2 p3 Adorer la “ bête sauvage ” et son “ image ”, leur rendre hommage ou s’incliner devant elles revient à les servir, car leurs adorateurs s’identifient à des partisans de “ la bête sauvage ” et de son “ image ” par une marque sur la main (avec laquelle on sert) ou sur le front (visible de tous). Puisque c’est le Diable qui donne à la bête sauvage son pouvoir, adorer la bête sauvage signifie en réalité adorer ou servir le Diable. — Ré 13:4, 15-17 - it-1 p574 13:11-13 — En quel sens la bête sauvage à deux cornes agit-elle comme un dragon et fait-elle descendre du feu du ciel ? Le fait que la bête sauvage à deux cornes, identifiée à la Puissance mondiale anglo-américaine, parle comme un dragon signifie qu’elle recourt aux menaces, aux pressions et à la violence pour forcer les gens à accepter son type de domination. Elle fait descendre du feu du ciel en ce sens qu’elle s’attribue le rôle d’un prophète en prétendant qu’elle a vaincu les forces du mal au cours des deux guerres mondiales du XXe siècle et qu’elle l’a emporté sur le communisme. – TG2009  15/2 La virginité spirituelle. Tout comme le grand prêtre en Israël ne pouvait épouser qu’une vierge, de même le Grand Prêtre souverain, Jésus Christ, ne peut avoir au ciel qu’une “ vierge ” pour “ épouse ” spirituelle. L’épouse de Christ se compose de 144 000 personnes ointes de l’esprit, qui, individuellement, préservent leur ‘ virginité ’ en se tenant séparées du monde et en se gardant pures sur les plans moral et doctrinal. — Ré 14:1, 4 – it-1 p1153 En raison de toute la propagande satanique faite dans le monde, les paroles que Jean met maintenant par écrit sont vraiment appropriées : “ Écoute ! Je viens comme un voleur. Heureux celui qui reste éveillé et garde ses vêtements de dessus, pour qu’il ne marche pas nu et qu’on regarde sa honte. ” (Révélation 16:15). Qui vient “ comme un voleur ” ? Jésus lui-même, qui arrive à une heure non précisée en qualité d’Exécuteur au service de Jéhovah. Lorsqu’il était encore sur la terre, Jésus a également comparé sa venue à celle d’un voleur, en disant : “ Veillez donc, parce que vous ne savez pas quel jour votre Seigneur vient. Voilà pourquoi, vous aussi, montrez-vous prêts, car c’est à une heure que vous ne pensez pas que le Fils de l’homme vient. ” (Matthieu 24:42, 44 ; Luc 12:37, 40). Faisant écho à cet avertissement, l’apôtre Paul a dit : “ Le jour de Jéhovah vient exactement comme un voleur dans la nuit. Quand ils diront : ‘ Paix et sécurité ! ’ alors une destruction subite sera sur eux à l’instant même. ” “ Paix et sécurité ! ” : toute proclamation de ce genre est trompeuse ; elle émane de Satan. – re chap32 §27 En Révélation 16:15, Jésus nous avertit qu’une chose similaire peut arriver de nos jours. Les prêtres et les Lévites préfiguraient les frères oints de Jésus. Mais, par extension, la mise en garde de Jésus concerne aussi la grande foule. Les vêtements de dessus en question identifient ceux qui les portent à des chrétiens Témoins de Jéhovah. S’ils laissaient les pressions que le monde de Satan exerce sur eux les faire sombrer dans le sommeil, ou l’inactivité, ils perdraient probablement ces vêtements de dessus ; en d’autres termes, ils cesseraient d’être identifiés à des chrétiens purs. Cette situation les couvrirait de honte. Ils risqueraient d’aller à un échec complet. - re chap32 §30 “ Et elles [les paroles inspirées par les démons] les ont rassemblés [les rois ou dirigeants humains] au lieu qu’on appelle en hébreu Armaguédon. ” (Révélation 16:16). Ce nom n’apparaît qu’une seule fois dans la Bible, mais il a enflammé l’imagination des hommes. Les dirigeants du monde mettent les hommes en garde contre l’éventualité d’un Armaguédon nucléaire. Le terme Armaguédon étant également associé à la ville antique de Meguiddo, qui fut le théâtre de nombreuses batailles décisives aux temps bibliques, des chefs religieux en ont déduit que la guerre ultime qui sera livrée sur la terre aura lieu dans cette petite région du globe. Ils sont en cela fort éloignés de la vérité. Ce nom ne désigne toutefois pas un lieu réel, mais représente la situation dans laquelle toutes les nations en opposition avec Jéhovah Dieu sont rassemblées et seront finalement détruites par lui. Il s’agit d’une situation mondiale - re chap32 §31,32
    • Moving forward, 7:25 He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership,* in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely. 27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’28 “This is the end of the matter. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts alarmed me greatly, so that I turned pale; but I kept the matter in my own heart.” I have read the book Pay Attention to Daniel Prophesy many times. I agree with the description of events of Daniel 7. Jehovah has let the world alone,that all events are mans mistakes. I see this as the first physical act against Satan's world? As I read 7:25,26,27 it appears an event happens 3-1/2 times or 3-1/2 years before the entire Kingdom takes possession of the Earth at Armageddon.   Is this a fulfillment after the persecution of the GB after 1914 as written in the Daniel book of chapter 9?
    • Are you for real? You know nothing about me.....and the tests I had to face....  But I know the word of God and I have paid my dues.  My daughter had cancer and had surgery  which lasted the entire day..... without blood and she was 8 and half months old.  .... If she had taken blood she would not have survived.  It is what the doctors and this world don't tell you that is important!  I can share all the info I learnt  with you to prove to you that the bible is absolutely right when it cautions us to abstain from blood. .... if you are interested I can inform you. It takes the liver 30 days to break down foreign blood in the system..... if the person is too weak they get anaphalactic shock from the blood transfusion - which is never given as the reason for death on the death certificate. ..... always complications from surgery. Life is important to me ..... but everlasting life is more important. 
    • Are you honest? I have just seen you bashing JWs, never acknowledging anything good about them.   You have given me labels many times in your so-called bias - search for something which can only be called truth if it confirms to your personal viewpoint.  How unrealistic this expectation in a wicked world...... Do you believe the bible?   Yes or No ?   God himself chose king Saul for his humility and then saul turned aside and became unapproved.... to the extent that he visited the witch if Endor calling up the dead.   Jesus chose Jude himself after praying with holy spirit and jude later became  wicked (practicing theft, deceit) and eventually betrayed him.....  We can try to obtain a clean congregation but there will always be individuals who can turn wicked and create problems until someone speaks up and evidence is obtained.   And if the government cannot get a conviction ?  Then we only have rumours to go on..... which is unloving if there is no proof.  The bible itself says we must not defame others.  It is also a grave offence.  This is why it is hard to obtain perfection. Do we err on the side of obtaining justice or mercy...... because both these attributes are important.
    • We had a joke in SA - the light green people must please sit in the back of the bus...... In South Africa we use the term 'coloured' in different way than USA.   Historically we had a group of people (since inception of SA 370 years ago) who were a mix between black and white and they spoke the European language : Dutch.  So they were officially not black and not white.  To the whites they were never white enough and for the black people not black enough. 
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