Jump to content

Jack Ryan

JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

Topic Summary


Last Reply



Jack Ryan -
Space Merchant -

Top Posters

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

and cannot be a substitute for Gods' word.  

I don't ever remember anyone saying, or thinking, or insinuating that JW publications are a substitute for God's word. Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't ever remember anyone saying, or thinking, or insinuating that JW publications are a substitute for God's word. Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

@Anna I think you miss the point. In the so called bible study, more time is given to the book than is given to God's word.  And the book is uninspired, so only man's viewpoint.  Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true. But as I've said twice already, the books are to get people into the JW Org, and the information / doctrines / ideas,  change quite often, so cannot be counted on as true. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I did note in our assigned Bible reading for this week the 2 John 4 verse: “I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth.”

He did not find “all” of them doing so. He found “some” of them doing so. And what of the ones who were not?

If the atmosphere was anything like it is here, the brothers taking the lead were being blamed for all of them. Even the fact that they are now regarded as “inspired” would not have saved them in the eyes of their critics, who did not believe it for a second.

 @TrueTomHarley    Talking of blood you said "Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.” " 

Whereas the blood was already mixed surely and was full blood, but it has been broken down from that mixture.  A bit like un-mixing your cake. 

And I'm not quite sure who you are referring to above, as to  ' they are now regarded as “inspired ' .  Do you mean the first century Christians or the present GB ?  

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anna said:

Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.


50 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true.

She puts a bug in the ear of the chemistry teacher to tell them it is okay.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 I think you miss the point. In the so called bible study, more time is given to the book than is given to God's word.  And the book is uninspired, so only man's viewpoint.  Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true. But as I've said twice already, the books are to get people into the JW Org, and the information / doctrines / ideas,  change quite often, so cannot be counted on as true. 

I think you've been missing the point all those years ago when you started studying with JWs.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

@JW Insider you shared fine thoughts and showed your awareness and understanding of objections and questions other people accented and saw as serious items that need to be put on table for discussion and challenged. That is one of reason i like to read your comments which are respectful to other people, even when you are in a disagreement with them, about subject.    

55 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I hope you can see that, even with JWs out of the picture, you could probably accept this entire situation as a possible, and even normal, Christian congregation.

What you described, can be also applicable for many human activities. For example, people who have common interest in producing food and living in some rural area, joined together. Looking for ways how support each other and care about each other and shield each other from outside bad influence, greedy merchants, natural disasters and so on. Well, in technical way, things can be looked as same. People, in that small community, will be facing inside problems and making regulations, rules and laws. 

How far will they go? To proclaim such rules as "God given"? Would they stick to rules at any cost or would be, as TTH said, "adaptive to modern technology". Or, not only to technology :))) 

Of course, we always have fear and potentially difficult situation in both directions - to stick with old things, as well to accept new and unknown. Burden is heavier, because in all this we (they) want to PUSH God as reason, motive and result.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

@JW Insider Yes I'm angry and I'm confused, as are others that trusted the JW Org for years, only to find out things that the GB / Org does that cannot surely be approved of by God. 

Unfortunately you use that word apostates again, because JW's are brainwashed with that word by GB / Elders.  I do wonder is there ever a meeting in a KH where that word isn't mentioned, either from platform of congregation. Can you not just accept that some of us are seeking TRUTH. 

Quote "Of course, I've brought up some of these same challenges myself, ...."  "I believe that we need some doctrinal adjustment"

" I'm not exactly defending the GB position against your challenges. "    (I come to bury Caesar not to praise him). :) 

" Yes. The GB dictate to the congregations and, unless the dictate is seen as unconscionable or unscriptural, the members of the congregations are expected to obey. Naturally, this can go too far,... "  (and it does go to far hence people complaints).

" GB's request to be trusted while admitting that some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then.. "

I believe the Watchtower comment was that the "GB are not inspired, so they can 'make mistakes and err' "

I picked up on this because the word 'err' can mean make mistakes or deliberately do wrong. 

But they would have written 'make mistakes and make mistakes'  so the word 'err' in this case must have been meant to deliberately do wrong.  Add to this that you are saying that "some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then.. "  

So if your GB are the F&DS  FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE,  why would God or Christ give them false information, or why would they be so indiscreet as to 'run ahead' of God given information. They admit to not being inspired, we agree on that much, surely they should be, as you would say, 'spirit directed' ?   Do you thing the 'overlapping generations' is spirit directed ? 

By the way, in your hypothesis, I didn't see the mention of God's holy spirit playing a part even once. 

I think I'm actually 'offended' (that not being exactly the word I'm looking for but.) by the words Governing Body. I hate when people use that to describe the first century overseers. Governing surely means to be in charge of, whereas those at the top should not be 'lording it over the congregation of God'. I would think a different title would be more appropriate.  What is your opinion on that ? 

"guardians of doctrine." didn't the Catholic church once use that expression ? So much so that they didn't allow people to have the Bible.....  But JW's are allowed to have their own Bibles and to do private study. However if JW's come to their own conclusion about certain scriptures, they must not share that with other JW's or it may be seen as 'causing a division in the congregation'. :) I find it funny, sorry.  It's like, yes read the Bible yourself but only believe what we say. 

It is now just after 12 noon here in UK. I need lunch and coffee (just to show you that I'm actually human). I could write tons more, such as the GB being 7 of the 8 American, whereas it could be more men from different countries. Or , such as the GB now being famous earth wide, but then telling the rest of the Anointed to not even contact each other. The GB saying only they are the F&DS, where as it was once the whole of the Anointed being the F&DS.  Thelist goes on.

And the fact that you are @JW Insider   A JW but giving out info about the GB and it's Org, so you cannot be completely happy with it yourself. Physically in but possibly spiritually out. Have a good day. 








Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Yes I'm angry and I'm confused, as are others that trusted the JW Org for years

There's trust as in the type of trust you have in a trusted friend, and blind trust in someone who turned out not to be what you thought they were. I don't think of the organization as the religion we trust in. True religion is helping people who we can best help - materially, spiritually, emotionally -- with the proper unselfish, loving motivation, and therefore without spot from this world. An organization, i.e., a publishing house, researchers, coordinators, a legal department, etc., are just tools that a group of sincere Christians might be expected to utilize for a more efficient method of getting the word out in the midst of a complex world. It's not something to trust blindly as if it is Christianity, or even as if it represents true Christianity.

(These are my opinions, of course.)

I think that a lot of persons get baptized as Witnesses with a kind of naive view that the organization is more than it really is. This might even be true of new GB members who are asked to join that particular committee of elders. Perhaps they are surprised at the difference between reality and expectation. But I think they are better prepared, since they have already worked at various levels of the organization.

I didn't mean to call myself JW Insider here. I intended to use "The Bible's Advocate" but when I joined someone was making a claim that was easily clarified by someone who had worked directly with members of the GB before. I had worked with members of the GB from 1976 to 1982. I worked directly for a member of the GB from about 1979 to 1982. I planned to tell some of the stories from that period, and therefore called myself "JW Insider" and allowed it to stick, in spite of some unintended implications.

But I mention this because if a person can work with (and around) some of these same persons for a few years, then they are already prepared for an experience that is quite different from the expectation of the average Witness. They have seen them in a bad mood, they have seen them curse and yell, they have seen them make mistakes, they have seen their prejudices, seen them connive, possibly even be dishonest. I have seen all these things among a couple of them, but I'm obviously talking about exceptions to their usual conduct and demeanor. And for MOST of the members that I knew, I never saw any of these things, they always came across as perfect "saints." But I would not have been surprised to learn of a different side, because of what I had seen in a very few others, even if I only saw it rarely.

I also had an advantage of an uncle who was a circuit overseer, and a grandmother and grandfather who seemed to know all the "big shots" from headquarters. (My great grandfather was a Chicago Bible Student who traveled with Russell and spoke at conventions with him.) But most of these relatives were apt to say things like, "Jehovah puts half of us here to test the other half," when referring to some of these same persons. Before going to Bethel, I heard a Circuit Overseer evoke laughter from another by asking, "Can you imagine how the Apostle Paul would have blown up if anyone told him he had to keep all these numbers [records] on everyone?"

So, I probably come at some of these human imperfections from a different perspective than most. I'm hardly surprised at anything. My grandparents who knew Rutherford thought he was sleazy. My table head at Bethel had a personal "hatred" of him. But Russell himself was apparently dishonest, too, sometimes. Both Russell and Rutherford weren't defined by these errors, because their greater goal was to spread the word about the Kingdom hope amidst expectations of the imminent end. And now, we've gotten rid of most of that chronology rhetoric and spend more time highlighting the positive, life-changing aspects of the message. And I see a great value, like a pearl, in the overall set of teachings we stand for. And I do tend to fall back on how the Israelites had asked for a king and got a range of kings, from evil to good, but none perfect, of course.

I am out for the rest of the day without much access, so I won't spend much time revisiting issues already covered. And I know the answers won't be satisfactory anyway. I should also say that I hope you don't lose your spirituality. Many exJWs do. Also, I wouldn't make too much of the fact that I used the word "apostate" when referring to the challenges you offer. I don't think of you as apostate as long as you are in a stage, as you describe, of anger and confusion. That could be understandable. I would hope you could see that there is a beautiful baby in that bathwater before you throw it all out.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Jack Ryan
      Amber Scorah is author of the memoir Leaving the Witness. Growing up in the Jehovah's Witness faith, Scorah moved to mainland China to become an underground missionary. In China, she came to question these beliefs and left the religion. Shunned by family and friends as an apostate, Scorah was alone in Shanghai and thrown into a world she had only known from the periphery, with no education or support system. After growing up in the Jehovah's Witness faith, Amber learned Mandarin Chinese and moved to Mainland China to become an underground missionary. In China, encountering a new culture and making friends outside the faith for the first time, Amber came to question the beliefs she had been taught from childhood and ended up leaving the religion. Amber later moved to New York City, where she began a new life. Several years later, her three-month old son died on his first day in childcare. After this tragedy, Amber became a parental leave advocate. Combining forces with a Republican mother, their bipartisan efforts brought the cause of parental leave to the forefront of the 2016 presidential campaign. She was named one of the 100 most influential people in Brooklyn culture by Brooklyn Magazine. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Believer, The Boston Globe, The Cut, The Globe and Mail and USA Today
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Dutch Parliament has accepted a motion in which is called on the Dutch government to ensure proper care and guidance for apostates.
      I wonder how the Dutch governement is going to act on this motion.
      Proposed 26 September 2019
      The Chamber,
      having heard the deliberations,
      noting that people from orthodox religious communities may encounter a great deal of resistance from their environment if they choose to abandon certain precepts or their faith;
      whereas feelings of loneliness, exclusion and sadness for what is lost can cause a grieving process that people need help with;
      whereas feelings of loneliness, exclusion and sorrow for what has been lost can cause a process of mourning, which people need help with;
      calls on the government to ensure proper care and guidance of apostates, and moves on to the order of the day.
      Van Kooten-Arissen
    • By The Librarian
      • Jehovah’s Witnesses and Biblical Discussion Group
      • Loyal followers of Jehovah’s Organisation JW (please note the ‘s’ instead of ‘z’ in title)
      • Jehovah’s Witnesses Come Out of Her My People
      • Jehovah Witness End Time Prophecy
      • JW Preachers of God’s Kingdom
      • Walk With Jehovah
      • AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND EX-JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES (also Canadian, Portugal, New England, New York, NY Capitol Region, NORTH DAKOTA, ONTARIO, PENNSYLVANIA, Pittsburgh, RHODE ISLAND, SOUTH AFRICA, United Kingdom, U.S. Southern, WASHINGTON, )
      • Silver Sword, New World Translation
      • Jehovah’s Witnesses History and Beliefs
      • YHWH JHVH Jehowah, Jehovah, Yeshuah and Jesus is God the Father
      • Jehovah’s Witnesses Worldwide (With Lex Gerald Oineseb Quibuyen as an admin)
      • JW Answers
      • JW Awake
      • The Vast Apostate Army
      • Theocratic ministry school
      • “This Generation Will Not Pass Away’ 100 Year Anniversary
      • JHWH/YHWH
      • ANY group with the following people in them, either members or admins:
      Barry Martin
      Augustin Astaciao
      Barbara Anderson
      Timothy Schultz
      Wilbur Schultz
      Christian Freedom
      Craig Perry Mason Stevens
      Marina Lopez
      Roy Milton
      Sheryl Lamb
      Sylvia J. Smith
      Zecora Sparlock (also known as Captain Sparlock, or any name with Sparlock in it)
      Brenda Lee
      Jim Moon
      Adam Pryzblyz (or similar spelling)
      Mimi Doria
      Thomas miner
      Wendy Scott
    • By Witness
      It begins benignly, truthfully, like this:
      Wt. 1882, pgs 71-71 – “BEWARE OF ‘ORGANIZATION’. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. DO NOT SEEK TO BIND OTHERS’ CONSCIENCES, AND DO NOT PERMIT OTHERS TO BIND YOURS. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day”.
      And escalates into this:
      Wt. 11/15/81 “Make haste to IDENTIFY the visible theocratic ORGANIZATION of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR LIFE. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect”.
      Wt. 13/11/15 –“ At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION may not appear practical from a human standpoint. ALL OF US MUST BE READY TO OBEY any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.”
      Rev 16:13,14:
      “And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth, (the anointed ones Rev 1:5) and of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.”
      We are aware that a fertilized egg of a frog is laid in a mass under water. In a few days, a tadpole is formed, and eventually, the metamorphosis is complete, as a mature frog has developed. Even the diet during this process changes from grasses to meat.
      In the Watchtower, what begins as a scriptural truth, becomes a full-fledged lie, sourced in Satan’s “sea”, that consumes the individual who submits his mind and heart to it. Each beginning of a lie is part of many, that the Watchtower has ‘morphed’ over the years. These teachings have become unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rev 13:1,2 (Prov 14:25) 
      Again, from the WT 11/7/15:
      Here's an example of a fabricated view:
      Wt. 14/1/15 - “How did Jehovah become King in 1914, and what were some of the Kingdom’s early accomplishments? The subsequent famines, earthquakes, and pestilences as well as the fulfillment of other Bible prophecies proved CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ had begun to rule in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914. By enthroning his Son as the Messianic King, Jehovah had, indeed, become King in a new sense!” 
      The SYMBOLIC famines, earthquakes, pestilences are the labor pains that PRECEDE the birth of God’s Kingdom. This is the natural order of birth. Luke 21:8,9; Mark 13:8; Ezek 22:28  
       “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your ]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a MESSAGE OR A LETTER AS IF FROM US, TO THE EFFECT THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” 2 Thess 2:1-4
      Watchtower continues: 
      Twisting the scriptures, and creating new doctrine such as:
      Wt 02/8/1 - “Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. Hebrews 13:7,17" 
      JWs, go back to the scriptures to find the truth:
      Num 18:7 - “But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the veil, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift, BUT AN UNAUTHORIZED PERSON WHO COMES NEAR THE SANCTUARY WILL BE PUT TO DEATH."
       Who are the Temple sanctuary?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 2Chron.13:9; Ezek 22:26;Eze.44:6,7,8,9; 2Thess.2:4; Dan.11:31; Matt.24:15; Rev 11:1,2
      Shepherd the Flock book, page 65 (the previous version) – 
      “Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion.”
      It includes: 
      “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to bible truth…
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot
      “The Kingdom—1914?”
      “The Sign of the End”
    • By SciTechPress
      EU hate speech rules backed by Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Microsoft
      BRUSSELS – Facebook, Twitter, Google's YouTube and Microsoft pledged on Tuesday to review requests for the removal of hateful content posted on their platforms within 24 hours as part of a code of conduct agreed with EU regulators. Authorities across ...

      and more » Google
    • By SciTechPress
      The Verge
      Facebook, Twitter, Google, and Microsoft agree to EU hate speech rules
      The Verge
      Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, and YouTube today agreed to European regulations that require them to review "the majority of" hateful online content within 24 hours of being notified — and to remove it, if necessary — as part of a new "code of conduct ...
      Europe enlists tech companies to help end online hate speechEngadget
      Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft And YouTube Commit To Prevent Hate Speech Following Brussels Terror AttacksInternational Business Times
      Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and Microsoft Sign Hate Speech AgreementFortune
      VentureBeat -Financial Times
      all 8 news articles » Google
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      I was a teenager in the 60's,  and I had a good friend that on Scout camping trips I introduced to the Truth, and I was there in NYC at Yankee Stadium when he was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witness. He was a true "straight arrow", and pioneered, always dressed immaculately, and eventually over the years became an Elder.
      One night, at an Elder's Meeting, he announced to the other Elders that he was Jesus Christ, and that his mother was the virgin Mary, and of course he was disfellowshipped.
      He spent several years in private mental institutions until his insurance money ran out, then in a State institution for several years.
      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      A major front page headline and two page article in Sweden's Metro newspaper.
      The Metro newspaper is a free newspaper that distributes 550,000-copies daily with a daily readership of some 1,153,000 people
      HBTQ = Homosexual, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer.
      Defector: Jehovah's film dangerous to the children
      Jehovah's Witnesses Show Movies That Disregard Children's HBTQ - Missing permission
      I'm compared to pedophiles and killers - to the joy of the sect
    • By Jan Malviluoto
      Swedish police investigates, among other things, film shown at regional convention day 3 
      I don't have time to translate this now because I have to go now for the 2nd day of the special convention in Oslo

    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
    • By Jack Ryan
      POLK COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – A Polk County mother is outraged after she claims a school bus driver used her son to spread hate. Natalie Encarnacion told News Channel 8 that the bus driver, now identified as Violeta Jacobo, told her seven-year-old son he would go to hell for supporting his mom’s same-sex relationship. One afternoon, in the beginning of February, her son had missed his bus from Alta Vista Elementary School, so a different bus driver took him home. “He mentioned [to the bus driver] he was hoping his two mom’s wouldn’t be upset that he was home so late,” Encarnacion said. “She said ‘whoa God doesn’t like that,’ then she went on and on telling him how he wouldn’t make it into heaven and there is a such thing as hell.” She claims the bus driver even sent him home with a Jehovah’s Witnesses card, and hate in his heart. “Later that night, he explained why we should not be together anymore,” Encarnacion said. “He is absolutely questioning this now, something we have so smoothly transitioned into and never had any issues with.” Encarnacion said she contacted the school board and never heard back. She also contacted DCF. She told News Channel 8 the agency looked into the incident, but closed the case when they did not find any neglect. According to Polk County School Board Spokesperson Jason Geary, they are still reviewing the matter. However, they have spoken to the bus driver and instructed her that she must follow the code of ethical conduct. According to Geary, Violeta Jacobo is an active bus driver, employed since August 31, 2012. There is no past disciplinary action in her personnel file. “It’s shocking and it’s infuriating to know that nobody is doing anything about it. Just the thought that she could do this to other kids.” Encarnacion said she hopes something is done so she can’t do this to another family. “I am extremely devastated. My home life and everything is being affected by this. My son is rebelling against our relationship and it’s just putting everything into question. It’s really upsetting and I hope nobody ever has to go through this,” she said. “This has put hate in his heart.”

    • By Michelle
      How ridiculous. Anyone asking such questions is not reading the material nor either listening to or attending meetings. Uniforms? Smacks of apostate individuals spreading falsehoods. 
  • Forum Statistics

    Total Topics
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    Total Members
    Most Online
    Marek Markus
    Newest Member
    Marek Markus

  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.