At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"?

[Vic Vomidog]

10 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, such ones need to wake up, but that therapeutic pillow is just too good for them and they remain asleep.

Any mention of pillows is a sore subject with me. Many of my friends had to go naked for the sake of these.

 

7 hours ago, Anna said:

If a letter is directly addressed to the GB, then I am assuming that if this letter is not something ridiculous, then it will get passed onto the relevant department. 

Whenever the office staff thought a letter was from a birdbrain they handed it to me. I never got to do anything else. That’s why I left.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

What is? publicising all those personal details you list in a case where the judgement is mistaken?

  14 hours ago, Outta Here said:

what about mistaken judgements?

My comment:  that is terrible bad!

 

Conclusion:

mistaken judgements are terrible bad

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, of course they have office staff that open the mail. And as any office staff they will filter letters according to relevance. If a letter is directly addressed to the GB, then I am assuming that if this letter is not something ridiculous, then it will get passed onto the relevant department. I think @JW Insider will know better than me. As far as I am aware, for example, if it is a doctrinal issue, then this would be passed onto and handled by the writing department. If it is something worth considering, then it would become part of the GB agenda for the weekly meeting. If it is something that the writing department can answer, then you would most likely get an answer from that department. 

If it were that good and that easy i would think the GB would get hundreds of letters a week  . I actually don't think a letter would get past the first 'hurdle'. Each of us to our opinions of course, but I'm going by the response I got from London Bethal, and from the lack of response I got from the letter I wrote to the BODY OF ELDERS at Honiton Congregation (my ex KH). That letter was only seen by two of the Elders it seems and one of them threatened to disfellowship me. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So show me the evidence of making claim to inspired prophets whereas the information present outweighs the falsehood of such claims.

Most importantly, I want you so show me the claim you made against me about supporting Islam when I merely explained their view to you, not once, but several times.

Show me as to where the JWs are of demonic influence.

Also I want you to show me prove of God's approval, as you so claim before.

The lot of you didn't even know the difference of an inspired prophet and who who is not, so what more can you show me than snippets from a book whereas in the same paragraph is self-refutes the claim you have made?

If anyone knows the history. Jesus entrusted the disciples to continue on in his behalf, of which the disciples have done so, as with the churches, the early Christians and Paul. Christians can and will make mistakes but it does not defeat the purpose of the message they will bring, even some mistakes made by the actions of their own hand they make up for it for they are human, they are imperfect and they have perhaps more sense to even realize that. This was the case with Eusebius who knew the errors of some folk and corrected them, especially when he exposed those who take up things that is accursed, defending a verse of which all of us know today to which the mainstream has misinterpreted.

This is the same case with Christians today when it comes to such, for ever man and woman can stumble, but it does not stop them from standing back up.

Because when Jesus formed the church, the disciples did what they had to do to maintain peace in the church, in Paul's case, he had the ability to bind and loosen, just as the others have, to remove what is seen as bad in the church, mainly when it came to unrepentant ones, of which we see an example of such in the Bible.

As Christians we are to preach to all people, help them learn what the gospel actually is so that they too can learn, so that they too can understand why Jesus is the Head of the Church, and why God is the head of the Christ and so forth, for if people are not taught these things it will lead to outlandish practices and doctrines that has no origin within the church whatsoever.

And if one does not adhere to the Great Commission it is an utter disservice to the one who gave the command, for a Christian to not adhere such a command how can he say he follow the Christ? He or she is only kidding themselves if they are as such.

For there is a distinction between a Christian who is True and a Christian who is False and it shows who is doing things accordingly and who is not.

Insulting? How would I be insulting God when the one who agree with things God sent Satan to do his bidding? 

I am not insulting God whatsoever because I am speaking the truth in this matter. I am not someone such as yourself who lives in a box not realizing the gravity of the situation of what the world is. I do anything and everything for the truth of the Scriptures and of God and unlike you I will not stoop to the lowest level and make claim I am a Christian and yet show the true colors which will result in people to profess question.

Therefore, I want you to prove yourself claim because I can easily prove how you attempt to violate Scripture by means of thinking something of today's language reflect the language of Old. That is if you protest to go there, I am able and willing.

That being said I defended God's order, the ones you have agreed with were against it. So you tell me who is insulting God if you want to play this game of yours in this way.

Then show me as to where they claimed to be inspired prophets and infallible. If I speak the truth about the difference of a prophet inspired and not inspired, they have at it then.

Tell me exactly as to when and where they made this claim otherwise you remain in deceit of your own design and of those who profess it.

The JWs themselves is a denomination, a Christian faith, and seeing that they hold true to their Restorationist roots, they have religious leaders, their church has roles as is not to different from those who does anything and everything to be like the early church. They understand that God isn't a Triune Being, they understand the importance of the Great Commission of which the latter has shown to be against in an older debate. They understand that the world is indeed wicked in a sense to the price of which we pay by the hands of our first parents who committed sin and disobeyed God and they understand, like all persons in the world, be it religious or not, they such things cannot be resolved by humans hands, but only of God.

something of which you remain to be shrouded by that simply fact. You cannot cleanse an entire faith because you do not know who goes in and out of the faith. You cannot cleanse the world of it's imperfection because man is unable to do such a task by their own hand let alone any government on the face of this earth.

for you to remain ignorant to this face further proves you are among those who do not take into account what is taking place and perhaps, like Kairos, be easily swept by their words and be nothing more than a follower of them, one of the very reasons I hold a strong disdain for Interfaith because I did the research and I observed, I know who is the real threat here, clearly you do not.

Idea? Have you checked the news recently? Perhaps the Security Guard who was a hero but ended up being shot and the aftermath of the action? Did you really miss such things? Do you even pay attention and or vigilant of what is going on?

When it comes to an action done by someone of a race, a faith, a background and or upbringing, the actions of the sole individual makes puts people in the mentality of seeing all persons of that following the same. Examples would be Muslims, and seeing you are in the UK this should come as no surprise to you because it happens and you know it happens, granted you posted articles that even have links to such tragic stories.

If someone does something, someone of that faith,. their whole faith and it's people are demonized, blamed, insulted they are spoken of as being a terror group, this takes place in public spaces and even schools and it goes on, it goes for people of racial backgrounds as well whereas if someone of a race is killed by someone who is not of that race, a whole racial group is to blame for the actions of one person, it does not define everyone as the same for the actions of a single man. This mentality is what is poisoning our society and some of us are woke enough to see that. But clearly you thinking it is my idea further proves your ignorance.

That being said, actions committed by a killer, a pedophile, a con-man does not define everyone. Granted it is not unknown to people that religious institutions have some who commit to pedophilia, and it is no surprise it happens in the churches of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is absurd and foolish to attest to the very idea that because of the actions of a man or a few that thousands of others should be called as such on the streets for an action they had no hand in.

Again, the case with the Church disruption done by Mr. Gardner and friends, they refereed to the JWs who had no idea what was going on, you can see the fear in their faces, and they insulted, even shamed, when they did no wrong to no one.

If you have people backing away from the actions done by such ones, that it on itself is a problem because last I checked, when I made mention of this months ago you were nowhere to be found, so do not act like you know the situation when you have no idea of what went down it was more than that and such ones made more enemies than friends/allies.

I told you before, the Jehovah's Witnesses are not immune to those who commit pedophilia and or abuse children, no one is as is with ALL institutions. That actions of such ones even among JWs who do that does not define the masses, does it define the JWs on this forum? No. Does it define those who had their churches raided? No. Does it define the Russian JWs? No. If one JW does the cirm he will do the timer, case and point, but his actions does not define all JWs around the globe, even the ones here, it the onw who is branded as a criminal does not reflect them also.

Problems like this will continue to happen because pedophilia is widespread and it has started to happen in restaurants also. To the Unitarians is his not unknown either for even Unitarians are found out to be pedophilia, but despite this, it does not define all of them, the same with Muslims and others, even Jews, of which they had a shooting take placer weeks ago for them in the US. Another situation where a little girl was not just abused but she was violently molested in a school in the US, does it define all Americans because of the actions of this man? No. It is things like that you have to realize because clearly you speak of showing care as did before but you present another face when it comes to claim. In my case, I am for education and teachings young ones to do what is right, so they themselves do not become a target and I am happy of what I accomplished in this domain because I know what the CAP is doing actually works.

That being said, Child Prevention Services even gave examples of trying to minimize the situation and or recognize them, even offering help and solutions to which you your yourself to be in opposition of (which is the same case with ARC and its solutions), as is evident at every instance of which I presented even pulled information from those sources to present to you and others. So you tell me, you think Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention is a joke or not, and how is it you are helping the cause when such things are seen as lacking on your part?

No one can stop pedophilia, we can only do our best to minimize the issue wherever it is, the same way that we cannot stop famine or war 100%, this we cannot stop completely for it is indeed earth wide and spreading and some even are fighting to defend pedophilia as if it is some special sexual orientation. The best I can do is educate our children and others adults, perhaps you yourself should be doing the same thing, keeping our youth able and ready so they can teach others. You should try it sometime.

I already explain after I did the research ever since the ARC thread.

Perhaps correct yourself before you speak. They have a use for the ruling and it is not unknown to anyone of what that is. Even NBC, the same MSM organization do not have all the facts to the ruling but the actual information of where I pulled it from speaks the truth in this matter.

Child abuse is everywhere it is not secluded to solely Jehovah's Witnesses. You are in the UK, you should be aware of grooming gangs but the fact you are unaware of such things unless I brought it up further proves your stance and your views.

The shunning is actually biblical but only cuts church ties. This has been proven true with Biblical Facts, as with regarding JWs, even former members make the same claim.

Understand as to why that command is entrusted,but you not knowing that further proves where you lack in spiritual wisdom.

Stupid idea? It is no idea, it is an actual mentality, to some extent, a mob mentality.

In the US you do realize why police officers are attack on occasion sometimes? Because people prompt the mentality to blame all police officers for the actions of a single officer on the other side of the US or elsewhere. If a police officer commits murder, even a racist one, if they rape, if they extort, if they pin the blame or planet drugs on someone, etc. This will cause people to speak and assume that because of that lone police officer, it defines all of them. Which is not something and or even a path we should follow.

Even to you guys in the UK, should someone do something it does not define you, or the rest of the people in your vicinity. Should one commit a crazy crime, a knife or acid attack which is common in the UK and such was done out of hate - does it define you? No. How will others define you? They will equate to you as the culprit, like him who did the crime, they will speak slander of you and a list of others things we you know yourself and your family knows you are not that guy, but others who are very angry with the criminal, they will spare no stone to protest that you are the villain.

This mentality is a gross one, we such a thing should not be passed on to our children.

It all goes back to Evo's question of which you said he was trying to trick you. He had a good reason saying that.

That is sheer ignorance. With what has gone down throughout the years and you attest such holds no idea when the mentality is there in this sense? Srecko may be under a rock on some things, but you show yourself to be perhaps lost in space. First, not all JWs are wicked, and even the bad ones do not define all the rest, even the ones on this forum, they do not even define Kathgar that would have ended up as a target for ISIS a while back.

And Here is where you contradict yourself. You do not assume things of people nor do you judge, and yet you are found out to say the following: [And it is because of the GB's rules and the Elders acting as puppets] Any JW here is a puppet? As far as I am concern no one is a puppet here, thus making your insult towards them as weak as your claim of being supporting Islam when I merely explained it to you.

Pedophilia had been around for a long time and it has infiltrated all intuitions, even in Bible times regarding Baal Worshipers who were cursing God's people although not mention, such ones were indeed young. They do not allow it to happen because they to do their best, you'd be surprise as to some of them who actually took the advice of Child Abuse Prevention Services and applied it by educating themselves and others, which is the case with an African JW I spoke of before.

You need to wake yourself up because this is reality, not a dream, and such of what is said is no idea when it takes place all over the place, all over the world, you have examples of that with the Jews and Samaritans even in Bible times, but not all Jews (even in Jesus' case and those connected to him) are the same, not all Samaritans are the same.

Meditate on this quote, Butler and do the research, read whatever news you adhere to, because you show yourself in critical need of it.

“Don't let the actions of a few determine the way you feel about an entire group. Remember, not all German's were Nazis.”

Erin Gruwell

That begin said, check thyself before you wreckth thyself because thing the so called idea is stupid, it shows you fail to see what is going around you in the world, let alone your own country, as of which I made mention with London already, as did others.

I leave you with this. If Child Abuse is that much of a concern for you, why not adhere to what child prevention services who are instructing people to do, by means of teaching, even PSA and videos, helping people to help prevent someone else from being a victim or the one who preys on victims; passing on teachings to someone younger to help lessen abuse? If it can help others, it can help you even teach you so that anyone who sees you as a guardian can also be helped Instead of attacking JWs on the daily simply speak them calmly and even educate them in his sense, come to them as they are a blood brother/sister of yours and teach them if need be, it does not have to be JW only, you have Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc - at least this is where you can come to common round with such folks outside debate and discussion. After all, it is far worse in the UK than it is here in the US. Do yourself a favor and do what I do, educate them

 

 

I read part of this lot but I give up on you SM.  You talk too much but say very little in real terms, You go over and over the same stuff. 

Not all Germans were Nazis. No but it took most of Germany to do what they did in WW2.  It wasn't just one or two of then was it ? 

The problems in the JW org start at the top with the GB, and then filter down via the  levels of 'authority' to the Elders. 

The Elders act on the orders of the GB. It's almost a dictatorship. But you SM have no real idea..........................

[Space Merchant]

14 hours ago, Vic Vomidog said:

Any mention of pillows is a sore subject with me. Many of my friends had to go naked for the sake of these.

The thing is people are sleeping on things as if it does not exist. Famine, Racism, Rape Culture, Far-Left/Right nonsense, people being pushed out of homes as a means of getting people to get surveillance homes and a list of other things.

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I read part of this lot but I give up on you SM.  You talk too much but say very little in real terms, You go over and over the same stuff. 

I do not care about real terms? You have stated yourself such things is of an idea as if it does not exist, you show yourself to be a means to the problem to think of such in this way, which is the same case with those who profess the same attitude as you do, and thus problem ensues. People who are concern and caring take into account of any such persons with this based minded mentality, some to an extent, a mob mentality.

Same stuff? Please. One can count up the measure of what you profess by your own hand which surpasses even mine, unlike you, I am being far more realistic and understanding of things - you however, are not, thus being alien to the things taking place around you, even within your area.

I asked you for several things (only once in the previous response of which clearly you have dodged), some of which you made the claim, I have not, reasons why I told you to show me.

And I asked or the following:

Quote

• So show me the evidence of making claim to inspired prophets whereas the information present outweighs the falsehood of such claims.
• Most importantly, I want you so show me the claim you made against me about supporting Islam when I merely explained their view to you, not once, but several times.
• Show me as to where the JWs are of demonic influence.
• Also I want you to show me prove of God's approval, as you so claim before.

• I asked you to show me evidence to which you seem to consider me incorrect in hence your acceptiveness with the others, you have not brought up anything being asked of you let alone when the others have been asked, they brought nothing themselves, thus resulting in the incorrection being done on those who profess and agree with something that is false. Therefore the truth has been made known. Such ones never claimed to be inspired prophets or infallible.
• You made claim I am supporting Islam when I merely explained Islam to you and their beliefs even attested to showing the misconceptions to which the latter had went dead silence, clearly explaining something and correcting someone on Islam does not show as support. I asked you to show me as to where am supporting Islam of which it is unfounded, thus making you a lair in ever sense for he word. Nest time make sure you have the proof before you say something.
• The next claim is that JWs have a demonic influence, as brought up by Witness and it is of something agreeable in the eyes who side with him. Since none have yet to show me any of this claim of demonic influence, it makes the latter a lair because such a thing is unfounded, moreover, when I was in discussion with him, you had your say hence why the question is being asked of you, to which it is seen as unfounded.
• You yourself made claim that you seem to know of whom God approves or not (thus putting you in a position one would say thinking for God). This alone shrouds you in deception in every sense.

When someone makes claim they cannot prove and resort to a response such as yours, then there is no resolve on that person's part, after all, you asked for it and yet you could not even deliver. It is one thing to be confused about something, but it is another to express ignorance and doing so knowingly and or be a yes-man to conspiracy and or false information.

You put yourself in the same boat as the Trinitarian who tried to make claims in regard of Christian history only for it to not go well with him in the end where he used John 8:44 on his self, thus engineering his own failure.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Not all Germans were Nazis. No but it took most of Germany to do what they did in WW2.  It wasn't just one or two of then was it ? 

The fact you do not understand the gravity of this quote shows how blind you truly are, Mr. Butler and the irony here is I used that quote to make a point, of which you have proven as predicted.

Most of German? No. You do realize how the Nazi Regime was with not just its captive, but of their own who was against them, an example would be the German Resistance against the Nazis and Hitler. The German Resistance, although German and of Germany were separate from the Nazis and the actions of the Nazis do not define the German Resistance.

The Secret State Police otherwise known as The Gestapo and the Security Service (SD) suppressed the open criticism of the regime professed by Nazi opposers, hence the German opposition to the Nazi state and the regimentation of society. These Germans were not for the Nazis, nor were they for Hitler and not allow of them hated the primary targets of the Nazis - The Jews.

The opposition against the Nazi was also even among their own faction whereas people started to go against the Regime itself, even Hitler, an example would be Wilhelm Canaris.

Of course it was not one, two, or perhaps several hundreds, but not all of Germany was for the Nazis, some opposed, some were against, for these individuals who were in opposition to the Nazis are not defined as Nazis. and yet people to day will insult a random German, or a German-American and calling them Nazis when they and or their household do not have anything to do with Nazis whatsoever.

This mentality existence in every aspect: Race, Religion, even Sex whereas you have such ones like Feminist who will do anything and everything to destroy your life if they had the chance.

That being said, do not ever mistake something that is true to be an idea when the mentality exists.

Learn the history, it may benefit you, Butler.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The problems in the JW org start at the top with the GB, and then filter down via the  levels of 'authority' to the Elders.

And? Religious leaders regardless of what they do or say does not define men, women and children of that faith. Although their practices are the same, any of those religious leaders does not define a JW who is in the Virgin Islands, perhaps another in Africa, maybe one in Japan or the be it the US or UK, each and everyone one of them are different.

For if an action is taken by a church elder, him being exposed to be someone vile and one who did a crime, it does not define others of that church, of that faith, the very point I make time and time again whereas you have before defined them instantly by means of your own experience in your own JW church, for such a thinking professed by you or the masses is absurd and even outside of that it leads to other actions such as vengeful attacks and or hate crime if it escalates.

You also speak of cleansing, something that is deemed nigh impossible because you have amount 7.53 billion+ people in the world, any one of them can become a JW by means of evangelicalism, you do not know their true intent, for a guy who joins them exactly wants betterment in his life and to understand who God is while another guy who joins them only to commit to gang stalk women, another may join them to seek children - they would not know unless it is too late, let alone not realizing any signs professed by someone.

Put yourself in a position of a religious leader, what would you do when you do not know the intent of perhaps 30 people in a small church you built, perhaps 100 or more, maybe 18,000. You would not be able to cleanse anything when you do not know the intent and or history of someone who chooses to go to your church and even outside of the church, the problem is far greater than you realize. You remove one, more will come, each with a ill unique intent of their own to do bad to commit problems and or harm to members of your church, the culprit could even be a young child and you not even know.

That being said, all men are imperfect, problems that irks you cannot be down away totally by the hands of man, the very reason I stated only God can clear up such a thing 100%, something of which Srecko tends to mock because he remains ignorance that all men are imperfect.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Elders act on the orders of the GB. It's almost a dictatorship. But you SM have no real idea..........................

Dictatorship? If that is the case you should make yourself an Anti-Pauline and tear out pages from your own Bible, see how well you fair with True Christians once you do this.

Jesus built the church and it has been structured for Orderly Worship, in as much professed by Apostle Paul when he spoke of Creation, granted, as seen in the Bible his notion of such when referring to the First man - Adam, and the First Woman - Eve. If the church does what it needed to up-build it's people, even use its abilities to reinstate, expel, purify, etc that isn't dictatorship, and all churches do this however the only church who has done it the right way for so long was the apostolic church in which only a few follow, it is a problem if the church waters down what the apostolic church has done and or abandons it totally. I suggest you learn about the church of which Jesus build a long time ago and learn what the Apostolic Church is because this is pure ignorance by you on your own part. Another factor is Restoration Christians are strict, even Bible strict but they are not dictatorial and heir teachings and ruling comes from that of the Bible, as with all True Christians who understands this also.

You stated last time religious leadership was something of Pharisees, which came to bite you in the end when such was refuted and you had been corrected thoroughly - therefore I do have an idea because I understand the Theological Christology of a majority of Anti-Trinitarianic groups.

If I had no idea, then why is it I corrected you on the early church before whereas you claimed religious leadership is a Tradition of Men?

That being said, as followers of the Christ, people did follow the disciple, Paul even, people did follow the other religious leaders of that time because their spiritual goal remains the same and is aligned with the church, which is the same case with some of us today. For the only head of the church is the Christ, and God is above him, regardless of who the religious leader is.

I need not link the apostolic church link again because I gave you the link before. God knows if you read it or not, but the truth has been spoken in this regard.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.

Luke 9 v 50.

Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Luke 11 v23

@Space Merchant Regarding Islam. Are you just explaining about them or do you agree with them ?

Because Jesus made is quite clear in the above scriptures that there is no middle ground. 

As for you keep asking ME about the inspired or uninspired prophets. I had not even mentioned such. That is why I say you keep linking me to other people. Others may have said it, but i didn't.

The next claim is that JWs have a demonic influence, as brought up by Witness. so why blame me ? 

Once again you link me to someone else. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Space Merchant Quote : I do not care about real terms? You have stated yourself such things is of an idea as if it does not exist, you show yourself to be a means to the problem to think of such in this way, which is the same case with those who profess the same attitude as you do, and thus problem ensues. People who are concern and caring take into account of any such persons with this based minded mentality, some to an extent, a mob mentality.

So, by making a problem known you say i am causing a problem ? 

If a house was on fire and i made it known, would you then say I caused the fire ? 

The JW Org is a danger to young children and i will continue to make that known. And I'm proud that I make it known too.

The GB, as you have said, are not inspired, and it would seem they are not even guided by Holy Spirit either. 

Remember, by their works you will know them. I am judging the GB by their works. 

What would be the point of that scripture if it was not for us to judge them ?  Matthew 7 v 15 through 23.

¹⁵  “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. ¹⁶  By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? ¹⁷  Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. ¹⁸  A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. ¹⁹  Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰  Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.²¹  “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.²²  Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ ²³  And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew* you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

I think Jesus made it clear enough here.  

[Equivocation]

@JOHN BUTLER He is linking you with them because your reaction to their comments means you agree with them, not to mention you are mentioning him when you agree with those who made the claim so seeing that the both of you are in a debate, that's a strike on you because if one goes back some pages they can see you agreed with the other guy witness or Frida. 

I don't know about the Islam thing but he even linked the thread where he explained the belief of Muslims to you, the Islam faith and he stamped out the misconceptions. Nothing there shows he is supporting Islam, but rather, explaining it, even going as far as to say we must preach to them about the Bible. You yourself even agreed with him which is odd because recently you said he is supporting Islam when what you said turned out to be false. 

Buddy, I like debates as much as the next guy but if you say something you have to back it up with proof. If I were you I'd do some edits because it may save you some time and the embarrassment. Not every day a a young guy gives advise to an adult but this one fits the bill. 

[Equivocation]

@Space Merchant Who is Katgar?

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.

Luke 9 v 50.

Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Luke 11 v23

Good, so when there is a conclusion we know who is in the correct.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Regarding Islam. Are you just explaining about them or do you agree with them ?

I merely explained them hence the the thread I linked. If I agreed with them why in the world would I attest to the idea of preaching to them by means of going on their level due to a common interest in God. Like us, they are seeking, so it does not stop a Christian to preach the gospel to Muslims who may or may not understand the Bible and teach them the Bible, let alone putting out some misconceptions they have of Christians due to Trinitarianism. The hypocrisy on your part, Mr. Butler, is the fact you agreed with me on this notion when I explained their views to you without resorting to accepting conspiracy and falsehood as you have, and I was brief about it also - as seen in this thread, of which I will link again, of which you are ignoring in my previous response:

And I made it clear, I do not adhere to false information and or conspiracy.

So according to your claim Mr. Butler

On 11/15/2018 at 11:19 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to be 'playing it safe' by being a Unitarian and also supporting the JW's. You also seem to support other religions, even Islam. 

Do you or do you not have any substantial proof I am supporting Islam when I simply explained their belief to you? Perhaps if I explained what convict is, in your eyes you see that an explanation of something or someone is seen as supporting.

That being said, I ask you something very simple of which you seem to be evading - Show me as to where I am supporting Islam (in fact show everyone since you made claim to this). If you cannot, you have just exposed yourself to be a lair in this sense and that this claim remains absurdly unfounded in the greatest sense.

anyone who studies religion does will speak what is true and what is false about someone's faith, they will also take up knowledge so they themselves can see what is actually accursed. The statement I made to you about the evident ignorance on your part in regards to Theological studies stand as true as the blue seas of the earth.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Because Jesus made is quite clear in the above scriptures that there is no middle ground.

Indeed there is no middle ground. There is no middle ground in what is True and what is False.

So according to your own statement, do you have the truth in regards to information that I am supporting Islam? So far I have only explained it, even to some degree on here I made mention of Sunnis and Shias and nothing in this regard shows I am supporting Islam, merely explaining something and or making a point in something.

So, to everyone here, to me - Do you have proof to your claim? After all, we are attesting to the truth - yes?

I, and I am sure others too, also want to know how on earth you can discern who has God's approval and who does not? I find this fascinating because you are clearly an imperfect man who cannot think for God when the bible says the opposite, let alone you are not above and or equal to God, for if it is of anyone concern, we are like spectacles of dust compared to the the Most High, El Shaddai, Yahweh.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The next claim is that JWs have a demonic influence, as brought up by Witness. so why blame me ? 

No one is blaming you. Pointing out the fact that you were agreed with Witness by the very word he professed, not only you shown your reaction to what he had to say despite not taking into account what he claims is false, you also spared no time but to even congratulate him on his response, when you yourself

On 11/14/2018 at 7:04 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Fantastic comment. But SM won't like it ofcourse  

And agreed with him, not once, but twice in this sense, therefore, if you agree with someone on something, it should not stop you from answering a question that resonates with what you are acceptive of.

Moreover, of course I will not agree with Witness, especially with things he speak of in other discussions which makes his claim of false prophets a self-refutation upon himself.

Regardless of what you think of JWs, they never in their existence made claim to being an inspired prophet, even tracing back to their days as Bible Students, furthermore, as I told Srecko, no Non-Trinitarian nor any true Restorationist will ever make the claim of being an inspired prophet. If anything they do see themselves as spirit led prophets who rare not inspired and not infallible.

That being said, no one is blaming you - simply pointing out what can be seen, unless you make a move as Srecko did to undo things and act as if it did not exist, such will not go well with you because that information is already insight and the last person to do that knew he engineered his own demise in a past discussion here and another elsewhere.

To add more fuel to the fire, the information that such ones like you are acceptive of comes from the source of which Witness pulled his information regarding JWs and inspired prophets, of which his own source is in deception when no such claim has ever been made, let alone to Non-Trinitarianism Christendom as a whole - the claim is unheard of and anyone who profess the claim as a viable truth and or accepts such is only kidding themselves and does not do the research on their part in this regard.

Perhaps next time read and make the research before you agree with something, and maybe you will realize as to why I am not for false information and conspiracy, especially coming from a person who proclaims such who believes God sent Satan to do his bidding, for he as yet to make answer to his own words thus far, clearly you shouldn't be acceptive of someone who believes this which is also a lie for God would never do such thing in Moses day.

Also I admire the mild jab, as seen here

On 11/6/2018 at 2:22 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The thing is Srecko, SM doesn't believe the JW's have it right, or he would be one.  

But a man of Christ will always speak the truth in the matter, and Mr. Cryptic who thinks a dead mortal man can somehow still live, made a fool of himself when he does not even know elementary basics of Christian History.

That being said, all I need is the Bible, some Hermeneutics, Strong's, Technological facts and various studies to put such ones in their place, for it did not stop me before and it will not now, and granted of how I am, I take up some great examples from Prophet Isaiah of which me imitating what he did is seen as an error in your eyes. Which is, in as much, quite funny, if I may add.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Once again you link me to someone else. 

Because you agreed with him and because you attest to me not liking something of which I just exposed to be false information.

Be honest with yourself, if someone says such ones are of demonic influence, why in the world would you be speaking with them on this forum, why even commit to making a response to such persons of you agree with someone who speaks in such a way with the people of the faith community in question?

Mind you, this man speaks on shifting God's Order which is a direct violation of not only the apostolic church, but of the Bible itself, accursed, if you will.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So, by making a problem known you say i am causing a problem ? 

Because you attest to what I speak of is an idea - it is not. It is fact that those who think of it in as such that such ones can be a cause to the problem, which history has proven in itself in recent years, especially with the whole Left vs. Right nonsense that is taking place.

For example, we take racism. For someone to say that Racism does not exist, even in our day and age, they are part of the problem because to speak of it as such, it only bolsters others to do things they do not wish to do and even scatter people emotionally, break them. An in real life example is regarding those who says the Holocaust did not happen, this is in regards with a another faith group made such a claim, resulting in a young guy defending himself in this regard, but they kept on going with their lies and they broke the man causing him to cry. such persons who do this these things regardless of which domain this is in are the root of the issue, no solutions to anything to help and or other.

That being said, the next time you say something is an idea, make sure it is not a literal mentality, it happens a lot in the US, even to you folks in the United Kingdom, that is, if you paid attention to whatever media you adhere to, for such is indeed a problem and people who pass it off as something silly or non-existence end up as part of the problem when they themselves can be the one to make a change in the matter.

The mentality, that strives of people who attest to mobs will be put to an end when the End Times conclude and I will be very happy when such things are done away with. You should be too.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If a house was on fire and i made it known, would you then say I caused the fire ? 

A bad example in regards to what a response is made towards you in stating the mob mentality that exist nothing more than a mere idea. Perhaps next time understand as to why I made a response, Mr. Butler.

Racism isn't an idea. Demonizing people isn't an idea. People suffer by means of such things, often end up as targets, those who know what mentality opposers press forth will say something, those who laugh or brush it off as something that does not exist, what of it then of those who are targets in this way? But of course, you will make claim [as you have done so already] that I see myself inferior (which you couldn't even proof when the truth has been spoken and the statistics, and facts, can be brought forth to make it up thus showing the error on your part) because of the imperfections of the world which I can see of which I had witnessed when you are living out in space being unaware of the situations at hand. Therefore, as I told the other commentor (The Pirate Bird) - people need to wake up and stop being asleep, this includes you.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The JW Org is a danger to young children and i will continue to make that known. And I'm proud that I make it known too.

Understandable, as do I. But is is absurd and silly to demonize all Jehovah's Witnesses as if they all commit the crime as soon as that lone individual had done it. I assume Anna, JW Insider and Outta Here are Jehovah's Witnesses, for if someone did the action of abuse, the sin they commit on their hands does not define Anna, it does not define, JW Insider, it does not define Outta Here.

And no, it isn't the Jehovah's Witnesses only, pedophilia and those who seek to abuse and molest children are all over the place. a JW, be it novice or advanced in the faith will not know the intent of the person of whom they are preaching to, let alone one they have evangelized.

this is the very reason I gave you an example, if you led a Church, how would you know? You remove one person will ill intent, the more converts you have, the more adherents, you would not know there intent, in this regard, child abusers.

Furthermore, if children is of your concern, you should be adhering to what Child Abuse and Neglect Services are teaching people, adhere to and educate yourself in this sense so you are better equip to deal with such things, perhaps even teach others, young or old, you can even teach a JW (perhaps teach them instead of always attacking them) because everyone deserves to, no, every must be educated in what child abuse is and understand the signs. You agreed with ARC, do you not? Then you should agree with how they themselves even point to this simple fact of educating people about child abuse, and making better clarification of things.

If there is anything a child molester likes the most, it is a child who is not educated in what child abuse is, let alone what sex is, granted by numerous cases of most children and young ones always being confused and not knowing what just happen. You can be the cause to stop the abuse, and it begins with education, adhere to it, proclaim it, teach others so they can teach themselves and to others, spread what Child Abuse Prevention teaches. If I can do such and understand that child abuse can happen anywhere, then you can do the same, but you refuse, Srecko on the other hand even mocks the information from Child Abuse and Neglect Services.

Srecko made a claim I do not care about children when I speak to and take care of them, hear their stories and what they have to say and what I teach them, especially when it comes to sex and or child abuse, they have that wisdom so that they do not make ill decisions by their own hands, for if you didn't notice even a child can become the abuser. For clearly I made it known from the source itself to which the cryptic yes-man disagrees with, even being in denial of the one of whom he supports who shares the same view as me:

 

On the other side of the spectrum, pedophilia is getting a masses following, it cannot be stop, which is the sad truth, but small instances can be prevented. For if you did not realize it, you have people who are trying to make pedophilia an okay thing, and they are doing this slowly, mainly in the US the people on the Far-Left, as they call it, is in support of this and it is seeping into the EU, including the UK, hence the gangs in question who carter to those with vile intent in regards to children.

That being said, you can do better than that and if you think a small protest that takes up aggressive church disruption as a positive thing, you should be going with another crowd, for if random church members backed out and people of the county are speaking negatively about said protest, that alone should tell you something is wrong and something is not right.

Again, better solutions, and adhere to the Bible on what it says in taking in knowledge and Wisdom, like the verses I gave Srecko on my older response in that link.

That being said, I recall telling you of what young Christian teens said about your response regarding masturbation and pornography, if you want, I can screen you the information of what they had said, about you, and what message they have for you. Chances are, you will not like it, for these teens are doing their best to educate people and your comment of which you profess to him, they did not like it. That alone speaks volumes.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember, by their works you will know them. I am judging the GB by their works. 

How can you say that when you made claim that you do not judge people or assume things? You do not even know who they are personally, you have never met them, if anything you recognize them through any various media about Jehovah's Witnesses and the like. Example would be one can make a judgement on a Homeless man because he takes up space on the street, his clothing is a mess and he can give a very bad order, but if someone truly knew them, spoke to get to to know them, they'd realize that the homeless man is a war veteran, who had a great family until calamity befell them, he can speak about a son and or a daughter of whom he loved but that child was perhaps killed and or had passed away, or even estranged - you wouldn't know unless you knew them.

The works of the homeless man's hands is only committed to the trash and garbage cans around him but that is not the person who is he, for he did not choose to be in that state, bad things in life led him into that position and he seeks help but does not know how to express such, perhaps, even feeling afraid and or inferior to men and women in suits walking among him, even shaming him when they do not know him.

You judge you say, but it contradicts what you had always made a stance on.

On 11/4/2018 at 8:22 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

It is not my place to judge you at all.

On 11/4/2018 at 10:41 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I don't judge individuals that i don't really know, in the JW Org or outside, but I speak plainly about what i can see to be true or false. I only judge those i know as to whether i should associate with them or not.

You even made claim only God can judge you or someone else. You may as well tell us why this time, regarding religious leaders, how did you take the judgement seat of which God sits on in this case? You did claim before no one owns God, what does that make you when you go back o your own words?

you never associated yourself with those religious leaders so how would you know?

You somehow judge every JW to be alike based on your experience in perhaps a small JW church in the UK, the pastors or elders there do not represent all of them around the globe, granted there is 8.5 million of them and growing, clearly not all of them are the same people, just the same faith, nothing more.

That being said, it is understandable, according to your claim, if you really knew them - but you do not and most certainly I doubt you even confronted them, maybe outside of the UK and at their main church.

Next time always be true to your words and do not go back on them.

Like the bible says which this can relate to, let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no for this goes beyond of that of a wicked man (Matthew 5:37).

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

What would be the point of that scripture if it was not for us to judge them ?  Matthew 7 v 15 through 23.

It would be foolish to even use the Scriptures on your part granted your other statements, even your own words. For if now you are saying this and using this passage, does that make your other comments and past responses as a lie? It would not be a surprise if I bring up a single verse in this regard, let alone, it would not be a surprise if I said exactly hat Lord Christ Jesus said to Peter hen he rebuked him.

But if I had to agree with any of your statements, I agree with what you said about only God and or Jesus can judge, even you, as you speak of yourself in this sense, and like our older discussions you attested to that same claim. But here we see you make a U-turn here.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think Jesus made it clear enough here. 

Ok. So can you explain how you said you know of whom God approves and who does not? Because if the Father knows who is for him, how can you make approval for him if you are in no such position, let alone being accpetive to claims that cannot be proven, or claims made by you that you bear no evidence to, or claims made that is false but you show yourself to be agreeing of such.

You are lucky I only see you as misguided and clearly driven by not just anger, but hatred. Therefore I withhold a single verse that can be used against you, just as I had withhold it from Witness.

I leave you with this though, you do not have to agree with your former faith, but actually have some sense to discern what is true and what is false. If former JWs said the Watchtower  has own a portion of Nintendo products and Women's Lingerie, clearly that is absurd and can easily be refuted, but those who have a and even shares a strong disdain, clearly and evident, hatred for something or someone will easily pass such off as an actual truth and will go as far as to attack others and or bystanders who are in their way.

That being said, Matthew 7:23 should not even be quoted by you. Because if everyone knows, any Christian who based their practices and or rules and or laws from the bible knows what this verse entails. You are not a fan of something Biblical - expelling. If you are against it, this verse can be applied to you as Jesus will not recognize any man or woman who shows a total disrespect and or clear ignorance of what he had entrusted the Church to do.

If the Christ showed up right now and you had issue with his command and the Laws of his Father, let alone allegedly being an Anti-Pauline when Paul was a follower of the Christ himself? What do you think, would he say these words to you? Most likely, mainly when some Christians tend to water down what the Bible says because they deem it too strict, even going as far as to take up changes, Traditions of Men, and shifting Orderly Worship of God.

One wouldn't dare do such things otherwise they will be standing in front of the white throne itself for judgement.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB, as you have said, are not inspired, and it would seem they are not even guided by Holy Spirit either. 

Further proves my point on how you and the others are not aware of what a modern prophet, a Christian, is spirit led. It also solidifies the ignorance of Christian history when you do not know what a Restorationist is.

Education is key and the fact that you utter such proves you lack, as you said it here.

That being said, I mentioned they are prophets not inspired and not infallible, it does not negate such ones role, especially in the history of Restorationism and they being among the only people who adhere to their roots, as spirit led Christians.To not mix or twist has witness have done countless times.

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JOHN BUTLER He is linking you with them because your reaction to their comments means you agree with them, not to mention you are mentioning him when you agree with those who made the claim so seeing that the both of you are in a debate, that's a strike on you because if one goes back some pages they can see you agreed with the other guy witness or Frida. 

I don't know about the Islam thing but he even linked the thread where he explained the belief of Muslims to you, the Islam faith and he stamped out the misconceptions. Nothing there shows he is supporting Islam, but rather, explaining it, even going as far as to say we must preach to them about the Bible. You yourself even agreed with him which is odd because recently you said he is supporting Islam when what you said turned out to be false. 

Buddy, I like debates as much as the next guy but if you say something you have to back it up with proof. If I were you I'd do some edits because it may save you some time and the embarrassment. Not every day a a young guy gives advise to an adult but this one fits the bill. 

Nowhere have I shown total support for Islam, therefore John Butler's claim is as empty as a cookie jar in a Kinder Care facility, it is always empty and forever will be empty because he made the conclusion on empty facts of which he cannot even prove when he himself stated it.

It was regarding a thread of which I explained Islam to him and the belief of Muslims, I understand Muslims because I have tried to teach them the bible before. Plus young ones I speak to some of them are Muslims, and I do not go around bashing them or speaking of conspiracy, I come to common ground with them to speak of what God will soon do, just as a Jew to a Samaritan, a Christian to a Muslim.

We should be preaching the gospel, for this is what the bible says, to all people, to all nations, but somehow Mr. Butler cannot see that.

That being said, the man things explaining something and exposing falsehood and bringing forth truth is supporting. Therefore that statement alone on his part is very, very weak.

And yes, he has shown himself to agree with the others hence his own word and his own reactions to them. But hey, I am not someone who is a fan of a guy who believes God's Order should be changed, believes God sent Satan to do his bidding, believes in humans not being humans but of something else which is in opposition of the church, as well as the other guy who thinks of God's Friend as a selfish lair, and adheres to the being acceptive of something that God is clearly against, as seen in the Bible regarding Lot and what he had endured.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Who is Katgar?

It is Kathgar. He is an British-Pankistani Jehovah's Witness who tends to refute people in connection with debates and other things regarding Speaker's Corner, of course he does it online, but is very reserved to himself and those of his circle. Ironically enough, he does not take kindly to people who uses the bible to profess Trinitarianism and Gnosticism, granted that he, as do others, are in constant debate with the opposing groups who profess a doctrine that is not of the Bible or of the Church.

I debated against Kathgar only once (plus at the time I was unprepared of what went down that day and I had made mistakes in confusing things that I lacked in during that time), an the reason for it was due to a Agnostic, who was clearly struggling who tried to divert the debate on to someone else, only at the end, he came back to bite him. The irony is, this only open a door to learn about the more complex things in Christianity and the Bible so I can better understand things, such as questions that are posed that seem difficult and or complex, but in truth, are ridiculously easy to answer, some questions that I can answer another Christian may not even try to answer, especially Trintiarians, for such ones would be quick to denounce a prophet or someone of the Bible int his regard without understand that the answer is in plain site.

I can tell you this, you have to be very very spiritual strong to debate and or discuss matters because there will be a chance for some people who had to defend the truth of the Scriptures. and know that truth always prevail. opposers will speak of you as one who runs or flees, they will skip to insult and mock you for speaking what is true, but know this, the one who speaks truth is the real winner and the one who mocks and insults are the losers.

 

If the other person ends up attacking you, you are actually winning the debate.

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.