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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

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On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, Equivocation said:

Lol but seriously, us claiming to be "God"?

The GB may not claim to be “God”, but by the doctrine they have developed, they have bestowed on themselves and the elders, the power to act as God and Christ, by disfellowshipping any who reject their unsound doctrine which has little or no scriptural basis.  The Bible definition of an apostate is not the one who rejects made up stories by men; but is the one who creates them, and expects other to follow without question. 

“For the time will come when people (JWs) will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear.”  1 Tim 4:3

 If you want to hear that 

1.  an organization is your salvation  Acts 4:11,12

2.  that men who have failed in Bible predictions and doctrine from day one, are appointed by God.  Deut 18:20-22

3.  that Zion/Temple of God is the organization and not the Temple priesthood (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10) 

and so forth...

then, who is the spiritually and mentally, unstable apostate according to scripture?  2 Pet 2:1-3

 

 

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The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.

Apart from what has already been quoted, Peter makes reference to that early apostate Balaam who sought to attack God's people. He says that when Balaam was hindered in his attempt to stumble worshippers of Jehovah by a "voiceless beast of burden", the effect was to hinder "the prophet's mad course" 2Pet.2:16. In using the Greek word "paraphronia" Peter indicates that Balaam was engaged in an act of madness or insanity and manifesting a symptom of mental disorder. A related word, "anoia" is used to describe the "sensless rage" of the Pharisees at Jesus' supposed violation of their Sabbath Laws (Luke 16:11), and also by Paul when actually describing the activity of those other ancient opposers of Jehovah's people, Jannes and Jambres. He spoke of them being completely "corrupted in mind" and that this corruption was plainly evident in the "folly" (anoia) of their action against Moses. (2Tim.3:9).

By the same token, modern day apostates exhibit they are "corrupted in mind", clearly exhibiting "folly" along with "senseless rage" and manifestly engaged in a "mad course". 

There is a PC language argument these days for avoiding the use of the word "disease" in connection with mental disorder, even the term "mental illness" is being questioned. This is due to the innapropriate reactions of  people to such terms. Over time, terms may gather an emotive potential which may provoke an inappropriate response in many. This reactive tendency is exploited by propagandists of which Christian apostates are a sub-division.   

However, no amount of feel-good euphemism can disguise the fact that Christian apostasy is abhorrent, contagious, and death dealing, whatever metaphor is used to describe it. Given the facts, it is also a mainfestation of insanity or madness. Many translators seem to agree:

2Pet.2:16:
New International Version
But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--an animal without speech--who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

New Living Translation
But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.

English Standard Version
but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Berean Study Bible
But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Berean Literal Bible
But he had reproof for his own transgression by a mute donkey; having spoken in a man's voice, it restrained the madness of the prophet.

New American Standard Bible
but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

New King James Version
but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

King James Bible
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Christian Standard Bible
but received a rebuke for his lawlessness: A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

Contemporary English Version
But a donkey corrected him for this evil deed. It spoke to him with a human voice and made him stop his foolishness.

Good News Translation
and was rebuked for his sin. His donkey spoke with a human voice and stopped the prophet's insane action.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but received a rebuke for his transgression: A donkey that could not talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's irrationality.

International Standard Version
But he was rebuked for his offense. A donkey that normally cannot talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's insanity.

NET Bible
yet was rebuked for his own transgression (a dumb donkey, speaking with a human voice, restrained the prophet's madness).

New Heart English Bible
but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But the reproof of his violation was a dumb donkey which spoke with the voice of men, restraining the madness of the Prophet.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But he was convicted for his evil. A donkey, which normally can't talk, spoke with a human voice and wouldn't allow the prophet to continue his insanity.

New American Standard 1977
but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and was rebuked for his iniquity; a dumb animal accustomed to a yoke (upon which he was seated), speaking with man's voice, hindered the madness of the prophet.

King James 2000 Bible
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb donkey speaking with man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

American King James Version
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbade the madness of the prophet.

American Standard Version
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet.

Darby Bible Translation
but had reproof of his own wickedness -- [the] dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the folly of the prophet.

English Revised Version
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

Webster's Bible Translation
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness of the prophet.

Weymouth New Testament
But he was rebuked for his transgression: a dumb ass spoke with a human voice and checked the madness of the Prophet.

World English Bible
but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.

Young's Literal Translation
and had a rebuke of his own iniquity -- a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.

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6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.

Yes. I wrote up a post on this at the time and included how other translations handled the verse. An excerpt:   (from https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/who-is-mentally-diseased.html )

“Moreover, “mentally diseased” was placed in quotation marks, indicating it was not meant as a medical diagnosis, but as an adjective to suggest a manner of thinking. Nor is the term anything original. It is merely a repeat of the Bible verse 1 Timothy 6:3-4....“If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words.”

...Douay-Rheims says ‘sick about questions and strifes of words.’ In view of the context, what sort of ‘sickness’ do you think the translator had in mind? Tuberculosis, maybe? Or is it not a sickness of thinking, so that ‘mentally diseased’ is not such a bad rendering after all? NASB...offers ‘morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words.’ Does ‘morbid,’ when applied to thinking, suggest balance and soundness of mind? Or is ‘sickness,’ even ‘mentally diseased,’ more to the point?”

Here’s a few other translations:

‘diseased’ (Emphasized New Testament; Rotherham)

‘filled with a sickly appetite’ (Epistles of Paul, W.J.Conybeare)

‘morbid appetite’ (A New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People; Charles Williams)

‘morbid craving’ (An American Translation; Goodspeed)

‘unhealthy love of questionings’ (New Testament in Basic English)

‘morbidly keen’ (NEB)

‘unhealthy desire to argue’ (Good News Bible).

“Do any of these other versions suggest soundness of mind? So the NWT’s ‘mentally diseased’ is an entirely valid offering, even if more pointed than most. Plus, once again, the term is an adjective, as it is in all other translations, not a medical diagnosis. Context (in that Watchtower article) made this application abundantly clear.”

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So the NWT’s ‘mentally diseased’ is an entirely valid offering

I like the description at 2Tim.2:17: "their word will spread like gangrene" (Gk γάγγραινα: gangraina). Doesn't seem to present any translation difficulty?

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@Witness That's a very weak response. That also throws into question Discples and Apostles who took the lead in the early congregation, i.e. some in Christendom equating Paul, Peter, and several others who were taking the lead, even some brothers who had some kind of authority, equating to God and Christ. So technically, you just jumbled together your own conclusion.

And..... You're not too hot on what was said in the letter to Timothy, or what Outta Here has mentioned. 

On the other hand, Matt was throwing out a claim that the governing body actually said this.

But let's be real here, as in, as real as a box of legos here, no one is claiming to be or being equal to God, not even an imperfect man or the governing body. You're just fitting the bill with the Scriptures talking about.

@Outta Here Pretty much if you point this out people will ignore it and won't believe it.

They'll have that "I can't believe it's not butter" reaction 🤣

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Yes, let every person in the organization come with their own theories of how a scripture should be interpreted. Let any person say they are anointed and then take disciples for themselves and preach their own interpretations. Yes let each one become their own God. 

This is a truly a united way of thinking - it will be similar to the world which is now so irreconcilably "united".

I just love the way these so-called bible experts think - so illogical and impractical...... quick to accuse others of being "gods" but wanting to replace those gods with their own ludicrous ideas. And quite ready to replace those gods with their own godlike opinions and authority.

 

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On 10/30/2019 at 6:53 PM, Equivocation said:

That's a very weak response. That also throws into question Discples and Apostles who took the lead in the early congregation, i.e. some in Christendom equating Paul, Peter, and several others who were taking the lead, even some brothers who had some kind of authority, equating to God and Christ. So technically, you just jumbled together your own conclusion.

Which response?  I gave more than one.  There goes another JW, comparing the GB to the apostles.  They were inspired, the GB is not.  The elders, except for a minuscule number, are not even anointed.  

It was Peter and the apostles who said, "We must obey God rather than men!"  Acts 5:29

Our obedience is to truth.  If an anointed leads in truth, then that one leads another to Christ.  Since the GB have flunked leading people in truth, then who should we obey?  We obey Christ's teachings.  That way, we won't be found a fool.  Matt 7:26

Outta Here did a fine job listing the variations of 2 Pet 2:16

"madness"

"irrationality"

"foolishness"

"insane"

As an example of madness, irrationality, and foolishness, please consider this:  your GB has targeted the "King of the North" as Russia.  This was in 2018.  This should mean to JWs that Armageddon is nigh. Today, the wonderful announcement has been made that a media center the size of Warwick will be finished in about 5 years.  On the cusp of a raging King of the North pouncing on JWs, business goes on as usual and the excitement is hardly containable.  

"We're ramping up production in response to heavy demand" of audio-visual offerings, Zick said. "People find these materials to be useful, so we're putting more resources behind them, and we're putting everything under one roof."  Newsweek Sat, Nov 02, 2019

Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” ’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”  Luke 12:16-21

 

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.  James 4:13-16

 

Do YOU believe that THEY believe Armageddon is nigh?

 

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8 hours ago, Witness said:

Which response?  I gave more than one.  There goes another JW, comparing the GB to the apostles.  They were inspired, the GB is not.  The elders, except for a minuscule number, are not even anointed.  

The comment in general and you kinda went off in a tangent. There goes another JW comparing? Lol, no amigo, estas siendo delirante ahora 😑. All that was said is what is read in the Scriptures is as what is said, therefore the term  "mentally diseased" concerning Apostates, especially the ones looking for some action, fits like a puzzle piece.

Ok and your point is? Not one from the Governing Body ever made a claim to be inspired at all. That was something brought up by people who assume with evidence to what was really said, in addition to that, I think some people here grilled you on this before.

Being anointed is like an invitation of God, so how are you so sure you are all knowing in this sense when you haven't even confronted or talked to them?

Plus you are going off into another subject, one, I believe another fella here who says he's anointed too, corrected you on a while back.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

Do YOU believe that THEY believe Armageddon is nigh?

Yes. That is why we have to remain awake and keep on doing the work, fortifying our faith in the process. Because the day of Jehovah is like a thief in the night, unexpected and no one knows the day  not even the Angels, not even Jesus, etc. It is something like this that even drew a late intellectual mind into the Scriptures, and my professor loves talking about him.

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On 10/30/2019 at 6:53 PM, Equivocation said:

But let's be real here, as in, as real as a box of legos here, no one is claiming to be or being equal to God, not even an imperfect man or the governing body. You're just fitting the bill with the Scriptures talking about.

Yes, when the shoe fits.

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Being anointed is like an invitation of God, so how are you so sure you are all knowing in this sense when you haven't even confronted or talked to them?

Do you really believe the GB listen to the anointed found all across the world?  Do you really believe they read ANY letter from ANY of them?  Do you think they have an open door policy, allowing other anointed to voice their opinion by appointment at Warwick?  

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Ok and your point is? Not one from the Governing Body ever made a claim to be inspired at all.

 

Yet, their “taking the lead” is continually compared to the apostles and Moses.  They highlight both the apostles and Moses’ mistakes, to excuse their own mistakes.  

Of course, those taking the lead in the earthly part of God’s organization are not perfect—but neither was Moses. Even so, the pillar provided constant evidence of his divine appointment and of God’s approval. Note, too, that it was not for each Israelite to determine when to start moving. Instead, the people acted “at the order of Jehovah by means of Moses.” (Num. 9:23) Thus Moses, God’s channel of direction, likely gave the signal to move. Today, Jehovah’s steward class gives a clear signal whenever it is time to make a move. How does the steward do that? By means of articles in The Watchtower and Our Kingdom Ministry, new publications, and talks at assemblies and conventions. Instructions are also conveyed to the congregations through traveling overseers or through letters or training sessions attended by brothers having congregation responsibilities.  W 11/4/15 pg 4,5

…"neither was Moses”.  Uninspired men compare themselves to the prophet Moses, giving a “clear signal” when it is time to move, despite their mistakes, and comparing  this signal to the pillar of fire that God provided to lead Israel.  All of the sources of “instruction” mentioned, comes from their mouth, and not from God.  It can’t come from God, because they are not inspired as Moses was, or the apostles.  Is their signal given to all of you to “move”, really a clear one?  To believe this is madness and foolishness. Your history shows clear evidence it is not possible.  Your failed history shows how your leaders have strayed from truth.  Does a person with gangrene or a disease happily live with it, or do they make the effort to stop its progress, even cutting off the infected limb, or removing a diseased organ to save their life?  Apostates who are "mentally diseased" are numb to the effect the disease has on one's spiritual mind and body.  They allow themselves to continue to "feed" on proven madness.  To fight a spiritual disease that leads to death, a change of spiritual diet is vital.  Matt 7:15-20

16 But shun profane and idle babblings,("empty chatter") for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Tim 2:16-19

Many have departed from WT's "empty chatter", failed and changed doctrine, knowing to stay would bring their spiritual downfall.  They turn to Christ and yet your organization calls them, the "mentally diseased".  

 

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Plus you are going off into another subject, one, I believe another fella here who says he's anointed too, corrected you on a while back.

I don't know who "corrected" me in the past, or if that person was an anointed one.    But, the majority of JWs here, do make the effort to correct me on this forum.  

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

It is something like this that even drew a late intellectual mind into the Scriptures, and my professor loves talking about him.

Perhaps you are going off on a tangent.   But, it’s okay with me. 🙂 

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      Num 18:7 - “But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the veil, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift, BUT AN UNAUTHORIZED PERSON WHO COMES NEAR THE SANCTUARY WILL BE PUT TO DEATH."
       Who are the Temple sanctuary?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 2Chron.13:9; Ezek 22:26;Eze.44:6,7,8,9; 2Thess.2:4; Dan.11:31; Matt.24:15; Rev 11:1,2
      “CLEARLY, APOSTATES DO NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. FOLLOWING THEM WOULD DIVERT US FROM THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE”. 
      Shepherd the Flock book, page 65 (the previous version) – 
      “Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion.”
      It includes: 
      “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to bible truth…
      AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”
       
       
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot
      “The Kingdom—1914?”
      “The Sign of the End”
       
       
    • By SciTechPress
      VentureBeat
      EU hate speech rules backed by Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Microsoft
      VentureBeat
      BRUSSELS – Facebook, Twitter, Google's YouTube and Microsoft pledged on Tuesday to review requests for the removal of hateful content posted on their platforms within 24 hours as part of a code of conduct agreed with EU regulators. Authorities across ...

      and more » Google
    • By SciTechPress
      The Verge
      Facebook, Twitter, Google, and Microsoft agree to EU hate speech rules
      The Verge
      Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, and YouTube today agreed to European regulations that require them to review "the majority of" hateful online content within 24 hours of being notified — and to remove it, if necessary — as part of a new "code of conduct ...
      Europe enlists tech companies to help end online hate speechEngadget
      Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft And YouTube Commit To Prevent Hate Speech Following Brussels Terror AttacksInternational Business Times
      Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and Microsoft Sign Hate Speech AgreementFortune
      VentureBeat -Financial Times
      all 8 news articles » Google
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
      I was a teenager in the 60's,  and I had a good friend that on Scout camping trips I introduced to the Truth, and I was there in NYC at Yankee Stadium when he was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witness. He was a true "straight arrow", and pioneered, always dressed immaculately, and eventually over the years became an Elder.
      One night, at an Elder's Meeting, he announced to the other Elders that he was Jesus Christ, and that his mother was the virgin Mary, and of course he was disfellowshipped.
      He spent several years in private mental institutions until his insurance money ran out, then in a State institution for several years.
      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      A major front page headline and two page article in Sweden's Metro newspaper.
      The Metro newspaper is a free newspaper that distributes 550,000-copies daily with a daily readership of some 1,153,000 people
      http://www.tmnww.com/metro-network/metro-europe/metro-sweden
      HBTQ = Homosexual, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer.
      Defector: Jehovah's film dangerous to the children
      Jehovah's Witnesses Show Movies That Disregard Children's HBTQ - Missing permission
      I'm compared to pedophiles and killers - to the joy of the sect
    • By Jan Malviluoto
      Swedish police investigates, among other things, film shown at regional convention day 3 
      I don't have time to translate this now because I have to go now for the 2nd day of the special convention in Oslo

      https://www.metro.se/artikel/efter-metros-avslöjande-om-jehovas-vittnen-polisen-inleder-förundersökning-om-hets-mot-folkgrupp
    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
    • By Jack Ryan
      POLK COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – A Polk County mother is outraged after she claims a school bus driver used her son to spread hate. Natalie Encarnacion told News Channel 8 that the bus driver, now identified as Violeta Jacobo, told her seven-year-old son he would go to hell for supporting his mom’s same-sex relationship. One afternoon, in the beginning of February, her son had missed his bus from Alta Vista Elementary School, so a different bus driver took him home. “He mentioned [to the bus driver] he was hoping his two mom’s wouldn’t be upset that he was home so late,” Encarnacion said. “She said ‘whoa God doesn’t like that,’ then she went on and on telling him how he wouldn’t make it into heaven and there is a such thing as hell.” She claims the bus driver even sent him home with a Jehovah’s Witnesses card, and hate in his heart. “Later that night, he explained why we should not be together anymore,” Encarnacion said. “He is absolutely questioning this now, something we have so smoothly transitioned into and never had any issues with.” Encarnacion said she contacted the school board and never heard back. She also contacted DCF. She told News Channel 8 the agency looked into the incident, but closed the case when they did not find any neglect. According to Polk County School Board Spokesperson Jason Geary, they are still reviewing the matter. However, they have spoken to the bus driver and instructed her that she must follow the code of ethical conduct. According to Geary, Violeta Jacobo is an active bus driver, employed since August 31, 2012. There is no past disciplinary action in her personnel file. “It’s shocking and it’s infuriating to know that nobody is doing anything about it. Just the thought that she could do this to other kids.” Encarnacion said she hopes something is done so she can’t do this to another family. “I am extremely devastated. My home life and everything is being affected by this. My son is rebelling against our relationship and it’s just putting everything into question. It’s really upsetting and I hope nobody ever has to go through this,” she said. “This has put hate in his heart.”

      http://wfla.com/2017/03/07/polk-woman-claims-school-bus-driver-told-7-year-old-son-he-would-go-to-hell-for-moms-same-sex-relationship/
    • By Michelle
      How ridiculous. Anyone asking such questions is not reading the material nor either listening to or attending meetings. Uniforms? Smacks of apostate individuals spreading falsehoods. 
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    • This is not technically true. Admittedly, there was much opinion, but there was also at least one bit of solid information content: It would be very hard to dispute with that one.
    • I think a lot of people suspected that pretty quickly, especially as their top 3 issues appear to be the same, and as time goes on, even their pet peeves match up. I don't know for sure that JB was "DF'd" from the site, but it's the impression I got because there was some kind of warning, and then he was gone. At this point if they are the same, I don't think it matters in the slightest. But the reason I jump in on this topic is because I don't want anyone to be confused with my use of the term DF.  According to JB, he was treated as if DF'd in his congregation, even though he was not officially DF'd by a committee of elders. Not all of the reasons for this treatment were clear. Now that you have suspected that 4Jah2me was DF'd, I just figured that the JB story ought to be a reminder that it's always possible 4Jah2me was never DF'd either. 
    • Tweeted Richard Dawkins one fine day (11/13/19): “You could easily spot any Religion of Peace. Its extremist members would be extremely peaceful”  Can it be? Is Richard Dawkins referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses—universally known for being “extremely peaceful” yet declared “extremists” in Russia? If so, I will take back the relatively few bad things I have said about him. I have not really said THAT many bad things about him. At times, I have even been complimentary. When he blessed the atheist buses rolling out in London, I said that he raised a good point—his was a reaction to existing “hellfire’ buses, with advertising from the church. He did wuss-out, though, with a: “There probably is no God.” Probably? It wasn’t until I began following him on Twitter, though, that I noticed how breathtakingly contemptuous he was toward anyone who disagreed with him—not merely about God, but also on geopolitical things—and then I did say a few mean things. For example, I said of him that “he does not suffer fools gladly, and a fool is anyone who disagrees with him.” However, he has largely repented over this online meanness. I’ve noticed it over the months. He has not banished it entirely, but it is much less prevalent, so that I regret that I ever said what I did.  The temptation to be disdainful of opponents is well-nigh irresistible, particularly if you think that they are willfully choosing ignorance. I have (more or less) mastered the temptation, of course, but I have a source of effective and unending counsel that he does not. This is no more concisely stated than it was at a recent Watchtower Study. A Bible verse considered how we ought “do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you.” (Philippians 2:3) Practically speaking, this advice is not easy to implement. It may even strike one as nonsensical—how can everyone be superior to everyone else? Said that Watchtower: “The humble person acknowledges that everyone is superior to him in some way.—Phil. 2:3, 4.”  Of course. In some way everyone is superior to everyone else. Search for that way, hone in on it like a laser beam, and it will not be so difficult to treat even opponents with respect. “Disagree without being disagreeable” is the catchphrase today. But Professor Dawkins does not have this advantage. Much of his tradition would sway him in just the opposite “survival of the fittest” direction. So he must be given credit for his new, somewhat softer, online personality. Possibly someone who has his best interests at heart—perhaps his wife—said, “Richard, you sure do come across as a cantankerous crank on Twitter,” and he deliberately walked it back. It’s commendable. Now, I don’t think Richard had Jehovah’s Witnesses in mind with his tweet. He probably has formed his views of them through the contributions of their “apostate” contingent, and those views could hardly be blacker. I looked down among his comments to see whether any of those nasties had reared their heads. Perhaps here was an example: “Not entirely true. Extremists usually have their own misinterpretation of scriptures.” I responded to this one: “If “misinterpretation” results in a religion of peace, perhaps it is not a misinterpretation after all. Perhaps the mainline view is a misinterpretation.” Is that not a no-brainer?  Another one, disagreeing with the above tweet: “Actually no. Most extremists do exactly what is written in their book. ‘Misinterpretation’ is used as an argument by believers that cherry pick morals that fit our secular ethics today.” I know this type, too. This is the type that finds slavery in the Bible or war in the Old Testament and rails at the “hypocrisy.” I responded to this fellow as well: “Everything has a historical context and to deliberately ignore such context is to be intellectually dishonest. If our side does it to theirs, we never hear the end of it.” He blew up at this reference to context. Evil is evil, he carried on, across all places and time-frames. These characters are very predictable—you could even write their lines for them and not be too far off. Has “critical thinking” made us all nincompoops? It was once thought the most intelligent thing in the world to consider historical backdrop; one was irresponsible, even deceitful, not to do it. Very well. If he is going to trash, with blinders affixed, the source that I hold dear, I will do the same with his source: “You should turn your critical thinking skills upon Ancient Greece, the definer of it. When time travel is invented, history revisionists will give a friendly wave to American slaveholding forefathers as they race back in time to fetch wicked Greek pedophiles—it was an enshrined value of that world—back in irons.” He was not chastened by this. Hijacking Twitter as his personal courtroom, he cross-examined: “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” I countered: “Is the raping of children as endorsed by Ancient Greek society morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Incredibly, he was not dissuaded. “Last chance!” he shot back. “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” “To the blockheads, I became a blockhead.”—Paul (sort of) —1 Corinthians 9:19-22,” I tweeted back: “Two can play the game of obstinacy. Last chance: Is the rape of children—it was enshrined in Ancient Greek society—morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Then I went away, and when I came back, he had deleted all this tweets so that it was hard for me to reconstruct the thread. However, someone else had pointed out a grave sin I had committed: “Thomas you are guilty of the moral equivalence fallacy.” Am I? I suppose. You can sort of guess by the wording just what that phrase means—I had not heard it before. At least it is in English. I once heard a theologian quip that if there is a Latin phrase and a perfectly clear English phrase that means the same thing, always use the Latin phrase so people will know that you are educated. But my “moral equivalence fallacy” is still is no more than considering historical context, a praiseworthy intellectual technique for all time periods except ours.  Besides, I actually had posted something about slavery long ago. But it is not a topic so simple that it can be hashed out in a few tweets, and so I declined to go there with this fellow, who would debate all the sub-points. If God corrected every human injustice the moment it manifested itself, there would be nothing left. The entire premise of the Bible is that human-rule is unjust in itself and that God allows a period of time for that to be clearly manifested before bringing in his kingdom—the one referred to in the “Lord’s prayer”—to straighten it all out. In the meantime, the very ones who work themselves into a lather at religion “brainwashing” people are livid that God did not brainwash slavery away once humans settled upon it as a fine economic underpinning. If Dawkins’s tweet and my response hangs around long enough before burial in the Twitter feed, I would expect some of our malcontents to observe as they did in Russia, where the only evidence of extremism cited is proclaiming “a religious view of supremacy.” Huge protest will come at how Jehovah’s Witnesses practice shunning and thus “destroy” relationships and even family. But views inevitably translate into consequences and policies. Refusal to “come together” with those who insist on diametrically opposed views is hardly the “extremism” of ISIS—and yet the Russian Supreme Court has declared that it is, with the full backing in principle of those from the ex-JW community—the ones who go crusading, which is perhaps 10%. I’m going to write this up as a post and append it to his thread. Let’s see what happens. Probably nothing, but you never know. Plus, let’s expand on that particular Watchtower some more. The particular article covered was entitled: “Jehovah Values His Humble Servants” (September 2019 issue—study edition) Unlike nearly all religious services, Witness meetings are ones that you can prepare for. You can comment during them. They are studies of the sacred book, not just impromptu rap sessions, acquiescencing to ceremony, or sitting through someone else’s sermon. You can prepare for them, and you are benefited, as in any classroom, when you do. The focus here, as it so often is, is on practical application.  Humility draws persons to us. Haughtiness repels them, and thus makes next to impossible the mantra to “come together.” My own comment, when the time was right, was that haughty people can only accomplish so much—it may be a great deal, for haughty people are often very capable people—but eventually they run up against the fact that nobody else can stand them, and so people are motivated to undercut their ideas, even if they are good ones, out of sheer payback for ugliness. Humble people, on the other hand, may be far less capable individually, but their efforts add up. They know how to cooperate and yield to each other in a way that haughty people do not. Someone else on that Dawkins thread, an amateur wit, played with that them of unlikely extremists: “Jehova's witnesses are peaceful but their extremists are better extremely annoying...” Why fight this? It is a viewpoint. Viewpoints are not wrong, because they are viewpoints—right or wrong doesn’t enter into the equation. Better to roll with it. I was indeed on a roll, and so I tweeted back:  “I will grant that they can be. Still, if you had a choice between a team of JWs approaching your door and a team of ISIS members, you would (hopefully) choose theformer. Those 2 groups, and only those 2 groups are officially declared “extremist” in Russia.” And with that, I included a link to my ebook, “Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.” I am shameless in that. No matter how many books I sell, it is not enough. I don’t sell them, anyway. The book is free, a labor of love. It is an application of the theme: “If you have something important to say, don’t hide it behind a paywall.” It is the only, to my knowledge, complete history of events leading up to and beyond the 2017 ban of the Witness organization in Russia. As to the latest developments there, another one was herded off to prison, who, making the best of a sour situation, or perhaps genuinely finding value there, said: "I want to thank … prosecution. I don't just thank you, but thank you very much, because thanks to you my faith has become stronger … I see I'm on the right path." Of course. It is unreasonable to oppose so vehemently a people totally honest, hard-working, and given to peace—and yet the Bible says that such will exactly happen. How can it not serve to strengthen faith?
    • According to scientific knowledge, the entire universe is in two states every day: something becomes and something disappears. Life on Earth is in the same status. I am disappointed with suffer of creatures on Earth, too. And can't connect with "my picture" of God as i accepted through JW Bible interpretations and my own interpretations, then and now. What if we made wrong pictures about Creator? .... based on wrong or failed text? 
    • You will find it's not "people" in general who judge too quickly, but it is ex-JWs. People in general do understand the complexities. Even the ARC understands the complexities, and so do prosecuting lawyers. But of course neither are in the business to understand, but to hopefully help remedy the situation and to get justice (well in the case of the lawyers; to get lots of $$$$ too, lets be honest).
    • What amazed me many times is this: Who writes articles, and about whom, and to whom? Here we have one paragraph about GB. Questions arise.  Who makes this observations and conclusions about GB?? Who is authorized to make comments about GB and their works?? Why examination about  GB, had been presented in a way, manner, as it is done by "Third Party"? Is it possible that GB is not able, in power to talk about themselves and gave self evaluation, introspective about own feelings, thoughts and deeds??!!  What a theatrics for public. They are histriones :))  
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