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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

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52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t think that we can see it here. In fact, JWI has said just that about the GB, or something very close. 

This is the second time you have addressed JWI and I have interrupted before he can answer. Ideally, I won’t do it again. But you make very strong statements on things you do not understand. You had no idea the role of the workbook, for example, and yet made the most ludicrous charge about it. 

If this is going to be your gig, it may be that you should attend congregation meetings for awhile, or even accept a Bible study, so that you can familiarize yourself with what you have decided to weigh in on.

@TrueTomHarley  Yes My Harley you do poke your nose in :) .

I have attended enough congregation meetings to know that on a Thursday eve' here in the UK, congregants are given instruction with demonstrations as to what and how to present material on the doors. Magazine demonstrations are regular items. 

As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference. It can therefore be seen as indoctrination of GB / JW Org thinking. If it was purely a JW answering questions asked by a member of the public, and using the Bible to answer those questions, that could be called a Bible study. As an example of this, if you have copies of JW books from the 1960's / 70's, you will notice great changes in 'doctrines' / teachings from then up till now. But if you have a Bible from back 100 years, God's word never changes. 

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3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference

In school, I studied math. But I refused a textbook because that was not really math, but was a book about math. 

I also studied science. But I refused a textbook because that was not really science, but was a book about science. 

What! Those frauds were trying to indoctrinate me!  But I was too clever for them.

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Yes My Harley you do poke your nose i

Well....you do have me there.

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yet what did Jesus also say about some of the same leaders?

Matthew 23:2-4 says: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.…

We can still follow, even "obey" religious leaders, even when we know they are very imperfect.

Any organized religious structure will end up being led by men who are imperfect, and therefore by men that we can never trust 100 percent, no matter how well they think they are doing. This is really what we must always expect: "Put not your trust in earthling man (even princes/nobles) in whom no salvation belongs" "Let God be found true though every man be found a liar."

…for they do not practice what they preach”.  They were teachers of the law, and it was God’s law that they were not practicing. They had veered away from purely teaching the Word of God, resulting in spiritual immorality. So they, too, were “Jezebels”, who tacked on their own laws and traditions that were to be observed by the people.   Prov 30:5,6

“You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.”  Deut 4:2

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”

45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.

The entire time Jesus preached, he told the Jews to “come to me”, which would require leaving a corrupt system of leadership.  Matt 11:28

“Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matt 15:14

That system was abandoned by God. Matt 23:38  Jesus taught that he brought fulfillment of the law through his teachings. Matt 5:17-20  If any anointed one fails to lead people to Christ, and instead lead people to themselves and their expectations of obedience to what they say; they too, are “jezebels”. 

19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19-20

Has the GB relaxed the commandments God established with his anointed priesthood?  Yes.  2 Chron 13:9; 23:6,7  Does the GB practice justice?  No, that is even recognized in the court systems.    Do they follow the form of a perfect “religion”?  No. Have they been exposed as liars?  Yes.  Do we have any obligation to adhere to their teachings?  No. Jer 23:16  Has their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees?  Absolutely not.  

 The reality when following Christ is that an earthly organized structure patterned after any other religion in the world, is not needed to worship God.  John 4:24  We can trust Christ and the Father to direct us, if we have faith.   

 

 

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Just to mention one thought: churches teach the immortality of the soul - so even if they profess that they believe in the sacrifice of Jesus ..... they do not teach that Jesus "really" died.

 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

These CORE teachings of truth are not adjusted. Other things regarding prophecy, better understanding of illustrations etc time related teachings, have been adjusted..... but the core teachings - which make us totally different to all other religions  - is core teachings of truth from the bible.

In one hand this way of reasoning is valid. But, of course i need to notice this too. We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! 

For example, blood transfusion.

1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood.

2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions.

What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories? The 1) is command, mandatory and disobey such teaching brings you dfd and JHVH judgment. The 2) is not command, but your personal choice and no one will ask you to give report on your decision. 

Also, i would like to incorporate in this conversation and reasoning another element. But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned. ...... But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Law to become void. - Luke 16 two versions

In this Jesus' words i see just opposite of common custom when WT Society and elders interpret, and you repeat it here, how some teachings are core and some are not. Why? Another reasoning we also find in Bible. If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. - Luke 16 With this looking on subject about teachings, that some  people consider to be somehow small or smallest in  significance and value, we see how Jesus' perspective is not on same level that people have, about what is big and important and what is small and unimportant.

With this what i wrote, I can't agree with explanation you offered, how some WT Society teachings are more important than others. Because, Jesus words showed me different way on how to look on details.

Also, as conclusion, few JW doctrines that are supposedly the truth, can't save you from judgement about others doctrines that are supposedly lie.  :))    But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. - Mat 12

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51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! 

Of course they do! It is true with any discipline.

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For example, blood transfusion.

1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood.

2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions.

What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories?

The first follows from a clear Bible law to “abstain from blood,” one of the few carryovers from the Mosaic law.

The second is an adaption to modern technology and reflects an unwillingness to dictate people’s consciences. Some will say that even the tiniest fraction is blood. Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.”

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken

Yes. And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it. It is only you who expect perfection from these guys. Witnesses don’t. They didn’t sign on like kids expecting Santa Claus. 

(Plus, you would have to define what you mean by “empty.” Just because something is modified in the light of new developments does not mean the original was “empty.”)

Always the quarreling point will be the divine/human interface. It was even true with Judas. He and God were tight—there were no problems there! But that fellow that claimed to be the Messiah was not at all what Judas had been expecting. And those yo-yos he was attracting—don’t even go there.

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34 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Also, as conclusion, few JW doctrines that are supposedly the truth, can't save you from judgement about others doctrines that are supposedly lie.  :))    But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. - Mat 12

Excellent statement.  

It is the "word of God" that lives and imparts power, and discerns the "thoughts and intents of the heart". Heb 4:12  Can the words of men do that?  Can men judge another's spiritual outcome through their imposed "words"?  The organization does just that.  Disfellowshipping, a spiritual "killing",  is largely based on organizational doctrine.  Rev 13:15   Only God's Word is our judge, as stated in the scripture you supplied.   Men's doctrine does not contain life.   

 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.  Heb 4:13

 

13 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it. It is only you who expect perfection from these guys. Witnesses don’t. They know they are people.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23

Do the scriptures say that God's will includes following men's doctrine?

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42 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it.

That’s a little too flippant. I’ll walk it back. @Srecko Sostar @4Jah2me

Even @Witness

“To he who has been given much, much will be expected” is more like it, and the GB operates, in my view, in harmony with that.

Sometimes in pushing back, one overreacts. The idea that I was trying to convey is that humans are not perfect, even those with responsibility, and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that as a given.

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In school, I studied math. But I refused a textbook because that was not really math, but was a book about math. 

I also studied science. But I refused a textbook because that was not really science, but was a book about science. 

What! Those frauds were trying to indoctrinate me!  But I was too clever for them.

Well....you do have me there.

@TrueTomHarley  You honestly do make yourself sound stupid with some things you write. (AS you have said about me)

What is supposed to be, or is 'advertised as' a Bible study, should be a study of the Bible. Would you have refused to use a Bible in a BIBLE STUDY ?   

The books used in a so called 'bible study' are books written by the GB or Writing Dept' of JW Org / Watchtower, and are therefore only aimed at getting people into the JW Org.  Add to that, that the books are continually changing the teachings, doctrines, beliefs, whichever words you wish to use. So much so that some books get withdrawn or at least no longer discussed in public.  Lets harp back a few years when the teaching was 'each creative day is 7,000 years long'. Many people would have studied a book saying exactly that. Now the Bible has never said that has it ?  And the Org no longer seem to believe that either. So there is one tiny bit of evidence that JW Org books are not fully reliable, and cannot be a substitute for Gods' word.  

Maths is maths so basic maths shouldn't change. 'Science', well as it's part of the world in a lot of respects, it changes constantly.  BUT GOD'S WORD THE BIBLE DOES NOT CHANGE., that's the point. 

 

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That’s a little too flippant. I’ll walk it back. @Srecko Sostar @4Jah2me

Even @Witness

“To he who has been given much, much will be expected” is more like it, and the GB operates, in my view, in harmony with that.

Sometimes in pushing back, one overreacts. The idea that I was trying to convey is that humans are not perfect, even those with responsibility, and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that as a given.

I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are.  I wonder if there is actually any holy spirit flowing down from above to your GB / Writing Dept' / Lawyers /  Elders et al. 

I do wonder in fact, if  'much has been given' to the GB, or have they in fact, stolen it.  JW's (well maybe in your opinion anyway) seem to forgive many of the GB's mistakes, deliberate wrongdoings, man made rules etc. But I have noticed on here that even JW's (or those that appear to be JW's) seem not to believe or agree with much of the GB's 'new light'.  

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22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are.

I did note in our assigned Bible reading for this week the 2 John 4 verse: “I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth.”

He did not find “all” of them doing so. He found “some” of them doing so. And what of the ones who were not?

If the atmosphere was anything like it is here, the brothers taking the lead were being blamed for all of them. Even the fact that they are now regarded as “inspired” would not have saved them in the eyes of their critics, who did not believe it for a second.

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19 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The first follows from a clear Bible law to “abstain from blood,” one of the few carryovers from the Mosaic law.

The second is an adaption to modern technology and reflects an unwillingness to dictate people’s consciences. Some will say that even the tiniest fraction is blood. Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.”

Hi Tom. 

I agree how we need to be "adapted". But that sounds also as in science books that explaining "evolution theory". Species were "adaptable" and .... survived. :)))

Do you suggest and say how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired  intervention according to modern Technological progress?  And not only to technology, because why to stop on only such adaptations. Why you not going further and say, how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired  intervention according to modern progress in Culture and Thoughts

You said how GB is unwilling to dictate people's conscience? What is base for your perception? GB made religious teachings and sorted them in 2 lines. They decide how things in one line are mandatory and in second are free choice. By such act they had already, prior to any of your attempt to make decision, made decision in your name and cancelled/ annulled  activity and pursuit of your conscience. If we have legal regulation, than we have no need for conscience. Conscience was designed for other purpose, not to be under Power of Law. 

What shall we going to mix? :))

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    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      A major front page headline and two page article in Sweden's Metro newspaper.
      The Metro newspaper is a free newspaper that distributes 550,000-copies daily with a daily readership of some 1,153,000 people
      http://www.tmnww.com/metro-network/metro-europe/metro-sweden
      HBTQ = Homosexual, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer.
      Defector: Jehovah's film dangerous to the children
      Jehovah's Witnesses Show Movies That Disregard Children's HBTQ - Missing permission
      I'm compared to pedophiles and killers - to the joy of the sect
    • By Jan Malviluoto
      Swedish police investigates, among other things, film shown at regional convention day 3 
      I don't have time to translate this now because I have to go now for the 2nd day of the special convention in Oslo

      https://www.metro.se/artikel/efter-metros-avslöjande-om-jehovas-vittnen-polisen-inleder-förundersökning-om-hets-mot-folkgrupp
    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
    • By Jack Ryan
      POLK COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – A Polk County mother is outraged after she claims a school bus driver used her son to spread hate. Natalie Encarnacion told News Channel 8 that the bus driver, now identified as Violeta Jacobo, told her seven-year-old son he would go to hell for supporting his mom’s same-sex relationship. One afternoon, in the beginning of February, her son had missed his bus from Alta Vista Elementary School, so a different bus driver took him home. “He mentioned [to the bus driver] he was hoping his two mom’s wouldn’t be upset that he was home so late,” Encarnacion said. “She said ‘whoa God doesn’t like that,’ then she went on and on telling him how he wouldn’t make it into heaven and there is a such thing as hell.” She claims the bus driver even sent him home with a Jehovah’s Witnesses card, and hate in his heart. “Later that night, he explained why we should not be together anymore,” Encarnacion said. “He is absolutely questioning this now, something we have so smoothly transitioned into and never had any issues with.” Encarnacion said she contacted the school board and never heard back. She also contacted DCF. She told News Channel 8 the agency looked into the incident, but closed the case when they did not find any neglect. According to Polk County School Board Spokesperson Jason Geary, they are still reviewing the matter. However, they have spoken to the bus driver and instructed her that she must follow the code of ethical conduct. According to Geary, Violeta Jacobo is an active bus driver, employed since August 31, 2012. There is no past disciplinary action in her personnel file. “It’s shocking and it’s infuriating to know that nobody is doing anything about it. Just the thought that she could do this to other kids.” Encarnacion said she hopes something is done so she can’t do this to another family. “I am extremely devastated. My home life and everything is being affected by this. My son is rebelling against our relationship and it’s just putting everything into question. It’s really upsetting and I hope nobody ever has to go through this,” she said. “This has put hate in his heart.”

      http://wfla.com/2017/03/07/polk-woman-claims-school-bus-driver-told-7-year-old-son-he-would-go-to-hell-for-moms-same-sex-relationship/
    • By Michelle
      How ridiculous. Anyone asking such questions is not reading the material nor either listening to or attending meetings. Uniforms? Smacks of apostate individuals spreading falsehoods. 
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