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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

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7 minutes ago, Witness said:

both he and his wife suffered abuse by parents who were JWs.  And he also knew of an incident of abuse in his congregation.  I think you must agree that he isn’t mentally diseased, but mentally and emotionally scarred...for the entire rest of his life he will lead on this earth.

If that's the case it's more understandable. Of course, many of these abused ones go on to inflict abuse themselves, which according to your own statements, would make them "mentally diseased" too. But I was referring especially to the inordinate hatred of all elders that he shows, when no one can rightfully blame all elders.

When I said "certifiable" I was referring specifically to some very disturbing stories about the "leader" of silent-lambs. These are not stories coming from JWs, but from what I have read coming from exJWs, too.

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Can an obsession be counted as mental disease?

According to the dictionary one of the synonyms of obsession is mania, and the dictionary defines mania as: mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity. Further, the synonyms for mania are: madness, dementia, insanity, lunacy, psychosis and mental illness, among a few.

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's. Not even sure he has a regular job because all his time is taken up by making videos, writing his blog and doing research.

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25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I was referring especially to the inordinate hatred of all elders that he shows, when no one can rightfully blame all elders.

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased.  Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. 

It is as you said,

“But I think we should be careful about judging everyone who leaves by the noise that the noisiest apostates make”

Should any noise made by an exjw be judged as someone cooking up a brew of lies in "Satan's kitchen"?    

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's.

Do you remember what fell into his hands?  "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse".

It explains his obsession.  

 

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13 minutes ago, Witness said:

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased.  Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. 

True,up  to a point. I heard the same thing you posted from the convention and took it to mean that we no longer think of the millions of persons who have left because of no longer believing as apostates. The speaker said that we do not include those who "drift away" as apostates. Only those who deliberately push away with a bitter, haughty, defiant attitude. There are several of those persons, but at least it effectively cuts down on the number of exJW apostates by as many as, who knows, two million? It's a tautology, but it sounded like we should only consider the mentally diseased apostates as mentally diseased. Those we could safely judge as part of Satan's seed. Personally, I can't judge anyone I know that harshly, but I'm sure they exist. And I suspect a couple of people might be in that category. And not always because they are so obvious, but sometimes because of how crafty they are.

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15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Can an obsession be counted as mental disease?

According to the dictionary one of the synonyms of obsession is mania, and the dictionary defines mania as: mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity. Further, the synonyms for mania are: madness, dementia, insanity, lunacy, psychosis and mental illness, among a few.

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession, too. For example, pioneer service is proof how some JW member is zeal for JHVH. He/she spend 35, 50, 70 hours or much more hours. Other things in their life are putted down for spiritual reasons. And such person mostly thinking about one thing - preaching. Is he/she obsessed with this activity? Many wouldl show "signs" of that.

We can see how one Bible individual act in "obsessed"  way. 

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb........And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts......Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.....For John came neither eating nor drinking......Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.....

From our today's perspective even JW members would say how such person (without knowing source of description)  is not in full mental health. 

 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession,

True. We do however have a positive and negative connotation. In the case of someone obsessed with criticizing an organization made up of mostly good people, doing good things, that is a negative connotation of the word obsession. On the other hand, being "obsessed" about doing JHVH's will would have a positive connotation. In general though obsession seems more negative that positive, therefor zeal in this case would be a better choice in my opinion. Of course you can also be zealous for the wrong thing (apostle Paul when he was Saul).

And then there is the perfume 😀

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you remember what fell into his hands?  "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse".

It explains his obsession.  

Yes, all people are sinners and can do horrible things. We all know that. His obsession is unreasonable because he isn't going to change people is he? Plus half the things he says are false, and badly argued. As an example, he puts down the Witnesses for not joining the rest of the world in support of LGBT groups, clearly something condemned by God. Then again he doesn't care what God thinks, as he is a self proclaimed atheist....

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15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course you can also be zealous for the wrong thing (apostle Paul when he was Saul).

And then there is the perfume 😀

I agree. And you even not need to be obsessed or zeal with/for something, but still doing wrong thing.

That is what i have in mind. But also is important where you are in that moment (spiritual and literal place). If such person is observed from/by people who not belong to same ideology it could be viewed as "fanatic" (zealous or obsessed, it would not be too much difference)  

Even inside own group, various levels of "spirituality" that individuals (and others around) have and shows, that individuals see as desirable and good, as the qualities that people around and god himself expecting of us to have them, can be in range from, what fellow brotherhood consider as, normal, role model zeal to something what can be very confusing and doubtful.    

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What I’d like to know, why are witnesses debating a 9-year-old apostate talking point? Why the rhetoric about mentally diseased is not clearly defined without suppositions entering into the mix. Apostates made it a talking point to mean them.

Mentally diseased means anything but what is scripturally stated in 1 Tim. 6:3, 4. FALSE TEACHERS. Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates. Atheist, and even present day witnesses can be included. Christians with a different interpretation of scripture can be included. Christians accepting the teachings of another and not the teachings of Christ and define their argument as though their teacher has more spiritual connection than the watchtower in order to deceive those viewing certain posts as a prophetic insight can be included.

People don’t need to judge, even though “everyone” does in our daily lives one way or another. We just need to apply Scripture.

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12 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates.

This is probably true (up to a point). I think of the anti-God books of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, although I have no idea if these persons were ever religious. They are "apostate" if they left a ideology of faith and have disowned that ideology. Although I haven't read the books, I understand they are based on very simplistic argumentation that doesn't even try to understand scripture before trying to make fun of it.

But if we take your definition too far we would have to include men like Brother(s) Russell, Rutherford, Fred Franz, Ray Franz, and even David Splane, and many others. Every time there is an adjusted belief, it means that the previous belief is now considered to have been misleading. For proof of that, what would we think of someone who still tries to deliberately teach the previous teaching before it was adjusted? We would have to admit that the person was deliberately misleading away from the teaching of God and Christ.

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32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But if we take your definition too far we would have to include men like Brother(s) Russell, Rutherford, Fred Franz, Ray Franz, and even David Splane, and many others. Every time there is an adjusted belief, it means that the previous belief is now considered to have been misleading.

I would have to disagree with this assessment. There is a difference when something gets revised for a better and simpler understanding. The founders of the Bible Students were in their infancy. Their works were newly found truth to a better bible understanding. Nothing misleading about that. I would agree, before the SBA, Christendom did have false teaching that are still taught today by accepting the early church fathers understanding of scripture.

David Splane doesn't cause anyone to view scripture differently other than how Jesus taught it. That is the point.

Do you believe, revision to be a bad thing? Why would anyone want to stay stale with their understanding

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    • This is not technically true. Admittedly, there was much opinion, but there was also at least one bit of solid information content: It would be very hard to dispute with that one.
    • I think a lot of people suspected that pretty quickly, especially as their top 3 issues appear to be the same, and as time goes on, even their pet peeves match up. I don't know for sure that JB was "DF'd" from the site, but it's the impression I got because there was some kind of warning, and then he was gone. At this point if they are the same, I don't think it matters in the slightest. But the reason I jump in on this topic is because I don't want anyone to be confused with my use of the term DF.  According to JB, he was treated as if DF'd in his congregation, even though he was not officially DF'd by a committee of elders. Not all of the reasons for this treatment were clear. Now that you have suspected that 4Jah2me was DF'd, I just figured that the JB story ought to be a reminder that it's always possible 4Jah2me was never DF'd either. 
    • Tweeted Richard Dawkins one fine day (11/13/19): “You could easily spot any Religion of Peace. Its extremist members would be extremely peaceful”  Can it be? Is Richard Dawkins referring to Jehovah’s Witnesses—universally known for being “extremely peaceful” yet declared “extremists” in Russia? If so, I will take back the relatively few bad things I have said about him. I have not really said THAT many bad things about him. At times, I have even been complimentary. When he blessed the atheist buses rolling out in London, I said that he raised a good point—his was a reaction to existing “hellfire’ buses, with advertising from the church. He did wuss-out, though, with a: “There probably is no God.” Probably? It wasn’t until I began following him on Twitter, though, that I noticed how breathtakingly contemptuous he was toward anyone who disagreed with him—not merely about God, but also on geopolitical things—and then I did say a few mean things. For example, I said of him that “he does not suffer fools gladly, and a fool is anyone who disagrees with him.” However, he has largely repented over this online meanness. I’ve noticed it over the months. He has not banished it entirely, but it is much less prevalent, so that I regret that I ever said what I did.  The temptation to be disdainful of opponents is well-nigh irresistible, particularly if you think that they are willfully choosing ignorance. I have (more or less) mastered the temptation, of course, but I have a source of effective and unending counsel that he does not. This is no more concisely stated than it was at a recent Watchtower Study. A Bible verse considered how we ought “do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you.” (Philippians 2:3) Practically speaking, this advice is not easy to implement. It may even strike one as nonsensical—how can everyone be superior to everyone else? Said that Watchtower: “The humble person acknowledges that everyone is superior to him in some way.—Phil. 2:3, 4.”  Of course. In some way everyone is superior to everyone else. Search for that way, hone in on it like a laser beam, and it will not be so difficult to treat even opponents with respect. “Disagree without being disagreeable” is the catchphrase today. But Professor Dawkins does not have this advantage. Much of his tradition would sway him in just the opposite “survival of the fittest” direction. So he must be given credit for his new, somewhat softer, online personality. Possibly someone who has his best interests at heart—perhaps his wife—said, “Richard, you sure do come across as a cantankerous crank on Twitter,” and he deliberately walked it back. It’s commendable. Now, I don’t think Richard had Jehovah’s Witnesses in mind with his tweet. He probably has formed his views of them through the contributions of their “apostate” contingent, and those views could hardly be blacker. I looked down among his comments to see whether any of those nasties had reared their heads. Perhaps here was an example: “Not entirely true. Extremists usually have their own misinterpretation of scriptures.” I responded to this one: “If “misinterpretation” results in a religion of peace, perhaps it is not a misinterpretation after all. Perhaps the mainline view is a misinterpretation.” Is that not a no-brainer?  Another one, disagreeing with the above tweet: “Actually no. Most extremists do exactly what is written in their book. ‘Misinterpretation’ is used as an argument by believers that cherry pick morals that fit our secular ethics today.” I know this type, too. This is the type that finds slavery in the Bible or war in the Old Testament and rails at the “hypocrisy.” I responded to this fellow as well: “Everything has a historical context and to deliberately ignore such context is to be intellectually dishonest. If our side does it to theirs, we never hear the end of it.” He blew up at this reference to context. Evil is evil, he carried on, across all places and time-frames. These characters are very predictable—you could even write their lines for them and not be too far off. Has “critical thinking” made us all nincompoops? It was once thought the most intelligent thing in the world to consider historical backdrop; one was irresponsible, even deceitful, not to do it. Very well. If he is going to trash, with blinders affixed, the source that I hold dear, I will do the same with his source: “You should turn your critical thinking skills upon Ancient Greece, the definer of it. When time travel is invented, history revisionists will give a friendly wave to American slaveholding forefathers as they race back in time to fetch wicked Greek pedophiles—it was an enshrined value of that world—back in irons.” He was not chastened by this. Hijacking Twitter as his personal courtroom, he cross-examined: “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” I countered: “Is the raping of children as endorsed by Ancient Greek society morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Incredibly, he was not dissuaded. “Last chance!” he shot back. “Is the holding and beating of slaves, as described in Exodus, morally acceptable? Yes or no?” “To the blockheads, I became a blockhead.”—Paul (sort of) —1 Corinthians 9:19-22,” I tweeted back: “Two can play the game of obstinacy. Last chance: Is the rape of children—it was enshrined in Ancient Greek society—morally acceptable? Yes or no?” Then I went away, and when I came back, he had deleted all this tweets so that it was hard for me to reconstruct the thread. However, someone else had pointed out a grave sin I had committed: “Thomas you are guilty of the moral equivalence fallacy.” Am I? I suppose. You can sort of guess by the wording just what that phrase means—I had not heard it before. At least it is in English. I once heard a theologian quip that if there is a Latin phrase and a perfectly clear English phrase that means the same thing, always use the Latin phrase so people will know that you are educated. But my “moral equivalence fallacy” is still is no more than considering historical context, a praiseworthy intellectual technique for all time periods except ours.  Besides, I actually had posted something about slavery long ago. But it is not a topic so simple that it can be hashed out in a few tweets, and so I declined to go there with this fellow, who would debate all the sub-points. If God corrected every human injustice the moment it manifested itself, there would be nothing left. The entire premise of the Bible is that human-rule is unjust in itself and that God allows a period of time for that to be clearly manifested before bringing in his kingdom—the one referred to in the “Lord’s prayer”—to straighten it all out. In the meantime, the very ones who work themselves into a lather at religion “brainwashing” people are livid that God did not brainwash slavery away once humans settled upon it as a fine economic underpinning. If Dawkins’s tweet and my response hangs around long enough before burial in the Twitter feed, I would expect some of our malcontents to observe as they did in Russia, where the only evidence of extremism cited is proclaiming “a religious view of supremacy.” Huge protest will come at how Jehovah’s Witnesses practice shunning and thus “destroy” relationships and even family. But views inevitably translate into consequences and policies. Refusal to “come together” with those who insist on diametrically opposed views is hardly the “extremism” of ISIS—and yet the Russian Supreme Court has declared that it is, with the full backing in principle of those from the ex-JW community—the ones who go crusading, which is perhaps 10%. I’m going to write this up as a post and append it to his thread. Let’s see what happens. Probably nothing, but you never know. Plus, let’s expand on that particular Watchtower some more. The particular article covered was entitled: “Jehovah Values His Humble Servants” (September 2019 issue—study edition) Unlike nearly all religious services, Witness meetings are ones that you can prepare for. You can comment during them. They are studies of the sacred book, not just impromptu rap sessions, acquiescencing to ceremony, or sitting through someone else’s sermon. You can prepare for them, and you are benefited, as in any classroom, when you do. The focus here, as it so often is, is on practical application.  Humility draws persons to us. Haughtiness repels them, and thus makes next to impossible the mantra to “come together.” My own comment, when the time was right, was that haughty people can only accomplish so much—it may be a great deal, for haughty people are often very capable people—but eventually they run up against the fact that nobody else can stand them, and so people are motivated to undercut their ideas, even if they are good ones, out of sheer payback for ugliness. Humble people, on the other hand, may be far less capable individually, but their efforts add up. They know how to cooperate and yield to each other in a way that haughty people do not. Someone else on that Dawkins thread, an amateur wit, played with that them of unlikely extremists: “Jehova's witnesses are peaceful but their extremists are better extremely annoying...” Why fight this? It is a viewpoint. Viewpoints are not wrong, because they are viewpoints—right or wrong doesn’t enter into the equation. Better to roll with it. I was indeed on a roll, and so I tweeted back:  “I will grant that they can be. Still, if you had a choice between a team of JWs approaching your door and a team of ISIS members, you would (hopefully) choose theformer. Those 2 groups, and only those 2 groups are officially declared “extremist” in Russia.” And with that, I included a link to my ebook, “Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.” I am shameless in that. No matter how many books I sell, it is not enough. I don’t sell them, anyway. The book is free, a labor of love. It is an application of the theme: “If you have something important to say, don’t hide it behind a paywall.” It is the only, to my knowledge, complete history of events leading up to and beyond the 2017 ban of the Witness organization in Russia. As to the latest developments there, another one was herded off to prison, who, making the best of a sour situation, or perhaps genuinely finding value there, said: "I want to thank … prosecution. I don't just thank you, but thank you very much, because thanks to you my faith has become stronger … I see I'm on the right path." Of course. It is unreasonable to oppose so vehemently a people totally honest, hard-working, and given to peace—and yet the Bible says that such will exactly happen. How can it not serve to strengthen faith?
    • According to scientific knowledge, the entire universe is in two states every day: something becomes and something disappears. Life on Earth is in the same status. I am disappointed with suffer of creatures on Earth, too. And can't connect with "my picture" of God as i accepted through JW Bible interpretations and my own interpretations, then and now. What if we made wrong pictures about Creator? .... based on wrong or failed text? 
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