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Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses

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20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Over to you Tom. I have other things to do right now....  

No you don’t 

He is even wrong here:

’Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.’

If it was really a blanket, it would be on top of me.

A lot of things are that way with our apostates: completely upside down.

 

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22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No you don’t 

He is even wrong here:

’Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.’

If it was really a blanket, it would be on top of me.

A lot of things are that way with our apostates: completely upside down.

 

As it happened I didn't win anything at the auction so didn't have to go. So I edited the comment a bit after.

But if that is the  best reply you can come up with i can see why you are still a JW, a non thinking machine. 

Try a bit harder Tom, at least try to show some intelligence. 

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

While they may not be lazy, they certainly are deceitful. They push for all it is worth the idea that all you have to do is disagree with the GB and you will be expelled! Well, what do they disagree with them ABOUT? It’s amazing how many of them go on to embrace the homosexual lifestyle or become activists in this or that aspect of the greater world, newly determined to fix whatever they think is wrong with it. 

 “They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.”  John 16:2-4

“put you out of the synogogues”  - aposynagōgos - excluded from sacred assemblies of Israelites, excommunicated.

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness  Wt 15/4/15

“…will think that he offers God service”

It is a serious thing to disfellowship a person, because it means that the person is cut off from God’s organization, from life.  Wt 61/6/15

“…the time is coming that whoever kills you”

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.”  Matt 24:9,10 

 “Therefore whoever confesses Me (Jesus Christ) before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”  Matt 10: 32,33

“He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”  Matt 10:39

Preaching to Israel -

“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:21-23

“This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth”.  Matt 24:14

The “inhabited earth” is the dwelling of God – “Israel”.  Acts 7:48-50; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:14-18

How can an organization offer life?  Is the Watchtower run by a different means than any other organizations in the world?  It uses your money, time, and dedication to keep it afloat.  Matt 6:24 

It is part of this world.  How foolish to think we can use the very resources the world offers and then label it a theocracy ruled by God. 

“ Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of lifeis not of the Father but is of the world.”  1 John 2:16

There is only one gate, one door -  Christ Jesus.  John 10  You hear about him on occasion, but  another door - “Jehovah’s organization” -  and another Master, the “slave”, takes the spotlight. 

Not everyone who is disfellowshipped runs off to commit sin, free to do whatever they want.  Anointed and those not anointed, desire to serve the one true Master, Christ, and the Father.  Their obedience to them is direct.  They don’t need a wicked slave to authorize every detail of their life, from clothing to the form of praise they must offer to “Jehovah”.  Rev 13:1,4,11,14-17  I doubt JWs can imagine being guided by Holy Spirit first-hand when their governing body admits it is not.

There is one “organization” that Jesus and God have authorized and it has no part in the riches of the world.  John 2:19,21; 1 Pet 2:4-10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Heb 12:18-24; Isa 55:1; Rev 22:17

"O house of Jacob, (“Israel”)  come and let us walk
In the light of the Lord.

For You have forsaken Your people, the house of Jacob,
Because they are filled with eastern ways;
They are soothsayers like the Philistines,
And they are pleased with the children of foreigners. (elder body rule, not “circumcised” Ezek 44:6-9; 2 Thess 2:3,4,9-12
Their land is also full of silver and gold,
And there is no end to their treasures;
Their land is also full of horses,
And there is no end to their chariots.  Joel 2:1-5; Rev 9; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:1,2,7,18


Their land is also full of idols;
They worship the work of their own hands,
That which their own fingers have made.

Work to build into his heart a deep love and respect for Jehovah, the Bible, and Jehovah’s organization. Km 10/90   


People bow down,
And each man humbles himself;
Therefore do not forgive them.

   A humble person becomes more valuable to Jehovah’s organization because his attitude makes him a good and useful servant of God.  Wt 12/11/15

10 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty.  Joel 2:1,2; Matt 24:4-8


11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day."

Christians—Be Proud of Who You Are!  Wt 05/2/15

Am I proud to tell people that I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?’  ws18 July pp. 21-26  

You live in a land of mixed messages, yet, “my people love to have it so.  But what will you do in the end?”  Jer 5:31

"Sever yourselves from such a man,
Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he?"  Isa 2:22

Isaiah chapter 2 depicts the rise of the true Mt Zion, “restored” and finished outside of a mountain of confusion.  Zech 4:6,7; Isa 48:20

 

 

 

 

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I would just like to state for the record that as the owner of this website... I do not like pejorative labels.

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

I realize that all you different religions are free to exercise what you believe in.....

however I would like to push MY OWN POINT of thought that we ALL should try to stop using labels on people.

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

 

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

p.s. - I still use the label SPAMMERS in a pejorative sense. Nobody is perfect. 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Watchtower logic is like this:

What we told and what we teach is true. Now we just have to wait for new information's that will prove opposite or different. Meanwhile, all who would disagree with us must go, in this way or another.

:)))) haha .. for my opposers

Apparently you didn't get the lesson on Apostle Paul, of which was explained to you in heavy, heavy detail. But I ill leave it at that. Remember, Paul spoke to buildup his brothers and sisters and we see the result in his second Epistle, and in his Epistle, he showed what the church did to make the change. Those who didn't, it is clear of what happened with them when Paul was around and the Binding and Loosening has taken place in the church. 

What Paul did, who was indeed of the Apostolic Age, is no different from what is being done today.

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46 minutes ago, Witness said:

“They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.”  John 16:2-4

“put you out of the synogogues”  - aposynagōgos - excluded from sacred assemblies of Israelites, excommunicated.

Ironically, this verse point to several: Matthew 24:9, Acts 8:1 and Acts 12:1, 2 and finally, Acts 26:11. Now John 16:1 regarding that Strong's in a simple term is to be expelled from the congregation; away from the synagogue, expelled from the synagogue, excommunicated.

With what was going down during that time it should serve to us as an example, to reflect, that all of us must do well to reflect on the life course those who had to deal with us back then and now and onward. We are put to task to imitate their example to remain strong and able under all forms of trial and to not allow any form of opposition or persecution, small or great, cause us to abandon our True God who is our Father and his Son and all that is in connection to them, even the church and we continue to serve, to trust and to obey so all will go well with us.

55 minutes ago, Witness said:

How can an organization offer life?  Is the Watchtower run by a different means than any other organizations in the world?  It uses your money, time, and dedication to keep it afloat.  Matt 6:24 

As is the early church, that does the same and uses money to remain.

56 minutes ago, Witness said:

It is part of this world.  How foolish to think we can use the very resources the world offers and then label it a theocracy ruled by God. 

So using money to enable the spreading of the Good News Gospel is somehow an bad thing to do? I answered this before. AS long as the money is in use and use wisely in terms of God's service, there is no problem with that, this also goes for Christians who are able to do free-will offerings and do not have to and or require to apply the law of Levites.

God is aware there is a use of currency, after all, the Law of the Levities was a primitive form of currency and whole lot of bartering, an the fact that there was use of currency in the Temple and Synagogues during the days of Jesus, with a total of 12-13 treasure boxes and a large one to put everything in at the end of the day, guess what that money is used for primarily? To prove food and resources to the poor, and to prove for those who go out and speak of the gospel, and so forth.

Like I told someone else before on here. If such a resource is that bad, what is it that is allowing you to even post a comment here, thus use the internet as a whole? We shouldn't be hypocritical about it, for there is good people who uses resources with good intent, and there is bad people also, who use the same resources for bad things.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

There is only one gate, one door -  Christ Jesus.  John 10  You hear about him on occasion, but  another door - “Jehovah’s organization” -  and another Master, the “slave”, takes the spotlight. 

And yet in the Greek New Testament those, under Christ had doors to which people enter to learn what is true, again, the same thing is being applied today by Christians. No one is taking the spotlight here, for if you understood the Christ, he spoke of those who shepherd his flock, if the churches are taking the spotlight that you completely leaped over several parts of the New Testament. Examples, the Church of Corinth, they, after coming to their senses, had the help of Paul to fix themselves up and they serve God and take in the command of the Christ, they are not some separate Master, they are, putting into application what they, as Christians professed, for they are technically in union in serving God and the teachings is in fact that door, which leads to God and his Christ.

Read for context, read the references, also John 10:16 and references was a dead giveaway too.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Not everyone who is disfellowshipped runs off to commit sin, free to do whatever they want.  Anointed and those not anointed, desire to serve the one true Master, Christ, and the Father.  Their obedience to them is direct.  They don’t need a wicked slave to authorize every detail of their life, from clothing to the form of praise they must offer to “Jehovah”.  Rev 13:1,4,11,14-17  I doubt JWs can imagine being guided by Holy Spirit first-hand when their governing body admits it is not.

The thing here is it is not sin that one must worry about, it is of interfaith things and or things of accursed teachings, some of which based off of opinions and emotions and shifting what the Bible says to fit some other agenda.

I can give a clear example from our last discussion whereas your views is of both emotion and opinions, granted you are not a JW, and most likely have not sinned, but you coy yourself with what is actually accursed and tried to use several verses and passages in the Bible to justify something that is NOT of the church.

Even during the days of the early church, the members followed the pastors who are in religious leadership and or office because the direction they give is of the scriptures and the teachings of the church is equal to that or an attempt, of which can be seen today with a small pocket of Christians. For Paul was a man, an Apostle, and yet you have people heeding his words, for his words was not based off of opinion ,as you suggested before, for Paul was a man who had God's Spirit on him and he speaks what is true of the Scriptures and thus the Church, and her people, put this into application, even taking said information from this man, Paul to up-build themselves and stop the errors they are committing, stepping away from what is accursed.

So if the Christ entrusted such things such as Expelling aka excommunication, you do not abandon a command of such and or water it down or change it. It is as clear as it is in the passage and should not be overwrite by those who shed emotion/feelings that result to changing what such actually is.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

There is one “organization” that Jesus and God have authorized and it has no part in the riches of the world.  John 2:19,21; 1 Pet 2:4-10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Heb 12:18-24; Isa 55:1; Rev 22:17

Anyone who follow the church and apply the teachings, striving to be like the church who was for all things of God's Word are pretty much an organized bunch of people, for the Jews and Gentiles were shattered and preached the Messianic Age and the good news gospel and they were organized, but all over the place.

There are many organizations out there, but only a small few strives to do what the early Church has done.

Also, as I always tell you..... Check your verses.....

The rest of the items you mention is pretty much what you have been corrected on before and the obvious misuse of verses to fit your own emotion and opinions.

That being said, your own teacher falls into the category, I do not care if had some form of affiliation with Jehovah's Witnesses, but her being very accepting things that is not of the church, and she's subtle with it shows that she has not did anything afterwards to understand the roots of Christendom in of itself. So I leave you with Galatians 1:1-11.

I'll also leave you with this link so you can better understand what the Apostolic Church is all about and the fact that people are actually attempting to follow this exact church compared to mainstream and accursed ones such as new agers and the like.

    Hello guest!

As for the word organization, remember what I had explained to you about God's Order of which your teacher sees it as something entirely different.

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40 minutes ago, admin said:

I would just like to state for the record that as the owner of this website... I do not like pejorative labels.

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

I realize that all you different religions are free to exercise what you believe in.....

however I would like to push MY OWN POINT of thought that we ALL should try to stop using labels on people.

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

 

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

p.s. - I still use the label SPAMMERS in a pejorative sense. Nobody is perfect. 

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

Well this is the Jehovah's Witnesses Public club and that organisation still uses the word Apostate. Hence one reason you see it on here.

JW Org and it's GB are basically an antiquated religion in that way. They see it that by pinning such a label on someone then no one else in the Org will talk to them. It works too, none of them locally talk to me. 

That means of course that all the knowledge I've gained by my research, i cannot pass on to others. But my conscience is clear as I've tried to tell others but they would not listen. 

It's difficult to converse with someone about the JW Org, that hasn't been a JW. You have to have been there type of thing. 

 

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@JOHN BUTLER But hen others speak to truth you turn and do the same. That being said, this specific forum, originally was Controversial Post, come here at your own risk and speak to defend, something of that sort, I think Allen quoted it before it was changed. But still it is in application here.

Apostate is Apostate, those who do not adhere to God, those who think they know God but twist the word into something accursed. Such ones tend to go to the extreme and even become highly disgruntled, those who do not are subtle in their words and actions only to attempt to do some critical damage to a person and or group and or community.

Also this is a forum, Admins can do whatever they please in this sense, you are only a child, playing in their playground, as is the rest of us. If they say something it is by their word and they can remove you from the playground without fail if need be - as is the case with so and so who goes by many names and faces.

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28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

@JOHN BUTLER But hen others speak to truth you turn and do the same. That being said, this specific forum, originally was Controversial Post, come here at your own risk and speak to defend, something of that sort, I think Allen quoted it before it was changed. But still it is in application here.

Apostate is Apostate, those who do not adhere to God, those who think they know God but twist the word into something accursed. Such ones tend to go to the extreme and even become highly disgruntled, those who do not are subtle in their words and actions only to attempt to do some critical damage to a person and or group and or community.

Also this is a forum, Admins can do whatever they please in this sense, you are only a child, playing in their playground, as is the rest of us. If they say something it is by their word and they can remove you from the playground without fail if need be - as is the case with so and so who goes by many names and faces.

apostate
əˈpɒsteɪt/
noun
  1. 1.
    a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
    "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith"
    synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More
adjective
  1. 1.
    abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.
    "an apostate Roman Catholic"

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@Space Merchant ,

 

 Although you sympathize with the Watchtower, you have ideas that just wouldn’t fly if you were a JW.  To be so vocal about those ideas as a dedicated JW, could cause you to be disfellowshipped.  Then, you would understand what it means to be cut off – spiritually viewed as dead – by those you thought were your brothers and sisters.  As it is, within the Watchtower organization, you are not presently even considered a “brother”.  Your views are shrugged off by the majority since you are perceived as never receiving “the truth”. 

If you were to dare preach Christ as your only Head, you would be disfellowshipped, for the GB has assumed headship over the anointed and all.  If you disagreed with a teaching, knowing full well it had the ability to change within a few years and voiced it as the lie that it was shown up to be, you would be disfellowshipped.  

As a JW, where would your love for pure worship come to an end?  Would you continue to proclaim your beliefs as you do here, or would you fall into the fear of men and refuse to speak up for Truth?  This is where JWs are at.  Either they buckle down and accept all of the GB’s teachings, or they express themselves as Christ did, and face the cutting off that he predicted would happen to those who love HIM and not a blasphemous organization. 

As much as you want to be, you are not my teacher.  That would be Christ and the Holy Spirit.  If I share the same belief as other anointed ones, we are working as the Body should, under one Lord, one faith, one baptism.   Eph 4:3-5

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25 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:
apostate
əˈpɒsteɪt/
noun
  1. 1.
    a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
    "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith"
    synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More
adjective
  1. 1.
    abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.
    "an apostate Roman Catholic"

Shepherd the Flock of God:

Apostasy:

Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment. It includes the following: ˙ Celebrating false religious holidays: (Ex. 32: 4-6; Jer. 7:16-19) Not all holidays directly involve false religion and require judicial action.

˙ Participation in interfaith activities: (2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17, 18) Apostate acts include bowing before altars and images and sharing in false religious songs and prayers.—Rev. 18:2, 4.

˙ Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses: (Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 John 7, 9, 10) Any with sincere doubts should be helped. Firm, loving counsel should be given. (2 Tim. 2:16-19, 23-26; Jude 22, 23) If one obstinately is speaking about or deliberately spreading false teachings, this may be or may lead to apostasy. If there is no response after a first and a second admonition, a judicial committee should be formed. —Titus 3:10, 11; w89 10/1 p. 19; w86 4/1 pp. 30- 31; w86 3/15 p. 15.

˙ Causing divisions and promoting sects: This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity of the congregation or undermining the confidence of the brothers in Jehovah’s arrangement. It may involve or lead to apostasy.—Rom. 16:17, 18; Titus 3:10, 11; it-2 p. 886.

˙ Continuing in employment that makes one an accomplice to or a promoter of false worship would subject one to disfellowshipping after being allowed a reasonable amount of time, perhaps up to six months, to make the needed adjustments.—w99 4/15 pp. 28-30; km 9/76 pp. 3-6.

˙ The practice of spiritism.—Deut. 18:9-13; 1 Cor. 10:21, 22; Gal. 5:20. ˙ Idolatry: (1 Cor. 6:9, 10; 10:14) Idolatry includes the use of images, including pictures, in false religious worship.

 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:
apostate
əˈpɒsteɪt/
noun
  1. 1.
    a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
    "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith"
    synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More
adjective
  1. 1.
    abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.
    "an apostate Roman Catholic"

Correct, but it goes even deeper than that. I will begin with a verse, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which reads:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now for Apostate and or Apostasy, it also means to defection [deflect] and or to revolt. It is a falling away, a withdrawal. For even in Bible times there has been apostasy and even foretold by Jesus himself (Matthew 24:10-12) which would precede the day of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Apostasy, not in name but in fact, meets scathing rebuke in the Epistle of Jude; the apostasy of angels (Jude 1:6). Foretold, with warnings, as sure to abound in the latter days (1 Timothy 4:1-3 2 Thessalonians 2:3 2 Peter 3:17). Causes of: persecution (Matthew 24:9, 10); false teachers (Matthew 24:11); temptation (Luke 8:13); worldliness (2 Timothy 4:4); defective knowledge of Christ (1 John 2:19); moral lapse (Hebrews 6:4-6); forsaking worship and spiritual living (Hebrews 10:25-31); unbelief (Hebrews 3:12). Biblical examples: Saul (1 Samuel 15:11); Amaziah (2 Chronicles 25:14, 27); many disciples (John 6:66); Hymeneus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:19, 20); Demas (2 Timothy 4:10) and so forth, for it was not common for such to take place then and now.

Here is where the whole Interfaith comes in. Interfaith means relating to or between different religions or members of different religions. For we are to be highly cautious of interfaith groups, ministers, chaplains and churches, etc. For it is spoken of, by the Christain community that Satan has been infiltrating churches today with this tactic via interfaith groups that are intended to lead people away from the truth of God's Word and his teachings that originate with the church. Now as I have said Jehovah's Witnesses to their very core are Restorationist, I'll link you the information so you understand what that is here (

    Hello guest!
). The reason they are up to their eyes of apostasy is due to interfaith teachings and or practices that may hinder their community, example, The Trinity, or those who see the Holy Spirit as a women, or as @Witness himself briefly mentioned which is considered interfaith is those who believe that humans and angels are one in the same, or hybrids of some sort. All such things do not fly with Restorationist, so this is but of several reasons they are this strict. Another case is disgruntled members of their faith community who will use the teachings, mixed with mainstream ideologies to fool the masses, like the claim of inspiration when Restorationist Christians to their core do not claim inspiration, especially those who are against the Trinity and are openly accepting of the New Covenant.

So as I made mention before, if you go to a JW church or is a member of that church and spread interfaith teachings, chances are you will be excommunicated and or kicked out quickly because when it comes to interfaith, regardless of faith, it spreads like wildfire and causes problems. This same example goes for those who go into churches and make claim Jesus does not like others who are not of the 12 tribes and everyone else will be killed expect the 12 tribes,  other cases, if you go to a church and say Jesus is [Asian, Black, Mexican, etc] it is falls into the category of interfaith to those who take such very, very seriously.

We had an example in United States back in 2016 of July of a whole Interfaith event called Together 2016, which was held by the Vatican's Pope to gather ALL religions, and it was a problem. This month, this same thing will take place in Texas, to which I mentioned this to JWI before on this forum. For

Interfaith supporters are also in Apostasy because such ones are in union things such as homosexuality and tolerate it. Already we see this wickedness becoming prevalent in society's churches who are open to accepting those who are for the union of interfaith supporters and the like. The primary reason why homosexuality is thriving today is because of a woeful lack of Bible-preaching in America and parts of the EU. This is why there needs to be those who, by a single person and or by group to preach the true gospel, to teach what is true and not stumble into mass confusion as those who are supporters of Interfaith thus making them Apostates.

So this is why many are up in arms, so to speak regarding Apostasy and disgruntled ones. For in order for God's Word to prevail the truth must be spoken and taught, we shouldn't give the mainstream an inch of ground to succeed otherwise God's Word will be put into a pit in the ground until someone tries to pull it out.

Apostasy is to be taken seriously, just as it is for anything accursed, anything that is false, anything that hinders truth, anything that taints spiritually, anything that is not Berean Like, anything that is absurd, etc.

For you have to walk as the Christ have done, and do everything in your power as he did for his God, you do the same. It matters not of what faith you are, it only matters when you speak the truth, which entails not making lies of scripture and or others Christology, for you have to be truthful 100% in this sense.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Although you sympathize with the Watchtower, you have ideas that just wouldn’t fly if you were a JW.  To be so vocal about those ideas as a dedicated JW, could cause you to be disfellowshipped.  Then, you would understand what it means to be cut off – spiritually viewed as dead – by those you thought were your brothers and sisters.  As it is, within the Watchtower organization, you are not presently even considered a “brother”.  Your views are shrugged off by the majority since you are perceived as never receiving “the truth”.

As I have told you before, I speak truth and nothing but that and I adhere to the teachings and the church. I made it clear to you before; if someone speaks of any error and conspiracy I will correct them. You confused Earthly Jerusalem for Heavenly, I correct, you referred to Apostle Paul’s on word as an opinion, I correct, you try to confuse Greek text for that of the TR 1245, I correct, and you’ve been corrected on several occasions, thus far.

If you are found to be in error of something a person or a group, I will correct you, for if one studies religion for this long, I can spoke the error and make a response. It is not about sympathizes with anyone, it is putting forth truth to the wrong of which is spoken of by those who do not even give a care to their own religious history and or the Bible and if you took the time to care about the history of the Bible I would not have stopped you before with mentioning the TR 1245 and your attempt to confuse when you have been quickly corrected.

My views have not been shrugged off. I believe God is the our Father, I believe Jesus is his Son for he is our Messiah/Christ who is like a mighty warrior who is to come and save us soon. I believe what Jesus had commanded the church to do and what he has entrusted, I believe whole heartedly of what the Law of God entails, mainly of which 2 things of which the Laws hang from. I believe that the holy spirit is of God of which helps those to progress spiritually and to learn and to teach, to spread the Great Commission and so forth. I believe in all the efforts the Apostle have done, suffering, attacked and so forth, even their students, just so we can have the Bible in our hands today. So to say no one is in agreement with my views only proves for your claim to be unfounded, just as your absurd claim you made against me regarding women, as is with your silly attempt to use a typo against me when I first discussed with Butler in the past, when you were clearly aware of how I am with spurious text. So I ask you, if you going to say something like that, best be to task to bring proof, otherwise you show yourself to be as blind as your own claims.

Furthermore, my information on here has been sought by others already, especially to the discussion we had about women and their position of the church and I believe I also mentioned to you of what their response was in all this, and I have done this before when your claim to conspiracy when even the words of a former JW counters yours. I even shown proof, or is it you have forgotten this fast already?

As for Spiritual Death, it means to be cut off from a faith community, it is a spiritual death, for when one spiritual dies, he or she alienates himself away from God, I believe this was professed to you before when you were mixing verses, time and time again to fit your own emotion and opinions. Furthermore, Spiritual Death also entails in those who does not adhere to anything spiritual whatsoever, which is the case with a lot of people, who in this day and age do not even give care to learn of and accept who God is, or his Purpose, or His Will, or perhaps his Order, of which you show yourself to be against. In the core of Christian Theology: spiritual death is separation from God. Humans are separated from God because of sin, which entered the world through the Fall of Man, and are reconciled to God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Now for Restorationist Christians. In their primitive Christian practices, among their faith community, they see those of their equal as a brother and or sister. For Restorationist all tend to focus on the same practices and teachings as it was for the early church. They view those outside of their faith normal folk, and to the majority of some, they see that what they see as truth is to be professed and or preached to the general public, as it was in Bible times. Restorationist adhere, as I told you before to which you seem to have forgotten, they take high importance of the Great Commission, for if they do not see anyone outside of their faith as children of God also, they it defeats the purpose as to why they adhere to the Great Commission to begin with, thus making themselves ultimately in the wrong, defeating the purpose of spreading the gospel, as it was done by Jesus and those who followed. Restorationist practice excommunication as well as anyone cut off from their people have all church ties cut totally, however, such ones tend to be taken back into the church when such ones have repented for their sins. Excommunication among Restorationist is not something of the extreme such as a Herem (Censure), but the form they practice is as followed: We should excommunicate, because it’s merciful to sinners.

That being said, I know what is true, you should take a good look at yourself because last time, you considered try to use a verse to justify and profess a shift in God’s Order, thus making your truth, the one from your teacher, false and accursed.

I can tell you right now, your truth, this human/angel hybrid nonsense, isn't' truth.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If you were to dare preach Christ as your only Head, you would be disfellowshipped, for the GB has assumed headship over the anointed and all.  If you disagreed with a teaching, knowing full well it had the ability to change within a few years and voiced it as the lie that it was shown up to be, you would be disfellowshipped.

This is because Restorationist, as with ALL Christians, regardless of denomination do not like anything to do with Interfaith, in Islam and Judaism anything Interfaith is considered forbidden. Restorationist Christians follow what the church was teaching back in ancient times, and as Paul himself professed clearly in Galatians 1:6-10

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Paul made himself clear on what he was speaking about regarding the accursed, a gospel that is not of the church, for instance, it is as clear as day of what was in that discussion to which I linked to Mr. Butler so he can see for himself of what I met about when the truth is thrown into one’s face. We see here, an attempt, even by you to use verses regarding Salvation in order to make proof to God’s Order changing, when the structure of both the church and family has not change, for everything is in Order as is the day God made Adam and then Eve. The problem I see here is not with one who leaves any church, this includes Jehovah’s Witnesses, the problem here is people to take up accursed teachings and profess it as truth, your Pearl, did just that, to which you posted and to which you have been corrected on, and I even asked you, in question of a very specific question to you and Srecko, and no answer was made.

Thus the truth itself puts what you profess based on your opinions and emotion to shame, and the fact you tried to even consider I somehow have a disdain for women only failed on your part and you were quick to judge based on a simple capitalization of a word, which is not too far off from trying to use a typo, which also failed on your part.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

As a JW, where would your love for pure worship come to an end?  Would you continue to proclaim your beliefs as you do here, or would you fall into the fear of men and refuse to speak up for Truth?  This is where JWs are at.  Either they buckle down and accept all of the GB’s teachings, or they express themselves as Christ did, and face the cutting off that he predicted would happen to those who love HIM and not a blasphemous organization. 

Restorationist tend to devote their whole livelihood to pure worship of God, for some too much for their own good that they live literally off the grid, living pretty much as it was in Bible times, to where they make their own clothing, cook their own foods, etc. The only thing they have to read is the Scriptures and only that, they pretty much cut themselves off from society and devote themselves to God. Restorationist Christians only fear God and that is how they are, as is their early counterparts and all they care about is going in accordance of what the Bible says, for that is embedded in their Christology. They do not adhere to any doctrines of men as what took place centuries later, with the introduction to the Trinity or Modalism, things of such they are against, hence the term they are often called Anti-Trinitarian. Restorationist believe in religious leaders, who are going in accordance with the Scriptures, for they are one with the Shepherd and the Flock, being those of Restorationism, being one themselves with the Shepherd. They are of the same fold and put into application the teachings. Moreover, they do not have a fear for being cut off, for they know what Jesus had entrusted the church, that is if you understand Matthew 16, and what the churches have done to those who speak of anything accursed and or do not adhere to the teachings and or the teachers at that time, it is no different with Restorationism today, as is all faiths.

Restorationist put into application Christ-like qualities and life the lifestyle that most people cannot do. The Apostolic Church of the Early Age is of the Christ, who is the Head of the Church, so they put into application all things of the Church.

A bit ironic that you mention the Head, for last time we discussed, you were not a fan of God’s Order.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

As much as you want to be, you are not my teacher.  That would be Christ and the Holy Spirit.  If I share the same belief as other anointed ones, we are working as the Body should, under one Lord, one faith, one baptism.   Eph 4:3-5

 

Never said I was your teacher or wanted to be, but when someone gives criticism and or speaks actual information of the Bible, adhere to it. For a man who gives you directions to a destination is not your permanent guardian, he is simply assisting, guiding you to the correct path.

Simply put – telling you to not trip over yourself, as you have always been doing.

 You do not need a teacher to know the difference between Earthly and Spiritual, as you have confused yourself with before. You do not need a teacher to tell you that humans are not human/angel hybrids, a teaching that is new aged. You do not need a financial adviser to understand what a trust fund is and yet an EXJW's won quote gives you that insight to the truth. You do not need a teacher to recognize God’s Order when it is there in the Bible, but you ignore it and or remain ignorant to it. You do not need a teacher to say that a man such as Paul only spoke of an opinion when Paul himself, who has God’s Spirit on him, was speaking of what God has put in motion.

That being said, I would not want to be your teacher, all I have asked you is to study your Bible and study the history of Christianity because many, many times you trip over yourself, you do not even want to take the words of ExJWs also because it defeats your own resolve.

And lastly, you not once, not twice, not three times, and yet you continue to do so. If I am able to point that out, you have a long way ahead of you to go and like many of the mainstream, you area astray. I care not if you are a JW or a Muslim or someone of Judaism, if you speak of one’s Christology and yield upon falsehood or conspiracy you will be corrected, I’ve already corrected someone on Islam. I care mostly amount those who take the time to understand the truth the bible brings, and what the early church has went through, even in the face of death and persecution only for you to even quote Bible verses, for it were not for the efforts of such ones, the bible would not be in our hands, our backpacks, our libraries, nowhere at all – for if you are trying to follow the Christ and know who His God is, at least show some respect for where the Scriptures come from in terms of history.

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@Space Merchant , You must type awfully fast :)  We've already discussed the "new creation" in Christ.  I'm sorry you don't get it.  We also have discussed "earthly" Jerusalem, which still boggles my mind.  The fulfillment today is with "New Jerusalem" - the literal Jerusalem has nothing to do with prophecy.  In fact, JWs will tell you the same.  

Your positions that have met approval here have not met the approval of the GB, thus with all JWs.   The Watchtower teaches it is the "one true religion".  That's it, only that religion.  YOU are not part of that perceived one true religion. 

Do you understand...yet?  You are welcome to rant at me all you like, but my views and my belief in Christ and the spiritual "New Jerusalem", holds. If we held the same belief, I may accept your corrections, but we don't.  

I concentrate solely on the Watchtower where the anointed and their companions reside under the rule of a wicked slave.  They receive my message.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

I believe God is the our Father, I believe Jesus is his Son for he is our Messiah/Christ who is like a mighty warrior who is to come and save us soon. I believe what Jesus had commanded the church to do and what he has entrusted, I believe whole heartedly of what the Law of God entails, mainly of which 2 things of which the Laws hang from. I believe that the holy spirit is of God of which helps those to progress spiritually and to learn and to teach, to spread the Great Commission and so forth. I believe in all the efforts the Apostle have done, suffering, attacked and so forth, even their students, just so we can have the Bible in our hands today.

Guess what!  I agree with you!  

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7 hours ago, admin said:

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

 

Because it is a significant sub-theme of the New Testament. There is no NT writer that does not deal with it. Two entire chapters are devoted to it. Jude was about to write a bland letter that would have entered the dustbin of canon history, but

“I found it necessary to write you to urge you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones.  My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to...” and so forth.

One having regard for the Bible can easily make the case that the genuine successor of first-century Christianity will also have voracious apostates, as they did. If they existed then in droves, why not today? Either that or the opposition melted away because Christ succeeded in transforming the world. But that hasn’t really happened, has it?

 

7 hours ago, admin said:

They have MOVED ON.....Try to keep up people 

Possibly they have moved on, but the overall state of the world does not make clear that having ‘moved on’ is for the best. Gadgets have improved, granted, but an overall sense of well-being? Whether ‘keeping up’ in the sense you mean is a good thing is highly debatable.

Furthermore, if you think this is so horrible, show me the civility in the greater political world. Be sure not to miss the ‘gentleman’s disagreement’ involving the Supreme Court today. Show me the love-in between GOP and DEMS, or medical vs alternative, or atheist vs religious person, or scientist vs metaphysics. And make sure to tell me how the Russians and Chinese are allegedly hacking into Western computers so that say a friendly ‘hello.’

it could be argued that you are missing the most significant development of all time, as you lambaste those debating issues of eternity in favor of those squabbling over matters that will only be personally relevant for the few decades until they die.

End of rant.

Having said that, I can easily see how this could drive a guy nuts. Just for the record, I think some participants here are barely sane. I won’t say that I have never used the word ‘apostate’’ but I try to be sparing with it, in favor of such words as ‘opposer’ or ‘detractor’ And I often deliberately try to defuse super-intense threads with what I hope passes for humor.

 I stay primarily because I benefit by testing out lines that I know will be thrown back in my face & refine my own writing thereby, like a scientist studying data. I’ve been able to write a book absolutely unique in several ways in this manner. A writer not only needs a muse. He also needs a villain & there are villains galore here.

It is pretty rough on those who don’t speak the lingo, though. I do appreciate that. I hope that you take it in the right spirit when I jokingly put you entering the annual Conference of Internet Magnificents, casually mentioning your traffic so as to impress the big boys, only to be told ‘Big Deal. They’re all religious nuts. Come back when you have people who are in touch with reality.’

 

 

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10 hours ago, admin said:

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

In my opinion, should this be a correct understanding that the majority in this world that is atheist have no compulsion for religion, then you as the administrator also need to understand the need to allow those in favor or opposition to freely state their opinion without this administration picking sides.

Your statement is quite clear. Then honor your own words by allowing comments such as Bulter to be presented, and if there is an opposing view, allow that presentation to be placed. A neutral observer is what is claimed here.

As a business, that allows a discussion needs to be free to all, not just a selected few. Another observation would be, the use of certain material that goes beyond what the law allows for a debate. A discussion board can have a certain responsibility to eliminate such information from being abused. as seen with commenter witness.

This website seems to be a news outlet. An interesting site that I receive world news. Therefore, precautions would be recommended.

Now, the post “Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses” Trademark

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness  Wt 15/4/15

Does it really matter why this individual left? There are no restrictions made for any individual to stay. That organization is not Scientology that obligates their members to stay. The Bible states free will and choice.

Whatever the motives are for an individual to leave, if it has nothing to do with breaking God’s scripted laws, then to each its own. If an individual wishes to criticize any religion, they have free reign. But, those individuals need to understand, an opposing point of view can be freely made as well. That’s how democracy works in the United States.

I hope this observation doesn’t disqualify me from making future comments.

I will say, it’s refreshing to hear from the owner to stabilize an environment that can become continuous very quickly, Thank you.

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10 hours ago, admin said:

I would just like to state for the record that as the owner of this website... I do not like pejorative labels.

LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.

I realize that all you different religions are free to exercise what you believe in.....

however I would like to push MY OWN POINT of thought that we ALL should try to stop using labels on people.

I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 

Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?

 

And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.

They have MOVED ON.....

Try to keep up people.

This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.

- End of rant.

p.s. - I still use the label SPAMMERS in a pejorative sense. Nobody is perfect. 

Words you mentioned as "pejorative" and "labels" are just words. With words we differentiate things and we give them meaning. In reality, there are no bad words or pejorative, insulting words. There are people, groups of people who give their own new meaning when they apply it to other people or groups of people.

Some word is not obscene or insulting because it consists of certain letters. There is a street words for a sex organ, and there is a medical word for the same thing. None of them is rude. Because they actually mark the same thing.

An example is the word "apostate". It is used in certain circles (such as WTJWorg) to mark people who are members of the JW community but have different religious ideas. And some of these "apostates" remain within the JW community and some leave.
This forum meets people of different religious thoughts, beliefs, belongings. This group on this forum could be called the "interfaith group". :)))

The intention here is not to unite all of these people into a multi-faith community, but to represent, defend, challenge religious ideas. 

Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.

Of course, the words that was apply in text can hurt the feelings of the other. But sometimes this can not be avoided no matter how much an author of the text seeks to be objective .... or unwilling to be.

The fact we living in 21 century does not exclude, not canceled, does not delete important fact that is reason for division - there are always Us and Them. Unfortunately, Nobody can Change This "Primitivism". (even this word "primitivism" has at least two different labels, connotations  :))))

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Words you mentioned as "pejorative" and "labels" are just words. With words we differentiate things and we give them meaning. In reality, there are no bad words or pejorative, insulting words. There are people, groups of people who give their own new meaning when they apply it to other people or groups of people.

Some word is not obscene or insulting because it consists of certain letters. There is a street words for a sex organ, and there is a medical word for the same thing. None of them is rude. Because they actually mark the same thing.

An example is the word "apostate". It is used in certain circles (such as WTJWorg) to mark people who are members of the JW community but have different religious ideas. And some of these "apostates" remain within the JW community and some leave.
This forum meets people of different religious thoughts, beliefs, belongings. This group on this forum could be called the "interfaith group". :)))

The intention here is not to unite all of these people into a multi-faith community, but to represent, defend, challenge religious ideas. 

Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.

Of course, the words that was apply in text can hurt the feelings of the other. But sometimes this can not be avoided no matter how much an author of the text seeks to be objective .... or unwilling to be.

The fact we living in 21 century does not exclude, not canceled, does not delete important fact that is reason for division - there are always Us and Them. Unfortunately, Nobody can Change This "Primitivism". (even this word "primitivism" has at least two different labels, connotations  :))))

Very well written, Fabulous comment. Thank you. 

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4 hours ago, Paul Dedee said:

In my opinion, should this be a correct understanding that the majority in this world that is atheist have no compulsion for religion, then you as the administrator also need to understand the need to allow those in favor or opposition to freely state their opinion without this administration picking sides.

Your statement is quite clear. Then honor your own words by allowing comments such as Bulter to be presented, and if there is an opposing view, allow that presentation to be placed. A neutral observer is what is claimed here.

As a business, that allows a discussion needs to be free to all, not just a selected few. Another observation would be, the use of certain material that goes beyond what the law allows for a debate. A discussion board can have a certain responsibility to eliminate such information from being abused. as seen with commenter witness.

This website seems to be a news outlet. An interesting site that I receive world news. Therefore, precautions would be recommended.

Now, the post “Why John Butler Left Jehovah's Witnesses” Trademark

Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness  Wt 15/4/15

Does it really matter why this individual left? There are no restrictions made for any individual to stay. That organization is not Scientology that obligates their members to stay. The Bible states free will and choice.

Whatever the motives are for an individual to leave, if it has nothing to do with breaking God’s scripted laws, then to each its own. If an individual wishes to criticize any religion, they have free reign. But, those individuals need to understand, an opposing point of view can be freely made as well. That’s how democracy works in the United States.

I hope this observation doesn’t disqualify me from making future comments.

I will say, it’s refreshing to hear from the owner to stabilize an environment that can become continuous very quickly, Thank you.

Paul, I do not know which side of the 'table' you are coming from but I must pick up on one point.

You wrote Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4

The scriptures you have noted here do not, i repeat, do not back up your comment.

Yes Spiritual Israel are the anointed ones, I agree. BUT you have no proof that 'They are assembled in the Watchtower' I am presuming you mean the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Run by the GB of the JW Org. 

The GB have proved themselves to be the wicked slave class not the faithful one. 

Does it really matter why this individual left? YES. I need people to know that I have left the JW Org because of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem earthwide. And i need people to know that I still love God and Jesus Christ. And I am still looking for a way to serve God properly. 

If people realise that I am not critical for the sake of being critical then they might just take me seriously and my comments then could help others. 

I have hope for the JW Org, but my hope would involve the removal of the GB and it seems that could only be arranged 'from above'. God will do whatever He pleases, for whatever reason He sees fit. He will work through His son Jesus Christ. 

If i am to be condemned at Armageddon then so be it, but until that time arrives i will continue to search for a true way to serve God properly. 

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