At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[Space Merchant]

45 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks for this question. Many years ago similar questions went through my mind, about what David's servants and people around him and Bathsheba feels and thinking when they had passively and actively participate in that scandal, affair. What power forces them to be involved in wrong deeds of prominent persons in their midst? Many levels in hierarchy, family members, counselors, personal servants, other servants, elders, military leaders, religiously important persons and many others. All of them knew something, heard something, witnessed to something, not done something, ....and many more to tell and to feel.

Live that  to your imagination, because it is not simple to me to express all thoughts and feels. Just to tell at the and -----draw some  parallels to modern time, and you will see how all is the same. Everything is repeated cyclically. :))

If you take into context David's account, it would and should be clear, what it costed him, what he did to repent and make amends with God and what he did to secure things so that his successor can take over.

[JOHN BUTLER]

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

John here is the rest of my reply. I will try and be as concise as possible

The instance I gave you was from the 80’s when there was much more leeway in how some congregational matters were handled. The DOCUMENT we have now on the website  enables anyone to check if things are being handled the right way or not. I printed mine out.

 

For practicalities sake it makes sense that only a handful of people make up the FDS. Anointed ones are scattered all over the world and it would be hard for them to contribute in any meaningful way unless they were all present together, which is impossible. None of the anointed are above another anointed and nor is anyone anointed above someone who isn’t. Anyone who asks, can receive holy spirit as helper. The difference between one who is anointed and one who isn’t is only in their final destination. Faithful and discreet slave is not a title, merely a function that someone has to perform. The qualifications are no different to the qualifications of an Elder, except perhaps these men have a longer period of service before they are elected to be on the governing body.

I am not quite sure what you mean by that. I wouldn’t know what the GB thought and whether they pretended something.  I cannot read their thoughts....

Every human that has ever lived has been fallible. Every human that has been God’s true servant has been fallible. Countless Bible accounts testify to this fact. The only time a human has been able to say something that has been infallible was when under the influence of holy spirit, but ONLY in Bible times. This kind of privilege served its purpose for writing the Bible and for establishing the Christian congregation. Since then the holy spirit does not act in the same way. There is no miraculous interception, nor any inspiration. One simple reason is that everything we need is already in the pages of the Bible. The right food at the right time really is the presentation of the right scriptures at the right time. Not someone’s ideas. Yes, the information comes from God because the Bible is from God. But interpretation or the understanding of it is subject to the fallibility of man. Especially when it comes to prophecies.  Br. Jackson was asked about the operation of the holy spirit during the ARC hearing. Here is a short excerpt from the transcript:     

Q.   By what mechanism would you understand God's spirit to  direct your decisions?

Br. Jackson:   Well, what I mean by that is, by prayer and

ybe we were missing and then in another discussion that would come to light.  So we would view that as God's spirit   motivating us because we believe the Bible is God's word and came by means of holy spirit.

However, there are fundamental doctrines or truths which are clear and simple. It is these fundamental truths that have been the backbone of our faith and these have never changed. As long as we are clear on those fundamental truths, the other stuff is just frills that we may or may not change, or that we may or may not understand, or even personally consider important for the time being.

This is the paragraph you must be quoting from: Gods Kingdom Rules page 101: “The Bible Students long acknowledged that Christmas has pagan roots and that Jesus was not born on December 25. Zion’s Watch Tower of December 1881 stated: “Millions were brought into the church from Paganism. But the change was mostly in name, for the pagan priests became christian priests and the pagan holidays came to be called by christian names—Christmas being one of these holidays.” In 1883, under the title “When Was Jesus Born?” the Watch Tower reasoned that Jesus was born about the beginning of October.* Yet, the Bible Students did not at the time clearly see the need to stop celebrating Christmas. It continued to be celebrated even by members of the Brooklyn Bethel family. After 1926, however, things began to change. Why?

 

 As a result of careful, closer scrutiny of the subject, the Bible Students came to realize that the origin of Christmas and the practices associated with it actually dishonor God. 

 

 

It seems that they did make the necessary changes as soon as they realized. Prior to that they couldn’t have been convinced enough to take the decisive action necessary. I would hope I was given some leeway and patience if I took a little longer to making adjustments in my lifestyle. Life is progressive, experiences are progressive, knowledge is progressive. Rarely do things happen right from the get go.

What is one person’s positive action is another person’s holding back. There is no one size that fits all cases. Yes, I agree, some cases were woefully mishandled, and these are the cases that are reported on in the media. Other cases were handled well. I am sure you are aware that “successful” cases do not get reported in the media. Yes, most active JWs were unaware of a problem unless they were directly involved and/or unless they had children. Many JWs were under the impression that this cannot happen in our org. despite publications which said that indeed these things CAN happen in the org.  I explained the gist of the reasoning “we are better than anyone else” in my previous post.

 

The intentions are in Acts 3:19

If I understand correctly, your main concern is that people are aware that you left of your own volition because you no longer agree with some of the ways things are done in the organization. You are right, reasons for disfellowshipping are not given, out of regard for the dissfelliwshipped person and their family. But if you have disassociated yourself, and the announcement is made that "John Buttler has disassociated himself and therefore is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" then people will know it was because of something you did not agree with, and not because you necessarily committed some moral wrong. If people ignore you, then it is because you are no longer of "their sort" (1John 2:19) and will view you as a man of the nations, because you are no longer a part of the Christian congregation.

I am sure this magazine is intended for those who have “drifted” and become inactive as Jehovah's Witnesses. They are still considered JW to a certain extend.

Not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean organized?

Oh so many points, but i will only answer this one right now.

My wife was present when they announced that 'John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'.  They did not say i had disassociated myself.   I think that proves the point. 

I can see that you support the JW org with all your heart and I'm not in a battle with you. So best to just agree to differ.  You seem to take everything they say as right. So be it Anne. 

Have a good day. 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Just read a 76 page treatise on exactly this point and it makes use of the ARC info. https://www.academia.edu/37425975/How_have_the_Jehovahs_Witnesses_adapted_child_safeguarding_practices_and_guidance_to_local_circumstances_in_the_United_States_of_America_England_and_Australia

I don't think the person has any connection to JWs or anti-JWs.

How have the Jehovah's Witnesses adapted child safeguarding practices and guidance to local circumstances in the United States of America, England and Australia

• 
  Uploaded by

  Harvinder Singh

   

   University of Birmingham, Philosophy, Theology and Religion, Postgraduate Student

    | 

  Theology and Religion

  Studied English Literature and Language at The University of Leicester.
  I am currently studying the MA in Religion, Politics and Society at The University of Birmingham.
  
  I am particularly Interested in researching New World Religions (NRMs), particularly Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity, and Scientology.
  Supervisors: Prof. Nicholas Adams

Thanks for link. But i do not see what is on page 76 about G.J. quote. Please help.

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Can you prove I am grouping people together? Clearly I am showing the differences of Christology as well as making a distinction between the two, as sky to sea, there are differences.

Can you bring proof to claim of the problem I have because you have already failed your own claim of me pretending, as you professed twice now.

If anyone has a problem it is a man who believes he can purge something that came from the imperfection of men, not only it is a problem, it is outright dream-worthy when such a man cannot see reality for what it is and that only God can change such things, not man.

And yet you are capable of knowing who has God's approval and not? Who can forgive or not? Some of the things Gardner has professed you have brought them up too, just as his view on the bible itself. Yet when it is done in your favor no one is not allowed to bring up this point?

I am not judging, my statement is based on both the responses and reaction made by you and Srecko. I speak of educating our children to which Srecko makes claim I do not have concern for the well being of the youth, something of which I made points of time and time again to you and now.

If Srecko is right about me not caring why in the world would I post information brought up by Child Prevention sources?

I told you before, I do have a high concern and I believe God will cleanse this world of sin and death, if the latter claims this logic is a fail, why agree with him on this stance?

Not really. I make a response to a response and give a word if need be. If I felt inferior I would not be getting my information form a source and I'd be flailing in responses.

I say this because as someone who profess the gospel if they are incorrect they will go by means of insult and make outlandish claims, as I said before because of this and the racial slurs, it does not hinder me from professing the Bible.

Another thing because of the actions of a person, in this case an African American, society tends to blame all African Americans for the actions of a sole person - I do not believe this even when the race and background is in regards to others, but this mentality is at its prime in the US, as with in the UK for you.

This is the same with faith communities. If someone abused a child, it does not define the masses and they should not be singled out for the actions of a sole person, it is absurd and silly.

That being said, I am aware of how people are and I do not condemn an entire party, a group or people because of something that one or a few people have done, I do not buy into that mentality and I told you this countless times.

We can take example from even Jesus himself, who he himself knew the situation with the Jews and Sanitarians, as is with other biblical examples.

Just as God is fair and just, we should be likewise, not be ignorant to such at all.

And how is that so?

My response pretty much counters your question, as is with what I say about good and bad people of which you agreed with me on several times before. Why is it now it is different with you?

Unlike you I can discern and understand the difference in something someone or some group, I am not oblivious to what it means to be like a Berean and put forth discernment.

My comments are always this lengthy because I make a response to a response. It should not come as a surprise to you because our first discussion I told you I am literally like a book.

Therefore, I am knowledgeable, but I do not pretend because I take the time to read, study and research - that isn't pretending, Mr. Butler. As much as you can make claim to childish antics, it will always be unfounded for you and I both know pretending is for children. A bit ironic from a man who speaks of tricks not too long ago, if I may add.

So next time when you post information of someone like Mr. Gardner, do not boast of his efforts when the guy was causing problems to people and caused a divide among those who take up his influence.

I also suggest you take the time to read and research, perhaps you can play a role in what Child Prevention Services has provided for people to follow, you and your household can learn a thing or too and not ignore the problem.

AS for you in the UK, perhaps London would be a better place, just as Robinson's people have mentioned before they went crazy.

You seem to want to link me with Srecko and with this Mr Gardner whoever he is .  That was what i meant by grouping people together. 

It seems that you and I will always see things from different angles. So be it.  Have a good day.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

But you and Butler do not believe in educating our children to better themselves, therefore, stuff like this will happen.

Bravo SM ! What to expect from you SM, than your purposely attempt (stab) in redirecting responsibility of world biggest problems on individuals who are not suite to your Restoration normative (Butler and me and similar to us).

Your repetitions about what was previous comments of mine are and over and over again quoting what is said by this or that person is quite numbing.  Using such anesthesia is not useful in my case. Apart from proving that you have a good memory, the constant repetition of what was and when was someone had said something, does not show anything positive about you. :))

 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You should pay closer attention to exactly how SM answered this

On my direct asking (at least two time) to identifying self about his religious affiliation, he made  maneuvers of avoiding to answer on this. If he is JW perhaps he find it useful to "anonymously" as outsider, as JW "sympathizer"  defending WT Corporation. Sort of "theocratic warfare". :)))

On other hand, in general aspect, every "true" JW will found good to give public testimony/witnessing, and own public recognition as one of JW. Especially when many of participants here using "fake" names, or some substitution for personal name as some name of special meaning to them..

 

I do not want to talk about him and his motives. That is not polite, at least.

Well SM if you read this, you see that i control myself and not speaking nothing bad about you..... Greetings! :))

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Oh so many points, but i will only answer this one right now.

My wife was present when they announced that 'John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'.  They did not say i had disassociated myself.   I think that proves the point. 

I can see that you support the JW org with all your heart and I'm not in a battle with you. So best to just agree to differ.  You seem to take everything they say as right. So be it Anne. 

Have a good day. 

I am sorry, there was no one announced at our hall for such a long time so I don't know how exactly the announcement is made anymore. I can assure you though it will be known that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses because you do not agree with the organization. I remember someone was announced years ago, and everyone knew it was because he had differing views, and not because he had committed immorality or something like that.

Yes, it is best we agree to differ. I am just trying to be fair. I do not think everything they say is right, but I do believe we have the core important things right. The apostles in the first century also didn't have things right and had to change and adjust some things.  We are a work in progress, and this will always be the case as long as we are imperfect.

By the way I noticed in my previous reply that the quote from Br. Jackson got messed up and some things were missing, so I went and  put the missing bits back. But so that you don't have to go looking for it I will repost it here:

Q. By what mechanism would you understand God's spirit to  direct your decisions?

Br. Jackson:   Well, what I mean by that is, by prayer and using our constitution, God's word, we would go through the scriptures and see if there was any biblical principle at all that would influence our decision - and it could be that in our initial discussions there was something that maybe we were missing and then in another discussion that would come to light.  So we would view that as God's spirit   motivating us because we believe the Bible is God's word and came by means of holy spirit.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks for link. But i do not see what is on page 76 about G.J. quote. Please help.

It's not on page 76. It's a document that is 76 pages long on the topic of how Jehovah's Witnesses have adapted their child abuse protection policies in different ways depending on the law in various countries. It appears to the author that this is inconsistent and unexpected in a religion that takes a stand as if Witnesses know better than the national laws, and that the Bible authority would allow Witnesses to stand above the law. But the author does not understand that such an outcome can actually be a sign of a consistent recognition of Romans 13:1-5. Still, it's a pretty fair assessment and presentation of the problem and doctrinal/historical response among Witnesses. A few things wrong, but more right than wrong.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What I did find impressive, that a marketer and management person found time to write a thesis on the JW’s. Some bias, but not fully aware. ?

You found a different Harvinder Singh.

• Harvinder Singh  University of Birmingham, Philosophy, Theology and Religion, Postgraduate Student   
• Theology and Religion Studied English Literature and Language at The University of Leicester.
• I am currently studying the MA in Religion, Politics and Society at The University of Birmingham.
• I am particularly Interested in researching New World Religions (NRMs), particularly Jehovah's Witnesses, the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity, and Scientology.
• Supervisors: Prof. Nicholas Adams

It's one of many papers he has written. This latest supports what you said earlier:

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Watchtower doesn’t need the government to tell it what to do, but they do make adjustments to the laws given. This is no different than us obeying local laws when changes are made.

Here is the full list of his current contributions to academia.com

How have the Jehovah's Witnesses adapted child safeguarding practices and guidance to local circumstances in the United States of America, England and Australia

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How should a responsible journalist approach reporting on the subject of religion?

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Are governments obliged to intervene if Human Rights are violated in other countries? When and on what grounds?

This is an assignment that I had written for the postgraduate taught module, Human Rights (14515)... more

 

 

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What is the most convincing explanation for the emergence of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria?

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How has the United States of America countered ISIS? (Poster)

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Critical review of two empirical studies

This is a critical review of two empirical studies which are relevant towards my dissertation inv... more

 

 

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Identify and evaluate the main challenges ISIS (the so-called Islamic State) poses to the secular international system?

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Discuss the role the Indian government played if any in the 1984 November Sikh riots?

This is an un-published assignment that I researched regarding whether the Indian government had ... more

 

 

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[Thinking]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe in this case, witnesses that wish to interfere in the affairs of the Watchtower. When dealing with legal matters, they should find themselves well versed in legal definitions. Within the Australia territories, there are differences of opinion on how one fundamental religious sacrament should be viewed. Some define it as imperative, while others have become more liberal with its interpretation.

 

 

This is the reason Bro Jackson volunteered to make this issue the same across the entire country. The southern territories opposed making changes to the confessional seal. It remeans the same.

 

 

The outcry of disgruntled women here will not change how the government decides. The thing, which is being overlooked by such persons as yourself, the effort the Watchtower has made to educate parents best practices to protect their children, for decades.

 

 

This idea that Elders should be more proactive is an excuse by those wishing to lend a blind eye to scripture.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:11-18

 

 

11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

 

 

What witnesses are doing is defying God for a cause that outsiders really don’t want to understand.

 

 

You and I don’t know what the legal department is doing in the background. You advocate against conspiracy theory. When opposers offer tainted material, what should that be called? When witnesses add to that narrative and support the same tainted material, what should that be called?

 

 

If the Watchtower does 1000 things right, and 1 thing that is out of the Watchtower control. Critics focus on that 1 thing by offering questionable material or take watchtower articles out of context, then it should be left in God’s hand. Those witnesses that wish to continue with this activism, should find themselves behind a desk earning a law degree.

 

 

It is not a matter of the information seen, it's how that information is introduced and perceived.

 

 

Just as in Butler's example. A parent is the first defense for a child. If a mother allows the children to sit wherever they like, just because one parent is not a witness, just turned to an excuse for what the witness parent should be doing, keeping the family together. Why should an elder need to tell a person, what they should already know? Then, Srecko would be correct.

 

 

Okay Billy  the kid...let me make one thing clear to you...I have not overlooked the massive amount of work the society has done in educating all about this problem...in fact I use it.......you are very self righteous and judgmental...and I can only assume still a bit of a kid...where you and I are different is I listen to these so called disgruntled women....and men.....who have been raped ......I cannot even beleive you made such a clearly chauvinistic comment...but that does show your immaturity..so I’m giving you some leeway to leave your short pants you are wearing and will offer you patience to grow Into long pants ..thus show a bit of emotional maturity...

Many are confused and have doubts....we need to speak consolingly to those who have doubts....I can see on this thread there are a lot of troublemakers who will not listen to reason...they are here to cause division and trouble....but you do not help a lot as you come over rather pious...and self righteous......and that’s only gives them fuel brother...

I advocate for trying to understand both sides of the coin..but always with Jehovah’s love and  compassion...but there does come  time where one has To draw a line in the sand With out right trouble  makers.

you have stated some good points in your comment brother...but you don’t have it all correct either..and nor do I....but at least I know that...

Those disgruntled women were once little girls who were raped...and angry men were little boys who were once raped...some over long periods of time...

They are in EVERY religion and organization world wide...most don’t even come to the attention of our elders...

I Thess 4,,,is good advice,,,for both of us ..so let us both stop continting with this activism.

 

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to want to link me with Srecko and with this Mr Gardner whoever he is .  That was what i meant by grouping people together. 

So according to you if you speak of someone, make him known and give information of something that is to reveal and or profess support what does make it to you, Butler?

I posted an image a few response back, you were the one who posted about Mr. Gardener a few months ago the same Mr. Gardner who took part in disrupting the JW Church that Evo goes to.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It seems that you and I will always see things from different angles. So be it.  Have a good day.

Apparently so, but aside from that I strongly encourage you to take up what I said and adhere to Child Abuse Prevention sources, of which I posted to you before. For if I have to be honest, abuse and neglect of children is far greater in the UK, than it is to us here.

If your Father can teach you to do good, do the same to another who is lower than you, younger than you so he will be wise just as your Father has made you wise.

For if we do not take this stance, the next thing you know such ones will succumb to violence, they will succumb to other vile things and will become a potential victim to an abuser. Play your part the best way you can or only remain to be the very obstacle that is preventing those who do take such things seriously.

Srecko Sostar continued to dodge the very fact that I had used primarily Child Abuse and Neglect Services own information against him, as with Bible Principles - that he himself asked for, so I encourage do what he cannot do, read and understand what is being conveyed about better solutions.

After all that information that I linked is the real deal, I am just a centimeter away from posting actual PSAs that would pretty much defeat the deception Srecko poses in regards to child abuse prevention and his sly misinterpretation of my words.

If the Bible says we are to teach ourselves to be wisdom we do it, in turn we teach our children to be wise, just as both Mary and Joseph taught Jesus the very Law and practices of the Jews he was born under.

[Thinking]

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I no longer attend meetings due to the Child Abuse problem earthwide in the JW Org. I left the Org in January of this year. I could not be part of what I'd found about. I could not encourage other people in to such dangerous situations. 

If i had stayed I would have passed on information to other congregants, then I would have been disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. It was better for me to leave of my own choice and be free to use my own voice to tell anyone that would listen.

I could have stayed and become completely inactive, a Jehovah's bystander. But that would have silenced me, and by doing so, make me part of the problem. In my opinion if a person knows of danger but keeps quiet then they are almost as bad as the ones causing the danger. 

Many here say I am giving false alarms, but we each have to weigh up the situation and deal with it as we think best. 

 

I am very sorry to hear this John....I understand your reasoning but I would heavily ask you to consider the examples of Anna the prophetess and Simeon the Preist.....they lived amongst a lot of evil doings at the temple....yet they stayed and carried on with what they knew was required by them from Jehovah...

you are missing a lot of genuine love experienced among the brothers and sisters,,,having said that even brothers that give talks from the platform have stated that they are aware the love of the brotherhood Is cooling off.....but there is still a lot to be found...

John if you seen the apostles sitting at a table would you not be eager to join them...but would you turn your back on them if you seen Judas sitting there with full knowledge  about him...would you turn away from the good men for the sake of one bad man...

I wish you the best and I hope one day you can see where you learnt all about Jehovah’s kingdom and the wonderful hope that lies ahead...but you are being tested now...after all John....we serve Jehovah and not the watchtower.... but the watchtower/society is not perfect...we will always have errors and problems because ...well for many reasons.. but try for just a day...to look at the positives that Jehovah has fed us thru them....and be like Simeon and go about your business...