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At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?


Srecko Sostar

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Bravo SM ! What to expect from you SM, than your purposely attempt (stab) in redirecting responsibility of world biggest problems on individuals who are not suite to your Restoration normative (Butler and me and similar to us).

Indeed bravo. Perhaps next time you do a better job at not fooling yourself into a pit.

Because the thing is it is true, if you bothered to check the link it even tells you that you can be the solution to such problems and it explains how and what you can do as a parent and or guardian. And in regards to the Bible we are to apply wisdom and in turn we teach wisdom to our youth so they can know right from wrong, if they see a problem and or danger they, perhaps end a conflict just as Jesus has regarding his own followers.

I bring the both of you up because to both of you time and time again I state the same thing, I give factual information in this regard. Clearly unlike the both of you I can see with my own eyes that problems like this came due to our imperfection and of sin, to which you were on the opposite side of the fence for and even point blame on such ones like Abraham and his household.

For if we apply information it not only helps us, it helps others at the same time, we do not lose hope in what God will do when he rids the world of wickedness. Man cannot govern themselves and they continue to beat other men into Hades day in - day out. Everyday you see this and it effects all people, and those that brings back to this state will continue to do this also and teach their own children corruption for in turn will do the same to other good folk.

You cannot honestly tell me that you believe that a total purge of such imperfections can be accomplished by us of mankind. You are only kidding yourself, Srecko.

There is a reason as to why the Bible speaks of enduring in such a world filled with badness that pains each and every one of us.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Your repetitions about what was previous comments of mine are and over and over again quoting what is said by this or that person is quite numbing.  Using such anesthesia is not useful in my case. Apart from proving that you have a good memory, the constant repetition of what was and when was someone had said something, does not show anything positive about you. :))

I am glad, remember, Prophet Isaiah was like this to the leader of the Judah, who do you think God was siding with and what do you think was the response of the leaders?

Oh Really?

If that is the case, what is positive in my statement about teaching children about abuse, about sex, about strangers, about drugs, etc so that they do not succumb to any error by their own hand?

Moreover, I can teach someone and tell them that God isn't okay with physical sex change, but you yourself said the complete opposite? You mean to tell me that is positive? 

But it would seem educating children, as profess on my part, is seen as a negative, on your part, this is case, the very reason the question posed regarding abuse was never answer and I had to answer it for you.

That being said, know this, Isaiah who was a Prophet was saying the same thing over because he knew what was right, Judah's leaders on the other hand - not so much. If we are to represent one of these 2, clearly one can make the distinction.

Therefore I believe in educating our children, for anyone who says otherwise and make a mockery of it is only a means of negativity in the very change that the youth seek.

I suggest you not be a mentor to children until you can mentor yourself.

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I understand your points and you have expressed them very well. I will address each point you raised separately, but first I just want to mention a few general things which have perhaps shaped the per

Hey Brother Billie..your way out on this....it is undeniable if you watched the ARC...we as a people were found to have faulty policies...that’s a fact..we were forced to ammend them. Kids suffer

I think this point showed excellent insight. I wondered if this is what you meant from the start. The very context shows that the type of leadership in this case is more like the local elders rather t

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@JW Insider comment above and my comment above prove the point I'm making. The 'rulers' of JW Org and the Elders could do a lot more. But they are still trying to make the JW Org 'look clean' even when it isn't. 

Yes of course only God through Jesus Christ can bring in the New World and bring back perfection, but that is no excuse for others to stop trying to make things better now.  And I'm still not sure if you believe that only one organisation is the true way to God, or if a person can be 'saved' on their own faith. 

You could help by staying....and just being there for ones who are hurting...I’ve heard good solid brothers tell it like it is.....it’s refreshing and up building .....perhaps organization isnt the best word to use ..I dont know when that was introduced....Russell didn’t introduce it ....I think of us as a big worldwide congregation...just like a huge family with all its troubles and problems ..tears and joys and smiles...

i remember a brother once drew a line on the board...it started high and as the line travelled across the board it went into a downward spiral ....he said...that was the world.."he then asked us...how do you think Jehovah’s people are travelling.....he then drew a line..above the worlds declining line ....but it to went into a spiral downward...it remained above the worlds spiraling...but we still went down..just at a slower pace to that of the world.

it was a sobering thought for all of us.....don’t expect too much from any of us....it really boils down to just you and Jehovah....

 

 

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10 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

his is where you are twisting this, they never admit to being inspired prophets, and I am sure all the facts provided to you several times before thus proofs this point.

Wt. 1964/10/1 - "Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a PROPHETLIKE ORGANIZATION, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation."

Wt. 972/4/1 -  "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" 

How do you think the prophetic claims are made?  Who voices them?  Someone other than the GB?  Their "prophesy" is not inspired by Holy Spirit, but through demonic "inspiration".  

Review the record.  It shows nothing but failed prophesy.  

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

How do you think the prophetic claims are made?  Who voices them?  Someone other than the GB?  Their "prophesy" is not inspired by Holy Spirit, but through demonic "inspiration".  

Review the record.  It shows nothing but failed prophesy.  

To be fair .... this is the Achilles Heel of ALL shamans, witch doctors, snake oil salesmen,  priests, clergy and other assorted religious leaders.  

Yes, the WTB&TS has always been wrong about everything they have ever tried to prophesy .... but then again .... so has everybody else.

... nothing to see here, folks ... move along ... these are not the droids you want.

In the history of civilization ... there have NEVER been any exceptions ... and there aren't any now !

This sort of thing ALWAYS, without exception, occurs when the Leadership starts dressing well, sleep warm every night, start accumulating real estate, managing huge piles of free money, and self-appoint themselves as the Laodicean Messengers of God.

If prophesy was easy ... In the early 1970's, I might have bought stock in Apple Computer or the Bubba Gump Shrimp Company.

..... Or I would have won the recent 1.68 billion dollar Lottery.

 

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11 hours ago, Anna said:

God's spirit   motivating us

Hi!

This sound like new way of expression, some kind of introducing new, different way of talking about same issue by GB.

Instead "we are inspirited" he say "we are motivated".

 

Tomorrow, perhaps we will hear not only this "we are not inspired", but also

" we are not motivated"  (we are currently indisposed)

:))))

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3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

the WTB&TS has always been wrong about everything they have ever tried to prophesy

This statement, and indeed the thread itself, seems to depend on the rather narrow view that prophecy is solely limited to fortelling future events, in other words, history written in advance.

This is an unecessary limitation, as the word in a biblical context refers to an inspired message as a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come.

Paul's words on prophecy make clear that "the one who prophesies builds up and encourages and consoles men by his speech." 1Cor.14:3. He does not say "foretells future events".

Adam served as God's initial "prophet" in that he would have made known Jehovah's requirements to Eve   He did not remain faithful to Jehovah. Others "prophesied" later, such as Lamech, and Noah. Abraham, the first one referred to as a "prophet" is not noted for foretelling the future specifically, although the promise of the "seed" is recorded as having been spoken to him.

Whilst it is clear then, that the term "prophet" refers to a specific role for a human, the specific fortelling of events is not intrinsic. Neither is it so that every utterance from a prophet, whether written, spoken, or mimed, (as in the case of Ezekiel), would be moved by God's spirit or "inspired", or, indeed, could not be subject to error.

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness" 2Tim.3:16. This message alone is a prophecy in itself. The commission of Jesus at Matt.28:18-20 in itself is an appointment of all true Christians to a prophet-like role with regard to all nations , and Jehovah will hold all truly dedicated servants accountable on that.

Anointed Christians serve in a "prophet-like" role in their commission outlined by Peter at 1Peter 2:9. Their governing body serves similarly, Matt.24:45-47. But in that role, it is not incumbent that any utter what could be described as "inspired utterences", or that ANY of their "forecasts" or predictions on world events should specifically come true in all detail. Even those that do would not evidence divine "inspiration".

All that is necessary is for them to proclaim Jehovah's inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come, as found in "All Scripture", and to hold faithfully to it as far as humanly possible, admitting mistakes, adjusting and correcting error when found. And as in the past, they answer to Jehovah and not to men in the faithful discharge of their responsibilities.

One thing for sure is that "the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets" Amos 3:7. So it is in our interests to listen to those who serve as Jehovah's prophets, (in the correct understanding of the term).

I like the observation of Richard Feynman on this: " We never are definitely right, we can only be sure we are wrong." But I think this statement needs a little modification in the words of Jesus at Matt.11:19: "All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works." ?

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Outta Here:

You have me at a disadvantage when you quote one of my Heroes, Richard Feynman ... however, your statement: .......

2 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Paul's words on prophecy make clear that "the one who prophesies builds up and encourages and consoles men by his speech." 1Cor.14:3. He does not say "foretells future events".

....... which I think misses the point, entirely.

Think of how up-building and encouraging , and faith building it WOULD have been if the Society's prediction of Armageddon had ACTUALLY occurred in 1975, as by both commission, and omission, we were led to believe.

Think of how faith destroying in the credibility of the JW Earthly leadership it has been that it was all a scam to keep the exhausted troops marching.

In many cases, it actually destroyed faith in Jehovah God and his Christ.

I agree with what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:3.

I disagree with the "spin" you put on it.

To me, it's like saying about the scripture "... After I leave, wolves will enter in among the flock ...."  (paraphrased) to say that "All Dogs go to Heaven" .... because after all, isn't a wolf a kind of a dog?

IN THE CONTEXT of this discussion, and what Paul actually meant he did NOT say that encouraging word of consolation were prophesy.

Quite the OPPOSITE.  He was saying that prophesy (presumably from a true prophet)  were encouraging words of consolation !

THERE IS A VERY REAL DIFFERENCE!

You are stretching an idea past the breaking point, to try and support your AGENDA.

.... been there .... done that.

For which I am deeply ashamed, and would have been deeply ashamed to relate to Richard Feynman, who would have considered me a complete fool ... which I was.

 

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14 hours ago, Anna said:

I am sorry, there was no one announced at our hall for such a long time so I don't know how exactly the announcement is made anymore. I can assure you though it will be known that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses because you do not agree with the organization. I remember someone was announced years ago, and everyone knew it was because he had differing views, and not because he had committed immorality or something like that.

Yes, it is best we agree to differ. I am just trying to be fair. I do not think everything they say is right, but I do believe we have the core important things right. The apostles in the first century also didn't have things right and had to change and adjust some things.  We are a work in progress, and this will always be the case as long as we are imperfect.

By the way I noticed in my previous reply that the quote from Br. Jackson got messed up and some things were missing, so I went and  put the missing bits back. But so that you don't have to go looking for it I will repost it here:

Q. By what mechanism would you understand God's spirit to  direct your decisions?

Br. Jackson:   Well, what I mean by that is, by prayer and using our constitution, God's word, we would go through the scriptures and see if there was any biblical principle at all that would influence our decision - and it could be that in our initial discussions there was something that maybe we were missing and then in another discussion that would come to light.  So we would view that as God's spirit   motivating us because we believe the Bible is God's word and came by means of holy spirit.

 

 

Brother Jackson said a lot of things, including basically admitting that the GB are not the only spokesman God is using. 

Governing Body Unwittingly Condemned

Mr. Stewart then asked pointedly if the Governing Body views itself as Jehovah’s spokespeople on earth.

Brother Jackson does not vacillate this time, but states, “That, I think, would seem to be quite presumptuous, to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.”

With those words, Brother Jackson is unwittingly labeling the Governing Body as presumptuous. Here is the official position of the Governing Body with regards to its role before God. [Italics added]

“Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his channel of communication.” (w03 3/15 p. 27 ‘The Lips of Truth Will Endure Forever’)

“That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end.” (w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 2 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?”)

Theocratic appointments come from Jehovah through his Son and God’s visible earthly channel, “the faithful and discreet slave” and its Governing Body.” (w01 1/15 p. 16 par. 19 Overseers and Ministerial Servants Theocratically Appointed)

However that 'faithful slave' and the GB are one and the same now, as the rest of the Anointed are pushed to one side.

So there you have it. As I've said before the scripture at Luke 14 v 11 

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

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After GB Geoffrey Jackson sayin' that, under oath to the Australian Royal Commission (ARC), which I watched in real time as it happened, I had two reactions.

1.) DUH!, and

2.) I betcha he gets a whippin' when HE gets back to New York !

GB Bro. Jackson and GB Helper do Theology .mp4

Which just goes to show you ..... you can make a GOOD LIVING ( If you can keep from throwing up ...) by getting your ears tickled by someone else.

 

 

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@Anna Quote am sorry, there was no one announced at our hall for such a long time so I don't know how exactly the announcement is made anymore. I can assure you though it will be known that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses because you do not agree with the organization. I remember someone was announced years ago, and everyone knew it was because he had differing views, and not because he had committed immorality or something like that. (End quote.)

I was wise enough to tell a few brothers what i was about to do, so at least they would know the truth. I gave only one of them the reason, but told others i was 'resigning'. However here is the stupidity of things shunning causes :- 

A man, a JW that i had helped many times as he was over 80 years old, though he is quite physically active.  Whilst i was still a brother i sold him a motorised bicycle. We had an agreement that if he decide he didn't really want it, that i would buy it back from him. 

A long time had passed since this business agreement. Then suddenly my wife has a text message on her mobile phone (cell phone to you guys i think). This being after i left the Org. The message is from this man, asking her to talk to me about me buying back this motorised bicycle. 

Two points here : -

1. The man should never have been given my wife's personal phone number, so whoever gave him the number was doing wrong.

2. It was a business agreement between the man and myself, not involving my wife. And my wife knew nothing about it and was not interested in getting involved in it. 

My wife gave me the information after getting over the shock of receiving the message, and I could see she was genuinely upset by him having her number. 

I emailed him quite politely telling him how my wife and i felt about it. I also agreed that if he contact me personally I would buy the item back from him.

Now, the questions must be, Why was he too frightened to contact me directly first time ? And, why has he not replied to my email ?

I know the answers of course.   He is frightened of being told off by the Elders of the congregation, for contacting me. 

I know this man well enough to know he is not frightened of me personally. And i know that we once had a really good friendship. It proves my point, that people are frightened of the Elders. 

There is a second case proving the same thing, but i will make it brief.

One of the brothers i told that I was resigning, visited me the Wednesday evening before the Thursday announcement. He promised me he would call back in 6 months time to see how i was doing. He has not been near my house since that Wednesday evening. Why ? Well once again it just proves my point, but in his case he has also proved himself a liar. He has broken his word. All because of fear of men, the Elders.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Anointed Christians serve in a "prophet-like" role in their commission outlined by Peter at 1Peter 2:9. Their governing body serves similarly, Matt.24:45-47. But in that role, it is not incumbent that any utter what could be described as "inspired utterences", or that ANY of their "forecasts" or predictions on world events should specifically come true in all detail. Even those that do would not evidence divine "inspiration".

I believe you should read further in Matt 24...to Matt 24:48-51

He said, “Listen to my words: When there are prophets of the Lord among you, I make myself known to them in visions or speak to them in dreams.”  Num 12:6

“‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.”  Acts 2:17,18
 

He said to me, “Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak with you.” As he spoke to me, the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and I listened to the one who was speaking to me. He said to me, “Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to the rebellious pagans who have rebelled against me. The Israelites and their ancestors have transgressed against me to this day.  Ezek 2:1-3 

Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of IsraelAs you go, proclaim: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’  Matt 10:6,7 

“Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”  Rev 11:1-3

“The blessings of Jehovah God are upon you because of his loving-kindness to his beloved anointed remnant. Jehovah God dwells with you because his anointed are his visible templew56 11/15 pp. 696-702     

John 2:18-21;  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:4-10; Eph 2:20-22  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2%3A18-21%3B +1+Cor+3%3A16%2C17%3B+1+Pet+2%3A4-10%3B+Eph+2%3A20-22&version=CSB

Spiritual Israel are the anointed, the Temple.   Who are the spiritual “Gentiles” “treading” the temple? 

“Representing the royal priesthood (anointed)  are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions.  

Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders! Their record of faithful service, often over many decades, inspires our trust. 

Loyally Submit to Godly Authority” wt 02/8/1 pp. 9-14

 “My hand will oppose the prophets who see false visions and speak deceptive divinations. They won’t be included with the council of my people, nor will they be entered into the registry of Israel’s house or enter Israel’s land. Then you’ll know that I am the Lord God”  Eze 13:9

(Rev 7:4)

 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”  Rev 11:3 

“The descendants are obstinate and hardhearted. I am sending you to them, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says.’ Whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious housethey will know that a prophet has been among them. Eze 2:1-5 

So when they persecute you in one city, flee to another. I can guarantee this truth: Before you have gone through every city in Israel, the Son of Man will come.   Matt 10:23 

Rev 21:8 - But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 Big letters for emphasis.  

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