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Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER

First of all I want to say I am very sorry you had such terrible experiences as a child. I understand more now how this issue must affect you.

Also I think we’ve had quite a bit of misunderstanding here  as well. I am sorry I doubted the pedophilia  problem was the only reason you left JW.  You make a lot of accusatory statements  but you don’t back them up with facts.  I know, this would take a long time so here are just a few facts that I am familiar with; Yes, there is no doubt that some elders mishandled child molestation cases. I know of one personally in my old congregation in England which involved an influential elder.  When his disgusting behaviour was found out (he actually never had sex with his victims, but he was a groper) he was merely removed from his position as Elder but remained a full time pioneer.  This happened  sometime in the late 80’s. I was  a teenager busy with my teenage life so I didn’t pay much attention at the time. I just remember the notoriety and rumours surrounding this man. Even my mum told me some stuff about him. Anyway, a few months ago I got to talking to a friend on FB.  I will call her Jane. She had faded about 25 years ago and is no longer attending meetings etc. The conversation turned to a  mutual friend of ours from the same cong. and I said I had the feeling that her dad had abused her as a child and that is why she was messed up.  Jane then proceeded to tell me that when she was in her early teens this elder would grope her inappropriately while having Bible study with her. She never said anything to anyone then.  Some months later the same Elder made a big mistake by groping the breast of another friend of mine while she was breastfeeding her first child (at an assembly of all things!). When the father of that sister found out he went ballistic and said if he ever sees that elder he will kill him. (I remembered that).  This got the attention of the elders in the hall and they began to handle the matter. In the meantime my friend Jane did a #metoo and I believe another sister came forward as well.  Like I said, a judicial committee was held in another city, with the CO involved, but all that happened was the elder got stripped of his position. Jane told me that she had to sleep with the lights on for weeks in fear that this elder would get her because she ratted on him.  I didn’t know anything about this at the time. She also told me that she holds no grudge against the org. That they did the best they could in those days as it wasn’t the custom in society ( I mean society in general)  to deal with those things the same way as they are being dealt with now.  She told me her parents weren’t discouraged from going to the police, but they never went.  I guess because it didn’t involve rape.  (The father was not a JW).  Why I am telling you this real life story is because it highlights a few factors.

 1. Child molestation (sexual or otherwise) was not discussed in society in general some decades ago.

2. What happened and how/if things were dealt with in the congregation was very much a matter of how much fuss there was made. This depended on:

3. People. The congregations are comprised of all kinds of people, some very shy and others very outspoken. The father of the sister who was breastfeeding was very outspoken. My mother, if anything like this would have happened to me, would have been very outspoken, no questions asked she would have caused an almighty fuss. And if she deemed it necessary she would have marched to the police, no questions asked.  And she is a very spiritual and zealous JW and the elders respected her very much.

I am sure you have heard of the Candace Conti case while you were doing your research. The Conti case was a classic example of a dysfunctional family that was not fully aware of what was happening in their own lives, never mind that of their child (Candace).  My friend Jane’s parents were not bad, but they were different to my family. Had the elder groped me while having Bible study I would have gone straight to my mum and told her what happened. I know I would have done that because my mum and I have a very close and communicative relationship. In fact an uncle of mine (not a JW) groped me one day ( I was 14) and I went straight to my mum and told her about it. She went straight to her sister (my aunt, also not a JW) and told her what her husband did to me. So my aunt went straight to the uncle, furious. Needless to say my uncle never touched me again.

You see it takes all kinds of people who make up a congregation, and that is why no single case is the same, and why some cases never come to the fore until decades later, and why some cases drag on and never seem to get resolved.

What I take away from all this is that of course no elder or publisher or parent, or anyone in their right mind wants to shield child molesters. Of course the org. doesn’t want to shield child molesters.  No one does. (Why would anyone want a pedophile running lose in their congregation?! The elders have children too!) The only people that are protective of child molesters are those who are in the child porn and human trafficking industry.  And if you want to look at it from a very logical perspective, why would Jehovah’s Witnesses, with their ultra high moral standards, of all people, would want to willingly shield someone who was practicing the vilest of moral depravity?

For decades JWs have been publishing magazines on the dangers of moral decline and the dangers of child sexual molestations and took it even further than “stranger danger” by drawing attention to the fact that this danger can come from  people the child knows, and even from family members. I still remember that Awake magazine. Did the dysfunctional families that needed to read this information read it? Probably not....

There is no denying the child sexual molestation issue was not always dealt with in the correct way, but it seems none of the ideas (like not reporting to police) came from instructions from the org. but was decided on by the body of elders, or sometimes even just one dominant elder. In the past, the elders were not required to call the branch for advice like they are now, and they pretty much did their own thing. This is the reason why now elders have to call the branch as soon as anything like this comes to light, so that they get consistent  instruction on what to do.

And yes, I believe the ARC did us a good service. I believe it was because of them our child policies have become transparent across the board in the shape of the Child protection packet:

    Hello guest!

As for the two witness rule, well that is not much different to secular authorities implementation of "innocent until proven guilty". But notice in par 10 of the document it mentions this: "If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter".—Romans 13:1-4.

So in view of that, the two witness rule applies only in a congregational setting. If secular authorities find enough evidence to convict said perpetrator, and this is where it gets interesting, then even if elders have not gathered enough evidence to support their decision to disfellowship or not disfellowship, then the fact that said perpetrator has been charged with sexual molestation will automatically warrant a disfellowshipping. So either way, the perpetrator will not escape punishment.

In period of 1980 and on JW magazine talking about, as i read in this magazine, only women as victims. Second, WT talking about issue as a sin, not crime that have to be handled by secular authorities. 

And WT was seen perpetrators as persons who, if repent enough,  are as other ordinary sinners. 

So, i have to ask; IF GB and His Holy Nation and Only Organization on Earth not received much more better Instructions, from Heaven, in this matter - What makes WTJWorg so better from others in the past time  (from 1980 period on, because GB members loved to mention on TV how this Organization was almost first that spoken about this issue) ?  

Surely one who was sexually abused as a child can be certain of God’s understanding and loving acceptance. Why, Jehovah forgives even those who, unlike the abused child, commit gross sins—if they repent and change their course of action!

    Hello guest!
.
    Hello guest!

From this it can be seen how "Scriptural Based Position" looks like. Child molestation is a gross sin that can be handled without much fuss in Judicial Committee of elders. 

 

Next thing: 

Thanks for link you provide. There is 3 point that is modern, advanced (21 century) view  made by WT. And they said;

A) Child sexual abuse is a perversion

B) Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime.

C) Child abuse is a serious sin.

    Hello guest!

 

When and how GB WTJWorg came to this NEW Instructions and attitude about issue?? With a Little Help of people who are under "devil control". When Courts, experts for child healthCommissions and other Secular Institutions made more talking and made some pressure on religious and other group, institution who HAVE Problem with this. 

Until today, as what i know,  WT Legal Department are not willing to fully cooperate with Courts and other Secular authorities in benefit to victims. Some victims want money, and why not. Because WT victims was not and perhaps will never heard Words of Sincere Repent and Apologize from all those who make them so miserable because not handled their matters and problems in a way that would imitate Heaven's Love, Comfort and Justice.  JWorg web was never, until now, said how GB and other people in position (elder) made (and making still now) big errors and not handled this properly in harmony with all good Instructions that can be found in The Holy Book and in Secular Books too.

Until now NO Public Apologize to Victims! Perhaps, and if they do it public, it would not be sincere ??!!  

This public attitude on JW TV how WT are purely innocent is something disgusting.

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24 minutes ago, Anna said:

By the way John, @JOHN BUTLER I never created this topic. It was the Librarian @The Librarian I wish he would stop doing that without asking! And if he wants to create a topic he should put his own name to it.

HAha, yes sometimes other people use our "Intellectual property" and make new topic. It is understandable, people sometimes gave us some new idea with what they said in comment.

Maybe it would be nice and polite to have little conversation, agreement and mutual exchange of ideas. :)))

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5 hours ago, Anna said:

Of course the org. doesn’t want to shield child molesters.  No one does. (Why would anyone want a pedophile running lose in their congregation?! The elders have children too!)

Sound!!

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

 @JOHN BUTLER I don't have time reply in any detail now (I will some time later) but I just want to let you know I am neither American, nor an elder, nor an elder's wife xD. The closest I come to an elder is my step dad is one.

Ah, Thank you. That is still a close relationship to one. :) I thought i could see some influence there. 

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER

First of all I want to say I am very sorry you had such terrible experiences as a child. I understand more now how this issue must affect you.

Also I think we’ve had quite a bit of misunderstanding here  as well. I am sorry I doubted the pedophilia  problem was the only reason you left JW.  You make a lot of accusatory statements  but you don’t back them up with facts.  I know, this would take a long time so here are just a few facts that I am familiar with; Yes, there is no doubt that some elders mishandled child molestation cases. I know of one personally in my old congregation in England which involved an influential elder.  When his disgusting behaviour was found out (he actually never had sex with his victims, but he was a groper) he was merely removed from his position as Elder but remained a full time pioneer.  This happened  sometime in the late 80’s. I was  a teenager busy with my teenage life so I didn’t pay much attention at the time. I just remember the notoriety and rumours surrounding this man. Even my mum told me some stuff about him. Anyway, a few months ago I got to talking to a friend on FB.  I will call her Jane. She had faded about 25 years ago and is no longer attending meetings etc. The conversation turned to a  mutual friend of ours from the same cong. and I said I had the feeling that her dad had abused her as a child and that is why she was messed up.  Jane then proceeded to tell me that when she was in her early teens this elder would grope her inappropriately while having Bible study with her. She never said anything to anyone then.  Some months later the same Elder made a big mistake by groping the breast of another friend of mine while she was breastfeeding her first child (at an assembly of all things!). When the father of that sister found out he went ballistic and said if he ever sees that elder he will kill him. (I remembered that).  This got the attention of the elders in the hall and they began to handle the matter. In the meantime my friend Jane did a #metoo and I believe another sister came forward as well.  Like I said, a judicial committee was held in another city, with the CO involved, but all that happened was the elder got stripped of his position. Jane told me that she had to sleep with the lights on for weeks in fear that this elder would get her because she ratted on him.  I didn’t know anything about this at the time. She also told me that she holds no grudge against the org. That they did the best they could in those days as it wasn’t the custom in society ( I mean society in general)  to deal with those things the same way as they are being dealt with now.  She told me her parents weren’t discouraged from going to the police, but they never went.  I guess because it didn’t involve rape.  (The father was not a JW).  Why I am telling you this real life story is because it highlights a few factors.

 1. Child molestation (sexual or otherwise) was not discussed in society in general some decades ago.

2. What happened and how/if things were dealt with in the congregation was very much a matter of how much fuss there was made. This depended on:

3. People. The congregations are comprised of all kinds of people, some very shy and others very outspoken. The father of the sister who was breastfeeding was very outspoken. My mother, if anything like this would have happened to me, would have been very outspoken, no questions asked she would have caused an almighty fuss. And if she deemed it necessary she would have marched to the police, no questions asked.  And she is a very spiritual and zealous JW and the elders respected her very much.

I am sure you have heard of the Candace Conti case while you were doing your research. The Conti case was a classic example of a dysfunctional family that was not fully aware of what was happening in their own lives, never mind that of their child (Candace).  My friend Jane’s parents were not bad, but they were different to my family. Had the elder groped me while having Bible study I would have gone straight to my mum and told her what happened. I know I would have done that because my mum and I have a very close and communicative relationship. In fact an uncle of mine (not a JW) groped me one day ( I was 14) and I went straight to my mum and told her about it. She went straight to her sister (my aunt, also not a JW) and told her what her husband did to me. So my aunt went straight to the uncle, furious. Needless to say my uncle never touched me again.

You see it takes all kinds of people who make up a congregation, and that is why no single case is the same, and why some cases never come to the fore until decades later, and why some cases drag on and never seem to get resolved.

What I take away from all this is that of course no elder or publisher or parent, or anyone in their right mind wants to shield child molesters. Of course the org. doesn’t want to shield child molesters.  No one does. (Why would anyone want a pedophile running lose in their congregation?! The elders have children too!) The only people that are protective of child molesters are those who are in the child porn and human trafficking industry.  And if you want to look at it from a very logical perspective, why would Jehovah’s Witnesses, with their ultra high moral standards, of all people, would want to willingly shield someone who was practicing the vilest of moral depravity?

For decades JWs have been publishing magazines on the dangers of moral decline and the dangers of child sexual molestations and took it even further than “stranger danger” by drawing attention to the fact that this danger can come from  people the child knows, and even from family members. I still remember that Awake magazine. Did the dysfunctional families that needed to read this information read it? Probably not....

There is no denying the child sexual molestation issue was not always dealt with in the correct way, but it seems none of the ideas (like not reporting to police) came from instructions from the org. but was decided on by the body of elders, or sometimes even just one dominant elder. In the past, the elders were not required to call the branch for advice like they are now, and they pretty much did their own thing. This is the reason why now elders have to call the branch as soon as anything like this comes to light, so that they get consistent  instruction on what to do.

And yes, I believe the ARC did us a good service. I believe it was because of them our child policies have become transparent across the board in the shape of the Child protection packet:

    Hello guest!

As for the two witness rule, well that is not much different to secular authorities implementation of "innocent until proven guilty". But notice in par 10 of the document it mentions this: "If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter".—Romans 13:1-4.

So in view of that, the two witness rule applies only in a congregational setting. If secular authorities find enough evidence to convict said perpetrator, and this is where it gets interesting, then even if elders have not gathered enough evidence to support their decision to disfellowship or not disfellowship, then the fact that said perpetrator has been charged with sexual molestation will automatically warrant a disfellowshipping. So either way, the perpetrator will not escape punishment.

Thank you for this honest reply. 

I don't know exactly what  'accusatory statements' you refer to but I'm sure if you pinpointed some i could come up with the information needed. Something like this maybe ?

 

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

This might not be what you are looking for but it's a start. 

In your reply you said that the brother was removed from his position but was still a full time pioneer. So, he was still allowed to represent Jehovah full time although being known to be acting in a way that Jehovah hates. He was also a danger to the public but the Elders didn't seem to worry about that. 

That is one important point that JW's don't seem to think about. Yes they say they deal with matters 'in house' but that pedophile doesn't live 24 /7 'in house' does he ?  The Pedophile goes out into the public places, such as on the ministry and in general life. 

Does the general public not deserve to be shown the love, to be protected against such pedophiles ?  Law or not, surely the Elders have a 'duty of care' to the public and to report a suspect to the police. For instance, the police can get a search warrant to search a person's home, to look at content on a person's computer, maybe finding images of children being abused, and information about other pedophiles in pedophile rings. All this could stop further child abuse.. 

ONe other point to your reply. You said that child Abuse wasn't known about or as common years ago. Then why did the Governing Body start building up a 'collection' of files for the last twenty years. 1997 - 2017 and why did they refuse to obey the law of the land by refusing to hand over thins information to the courts ? 

The Two Witness rule meant that many accusations were deliberately dismissed as lies. Therefore no proceedings of any type took place against the accused and that person maintained a clean record of conduct within the Org. That meant in some cases that if it was a man he could become an Elder or continue as an Elder, giving him ever morescope to abuse young ones.

Enough for one reply i think, John 

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

She did not do this.

What she essentially said is that you are too close to a tree to properly assess the forest.

She did not say what you are saying at all.

However although you have sneakily got that comment in (using anna as an excuse)  I cannot see how you have come to that conclusion.

The forest I'm looking at consists of, Australia, Canada, America, The Netherlands and the UK. Is that a big enough forest for you ? 

Maybe the tree you refer to is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, a rotten tree giving off rotten fruit. And the forest I'm looking at seems to prove my point.

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3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In period of 1980 and on JW magazine talking about, as i read in this magazine, only women as victims. Second, WT talking about issue as a sin, not crime that have to be handled by secular authorities. 

And WT was seen perpetrators as persons who, if repent enough,  are as other ordinary sinners. 

So, i have to ask; IF GB and His Holy Nation and Only Organization on Earth not received much more better Instructions, from Heaven, in this matter - What makes WTJWorg so better from others in the past time  (from 1980 period on, because GB members loved to mention on TV how this Organization was almost first that spoken about this issue) ?  

Surely one who was sexually abused as a child can be certain of God’s understanding and loving acceptance. Why, Jehovah forgives even those who, unlike the abused child, commit gross sins—if they repent and change their course of action!

    Hello guest!
.
    Hello guest!

From this it can be seen how "Scriptural Based Position" looks like. Child molestation is a gross sin that can be handled without much fuss in Judicial Committee of elders. 

 

Next thing: 

Thanks for link you provide. There is 3 point that is modern, advanced (21 century) view  made by WT. And they said;

A) Child sexual abuse is a perversion

B) Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime.

C) Child abuse is a serious sin.

    Hello guest!

 

When and how GB WTJWorg came to this NEW Instructions and attitude about issue?? With a Little Help of people who are under "devil control". When Courts, experts for child healthCommissions and other Secular Institutions made more talking and made some pressure on religious and other group, institution who HAVE Problem with this. 

Until today, as what i know,  WT Legal Department are not willing to fully cooperate with Courts and other Secular authorities in benefit to victims. Some victims want money, and why not. Because WT victims was not and perhaps will never heard Words of Sincere Repent and Apologize from all those who make them so miserable because not handled their matters and problems in a way that would imitate Heaven's Love, Comfort and Justice.  JWorg web was never, until now, said how GB and other people in position (elder) made (and making still now) big errors and not handled this properly in harmony with all good Instructions that can be found in The Holy Book and in Secular Books too.

Until now NO Public Apologize to Victims! Perhaps, and if they do it public, it would not be sincere ??!!  

This public attitude on JW TV how WT are purely innocent is something disgusting.

I almost cried when I read your comment here. In fact I am crying now. Thank you for your understanding of such things.

Warmest Christian love, John 

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3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Sound!!

Have you not read your bible. did not the Pharisees 'clean the outside of the bowl or cup and not the inside'.

Have you no understanding of how Satan works ?  

Keeping the child Abuse quiet and within the '4 walls' of the Org give the false impression that the Org is 'clean and safe'. 

There is also the possibility that those at the top of the 'tree' may be deeply involved in such abuse. The GB itself, some of them, may be 'on file' as being involved in such things. Not a direct accusation but a possibility. If not then why are they sooooo keen to withhold the information from the courts ? 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

why did they refuse to obey the law of the land by refusing to hand over thins information to the courts ? 

Since the much-hyped penalty for not doing this was later thrown out by another court, it ought to be clear that it was not the law of the land. Rather, a certain court was exceeding its authority.

The Kavanaugh hearings also ought to have made clear that the lauded impartiality of the world’s justice system is but a bad joke. Law is not the issue. One’s interpretation of law is the issue and that is forged in emotion which is forged in one’s personal experience.

Your pre-Witness experience gives you knowledge of the depravity that humans can sink to. But it also makes you prone to see it everywhere.  It is rather like a Holocaust survivor seeing Hitler everywhere.

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe the tree you refer to is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, a rotten tree giving off rotten fruit. And the forest I'm looking at seems to prove my point.

The poverty-stricken person of a developing nation is stuck with 200 year old turkey of a translation that he can neither afford nor understand because nobody other than the GB sees anything inappropriate about Big Business overseeing the distribution of God’s word.

That is the forest: the distribution and subsequent education in God’s message to humankind.

The tree is your pre-Witness history with regard to child sexual abuse, a background that does not afflict one in a thousand.

 

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44 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since the much-hyped penalty for not doing this was later thrown out by another court, it ought to be clear that it was not the law of the land. Rather, a certain court was exceeding its authority.

The Kavanaugh hearings also ought to have made clear that the lauded impartiality of the world’s justice system is but a bad joke. Law is not the issue. One’s interpretation of law is the issue and that is forged in emotion which is forged in one’s personal experience.

Your pre-Witness experience gives you knowledge of the depravity that humans can sink to. But it also makes you prone to see it everywhere.  It is rather like a Holocaust survivor seeing Hitler everywhere.

And from you viewpoint the victims of all the Child Abuse in the JW Org Earthwide are just 'Collateral damage'.  And as most of the GB are American they seem to have that attitude too.  Hide it, forget it, don't report it, call the victims liars, and keep on pretending the Org is clean. 

But as Luke 8 v 17 makes clear, it all is revealed in the end. 

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11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And from you viewpoint the victims of all the Child Abuse in the JW Org Earthwide are just 'Collateral damage'.  

This exactly makes my point. This is pure emotion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the passage you used to segue into it. It is nothing more than your unhinged hatred of the GB speaking. You suffered abuse in pre-Witness days such as does not afflict one in a thousand. The ‘upside’ is that you know how depraved humans can be. The downside is that you think they all are when child sexual abuse has occurred.

As reported on this thread or elsewhere (I’ll relocate it if I have to) two thirds of professionals REQUIRED BY LAW to report suspected abuse fail to do it. Are they all vile? Plainly, other factors are at work, but you can see only one.

 It is as stated before: You are too close to a particular tree to properly assess the forest. You were tied to a tree that was rotten. You think they all are.

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14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The Kavanaugh hearings also ought to have made clear that the lauded impartiality of the world’s justice system is but a bad joke. Law is not the issue. One’s interpretation of law is the issue and that is forged in emotion which is forged in one’s personal experience.

I watched the Kananaugh Senate Hearings this past Thursday for the whole 9-1/2 or so hours, and was VERY impressed.  I also watched on Friday the Committee's deliberations that moved his nomination along ... about 3 hours.  I was very impressed once again.

How much, TTH, did YOU ACTUALLY WATCH, to form your opinions as stated?

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19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In period of 1980 and on JW magazine talking about, as i read in this magazine, only women as victims

I didn't notice that. Which magazine was that?

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Second, WT talking about issue as a sin, not crime that have to be handled by secular authorities. 

Obviously it is both. The main objective of the WT is to prevent child sexual abuse.  Interestingly, secular articles on this subject also take that as their main objective. Not only that, but they are aware that secular authorities are not the only solution. Read this secular article here:

    Hello guest!

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Surely one who was sexually abused as a child can be certain of God’s understanding and loving acceptance. Why, Jehovah forgives even those who, unlike the abused child, commit gross sins—if they repent and change their course of action!

    Hello guest!
.
    Hello guest!

From this it can be seen how "Scriptural Based Position" looks like. Child molestation is a gross sin that can be handled without much fuss in Judicial Committee of elders. 

That's not what I understood from that article at all. It was clearly talking about helping a victim of incest, it was not focusing on the perpetrator. And it is true, Jehovah can forgive ANY sin if the person turns around (unless it is a sin against the holy spirit). The article was merely pointing out that if the victim feels like they have done something bad, and it is their fault, (and many victims do feel this way) that they shouldn't feel like that, because if Jehovah can forgive an repentant perpetrator, how much more so will he understand and comfort the victim!

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A) Child sexual abuse is a perversion

B) Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor child abuse and view it as a crime.

C) Child abuse is a serious sin.

    Hello guest!

 

When and how GB WTJWorg came to this NEW Instructions and attitude about issue?

What makes you think this is new?

WT 1988 /4/15 page 11. par.6

"Distrust has increased because of another growing fear in our day: the fear of becoming a victim of crime. Many now do like the woman who said that she sleeps with a revolver under her pillow. Another fearful woman said: “I resent it. . . . My grandmother never locked her doors.” Thus, a newspaper editorial in Puerto Rico declared: “The ones who are imprisoned are us,” yes, in our own barred and locked homes. These fears are well founded. In the United States, for example, one woman in three is likely to be assaulted during her lifetime. The surgeon general there noted that “some four million Americans fall victim to serious violence every year—murder, rape, wife-beating, child-abuse, muggings.” Such crime is common in many lands, further damaging the trust that people have in others".

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

With a Little Help of people who are under "devil control". When Courts, experts for child healthCommissions and other Secular Institutions made more talking and made some pressure on religious and other group, institution who HAVE Problem with this. 

I think it would be good if you got some facts from secular articles on child sexual abuse, like this one:

    Hello guest!

I am sure if you Googled "child sexual abuse" in your own language you would come across similar articles. Don't read about the Witnesses, read about what is happening in your country:

    Hello guest!

21 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Until today, as what i know,  WT Legal Department are not willing to fully cooperate with Courts and other Secular authorities in benefit to victims. Some victims want money, and why not. Because WT victims was not and perhaps will never heard Words of Sincere Repent and Apologize from all those who make them so miserable because not handled their matters and problems in a way that would imitate Heaven's Love, Comfort and Justice.  JWorg web was never, until now, said how GB and other people in position (elder) made (and making still now) big errors and not handled this properly in harmony with all good Instructions that can be found in The Holy Book and in Secular Books too.

WT has NEVER shielded or protected known perpetrators. The GB have not mishandled cases of child abuse, the elders have. Elders have apologized to victims where possible. The whole organization cannot be held responsible for every case that happens in congregations. Have you personally had experience of having to handle an accusation of child molestation by someone in the congregation? If not, then you cannot know what you are talking about. If yes, then please let us know what happened.

 

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This exactly makes my point. This is pure emotion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the passage you used to segue into it. It is nothing more than your unhinged hatred of the GB speaking. You suffered abuse in pre-Witness days such as does not afflict one in a thousand. The ‘upside’ is that you know how depraved humans can be. The downside is that you think they all are when child sexual abuse has occurred.

As reported on this thread or elsewhere (I’ll relocate it if I have to) two thirds of professionals REQUIRED BY LAW to report suspected abuse fail to do it. Are they all vile? Plainly, other factors are at work, but you can see only one.

 It is as stated before: You are too close to a particular tree to properly assess the forest. You were tied to a tree that was rotten. You think they all are.

I think we should get a few points straight.

The Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem within JW Org is NOT A SMALL ONE.

It is an Earthwide problem, not just 'a few' people. It has been going on within the JW Org for many years, 50 years in Australia it seems.

For at least 20 years the GB have been collecting accusations of Child Abuse in the USA. 

Many many many of the victims have said they were told NOT TO REPORT IT TO THE POLICE OR OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES.

Many of them have said they were not believed because of the TWO WITNESS RULE.

Jesus said, 'If anyone stumbles the least of these little one it would have better it they has a millstone tied around their neck and they were thrown into the sea'. Do you believe these words of Jesus ? 

We know about Child Abuse  / PEDOPHILIA in the JW Org in  : Australia, Canada, America, the Netherlands and the UK.

I have no info' of child abuse in other JW countries, but I would think it is happening everywhere.

If ten people come forward to tell of their abuse then probably 100 more have not come forward. So we have no way of knowing how many have been abused. So this silly idea of giving a percentage means nothing.

I am blaming the GB because they make the rules, not according to scripture but according to their own preference.

If only half of the accusations are true it is still too many.

As for comparing the JW Org and or GB to, 'professionals REQUIRED BY LAW to report', that's like comparing God's organisation to Satan's world. There should be no comparison. It does not matter what those so called 'professionals' do or do not do. If you believe the GB are the 'faithful slave' then even you should expect the GB to serve Jehovah properly. 

Serving Jehovah properly would mean taking care of 'widows and orphans' 'little ones' everyone within the Christian Congregation. And that would mean keeping the Org clean and free of Pedophiles. 

In my opinion that means that EVERY ACCUSATION OF CHILD ABUSE IN EVERY COUNTRY SHOULD BE REPORTED TO THE POLICE OR AUTHORITIES. And the GB should have handed over the 20 years worth of documents to the court whether it was 'the law or not'. 

But as i say, Collateral damage. Brothers, sisters, children. All destroyed just to keep the Org looking clean.

You keep pretending I'm over emotional, if it serves your purpose, if it keeps your conscience clear. 

I'll keep distrusting the Governing Body as I know clearly in my mind they are not the 'faithful slave' they are the 'wicked slave that says the master is delaying in coming'.   

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I watched the Kananaugh Senate Hearings this past Thursday for the whole 9-1/2 or so hours, and was VERY impressed.  

If I recall correctly, you are also VERY impressed with the Terminator, Jack Reach, and Die Hard movies. Here, I admit, my screen time is slim.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You keep pretending I'm over emotional, 

You write that way. Whether you are or not, how would I know?

You cannot mishandle something that you never attempted to handle. JWs did the best they could in cleaning house when few others had any interest in doing likewise. The fact that cases from 2000 on do not present themselves (they are ever from the 80s and 90s) suggests that whatever problems there were, they have been corrected.

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