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Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I left the Org after doing three months research into the Child Abuse accusations Earthwide in the JW Org.

I don't believe this was the only reason. I did an approximate 3 month research too, and I'm still here (one of Jehovah's Witnesses). And don't tell me I didn't do proper research, or that I was biased. Those who know me on here can verify that my research was pretty thorough and unbiased. 

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14 hours ago, Anna said:

I won't deny that there are some congregants who do not think for themselves and prefer to have someone else think for them. But that is not the objective of the the GB. I can't see how that would be to their advantage. They want our trust and cooperation, yes, but what personal advantage is it to them if they have "power and control" over people? They believe they are going to leave the earth and live in heaven in the near future. They are just doing their job they feel they have been assigned by Christ, which is to get the kingdom message preached, and keep the congregations morally and spiritually clean There is nothing sinister behind that.

Unfortunately, in my opinion as I've said before, and as the scripture says, the GB have become the 'wicked slave' that says the master is delaying, then the wicked slave starts to beat his fellow slaves etc etc.. 

"and keep the congregations morally and spiritually clean" you say. Then explain to me the whole situation of the Child Abuse / pedophilia problem in their Org. And why the GB refused to hand over the twenty years worth of documents pertaining to same, when the Supreme Court of California demanded it. After all the scriptures say to 'be obedient to the law of the land as long as it doesn't conflict with God's law. 

The Pedophilia problem has been hidden in the JW Org for much longer than i know. But in 1997 the GB started collecting all the USA accusations together. The 'orders' were given that the elders must keep quiet about it all and not reveal any Pedophiles within their own congregation. Congregants were ordered not to inform the police and not to go to any outside authority. Children and adults that didn't have 'two witnesses' were called liars. Those same people were disfellowshipped when they wanted justice. And you pretend that the GB were "just doing their job they feel they have been assigned by Christ". Hypocrisy at its best. 

 

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14 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't believe this was the only reason. I did an approximate 3 month research too, and I'm still here (one of Jehovah's Witnesses). And don't tell me I didn't do proper research, or that I was biased. Those who know me on here can verify that my research was pretty thorough and unbiased. 

If you do not believe me then it seems you are calling me a liar. This is general practice for JW's that don't want to believe something. It starts with the GB and follows through with the elders. The Two Witness rule being a good example. Do you honestly think the Two Witness rule was meant to be used in a Child Abuse case ? And yet it is not used when a couple are accused of fornication. 

However, I shall say again. I left the JW Org because of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem Earthwide. I found out how serious the problem was by doing three months research online... It was impossible to talk about it in the congregation because it would have been a 'crime' worthy of disfellowshipment. 

Are you American ? (I never bother trying to dig into people's personal info'). The reason i ask is because Americans are raised on the thinking of 'Collateral damage' being ok. So it seems with you, if you are in agreement with the GB. However Jesus said ....

But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea. (Mark 9 v 42)

Your GB seem to think otherwise. They think it is ok to ruin lives by allowing pedophiles to be hidden in the JW Org. Oh, how many people have been stumbled by this ? How much blood does your GB have on their hands ? 

So you see, I honestly and sincerely could not go out and teach others, with the intention of bringing them into an Org, that allows such wicked things to happen. I did not want to be responsible for giving people a false sense of security, knowing the safety of their children could be at such risk.... 

Whether you believe me is of no importance of course. What is important is that God Himself knows the truth of the matter and either He or Jesus Christ will judge me on it. 

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29 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If you do not believe me then it seems you are calling me a liar. This is general practice for JW's that don't want to believe something. It starts with the GB and follows through with the elders. The Two Witness rule being a good example. Do you honestly think the Two Witness rule was meant to be used in a Child Abuse case ? And yet it is not used when a couple are accused of fornication. 

I thought I was going to be reading  about your whiny  indignation at being called a liar ... but was pleasantly surprised by an irrefutable piece of logic and reasoning.

You are right!

So now the question arises .... WHY .... on this issue (apparently ALONE)  has the GB decided that "THIS ts the Hill we are willing to die on ..."?

For good detectives, information is related in some way ... and is cumulative ... hence the occasional revelation ...  "Hey! ...  (facepalms forehead with a slap) ... it all a ADDS UP!"

SOMEWHERE IN THIS MORASS IS A GEM OF TRUTH. 

ABOUT WHY.

I suppose it's like hunting for REAL gems.   You have to dig through tons and tons of irrelevant spoil material to get to them.

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18 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't believe this was the only reason. I did an approximate 3 month research too, and I'm still here (one of Jehovah's Witnesses). And don't tell me I didn't do proper research, or that I was biased. Those who know me on here can verify that my research was pretty thorough and unbiased. 

Why you do not believe JB? Think he is not sincere or he not done his homework well enough...in compare to your research? If JB has more then one reason for leaving WTJW it is also ok. Perhaps he will tell us that also when he will be ready to tell.

You Anna also doing research, i see that. Why you have different conclusion, it is up to you. :))

 

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On 9/25/2018 at 1:08 PM, Srecko Sostar said:
On 9/24/2018 at 6:01 PM, Anna said:

I don't believe this was the only reason. I did an approximate 3 month research too, and I'm still here (one of Jehovah's Witnesses). And don't tell me I didn't do proper research, or that I was biased. Those who know me on here can verify that my research was pretty thorough and unbiased. 

Why you do not believe JB? Think he is not sincere or he not done his homework well enough...in compare to your research? If JB has more then one reason for leaving WTJW it is also ok. Perhaps he will tell us that also when he will be ready to tell.

You Anna also doing research, i see that. Why you have different conclusion, it is up to you. :))

It's the English language again. When someone says in this context that they don't believe (or believe) something, doesn't mean they think the other person is lying, it merely means I am expressing my opinion on the matter. In this case I don't think the only reason for John's leaving was the child abuse problems, although John might think so. Perhaps when John really thinks about it he may realize that there were other things in the religion that he was unhappy about and this was just the last straw. I am sure our research is similar.  But the difference is, although I am aware we have made mistakes, I am not prepared to "throw the baby out with the bath water". I sincerely believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion, with all their faults. I have had quite a lot of experience in life and I have seen some bad stuff happen in congregations. And as you know, I do not agree with everything. I have experienced other religions, and seen how the "world" does things. So I think I have a pretty broad outlook. But  @JOHN BUTLER has decided that the religion is not for him, and that is his right. Yes, we all reach different conclusions, because we understand things differently.

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

It's the English language again. When someone says in this context that they don't believe (or believe) something, doesn't mean they think the other person is lying, it merely means I am expressing my opinion on the matter. In this case I don't think the only reason for John's leaving was the child abuse problems, although John might think so. Perhaps when John really thinks about it he may realize that there were other things in the religion that he was unhappy about and this was just the last straw. I am sure our research is similar.  But the difference is, although I am aware we have made mistakes, I am not prepared to "throw the baby out with the bath water". I sincerely believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion, with all their faults. I have had quite a lot of experience in life and I have seen some bad stuff happen in congregations. And as you know, I do not agree with everything. I have experienced other religions, and seen how the "world" does things. So I think I have a pretty broad outlook. But  @JOHN BUTLER has decided that the religion is not for him, and that is his right. Yes, we all reach different conclusions, because we understand things differently.

Are you an Elder's wife, or even an elder in drag ?  

When i was 13 years old I was taken from my parents and placed in a 'Children's Home' in my hometown of Reading Berkshire England. 

I was taken from my parents through the court, for not attending senior school on a regular basis. 

Now a Children's Home is a council run 'house' which is supposed to be a 'safe and kind environment' to help children.

No, it was a wicked place. Whist there I suffered sexual abuse, physical beatings, emotional torment and mental strain, not from the other boys, but by the people employed to run the 'house'. I was taken to a 'head shrink' and put on drugs, which quietened me down, so that the male homosexual pedophile social worker could sexually assault me on a regular basis. 

Remember now that this was a council / government run establishment. Therefore I could not run to the police for help as they would have defended the 'Home' against me. I was constantly threatened that if I told anyone I would be sent to an 'Approved School', which I knew to be ten times worse.

At 16½ I found employment as was then able to leave the Home, although i was still under the control of the Social services until i was 18. But having been kept on drugs until I left, I then needed a replacement. So I became a small time drugs dealer so that i could get my own share for free. At that time in my life I was not a nice person to be with.  I attempted suicide once and was unconscious for at least three days. 

Then at around age 18 or 19 my brother introduced me to the JW version of the 'truth'. It seemed fantastic. Almost unbelievable. Etc, etc , etc.

Then a couple of years ago I first heard about the accusations of pedophilia in the JW Org.  I tried my best to ignore it as most JW's do. But finally last year, around August /September time I did my own research. What i found out made me sick in my stomach. What I've learnt about how Elders have treated congregants, especially young ones, has made me more than bitter.

It has affected me in many ways. Firstly, the Governing Body has made rules that go directly against Jehovah God. Secondly, the Elders have carried out those rules just like puppets on strings, with no emotions, no love and most importantly no respect for Jehovah God.

This has brought shame on Jehovah's name. 

Next, and unless you have experienced similar, you will have no idea, and I mean NO IDEA. I feel so much pain for the victims that have to live with the memories, the nightmares and the shame they feel. 

And I relive all my horrific past every time I read the next installment of the disgusting behavior of the Elders in the many congregations Earthwide, yes EARTHWIDE. I only know about, Australia, Canada, America, The Netherlands and the UK. But it must be in every nation, every country that Jehovah's Witnesses are in. 

So I tell you again, I LEFT THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ORGANISATION BECAUSE OF THE CHILD ABUSE / PEDOPHILIA  PROBLEM EARTHWIDE. 

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4 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER This would be the topic for you to discuss why you left JW.org  and the pedophilia problem.

Please try to keep on topic 

These posts above were moved from a topic regarding Sam Herd on a completely unrelated topic.

Um, I can see I am not liked by many for my stance against the Child Abuse serious problem in the JW Org. 

However it seems ok for Anna to call me a liar. 

My love for God, whether Jehovah or Yahweh, will not dwindle, and I will continue to pray through Jesus Christ. 

I will also continue to mention the CHILD ABUSE / PEDOPHILIA within the JW org, unless you ban me of course.

But no, I think you believe in freedom of speech.  

 

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@JOHN BUTLER  I am not judging you for your stance on the scandal within JW.org or even your leaving due to a daughter being disfellowshipped.

I simply wish @admin would give us "threaded replies" so that people could stay on topic.

Nothing worse than starting on one topic only to find an interesting conversation about tree fungus nested 5 pages inside.

Yes. I do believe in freedom of speech as well.

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OMG! @The Librarian is at it again..... Ok...Ok... I will go now and ask the developers to look into threaded replies... AGAIN.....

You really need to chill  ;-).  You are your people are SO intense.... I don't understand half of what you guys argue about in all honesty.

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2 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  I am not judging you for your stance on the scandal within JW.org or even your leaving due to a daughter being disfellowshipped.

I simply wish @admin would give us "threaded replies" so that people could stay on topic.

Nothing worse than starting on one topic only to find an interesting conversation about tree fungus nested 5 pages inside.

Yes. I do believe in freedom of speech as well.

Wow, underhanded or what. 

I DID NOT LEAVE THE JW ORG BECAUSE ONE OF MY DAUGHTERS WAS DISFELLOWSHIPPED. 

In fact at the time i didn't know if she had left of her own accord or been disfellowshipped because my concern was for her wellbeing not for the nitty gritty details. I'm English you see, I think it makes a difference. We English actually care about people. 

 

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5 minutes ago, admin said:

OMG! @The Librarian is at it again..... Ok...Ok... I will go now and ask the developers to look into threaded replies... AGAIN.....

You really need to chill  ;-).  You are your people are SO intense.... I don't understand half of what you guys argue about in all honesty.

I think I'm ruffling feathers in the JW brigade. There seems to be a gang up on JB movement taking place :) 

Is The Librarian American ?  He does seem to have attitude. 

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@JOHN BUTLER  ok. I stand corrected. I thought that was part of your reason.  (nothing underhanded intended)

As for the English. ... Well... I wouldn't differentiate them from those in the USA all that much. 

Neither side is squeaky clean. Need I mention British Colonial rule?

@admin Thanks for checking into that again. Don't mean to be a bother.

 

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2 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER  ok. I stand corrected. I thought that was part of your reason.  (nothing underhanded intended)

As for the English. ... Well... I wouldn't differentiate them from those in the USA all that much. 

Neither side is squeaky clean. Need I mention British Colonial rule?

@admin Thanks for checking into that again. Don't mean to be a bother.

 

I tend to comment on the previous comment, not go back into the distant history of what a person many have said before. However you are entitled to believe whatever makes you happy.  I've never ever said that my daughter's problems have swayed my thinking in that regard. 

I could let it niggle me but I won't, as I'm sure that is what you intended. 

I don't know who is for or against the JW Org and it's not important to me. I only know that, at this moment in time i cannot be part of it. 

I'm hoping God will sort it all out soon as those in or out of the Org will need some guidance at Judgement Day. 

 

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11 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@JOHN BUTLER I am American yes. Originally from "New England".

 

Um thought so. Well at least that will give me some reason for not taking your comments too seriously. :) 

I do honestly think that in America 'collateral damage ' is taught as being unimportant. That can make a big difference to people's thinking. 

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On 9/25/2018 at 3:05 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

to believe something.

Generally said: Fact how we do believe something or we do not believe something, not making that thing as it is true or it is false.

We have freedom to believe what ever we want.    

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@JOHN BUTLER

First of all I want to say I am very sorry you had such terrible experiences as a child. I understand more now how this issue must affect you.

Also I think we’ve had quite a bit of misunderstanding here  as well. I am sorry I doubted the pedophilia  problem was the only reason you left JW.  You make a lot of accusatory statements  but you don’t back them up with facts.  I know, this would take a long time so here are just a few facts that I am familiar with; Yes, there is no doubt that some elders mishandled child molestation cases. I know of one personally in my old congregation in England which involved an influential elder.  When his disgusting behaviour was found out (he actually never had sex with his victims, but he was a groper) he was merely removed from his position as Elder but remained a full time pioneer.  This happened  sometime in the late 80’s. I was  a teenager busy with my teenage life so I didn’t pay much attention at the time. I just remember the notoriety and rumours surrounding this man. Even my mum told me some stuff about him. Anyway, a few months ago I got to talking to a friend on FB.  I will call her Jane. She had faded about 25 years ago and is no longer attending meetings etc. The conversation turned to a  mutual friend of ours from the same cong. and I said I had the feeling that her dad had abused her as a child and that is why she was messed up.  Jane then proceeded to tell me that when she was in her early teens this elder would grope her inappropriately while having Bible study with her. She never said anything to anyone then.  Some months later the same Elder made a big mistake by groping the breast of another friend of mine while she was breastfeeding her first child (at an assembly of all things!). When the father of that sister found out he went ballistic and said if he ever sees that elder he will kill him. (I remembered that).  This got the attention of the elders in the hall and they began to handle the matter. In the meantime my friend Jane did a #metoo and I believe another sister came forward as well.  Like I said, a judicial committee was held in another city, with the CO involved, but all that happened was the elder got stripped of his position. Jane told me that she had to sleep with the lights on for weeks in fear that this elder would get her because she ratted on him.  I didn’t know anything about this at the time. She also told me that she holds no grudge against the org. That they did the best they could in those days as it wasn’t the custom in society ( I mean society in general)  to deal with those things the same way as they are being dealt with now.  She told me her parents weren’t discouraged from going to the police, but they never went.  I guess because it didn’t involve rape.  (The father was not a JW).  Why I am telling you this real life story is because it highlights a few factors.

 1. Child molestation (sexual or otherwise) was not discussed in society in general some decades ago.

2. What happened and how/if things were dealt with in the congregation was very much a matter of how much fuss there was made. This depended on:

3. People. The congregations are comprised of all kinds of people, some very shy and others very outspoken. The father of the sister who was breastfeeding was very outspoken. My mother, if anything like this would have happened to me, would have been very outspoken, no questions asked she would have caused an almighty fuss. And if she deemed it necessary she would have marched to the police, no questions asked.  And she is a very spiritual and zealous JW and the elders respected her very much.

I am sure you have heard of the Candace Conti case while you were doing your research. The Conti case was a classic example of a dysfunctional family that was not fully aware of what was happening in their own lives, never mind that of their child (Candace).  My friend Jane’s parents were not bad, but they were different to my family. Had the elder groped me while having Bible study I would have gone straight to my mum and told her what happened. I know I would have done that because my mum and I have a very close and communicative relationship. In fact an uncle of mine (not a JW) groped me one day ( I was 14) and I went straight to my mum and told her about it. She went straight to her sister (my aunt, also not a JW) and told her what her husband did to me. So my aunt went straight to the uncle, furious. Needless to say my uncle never touched me again.

You see it takes all kinds of people who make up a congregation, and that is why no single case is the same, and why some cases never come to the fore until decades later, and why some cases drag on and never seem to get resolved.

What I take away from all this is that of course no elder or publisher or parent, or anyone in their right mind wants to shield child molesters. Of course the org. doesn’t want to shield child molesters.  No one does. (Why would anyone want a pedophile running lose in their congregation?! The elders have children too!) The only people that are protective of child molesters are those who are in the child porn and human trafficking industry.  And if you want to look at it from a very logical perspective, why would Jehovah’s Witnesses, with their ultra high moral standards, of all people, would want to willingly shield someone who was practicing the vilest of moral depravity?

For decades JWs have been publishing magazines on the dangers of moral decline and the dangers of child sexual molestations and took it even further than “stranger danger” by drawing attention to the fact that this danger can come from  people the child knows, and even from family members. I still remember that Awake magazine. Did the dysfunctional families that needed to read this information read it? Probably not....

There is no denying the child sexual molestation issue was not always dealt with in the correct way, but it seems none of the ideas (like not reporting to police) came from instructions from the org. but was decided on by the body of elders, or sometimes even just one dominant elder. In the past, the elders were not required to call the branch for advice like they are now, and they pretty much did their own thing. This is the reason why now elders have to call the branch as soon as anything like this comes to light, so that they get consistent  instruction on what to do.

And yes, I believe the ARC did us a good service. I believe it was because of them our child policies have become transparent across the board in the shape of the Child protection packet:

    Hello guest!

As for the two witness rule, well that is not much different to secular authorities implementation of "innocent until proven guilty". But notice in par 10 of the document it mentions this: "If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter".—Romans 13:1-4.

So in view of that, the two witness rule applies only in a congregational setting. If secular authorities find enough evidence to convict said perpetrator, and this is where it gets interesting, then even if elders have not gathered enough evidence to support their decision to disfellowship or not disfellowship, then the fact that said perpetrator has been charged with sexual molestation will automatically warrant a disfellowshipping. So either way, the perpetrator will not escape punishment.

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