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1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

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Anna -
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2013

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There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point. Being outraged with distorted facts is exactly the position the public holds by those that remember or consider. Nowadays, it seldom does to the outside world. It matters to ex-witnesses the most since they plaster it throughout the internet. It matters here to keep a forgotten distorted view to promote that same agenda.

That means there is nothing different here that merits a good Christian discussion. It is simply an excuse to an end means of a negative portrayal of a failing system.

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4 minutes ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point.

You are right, Alithis Gnosis:

Some people will never, ever get the point of logic, and increased font size will not help them.

You can educate an ignorant man ... but there is nothing that can be done for stupid.

 

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47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

No one here could possibly offend me Srecko. I can’t say that about me offending others because of my views, here. Cognitive Dissonance theory can be applied by those that are disheartened by my viewpoints. The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic.

A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. If you place close attention to 1 Timothy 2:8–15, I mean really place close attention, then your theory is on solid ground. God made sure he thought about everyday problems with the best outcome. There is nothing that can’t be applied through scripture with the proper wisdom and reasoning.

This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

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4 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic. A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. . . . This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

This is just a small aside, for entertainment purposes. But I was reminded that it might be worth mentioning when I read about smear campaigns, ad hominem attacks, desperation, frustration and negative discourse.

A lot of people have probably noticed that over on the right side of the page you can usually find a little box like this one:

image.png

Out of habit I glance at it whenever I read a recent post, for reasons that might become obvious in a minute. Less than an hour ago "Grey Reformer" disappeared and I suspected that another name might take its place. Sure enough, within a couple minutes "Gray Reformer" was no longer online and the name "Alithís Gnosis" took its place. I knew what to expect, because I recognized the name as an alias of someone who evidently keeps a couple dozen such alias names. I expected a barrage of down votes or laughter votes or "sad votes." This time it was a short campaign of "sad votes." Then, as expected, "Alithís Gnosis" disappeared from the "Who's Online" list and the name "Grey Reformer" was found it its place again.

image.png

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

Coincidences don't necessarily give a true picture, but they can certainly be entertaining.

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2 hours ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

bigger fonts

as i can recall, JTR said ones that he write with bigger fonts because he can see that text better. Even i consider to put bigger fonts because of my dioptric glass i have (+3.5 for reading)  

i believe this is prime reason in his case :)))  

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your homework (should you decide to accept) is to print out the above CANVAS on an 8-1/2x11" piece of paper and find the six things that are deliberate lies, and write it  on the margins of your paper.

Sounds like a waste of time. But I'm retired, so I'll tell you what I would come up with:

  • ..."millions now living will never die."... This was a risky prophecy to make. But the risk probably didn't seem too high at the time since, after the failure of 1914, Rutherford said that people had more on which to base their faith in this prophecy than Noah had on which to base his faith in Jehovah telling him there would be a Flood. He said that there was more Bible evidence for 1925 than there was for 1914. But it turned out to be a false prophecy. So it turned out to be a "lie" in the Biblical sense, but it might not have been intentional if the human sources of this false prophecy believed it, and those who repeated it had faith in that human source.
  • "'The Finished Mystery,' the posthumous work of Pastor Russell" . . . This book quoted many times from Russell, but was definitely not the posthumous work of Pastor Russell. (For that matter, the title of the book was a lie, because it promoted itself as the final explanation of the mysteries of Ezekiel and Revelation, yet almost every explanation of the "mystery" in it is now considered to be false.) The Watch Tower publications explained why they called it the "posthumous" work of Pastor Russell in a very odd way. It was because, as a spirit creature who had just died, Russell was supposedly still alive in the spirit world (heaven) in 1917: "Though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work." according to "The Finished Mystery" page 144. It was clearly believed that Russell could still continue to influence the Watch Tower Society's publications in a way analogous to how Jehovah influenced the Bible writers.
  • "Since 1881 everybody ridiculed Pastor Russell . . ." Not everybody. Some believed him. Most people in the world had still never heard of him. According to current WT publications, many created a "cult" around him. Rhetorical hyperbole, not necessarily a "lie."
  • "Since 1881. . . the International Bible Students Association" . . . The International Bible Students Association [IBSA] did not exist until 1914 when it was incorporated in London. Before then Bible Students used the simple name "Bible Students" or "Associated Bible Students." Some refused a name, and some even called themselves Russellites and names related to Millennial Dawn, etc. This is not a "lie," just a potentially misleading ambiguity.
  • "Since 1881. . . Pastor Russell's [and IBSA's] message that the Bible prophesied a world war in 1914." The Bible never prophesied a single world war between multiple nations, but this could be a matter of interpretation. The Bible never prophesied anything whatsoever to do with the year 1914. In 1881, and for the next 20-some years, Russell and the IBSA promised that 1914 would be the year when the expected worldwide trouble would end, not begin. All human systems would collapse in 1914, governments, institutions, religions. There would be chaos for several months, but there would be no earthly governments remaining who would be capable of prosecuting such a war. The 7/15/1894 Watch Tower, p.226 said: "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."
  • "but the war came on time." Very misleading. By the time late 1913 had rolled around, Russell pretty much gave up hope and faith in this 1914 date and moved it to 1915. For a few months even into 1914, Russell even gave up altogether and talked about there being no chance of all that was expected actually happening on time, and he conceded that they must have been wrong, and talked about the prospect that 100 years from now [2014], people might wonder what all this talk had been about. As it was, in about 1904 they had moved the expectation of the great time of trouble to 1914 (sometimes 1915) and began holding to the idea that this time of trouble might happen around October 1st or 2nd 1914. A world war broke out in July and gave them hope that this might be the beginnings of a worldwide collapse of all nations, governments, religions and other human institutions, where the only government with continued authority would be that of literal Israel in Palestine, and God would take a spiritual Israel to rule from heaven in 1914. It turned out, instead, to be a world war between several nations, and many more nations existed after the war, than were numbered before the war -- the opposite of the expectation of all nations disintegrating. Also Israel didn't get back on the map until decades later, and Israel never did become the only remaining human government on earth. Nothing predicted about 1914 ever came true. The most important things proved to be quite the opposite.
  • "and now the message of his final work" . . . Again with the false attribution to Russell who did not work on this book. It was written by George Fisher and Clayton Woodworth along with the claim that Russell had communicated from beyond the veil as a spirit creature to write it posthumously (after he died).
  • "It is an absolute fact. . ." . . . The phrase most often prefixed to bigger than usual lies, especially to sell products. You don't usually have to look at the next phrase to know that it won't usually be true.
  • "It is an absolute fact, stated in every book of the Bible. . ."  Like I said, you didn't need to look. It's absolutely false.
  • "It is an absolute fact. . . foretold by every prophet of the Bible" . . . Just like with the books, it turned out that it was not predicted by any book of the Bible nor any prophet of the Bible. Calling it thus is just an embarrassing way of trying to say you are a prophet speaking in Jehovah's name, sticking your neck out further to make sure that people will later see you as a false prophet if your fantastic guesses don't happen to come true.
  • "well worth a few evenings' time for investigation." . . . Quite the opposite. In fact, anyone who wants to discuss the book today among Witnesses will usually be suspected of apostasy. Even though it is still touted as a book that supposedly had the "ring of truth" no one can go more than a couple pages in the book without coming across something that Witnesses now recognize as false, if not embarrassingly false. And remember, the purpose of this investigation was to prove to yourself that Armageddon was culminating in 1925.
  • "The Golden Age" . . . The idea was that the Golden Age had already begun when the Millennium dawned back in 1874 and various advances in the world, new technology, and even medical advances and theories (that turned out to be from quacks and fraudsters) were supposed to give evidence that the Millennium had started 45 or more years earlier.
  • "both for two seventy-five (don't say dollars)" . . .  This speaks for itself. Internally, the persons who distributed most of these books were spoken of as selling the book, and book salesman could make a profit if they sold enough. The sales process was not so different from the way "colporteurs" in those days were selling books along with Fuller Brushes, Carter's Little Liver Pills, Bibles, Encyclopedias, etc. (Books by Mark Twain [Samuel Clemens] were a profitable moneymaker for colporteurs for many years. See below.)  If you followed the sales instructions and learned the pitch you could make a profit, whether you believed in the content or quality of the material or not.

This reminds me of a story I heard about colporteurs who used to sell the books of Mark Twain in the late 1800s and early 1900's. They could be had in about 4 or more levels of quality. The idea was also to upsell them on a better quality book if the householder agreed to a lower quality, or if they said no to the price of the highest quality (leatherbound, embossed, lithographs, etc.) then they might finally agree to a lower quality. It was a very irritating process to the householder. The goal of course was to get them moved to absolute most they might pay, so they might even split it up with part now and part cash on delivery. Just a quick search didn't find me the story, but I did notice this in a book called "Mark Twain's Road to Bankruptcy," below. You can see that "colporteurs" were not considered the best of society at the time.

image.png

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

That's a good one. First I am Allan, now I'm somebody else. I think there is something wrong with the mental stability of some here when people are free to chime in whenever they want. I guess that means you are James and Srecko.

But, this distraction of yours seems to playout everytime you get caught in a deception. A Trump ploy.

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21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

True. (Although I expect you intentionally misspelled it, just then.)

Since Anna spelled it that way, I am being polite not to go beyond your kind of grammar since it means so much too many of you. But, let me know who else I should be. Chime in anytime.

However, why don’t you explain to Anna the jubilee cycle, the restoration, and restitution idea about 1925, the correct way that is explained in the proclaimer’s book just fine?

Mind you, without attempting to hack my account, here. It's still against US law.

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

as i can recall, JTR said ones that he write with bigger fonts because he can see that text better. Even i consider to put bigger fonts because of my dioptric glass i have (+3.5 for reading)  

i believe this is prime reason in his case :)))  

Actually, I use 18 size fonts because that's the size text I think in.  

Also, you may have noticed that my text is black, not dark grey, because, I think in ink.

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3 hours ago, Anna said:
4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"millions? ?now liv?ing will ne?ver ??di?e??.?"??

So how has this been explained away today? I don't seem to recall anything...

Just as the "Ministry of Truth" did in the book "1984" by George Orwell, the Society is revising History, wherever they can, to change graphic images ( posters, handbills, and other things that might be used in a current illustration) to read "Millions now living MAY never die." (emphasis mine).

The book "1984 was SUPPOSED to be a fictional dire warning of how societies evolve into a perpetual tyranny over time, and showing how it could happen.

We us it as a policy manual.

In "1984"  England  had evolved into INGSOC, and the way they maintained total social control was by changing the past by changing all historical references .... and by controlling the past, controlled the present, and controlled the future .... making it difficult or impossible to check the past for truthful references to ANYTHING.

The Society today is actively using this technique to change the past. In many cases the bound volumes of the Watchtowers and Awakes have been revised and do not show what was in the original magazines, and convention videos today mentioning our history make you wonder if they are talking about something that happened somewhere in a parallel Universe.

The "Millions now living may never die" is only THE classic example of rewriting the past, to control the present, and by controlling the present, control the future.

Here are two videos that explain "1984".

Watch them and weep.

 

 

The Dystopian World of 1984 Explained.mp4George Orwell's 1984, Part 2_ Crash Course Literature #402 (1).mp4

 

NOW ... find the movie "1984", and watch it. It has a superstar of yesteryear in it ... but you hardly notice.

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Coincidences don't necessarily give a true picture, but they can certainly be entertaining.

Never pay attention to coincidences like this. They mean nothing. hehehehe

Just remember: Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult!

And don’t listen to that liar @TrueTomHarley when he pretends to agree, but adds:

C. courage

U. unity 

L. love

T. truth

 

Arrrggghhhh! I hate him!

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2 hours ago, AllenSmith34 said:

While you’re at it, include 1914, and 607 material that was made light upon your approach of misrepresenting the Watchtower as a witness. Just as 1975, 1925, and whatever else opposers dwell on.

Yeah ... why dwell on such things ... Like Adolph Hitler is reported to have said when Allied Forces were battling , forcing their way into Germany from both sides, destroying their cities while destroying their armies .... "Those Allies have ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF HUMOR!"

We should look at 1925 and 1975 as funny ... like Grandmother's continuous flatulating at the Kitchen Table.

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Being rude, sarcastic, use ad hominem, insults, drama, procrastination, whatever else the mental state offers as an excuse, is very apparent here on a site that is supposed to be friendly to Jehovah’s Witnesses, and is responded by witnesses. I don’t know what kind of witnesses many of you think you are, a witness in good standing you’re not. Even if you are making it an excuse to further your bible teachings, honest and faithful Christians would amount to the discourse and rivalry that is expressed here in supporting the arguments former witnesses offer, and yet, openly agree that some of their arguments are valid when they all have been debunked.

Maybe the JW reformation group would be a more honest approach to relieve some of the anxieties some of you have by pretending to be witnesses. I really don’t understand who it is your fooling since nothing can be hidden from God. What possible good standing do you foresee, that would be in your favor in God’s Eyes. Not just as individuals, but as a faithful group that has the same assent toward each other as though they were married.

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Grey Reformer:

I have learned that between men of integrity, one can always be brutally blunt, but there is nothing you can do for Snowflakes who melt at a slight rise in "temperature".

Since you specifically asked for an answer, I will give you the general answer ... not point-by-point ... because it would take what would seem forever, and historically, would be a waste of my time.

The FACT is ... your viewpoint on human interactions is driven by your AGENDA, which on the surface, is quite noble, but you believe things that really happened did not, you believe things that are really are happening now are not happening, and you vigorously defend the completely indefensible.

I fully understand you are doing the best .. the VERY best ... that you know how to do with your world view of how things OUGHT to be.

You are ignorant, and cannot be taught.

You are going to have to educate yourself on how to think like an adult. 

I was a "late bloomer" in that regard myself, so having been there, I FULLY understand your dilemma.  I, also, was completely unteachable, hard headed, altruistic, and agenda driven ..... and painfully transparent to those that had to endure my cluelessness.

I of course was oblivious, because I was first clueless.  Being clueless is like being dead. You do not know you are dead, but it is quite clear to every one else.

..... but I digress,

Reality is not what you think it SHOULD be.

Reality is what reality is.

You need to put on your "Big Boy Pants", stop thinking like a Watchtower Lawyer's six year old son  .... and grow up.

You asked for answers .... be careful what you ask for ....

BEST SCENE FROM _THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES_.mp4

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That’s good you feel you’re wasting God’s time. That’s the first honest thing anyone has said so far. As for wasting your time on humans, we all need to start with ourselves, then move on to a more progressive mental state where reasoning doesn't become a lack of conscience, and morals, not to man but to God. The sad thing, God holds standards for true Christians. He expects us to follow on Jesus example and obey biblical commands that are in black and white.

Anyone challenging those standards is simply telling God, I am a God as well, and I don’t need to subject myself to mortal men that you have assigned to carry your work. Let me know how God replies before judgment is set upon those that freely challenge his divine words. Matthew 6:33, James 1:2, Romans 12:2

Honest Christians will understand the bible script above. Although, Jesus made it a challenge to go beyond, and one step further in a symbolic way, Matthew 5:29. It works for all sorts of human behavior that people seem to think it only means for adultery. This is why God seeks spiritually mature people to take the lead, and we can’t will that pesky command away.

The point to look at, why would Jesus allow an infected part of his body to poison the rest of the body. Doesn’t a doctor that has a patient that developed gangrene find it a need to amputate that dead section before it affects other parts of the body or cause death? This is the logic that is being displayed here. Allow the gangrene in place to see what we can learn. So, let’s study it, by making claims and suppositions on how the doctors can learn without there being any mistakes on the proper treatment that is urgently needed. But, let’s see how far we can take it, by using false research before the patient dies.

I don’t find any of it funny, or see the humor about God holding us responsible for every human we drive away from learning about him and Christ. But, then again, I wouldn’t want to, and I’m certain God isn’t laughing either.

Therefore, I do understand that former witnesses carry a false narrative when it comes to 1925 and 1975. I do understand that the Watchtower never claimed Armageddon would come on those years, just like C.T. Russell never claimed it would come in 1914. So, I don’t dwell on false claims. Once in a blue moon, it will come out, and those that have an erred understanding will see for themselves, once the evidence is presented to them in the correct way.

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38 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

I don’t find any of it funny, or see the humor about God holding us responsible for every human we drive away from learning about him and Christ. But, then again, I wouldn’t want to, and I’m certain God isn’t laughing either.

You misconstrue EVERYTHING.

I cannot help you.

40 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

That’s good you feel you’re wasting God’s time.

You misconstrue EVERYTHING.

I cannot help you.

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