Jump to content

JW Insider

1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

Topic Summary


Last Reply



JW Insider -
The Librarian -

Top Posters

Recommended Posts

There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point. Being outraged with distorted facts is exactly the position the public holds by those that remember or consider. Nowadays, it seldom does to the outside world. It matters to ex-witnesses the most since they plaster it throughout the internet. It matters here to keep a forgotten distorted view to promote that same agenda.

That means there is nothing different here that merits a good Christian discussion. It is simply an excuse to an end means of a negative portrayal of a failing system.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

There seems to be a consensus that bigger fonts drive some kind of a point.

You are right, Alithis Gnosis:

Some people will never, ever get the point of logic, and increased font size will not help them.

You can educate an ignorant man ... but there is nothing that can be done for stupid.


Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Not wish to offend Mr. G. Reformer. But one possible explanation why you G.R. has (and all other, as me too before few years) this feelings and attitude is, as i see, in problem (it is not problem in fact but tool by with what we as person can move in two possible direction)  called Cognitive Dissonance.

No one here could possibly offend me Srecko. I can’t say that about me offending others because of my views, here. Cognitive Dissonance theory can be applied by those that are disheartened by my viewpoints. The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic.

A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. If you place close attention to 1 Timothy 2:8–15, I mean really place close attention, then your theory is on solid ground. God made sure he thought about everyday problems with the best outcome. There is nothing that can’t be applied through scripture with the proper wisdom and reasoning.

This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Grey Reformer said:

The truth usually hits at the heart of those that strongly oppose such logic. A smear campaign only brings out to light, what Christ meant about negative discourse. Evil. . . . This is why ad hominem attacks are a source of desperation to some, instead of frustration by others.

This is just a small aside, for entertainment purposes. But I was reminded that it might be worth mentioning when I read about smear campaigns, ad hominem attacks, desperation, frustration and negative discourse.

A lot of people have probably noticed that over on the right side of the page you can usually find a little box like this one:


Out of habit I glance at it whenever I read a recent post, for reasons that might become obvious in a minute. Less than an hour ago "Grey Reformer" disappeared and I suspected that another name might take its place. Sure enough, within a couple minutes "Gray Reformer" was no longer online and the name "Alithís Gnosis" took its place. I knew what to expect, because I recognized the name as an alias of someone who evidently keeps a couple dozen such alias names. I expected a barrage of down votes or laughter votes or "sad votes." This time it was a short campaign of "sad votes." Then, as expected, "Alithís Gnosis" disappeared from the "Who's Online" list and the name "Grey Reformer" was found it its place again.


Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

Coincidences don't necessarily give a true picture, but they can certainly be entertaining.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Alithís Gnosis said:

bigger fonts

as i can recall, JTR said ones that he write with bigger fonts because he can see that text better. Even i consider to put bigger fonts because of my dioptric glass i have (+3.5 for reading)  

i believe this is prime reason in his case :)))  

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your homework (should you decide to accept) is to print out the above CANVAS on an 8-1/2x11" piece of paper and find the six things that are deliberate lies, and write it  on the margins of your paper.

Sounds like a waste of time. But I'm retired, so I'll tell you what I would come up with:

  • ..."millions now living will never die."... This was a risky prophecy to make. But the risk probably didn't seem too high at the time since, after the failure of 1914, Rutherford said that people had more on which to base their faith in this prophecy than Noah had on which to base his faith in Jehovah telling him there would be a Flood. He said that there was more Bible evidence for 1925 than there was for 1914. But it turned out to be a false prophecy. So it turned out to be a "lie" in the Biblical sense, but it might not have been intentional if the human sources of this false prophecy believed it, and those who repeated it had faith in that human source.
  • "'The Finished Mystery,' the posthumous work of Pastor Russell" . . . This book quoted many times from Russell, but was definitely not the posthumous work of Pastor Russell. (For that matter, the title of the book was a lie, because it promoted itself as the final explanation of the mysteries of Ezekiel and Revelation, yet almost every explanation of the "mystery" in it is now considered to be false.) The Watch Tower publications explained why they called it the "posthumous" work of Pastor Russell in a very odd way. It was because, as a spirit creature who had just died, Russell was supposedly still alive in the spirit world (heaven) in 1917: "Though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work." according to "The Finished Mystery" page 144. It was clearly believed that Russell could still continue to influence the Watch Tower Society's publications in a way analogous to how Jehovah influenced the Bible writers.
  • "Since 1881 everybody ridiculed Pastor Russell . . ." Not everybody. Some believed him. Most people in the world had still never heard of him. According to current WT publications, many created a "cult" around him. Rhetorical hyperbole, not necessarily a "lie."
  • "Since 1881. . . the International Bible Students Association" . . . The International Bible Students Association [IBSA] did not exist until 1914 when it was incorporated in London. Before then Bible Students used the simple name "Bible Students" or "Associated Bible Students." Some refused a name, and some even called themselves Russellites and names related to Millennial Dawn, etc. This is not a "lie," just a potentially misleading ambiguity.
  • "Since 1881. . . Pastor Russell's [and IBSA's] message that the Bible prophesied a world war in 1914." The Bible never prophesied a single world war between multiple nations, but this could be a matter of interpretation. The Bible never prophesied anything whatsoever to do with the year 1914. In 1881, and for the next 20-some years, Russell and the IBSA promised that 1914 would be the year when the expected worldwide trouble would end, not begin. All human systems would collapse in 1914, governments, institutions, religions. There would be chaos for several months, but there would be no earthly governments remaining who would be capable of prosecuting such a war. The 7/15/1894 Watch Tower, p.226 said: "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."
  • "but the war came on time." Very misleading. By the time late 1913 had rolled around, Russell pretty much gave up hope and faith in this 1914 date and moved it to 1915. For a few months even into 1914, Russell even gave up altogether and talked about there being no chance of all that was expected actually happening on time, and he conceded that they must have been wrong, and talked about the prospect that 100 years from now [2014], people might wonder what all this talk had been about. As it was, in about 1904 they had moved the expectation of the great time of trouble to 1914 (sometimes 1915) and began holding to the idea that this time of trouble might happen around October 1st or 2nd 1914. A world war broke out in July and gave them hope that this might be the beginnings of a worldwide collapse of all nations, governments, religions and other human institutions, where the only government with continued authority would be that of literal Israel in Palestine, and God would take a spiritual Israel to rule from heaven in 1914. It turned out, instead, to be a world war between several nations, and many more nations existed after the war, than were numbered before the war -- the opposite of the expectation of all nations disintegrating. Also Israel didn't get back on the map until decades later, and Israel never did become the only remaining human government on earth. Nothing predicted about 1914 ever came true. The most important things proved to be quite the opposite.
  • "and now the message of his final work" . . . Again with the false attribution to Russell who did not work on this book. It was written by George Fisher and Clayton Woodworth along with the claim that Russell had communicated from beyond the veil as a spirit creature to write it posthumously (after he died).
  • "It is an absolute fact. . ." . . . The phrase most often prefixed to bigger than usual lies, especially to sell products. You don't usually have to look at the next phrase to know that it won't usually be true.
  • "It is an absolute fact, stated in every book of the Bible. . ."  Like I said, you didn't need to look. It's absolutely false.
  • "It is an absolute fact. . . foretold by every prophet of the Bible" . . . Just like with the books, it turned out that it was not predicted by any book of the Bible nor any prophet of the Bible. Calling it thus is just an embarrassing way of trying to say you are a prophet speaking in Jehovah's name, sticking your neck out further to make sure that people will later see you as a false prophet if your fantastic guesses don't happen to come true.
  • "well worth a few evenings' time for investigation." . . . Quite the opposite. In fact, anyone who wants to discuss the book today among Witnesses will usually be suspected of apostasy. Even though it is still touted as a book that supposedly had the "ring of truth" no one can go more than a couple pages in the book without coming across something that Witnesses now recognize as false, if not embarrassingly false. And remember, the purpose of this investigation was to prove to yourself that Armageddon was culminating in 1925.
  • "The Golden Age" . . . The idea was that the Golden Age had already begun when the Millennium dawned back in 1874 and various advances in the world, new technology, and even medical advances and theories (that turned out to be from quacks and fraudsters) were supposed to give evidence that the Millennium had started 45 or more years earlier.
  • "both for two seventy-five (don't say dollars)" . . .  This speaks for itself. Internally, the persons who distributed most of these books were spoken of as selling the book, and book salesman could make a profit if they sold enough. The sales process was not so different from the way "colporteurs" in those days were selling books along with Fuller Brushes, Carter's Little Liver Pills, Bibles, Encyclopedias, etc. (Books by Mark Twain [Samuel Clemens] were a profitable moneymaker for colporteurs for many years. See below.)  If you followed the sales instructions and learned the pitch you could make a profit, whether you believed in the content or quality of the material or not.

This reminds me of a story I heard about colporteurs who used to sell the books of Mark Twain in the late 1800s and early 1900's. They could be had in about 4 or more levels of quality. The idea was also to upsell them on a better quality book if the householder agreed to a lower quality, or if they said no to the price of the highest quality (leatherbound, embossed, lithographs, etc.) then they might finally agree to a lower quality. It was a very irritating process to the householder. The goal of course was to get them moved to absolute most they might pay, so they might even split it up with part now and part cash on delivery. Just a quick search didn't find me the story, but I did notice this in a book called "Mark Twain's Road to Bankruptcy," below. You can see that "colporteurs" were not considered the best of society at the time.


Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Probably just a coincidence ?, but the same thing happened a few days ago when another of his aliases went offline (I won't say who this time)  and it was immediately replaced by "Grey Reformer." This was right after that other easily recognized alias also took the opportunity to offer a short barrage of down votes. Full disclosure: I have seen this same coincidence happen literally dozens of times with the same set of aliases.

That's a good one. First I am Allan, now I'm somebody else. I think there is something wrong with the mental stability of some here when people are free to chime in whenever they want. I guess that means you are James and Srecko.

But, this distraction of yours seems to playout everytime you get caught in a deception. A Trump ploy.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

True. (Although I expect you intentionally misspelled it, just then.)

Since Anna spelled it that way, I am being polite not to go beyond your kind of grammar since it means so much too many of you. But, let me know who else I should be. Chime in anytime.

However, why don’t you explain to Anna the jubilee cycle, the restoration, and restitution idea about 1925, the correct way that is explained in the proclaimer’s book just fine?

Mind you, without attempting to hack my account, here. It's still against US law.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Jack Ryan
      Jehovah's Witnesses in a 1968 interview _Armageddon and 1975_ London Watchtower rep speaks to BBC.mp4
    • By JW Insider
      Because this post was moved away from its original context, a response to a post about Armstrong's promotion of 1975, I will edit the post below to contain all of @AllenSmith's original material, here. I'm moving his images outside the quote, so that they can be more easiliy seen as relevant to the discussion of H.W.Armstrong, as Allen intended.

      And, don't forget that, in 1956, Herbert W Armstrong supposedly stole the idea from the February 1, 1955 Watchtower, which put the end of 6,000 years within one year of 1976:
      *** w55 2/1 p. 95 Questions From Readers ***
      In 1953 in preparing the chart that appears in the book “New Heavens and a New Earth” a one-year error was brought to light. By the aid of the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the difference between the two numbers appearing at Genesis 7:6 and Genesis 7:11 became apparent, especially since there are two different Hebrew words here maintaining a distinct difference. At Genesis 7:6 the number 600 referring to Noah’s age means 600 full years, being what is generally termed a cardinal number. Whereas at Genesis 7:11 the number “600th,” an ordinal number, means 599 full years plus a portion of another year. . . .  Inasmuch as previously our chronology considered Noah as 600 full years old when he entered the ark, instead of the actual 599 years and some months, as we now see, this has meant that the preflood dates must be shrunk by one year, this bringing Adam’s creation for the fall of 4025 B.C. Incidentally, Jesus, who became the second or “last Adam,” was born in the fall of the year around the first of October.—1 Cor. 15:45, NW. It is well to understand that all Bible chronology dates for events prior to 539 B.C. must be figured backward from the Absolute date of 539 B.C. In the sure date of 607 B.C. for the fall of Jerusalem we have an anchor for the chronology establishment of the important year of 1914. By an overwhelming number of physical facts occurring since 1914, this great turning-point year in man’s history, 1914, has been abundantly confirmed. According to Genesis 1:24-31 Adam was created during the last part of the sixth creative-day period of 7,000 years. Almost all independent chronologists assume incorrectly that, as soon as Adam was created, then began Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period of the creative week. Such then figure that from Adam’s creation, now thought to be the fall of 4025 B.C., why, six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began. . . . The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date. Of course, just a decade or so later, the Watchtower began minimizing the amount of time it would have taken for a perfect man to name all the animals if Jehovah brought them to him in a steady stream. The flaw in this reasoning was that angels would surely know that amount of time that Jehovah had kept a secret, so they would be aware of the day and the hour "when 6,000 years of Jehovah's present rest day come to an end."
      There is also evidence that Fred W. Franz, who wrote the article above, in 1955, began recalculating in the early 1970's and wanted to begin publishing October 1974 as the date for the end of the 6,000 years of human history. F.W.Franz, I am told, thought this would have strengthened the 1975 argument. But this was supposedly one of the few times when N.Knorr put his foot down and told him he had caused enough trouble with 1975, and that Knorr thought that this vacillation would actually weaken the faith that people put in the Watchtower.
      You probably already know this, but to your point, many Witnesses had to be counseled not to listen to Armstrong's radio program, especially in the late 1960's and early 1970's when many Witnesses claimed that he sounded exactly like the Watchtower.
    • By Jesus.defender
      ("They lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn't come as they had implied over and over again," said Jim Penton, an ex-Witness who writes entries on Jehovah's Witnesses for the Encyclopedia Americana.)
    • By The Librarian
      by Fredrick William Franz
      Time In Which We Are Now Interested
      Los Angeles Sports Arena, Feb 5 1975
      I no longer have the version above....
      Although here is a version from Australia:
      Franz Fred - Time In Which We Are Now Interested Australia.mp3

    • By Aaron Gallegos
      The Governing Body claims to speak for God. They claim that they are spirit directed. Jesus warned us about false prophets making such claims at Matthew 24: 4, 5 & 7:15.
      The Governing Body showed a video on the first day of the 2017 regional convention where they place blame on the rank and file members for believing that 1975 would Mark the end of this system. This is a blatant lie. Here are quotes from their own publications to prove otherwise.
      01.) Life everlasting and freedom of the sons of God p.29,30.
      02.) 1970 July kingdom ministry under announcements. The public talk for the Circuit Assembly that service year is "Who will conquer the world in the 1970's?". Even a lapel card was printed for the members to wear.
      03.) 1968 Aug 15 Watchtower- Study article "Why are you looking  forward to 1975?". Members were told to ignore Jesus warning about no one knowing the day or hour.
      04.) 1968 Awake October 8
      05.) 1969 Awake May 22- Youths were told that they would NEVER GROW OLD in this system and it's useless to go to college because the system would not be here anymore.
      06.) May 1974 Kingdom Ministry- Members that sold their homes to and moved to serve as pioneers were COMMENDED as its the best way to use the rest of the time left in this system.
      What's very upsetting is that the Governing Body placed the blame on the members for believing the end would come in 1975. It was them and not the members that came up with This! They deliberately lie and hide evidence.

  • Forum Statistics

    Total Topics
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    Total Members
    Most Online
    Marek Markus
    Newest Member
    Marek Markus

  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.