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1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

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44 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anyone who makes claims that are not backed up by evidence might just be showing a lack of care about truth and honesty. That's not necessarily dishonesty, and it might just be based on strong opinions or personal experiences, or believing what one thinks one must believe to keep small pieces of their world view (belief structures) from collapsing. But people who make claims that are contradicted by evidence and who cannot or will not try to present relevant evidence to support their claims, well, unfortunately, those people really are being dishonest, even if their motive is to hang on to an ideology or belief structure they know to be important.

I believe you fall short on this one since it can be applied to you and others here.

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Some WT publications in articles that talk about the end of 6,000 years, and these are the well-known passages on the Internet, even today show that people of that time had great expectations about 1975. And today's reader, by reading same quotes, who did not live in that time and euphoria about a possible future, may come to the conclusion that JW expected change on global scale (nothing new in fact,  IBS and then JW expected that change more then one time, and still now talking "the end is very near")
Is there a sentence in an article that speaks directly or indirectly about some details about 1975 may not be a crucial thing that have to give us an answer today to the question of truth and honesty of WT, and then of the JW member too.
JW brothers and sisters in the time before 1975 had the expectation that change might occur. Did those who had hoped for the new world were a lot or a few, what motives they had and why, that is irrelevant !! WT has given material, spiritual food that has led to the warming up of interest for the possibility in coming of Armageddon and for the Kingdom that will rule over the Earth.

This very fact how 1975 is mentioned not only by ex-JW, but also by JW members and was/is of public speaks and in WT magazines show how something was controversial and  disputable in connection/with 1975.

I was baptized in 1977, started study "blue bomb" in 1975. And have memorized that 1975 was year that some JW with whom i had contacts (elders too)  expected how something will happen. 

Today, I drove a car to the service and returned by bus to the city. One sister, her husband is elder, recognized me after many years and she knew I was no longer JW, started talking to me. She said how she is very happy for getting  new job (in school) after been unemployment for some time, and now can easier to repay the mortgage. In the end she told me that she is hoping  I will return to the assembly because "now is very close to the end".   What is interesting, she and her husband was single workers at Zagreb Betel. They get married and continue work in Betel. After some years must left because personal problems, She became suicidal. Her husband was one to whom i send many quotes from articles, before few years, in English language, about some issues and 1975 also. He never responded to my e-mails. 

Well, JW people living from generation to generation with similar "now is very close to the end". 

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Maybe is  that what happened before, but also this what is happening now in the WT corporation, like this one;

Dallas police officer was charged on Sunday with manslaughter in the fatal shooting of a neighbor, who authorities said was shot by the officer when she walked into an apartment she thought was her own and mistook the man living there for an intruder.

The bizarre sequence of events unfolded after the police officer, Amber Guyger, 30, had just completed a shift late on Thursday and was still in uniform as she returned to an apartment she erroneously believed was hers, police said.

 

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't defend the views of ex-Witnesses except where the evidence happens to coincide with their views, in which case we don't have much choice if we are honest.

How is it any different from ex-witness view then, that you agree with their distorted facts? That means you are deliberately adding to the false narrative that you are trying so hard to convince people here you are again'st. People can't have it both ways. This doesn't make any sense on an intellectual level when people support opposing views. Either directly or indirectly by agreeing with incoherency through up or down votes.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

By "evidence" here, I'm referring specifically to quotations from Watch Tower publications.

You have contradicted your stance with the Watchtower. But, I guess this is what's happens when you go to an apostate site like JWfacts to gather the material.

Then why be judgmental toward the Watchtower. If you don’t want to judge former witnesses for their hatred and prosecution? Then why is it so simple to imply the Watchtower has done something wrong, when in reality as you stated, it never did.

Where is the red line for that kind of behavior? That people find it easy to pile on, on a misconception.

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1 hour ago, Grey Reformer said:

Where is the red line for that kind of behavior? That people find it easy to pile on, on a misconception.

Grey Reformer:

Please go back and re-read what you have written in the last several weeks. It is all extremely consistent.

You care NOTHING about actual facts ... if it disagrees with your agenda.

In the very first issue of the Watchtower, Bro. C. T. Russel stated that ( heavily paraphrased) "The truth is the truth, no matter what the source ... if Satan tells you something that is true... it's still true".

That is still true today.

 

GB BEING TOLD THE TRUTH.jpg

 

 

WHAT IS TRUTH1.jpg

 

You may want to download BOTH  JPGs,  but especially the quote from Bro. Charles Taze Russel, which started the whole shebang of modern day Jehovah''s Witnesses ... based ON THIS PRINCIPLE. ... " What is Truth ?" It is high resolution, and easier to read when downloaded and enlarged.

 

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You care NOTHING about actual facts ... if it disagrees with your agenda.

In the very first issue of the Watchtower, Bro. C. T. Russel stated that ( heavily paraphrased) "The truth is the truth, no matter what the source ... if Satan tells you something that is true... it's still true".

I can see where it would become a problem for people that admit one thing, turn around and stab people in the back. Actual facts are in black and white. Many here are merely instigators to purge on the intelligence of others, with actual known facts that JWinsider has already admitted to. I don’t need to resort to ad-hominem attacks or hurl insults. But I guess that’s a handicap for those that you disagree with. Sorry for not being part of your distorted team. I have a conscience and I’m faith when obeying God. Thus far, the only point made here, former witnesses are wrong about 1975, and some of you are wrong to think they’re way by giving the same company line. Which truth should we follow, God and Jesus, or Satan? God and Christ never hide or distorted the truth to get their way, while Satan did.

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" STAY ALIVE 'TILL '75"

The climatic conclusion met with thunderous applause of the 1967 Charles Sinutko Assembly talk "Serving With Everlasting Life In View" !

After his opening weasel wording  he forgot his plausible deniability statement in the beginning, and ramped it up to a crescendo conclusion  that had the crowd roaring!

"STAY ALIVE 'TILL '75"

 

1967_Charles_Sinutko_Serving_With_Everlasting_Life_in_View_64kb.mp3

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9 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

You have contradicted your stance with the Watchtower. But, I guess this is what's happens when you go to an apostate site like JWfacts to gather the material.

Let me make it easy for you. In this post I will include every single word I have ever quoted from the jwfacts.com site, where it was not merely a quotation from a Watch Tower publication.

  • THIS TOPIC: ZERO (nothing under this topic was remotely related to jwfacts, not even a Watch Tower quotation!)
  • The 1925/1975 TOPIC: ZERO (two posts; only using WT quotes from jwfacts, nothing except WT quotes)
  • The Armageddon Predictions TOPIC: ZERO (in only one post, all quotes from jwfacts are only direct WT quotes)

I admit that I also quoted a Watch Tower publication from his site (Trey Bundy's) about two years ago to show where his site was factually wrong about the timing of the transition from 1874/78 to 1914. This again was not anything he had written himself, but a quote from a Watch Tower publication.

After I have included the complete list of every word I quoted from jwfacts, you will have the opportunity to tell everyone what you thought was wrong with the Watch Tower quote. If a Watch Tower quote is wrong just because it was typed out on an apostate site, then all someone would have to is try to put ALL Watch Tower publications on an apostate site and you could never quote from hardly any Watch Tower publications again! In fact, I think "avoidJW" did that very thing.

So again, you should notice that I never quoted a word from his site that was not part of a direct quote from Watch Tower publications. The reason for this is that the Watchtower Library only takes Awake! magazines back to 1970, and only includes books that go back to the late 1970's, and I thought I might be quoting from 1966 thru 1968 Awakes and both the Truth book and the Life Everlasting book from 1968 and 1966, respectively. I also noticed while I was there that he had already retyped the Watch Tower's words from after the failures of 1925 and 1914.

======reference=======

FOR REFERENCE, here is everything that was quoted from the site jwfacts.com, repeated below. In each post where I took the Watch Tower quotes directly from his site, I referenced jwfacts, because he had done the work of formatting the Watch Tower reference publication title and page numbers, and in some cases he had included his own highlighting of specific words.

FROM THE "ARMAGEDDON PREDICTIONS" TOPIC:

The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216

  • "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom."

Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19

  • "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!"

"Let Your Kingdom Come" (1981) p.102

  • But now in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest, "a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!

Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12

  • "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."

There is also a quote from the 1966 Life Everlasting book and a 1968 Awake! where I picked up some of the Watch Tower's words from his site rather than retype them myself. The rest of the quotations from Watch Tower publications I quoted directly from looking them up in the Watchtower Library, except for the long quotes from 1881 Zion's Watch Tower which I picked up from a Bible Student site called agsconsulting.com. In both cases I ended up at jwfacts because I had typed: "Shortly within our twentieth century" in Google and jwfacts was the first choice, and when I typed "Zion's Watch Tower May 1881" into Google, the Bible Student site was the third choice.

FROM THE 1925/1975 . . . Why did so many people leave? TOPIC (found in two separate posts):

“It was stated in the 'Millions' book that we might reasonably expect them to return shortly after 1925, but this was merely an expressed opinion; besides it is still shortly after 1925. ... Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything.” Watch Tower 1926 pp.196,232
“So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.”” Yearbook 1975 p.146
“Ever since the 1870's, Bible Students had been serving with a date in mind - first 1914, then 1925. Now they realized that they must serve for as long as Jehovah wishes.” Watchtower 1993 Nov 1 p.12
Also, the picture of a portion of a 1920 WTS "Bulletin"

“There is no doubt that many throughout this period were overzealous in their statements as to what could be expected. Some read into the Watch Tower statements that were never intended.” Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose p.52

“There were also other expectations concerning 1914. Alexander H. Macmillan, who had been baptized in September 1900, later recalled: "A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October. Had some been attracted by the thought of their own early salvation rather than love for God and a strong desire to do his will?” Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.61

If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.Watchtower 1976 Jul 15 p.441

"The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975." Yearbook 1980 pp.30-31 [I changed the word cantor to candor due to a typo on his site.]

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"The brothers also appreciated the candor of this? same talk, which acknowledg?e?d ?t?he Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment? a number felt regarding 1975." Yearbook 1980 pp.30-31 ?[I changed the word cantor to candor due to a typo on his site.]?

Speaking of CANDOR ... the following cartoon is how "candor" works at Warwick World Headquarters, as well as at other businesses ... EVERYWHERE. 

We are NOT immune to this!

It's a cartoon ... but what makes it funny ( and grabs your chest in a queasy sort of way generating sadness ...) is because there is SO MUCH TRUTH, in this satire of what is REAL.

 

dt180906.jpg

Here is a joke for you:

QUESTION: What do you call "candor" ... bundled with insincere kindness?

ANSWER::  No one knows, as truth is being deliberately obscured.

 

 

image.thumb.png.3c785c73fe1f8b51fe951463c3345c84.png

Your homework (should you decide to accept) is to print out the above CANVAS on an 8-1/2x11" piece of paper and find the six things that are deliberate lies, and write it  on the margins of your paper.

 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Let me make it easy for you. In this post I will include every single word I have ever quoted from the jwfacts.com site, where it was not merely a quotation from a Watch Tower publication.

Seems a bit dishonest since apostate sites quote Watchtower publications as you do. What does that prove? That you think in the same lines of distorting the facts? How about some actual facts that everyone here implies.

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7 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

How about some actual facts that everyone here implies.

Exactly! I gave actual facts and you just keep giving non-specific generalities and complaints that a small percentage of the actual facts and evidence from Watch Tower publications were also found on an apostate website, and therefore you seem to feel that they can therefore be ignored or distorted. Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that sincere people will see right through, and they will see us as more and more dishonest. It's disappointing. How about some actual facts?

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Grey Reformer:

Your entire thinking processes are contaminated by your honorable but misguided agenda.

You cannot defend what is indefensible, and expect to win an argument based on reason and logic when evaluating TRUTH.

5 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

Seems a bit dishonest since apostate sites quote Watchtower publications as you do. What does that prove? That you think in the same lines of distorting the facts? How about some actual facts that everyone here implies.

What I just quoted from you is SCARY ... to a logical mind.

It uses the same lack of reasoning that "...all prostitutes wear shoes ... so all people that wear shoes are prostitutes".

Grow up !!

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That’s right, those that stayed alive until 1975 got to be part of the 6000 years existence of mankind, and they also got to see the dramatic global changes that started humanity downward for the worse. So, yes! Stay alive until 1975.

True Christians became one step closer to God’s fulfillment. No one, but no one can change that with distorted Watchtower publications. People can read ALL of them in its proper context, and perhaps experience the delight 1975 brought to those loyally serving god. They savored and relished every minute of it. To know at some distant point, none of this will matter, for all of us will be judged according to our deeds.

There seems to be a disconnect when it comes to sincerity. Former witnesses here never have any.

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Example:

Because of my love for dogs, my heart firmly and absolutely believes my dogs who have died will be waiting for me at the Rainbow Bridge. (Look it up).  There is absolutely no shred of doubt in my heart. None whatsoever. Anywhere.

My mind knows, based on what is true, that it is a complete fantasy.

I am stuck believing with ALL my heart and soul, something that is a complete fantasy, and is not true.

In that regard, but about different subjects, you and I share the same affliction.

We have brains ... we must use them.

That is what adults are supposed to do.

As Yoda says, if I remember correctly .... : "There is only DO .... There is no try"

Do or Do not There is no try Yoda.mp4

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Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

All people that is/was facing with at least two opposite information are entering in this inner condition of brain, of intellect, of soul, of spirituality and found himself in very big trouble.     

You can deny all information's, even facts and stick to your belief in order to "survive" and to stay where you are now (in JWorg) because it is "easier" for mind and heart. By staying in JWorg option you will not destroy your "imagination". Imagination created by WT and by you. On this mutual project you put much efforts, energy, love, faith, money, health, time etc. To leave it, it means a defeat. Defeat for you. Not for WT. They will survive as Company, because they ARE Company.

But you, you can lose everything you built, for many years perhaps. That is very scary!

But dreaded idea to abandon, left  this "safe WT port" makes you, and many other JW,  ready to continue to believe in WT deception.

:((    

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I stay with Jehovah's Witnesses because the core theology is sound, and true .... and not because of the 85% arrogant self serving drivel I have to endure, and the resultant damage on the Brotherhood ... for three reasons:

1.) I appreciate what is actually true is exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses, and there is nowhere else to go, and

2.) I have learned to expect as a natural right NOTHING from anybody, and

3.) I do not fear death as some do .... might be a good chance to test what I think I know.

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