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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

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On 11/9/2019 at 6:40 AM, Tom Henry said:

Can certain past understanding be revised, yes they can. Especially to accommodate what is happening in the world.


Further examination with respect to understanding, the

Agreed.  The clay and iron mentioned in the feet was correctly understood before....... but the current acrimony between conservatives who are the far right  and the far left (which has been high-jacked by extreme new ideas) is irreconcileably divided.   This is happening in Canada, USA, Europe, Australia and UK. One can gain better insight into a situation as time passes. 

The UN Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030 gives me deeper insight regarding their ( UNs) future plans for the world.  How they are forcing LGBTQ onto most societies by means of UNESCO is more evidence that we are heading very quickly to collapse of morality.  Their plans for the environment gives us insight how far things have progressed regarding the ozone of the earth and biosphere.  176 nations have given over their autonomy to the UN by means of these agreements.  It will just be a matter of time for them to claim they can bring peace and security.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well—maybe they just want the perks, not unlike the hordes in government today.

The more typical saying from people in Christendom who learn about the possibility of heaven is something like this: "I don't care if the Lord just wants to use me as a doormat, I just want to be with Lord because I love him."

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Therefore, at the benign end of the apostasy spectrum are those who realize that apostasy can be a good thing, by definition,

Forgive me, but I cannot read this expression “apostasy spectrum” without thinking of the newfound “autism spectrum” that is all the rage today, as moderns try to come to grips with the fact that, for whatever reason, autism is off the charts today, and so they try to normalize it.

In both cases—apostasy spectrum and autism spectrum—is not the emphasis on what is actually the least helpful? Is not the emphasis on symptoms, whereas it would be both more useful and revealing were it on causes?

With autism, there is vehement disagreement as to causes. Some suggested causes are thought absolutely taboo to the established world view, and so it is symptoms that dominate the discussion. Symptoms are easier than causes to get one’s head around. You can argue till the cows come home about causes, but symptoms are straightforward. Easier to talk about symptoms, therefore, even if less valuable.

So we can talk about the “apostasy spectrum,” and it is all very nice—I do appreciate the insight and work that has gone into writing of it, but it is more helpful to speak of the causes—for there is where one might do something so as to not fall victim to incessant and even bitter complaining.

Most discussions on this forum about congregation discipline consider it from the standpoint of human rights. As such, I will concede that some of them make valid points. But they will never make too much headway with the GB, I think, because the latter are primarily concerned with, as Tom Henry puts it, “God’s rights.” That expression is a little off-base because he is God—his rights are anything he wants them to be, It is better to speak of “God’s requirements,” the way Witness publications do.

God’s requirements are that there should be a people for his name that is absolutely separate from the world—“no part of the world.” This concern of his almost never factors in to discussions here—almost always it is “human rights,” and the unspoken assumption is that if human rights are cared for, God’s rights will be. It is a humanist view that prevails, divorced from spiritual concerns. 

In fact, observing God’s requirements will ultimately work out best for even “human rights” but we do not necessarily recognize that because we are short-sighted. We want what we want now. We are like kids in the car incessantly whining, “Are we there yet?” and at last father whirls around and says, “If you kids don’t stop crying back there, I’m going to stop this car and give you something to cry about!”

No, I think there will be little fundamental change on disfellowshipping because the GB dares not neglect “God’s right’s” to a people for his name separated from the world. Disfellowshipping is the wall to keep alien views out. That is not to say it will not be tweaked, and it is being tweaked. The word itself is not used in congregation announcements for many years. Associating with a disfellowshipped family member, while it may trigger counsel and may exclude one from being viewed as “exemplary” and thus ineligible for congregation office, will not bring the same sanctions as associating with a non-family disfellowshipped person. The situation of those baptized when young is handled by simply cutting them a bit more slack when they err. 

Human rights will never be the driving factor in the Witness organization. God’s requirements will be the focus. The whole concept of human rights is a bit pretentious anyway. For someone to be said to have “rights,” ought you not be able to DO something about it if those rights are violated? Yet, violated “rights” are the norm in today’s world. Even “holding people accountable” and making them “take responsibility” do little to close the gap. They are more media talking points than there are substantial reality. They are too feeble to get all hopped up about.

And yet when we focus on disfellowshipping HERE, we are primarily obsessed with “human rights.”

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Imagine yourself as Lawyer who defending innocent person. But what if you are so clumsy and unprepared and from time to time looking in a bottle. How this can help your client - God? 

I think how God can defend self much better than human will and would do it for Him. An at last, according to Bible that work (defending Fathers rights) Jesus already finished very successfully.

The common definition can only be applied to mental illness or mental disorder. Once again, these definitions are “behavioral” (uncontrollable) in extent. Mentally diseased is an “implied” condition (controllable). Perhaps psychology is not understood by many, however, it should make a difference with those not willing to focus on the true intent of the Watchtower articles. I wouldn’t expect them to.

With respect to the comment above. I do agree, God is capable of defending himself better than humans. Unfortunately, humans tend to argue the very existence of God and the authority God places on earth for “all” of us. There should be no doubt to any Christian, God holds structured governments within secular and spiritual. We should always remember, we are servants not to argue with the ones God has given authority over us. 2 Thessalonians 3:3

In that, God will defend us as loyal servants.

It only becomes a conflict when humans allow the deceptive nature of the God of this world influence us to mentally think otherwise. To use that influence as a distraction. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Therefore, I don’t believe witnesses have used Bible knowledge as a tool for superiority. What witnesses do take comfort on, they are willing to take time from their personal lives to have an exact knowledge of Bible Truth. That is not a simple task, and they do not need to feel ashamed for it.

On the internet, people don’t realize, many of the information posted by other religious groups have a history with Jehovah witnesses as former members. The same can be said about the information posted by Bible Students.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

The UN Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030 gives me deeper insight regarding their ( UNs) future plans for the world.  How they are forcing LGBTQ onto most societies by means of UNESCO is more evidence that we are heading very quickly to collapse of morality.  Their plans for the environment gives us insight how far things have progressed regarding the ozone of the earth and biosphere.  176 nations have given over their autonomy to the UN by means of these agreements.  It will just be a matter of time for them to claim they can bring peace and security.

We as witnesses understand the collapse and the catastrophic nature humans are headed toward. Scripture states to stay alert and keep on the watch.

The real focus should be on spiritual advancements and how to apply them in our daily lives. We have full control with that, while we cannot control the other.


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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

 is something like this: "I don't care if the Lord just wants to use me as a doormat, I just want to be with Lord because I love him."

After you have done all these things, say, “We are good-for-nothing doormats. What we have done is what we ought to have done.”

I love the (actual) expression. When you do as you should, you don’t go strutting around with chest puffed out. You downplay your own role. It is somewhat like the verse used in last week’s Watchtower study: 

“by God’s undeserved kindness I am what I am. And his undeserved kindness to me was not in vain, but I labored more than all of them; yet it was not I, but the undeserved kindness of God that is with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:10) 

It is the same, really, as Jesus’s saying. The gift is not his, but God’s. Still, he will not waste it, but will put it to good use. Afterwards he will say, “I am a good-for-nothing slave. What I have done is only what I ought to have done.”

It is hyperbole. The Master doesn’t really consider us “good-for-nothing.” Jesus used hyperbole all the time. It was one of the tools in his teaching toolbox. It has the added advantage that those of common sense and humility instantly get the point, and those without those fine qualities do not—they are more inclined to harp on the Lord thinking his people “good-for-nothing” and how that violates their human rights.

Sometimes I even think Trump’s tweets, with their numerous spelling errors, may—probably inadvertently, be taking a page from this playbook. Maybe they are just his form of “hyperbole.” When he tweets that North Korea has launched all its nuclear missels, people of common sense will run for the hills. People without that quality will run to their keyboards to point out that the idiot can’t even spell the word right.

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Forgive me, but I cannot read this expression “apostasy spectrum” without thinking of the newfound “autism spectrum” that is all the rage today

That was intended. Also I believe the autism spectrum is very useful in helping to understand autism in its various forms. Math is also all the rage in schools today, but it doesn't mean we should reject it.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Is not the emphasis on symptoms, whereas it would be both more useful and revealing were it on causes?

For those already suffering, it is much more practical to deal with symptoms. In the long run, yes, it is much more useful and revealing to put the emphasis on causes.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So we can talk about the “apostasy spectrum,” and it is all very nice—I do appreciate the insight and work that has gone into writing of it, but it is more helpful to speak of the causes—for there is where one might do something so as to not fall victim to incessant and even bitter complaining.

You might notice that I was just brainstorming about the various "levels" of benign and malignant apostasy so that we would think about the ways we judge others. I think it's revealing, and not necessarily in a bad way, that two persons can spout the same apostate views about the Bible or the Watchtower Society, and only one of them gets disfellowshipped. The other still says the same things but he will often get full association with his Witness family and relatives. I think it shows the desire to have a form of natural affection, which by definition is "natural." (2 Timothy 3:3). I think some of us are here are good Witnesses without many qualms at all about association (online at least) with those who have clearly apostasized.

On the "spectrum," so to speak, I actually spoke a lot about causes, and very little about the symptoms. Of course, I wasn't too specific about either, as I was just trying to come up with some sample categories to show just how the types can be all over the place, and sometimes our own treatment of persons, and the Society's treatment too, is necessarily inconsistent. 

And one of the points is that we have a personal responsibility to watch out for our spirituality, and can't just follow what others tell us to do in every case. Imagine the possibilities if some Witnesses showed a lot more love to persons in the @Witness household, who were not DF'd, and how this might result in a good Witness (no pun intended). Or imagine the possibilities if some Witnesses decided to associate with persons in the @Witness household without any concern to their own spirituality, and became "infected" with thought that resulted in doubt and a lack of faith. The point is that we are sometimes on our own, and must always be careful about anyone and anything that we associate with. Jesus associated with tax collectors, but we are also given a Biblical responsibility to treat some in the congregation as tax collectors, even some who might be called a brother.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Most discussions on this forum about congregation discipline consider it from the standpoint of human rights. As such, I will concede that some of them make valid points. But they will never make too much headway with the GB

Hard to say. Personally I think there is room for some individual conscience in a lot of areas that are currently matters of "legalism." This does not mean that anyone can expect to depend completely on their own conscience without appropriate counsel when it seems to affect their spirituality. But the GB have given a lot of thought to human rights, and have made a lot of progress in many nations of the world to defend right to assembly, right to our own religious practices, right to preach from door to door, right to "demand" blood alternatives, right to be seen as ministers, or as a legal religion.

To our long-term benefit, GB members have acknowledged human rights more and more in interviews about child abuse, child endangerment, education, corporal punishment (especially seen before judges in custody cases, presentations before the ARC, questions fielded by the "PR"/correspondence departments, etc). In a practical way, some of the practice hasn't caught up with the "human rights" rhetoric yet.

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Norway is the great catalyst that will force the GB to start thinking about basic human rights, as currently there is a lot of discussion in the Norwegian Government about " ... Why are we giving the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Norwegian dollars (Kroners) every year from Tax money for their charities ... for EACH and every of the approximately 112,000 JWs in Norway (paraphrased), when they prohibit their members to vote"... which THEY consider to be an inalienable, and non-negotiable human right of all peoples, everywhere.

The WTB&TS is currently being governed by the Lawyers, Accountants, and the Finances department, with the GB not admitting being personally responsible for ANYTHING.

What we consider "reasonable", they consider EXTREMIST, and many European nations give tax money to ALL legitimate churches, without restriction on how they spend it.

By violating what these governments' and peoples' basic understanding on what constitutes extremism, soon, if not already, it is going to affect the flow of cash into the Society's Treasury.

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

In a practical way, some of the practice hasn't caught up with the "human rights" rhetoric yet.

One of several major concerns of the Governing Body is to not hemorrhage money, as it has been doing for years in the constant Child Sexual Abuse court cases.

THIS is what will drive any change .... not love ... not justice ...not fairness .... MONEY!

By the way .... has the Society recently decided that voting is a matter of personal conscience?

What I have read is so "weasel worded", I cannot tell.



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Wow, Having missed only two hours on here, I am now 3 pages behind. Makes it rather difficult to keep up and even more so when the subject changes so much on each topic. 

I do think there is a vast difference in what the 'early Christians' said and did as opposed to what the J W Org / GB say and do now.  Someone mentioned about  'those not with us now that were formerly with us', as part of a scripture (you see i do find it difficult to relate to it all ) . But the scripture was concerning those 'early Christians' which were inspired of God and of the Anointed. They would have known 'pure' truth from the Hebrew scriptures, and also have been guided directly by God through Christ and through Holy Spirit. 

How can anyone relate that to a Governing Body that admit that they are not inspired of God ? How can you relate that to an Organisation that is so big, that the Governing Body is totally out of touch with it ?  A Governing Body that admit that they do wrong (err), as well as make mistakes.  

Having followed this 'blog' for a long time, I've seen / read, many here that have given proof of 'mistakes' / wrong doing by the Governing Body, the Writing Department, Elders et al.  So how can a person compare a scripture which relates to the pure worship of God through Christ, of those first century Christians. It makes no sense. In the time of the disciples/ apostles, true worship was direct, because the 'group of people' involved was small. The Greek scriptures were written directly by those actually hands on, doing daily work, and having direct guidance. What can we say now ? No one is inspired by God. No one is pure. The Governing Body give themselves the tittle of F & D S, but it proves nothing, because they get so much wrong.  We've also seen by written examples here on this blog , that the elders do not show the love and care for the 'flock'. 

I do however like the idea of the 'Apostasy spectrum' because the word apostate is banded about by those in the J W org just as an excuse not to talk to or mix with someone, even if said J W knows nothing about the reason someone is no longer attending meetings or has left the Org. 

I would talk personally with Arauna when she says, a person can only be an apostate to the truth. My answer is, But truth changes week by week in J W Org. 

Mr Rook, I thought the Charity Commission here in the UK were thinking of stopping the 'allowances' too, but it hasn't happened yet. 


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19 hours ago, Arauna said:

So you acknowledge that the majority of Christians take the emblems without knowing

I acknowledge how i don't know what they know and think.

But what i know in general, is that Christendom talking about going to Paradise after death and having wonderful life there, i didn't hear they expected to be Kings and Priests  :)))

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      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
    • By Jack Ryan
      POLK COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – A Polk County mother is outraged after she claims a school bus driver used her son to spread hate. Natalie Encarnacion told News Channel 8 that the bus driver, now identified as Violeta Jacobo, told her seven-year-old son he would go to hell for supporting his mom’s same-sex relationship. One afternoon, in the beginning of February, her son had missed his bus from Alta Vista Elementary School, so a different bus driver took him home. “He mentioned [to the bus driver] he was hoping his two mom’s wouldn’t be upset that he was home so late,” Encarnacion said. “She said ‘whoa God doesn’t like that,’ then she went on and on telling him how he wouldn’t make it into heaven and there is a such thing as hell.” She claims the bus driver even sent him home with a Jehovah’s Witnesses card, and hate in his heart. “Later that night, he explained why we should not be together anymore,” Encarnacion said. “He is absolutely questioning this now, something we have so smoothly transitioned into and never had any issues with.” Encarnacion said she contacted the school board and never heard back. She also contacted DCF. She told News Channel 8 the agency looked into the incident, but closed the case when they did not find any neglect. According to Polk County School Board Spokesperson Jason Geary, they are still reviewing the matter. However, they have spoken to the bus driver and instructed her that she must follow the code of ethical conduct. According to Geary, Violeta Jacobo is an active bus driver, employed since August 31, 2012. There is no past disciplinary action in her personnel file. “It’s shocking and it’s infuriating to know that nobody is doing anything about it. Just the thought that she could do this to other kids.” Encarnacion said she hopes something is done so she can’t do this to another family. “I am extremely devastated. My home life and everything is being affected by this. My son is rebelling against our relationship and it’s just putting everything into question. It’s really upsetting and I hope nobody ever has to go through this,” she said. “This has put hate in his heart.”

    • By Michelle
      How ridiculous. Anyone asking such questions is not reading the material nor either listening to or attending meetings. Uniforms? Smacks of apostate individuals spreading falsehoods. 
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