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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

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1 hour ago, Tom Henry said:

I wouldn’t expect a witness to argue fundamental human rights, but the rights of our heavenly father.

Imagine yourself as Lawyer who defending innocent person. But what if you are so clumsy and unprepared and from time to time looking in a bottle. How this can help your client - God? 

I think how God can defend self much better than human will and would do it for Him. An at last, according to Bible that work (defending Fathers rights) Jesus already finished very successfully.

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On 11/10/2019 at 9:43 PM, Witness said:

“apostates do not drift away from the truth”

This is an important statement. In actuality many persons are on the "apostate spectrum." Some religions, just like gangs, or the mafia, don't allow one to just drift away. You have to be attacked and in effect, "neutralized."

With religion, it's usually fine to drift away if it highlights that the religion has moral standards that are hard to live up to. Then those who don't come back will sometimes even be seen as a kind of a badge of honor to the religion. (Not individuals, but in general.) But if there is any danger that the person will speak out against the teachings, practices or the basis of organization, then that person must be neutralized in some way so that few persons will listen to them.

Scientologists are famous for going after persons in a threatening way, or through legal means, to keep people from speaking out against their teachings or practices. In the same way, a whistleblower must be fired (by any means necessary) so that they suddenly become no more than a "disgruntled former employee." The Scientologists took over the entire C.A.N. (a huge online Cult Awareness Network forum) after forcing it into bankruptcy, because it was a haven for Scientology apostates.

But back to the benign end of the apostate spectrum.

Apostasy, by original definition, is a "standing away from." When Revelation 16 says to "get out of her, my people," this is a command to become apostates from false ideologies.

Therefore, at the benign end of the apostasy spectrum are those who realize that apostasy can be a good thing, by definition, in that all persons who convert to JWs from another religion, for example, are apostates from that other religion. Also, any who leave JWs because they can't live up to the moral standards or levels of activity expected, are "apostates" but JWs consider them generally harmless. Then there are those who leave because they no longer believe the teachings, but who don't say anything, and plan to keep very quiet about it, because they KNOW they might be seen as "malignant" apostate if they spoke up. Frederick Franz was infamous for trying to get persons declared apostate for even "thinking" that 1914 might be wrong, or some other teaching specific to Witnesses. 

But now, because of the phrase, "apostates do not drift away from the truth," those who "drift away" should not be seen as "apostates." Apostates, for purposes of the warnings in the talk, do not include those who drift away.

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

The absurdity of this idea has often been a talking point I would use with Bible Studies.

But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to heaven, not only the 144,000 but even the great crowd of Revelation 7:14. The idea was that they would rule over the 20 billion people or more from "history" would be resurrected to the earth, including the faithful Hebrews of old, and of course the millions of persons then alive who would NOT be part of the great crowd, but who would never die because by 1925, the millennium's resurrection to earth would begin and living "worldly" people would stop getting sick. It was not clear that any Christians would remain with them on earth until the early 1930's.

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5 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

16Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil;

I replied - see my first paragraph. I AGREED with you and then went on to give my opinion on some of the other thoughts I have seen here. 

I am not writing a paper...... like some of the "scholars" here do in their replies.  On occasion I reply to a specific individual but mostly it is just opinion.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

So you acknowledge that the majority of Christians take the emblems without knowing they are to be priests and kings?  All going to heaven to judge whom?  

Most of them have so little knowledge of the bible and its morals, they will not be able to distinguish right from wrong. This is the reason so many churches now voting for LGBTQ. What about the scriptures which show that a great crowd will live through armageddon?  What about Rev 20 which indicates there will be nations on the earth during the 1000 years?

50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to

What is the point today? We have understood the scriptures, which refer to the nations on the earth for a 1000 years,  for 84 years.  So this proves that if these scholars had the Spirit of jah they would have understood it too!

 

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Agreed. It is easy to critisize, hard to build up. Many condemned Moses for the way he was doing things. Later God took some of his Spirit from  Moses and gave to others to help him.  So Moses had a lot of Spirit and approval from Jehovah. But,  it was in this time there was rebellions and murmurings against him and the people had expectations for someone better, more to their liking. 

If the GB inspired fear and things were less transparent you would be more in awe of them but because they project themselves unhypocritically (what you see is what you get) - people endow themselves with the right to criticize just about everything about them, going as far as saying that they are not the nation jehovah is using to spearhead the preaching work.   Show me another people who has the infrastructure to fulfill jehovah's will regarding preaching in most countries and I may believe your pitiful criticisms.  These are ordinary men running an operation for their food and keep.  They feel priviledged by jehovah to do this assignment. 

I have worked in corporations where CEOs get bonuses that are in the millions.  They make terrible mistakes and mess up the corporation ......and just before it collapses get even a higher CEO job at another BIGger corporation with more pay. Arrogant and stupid and very capable to make the same mistake over and over.  One of them had a driver and a big limo with so much airs very few people felt worthy to speak to him. The old corporation he worked for gets a new name, new ownership and a new CEO who brings in different measures to curb spending, diversify business etc.  YET people expect the GB to get it right the first time such as when the TV Broadcasts started etc. 

Israel, as a nation was soooooo imperfect and jehovah used them. What I see here on this forum with certain individuals is a tremendous arrogance - their right to critisize.  Well, Satan gave himself the right to critisize the way jehovah chose to use his sovreignty. JAH was so gentle, that arrogant Satan used the gap to downsize Jah himself!.  

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It is when our personal opinion is no longer in line with scriptures that we ourselves go beyond that which is written. Who will stop the arrogance - you yourself must do this. If your self-control is not sufficient you can become like Cain who had no self-control and caused the death of his own kin. Spiritual death and stumbling blocks are more serious.  People are only shunned in the congregation when they become rebellious in their sin.

I have a lot of personal opinions - much too opinionated  - and I know it. I have never been spoken to about it and I am aware that as a woman I cannot stand out too much.  I am happy about it because my main focus is to preach.  If I am ever spoken to, I will definitely tone my opinions down.  I am fun.  The young women love to work with me because we always have fun. I am upbuilding, I am a confidante, I  bring my share and I have ample room to move in Jehovahs organization....... I even feel important and blessed.  But not in the way others want to feel important. 

If one meditates about Jehovahs word and read a lot  - you are bound to come up with thoughts that are not found in the Insight Book.... or have not found it yet.  I have a good understanding of the truth and will never attend "clubs" for witnesses.  This is the only forum I share my thoughts.  I do not pretend to be a scholar because to me it is too "churchy-institutionalized". 

 I thank jehovah every day for his blessings and the insight I get from Him because I do not think that scholars have ever got it right.  The scholars in Jesus's day, in all the theological institutions in our day, do not even have a clue what the "sacret secret" is. Their guest is knowledge, not love. Their guest is ego, not love, their guest is to dominate other peoples minds with their own ideas - not love.  Yes, there were those among us who are like "rocks" in our love-feasts- and jehovah is busy with a cleansing work - cleaning out those who cause stumbling.  Did he not say he will start with his own people?

 

The Governing Body are often compared to Moses. *Though why is anyone's guess, as GB are not inspired) 

However, I tend to think on this. Although Moses did many good things in line with God's instructions, he did disobey God.

If my thinking is correct, Moses was told to 'speak to the rock' not to hit it. 

Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the congregation to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting and fell on their faces. The glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord spoke to Moses and said, "Take the staff, and then with Aaron your brother assemble all the community and, in front of them all, speak to the rock and it will yield water. You shall bring forth for them water from the rock, for them and their livestock to drink."

Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he had commanded him. Then he and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock, and said to them, "Listen to me, you rebels. Shall we bring forth water for you from this rock?"

Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed forth in abundance, and they all drank, men and beasts.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not lead this assembly into the land which I promised to give them."  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there is a lesson here to be learnt.  It seems that Moses jumped ahead of following God's instructions. It seems as if Moses was putting himself in the place of God. "Shall WE bring forth water.. " Instead of saying God will give you water.  

Does the Governing Body jump ahead of God's instructions ? 

Moses also called God's people 'rebels'.   Does the Governing Body judge God's people as rebels ?

We know for FACT that the Governing Body  'are not inspired of God' and that they 'make mistakes and err'.  So do they in fact deliberately run ahead of God's instructions ?  

This topic is about Apostates. But could not the Governing Body become apostates if they run ahead of God's instructions and deliberately make things up to suit their own needs ?  (the overlapping generations as one example). 

Mentally diseased. Who are we to judge ? Are the Governing Body using that term to their own advantage ?

Remember that Moses took it into his own head to take control "Shall WE bring forth water .. " 

Jesus spoke of water as a 'living water' 'life giving water', I believe. But we know Jesus was highly approved by his heavenly Father.   Is the water coming forth from the Governing Body, 'life giving water' from above ? Or is it man made 'water' and of no real use ?

Therefore if a person genuinely believes that the 'water' coming forth from the Governing Body is not approved of by Almighty God, and if then that person chooses to leave the Organisation, are they really 'mentally diseased apostates ?  I think Almighty God will decide through Jesus Christ as judge.. 

 

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On 11/10/2019 at 9:43 PM, Witness said:

Because of the act of shunning, wouldn’t you say that all four in our house are considered, “apostates”?

It sounds like a lot of JWs are treating all of you as if you were all apostates.

I've seen situations in households that sounded similar where the persons who were not disfellowshipped were still associated with as a way to continue to keep tabs on other persons. I've see situations where the non-disfellowshipped members had the exact same views as the disfellowshipped but family members continued to associate with the non-disfellowshipped ones as a means to continue having the semblance of some kind of family: especially to see children, grandchildren, etc. Also, I have seen cases, and this includes one of my now deceased uncles, who was baptized young, and disfellowshipped when he left as a teenager. Long before I was born, he would say stupid and terrible things about JWs and Jehovah, just to get a rise out of my mother and grandmother (his sister and mother). But over the years he settled down, got married, raised kids, took good care of his wife and his share of taking care of his mother and other elder aunts and uncles of his. But he couldn't come back to the JWs if he wanted to, because he was now an "affirmed" atheist/agnostic with no interest in religion - but no interest in speaking out against religion, either. By the time I was growing up, we never went out of our way to visit him and his family, but they were often over at my grandmother's house.

So, a disfellowshipped person, who is now an atheist and who doesn't focus on JWs is somewhere near the middle of this spectrum.

Some of the groups on the spectrum therefore include:

  • JWs in good standing who apostasized from other religions.
  • Former JW's who were not DF'd, but who drift away because they have no interest in speaking out against JWs. These would not really be distinguishable from those who drift into inactivity for unknown reasons.
  • Former JW's who were disfellowshipped and or who left because they couldn't live up to moral standards.
  • Former JW's who were disfellowshipped for any known reasons but so long ago that a kind of unwritten "statute of limitations" has run out, especially for purposes of associating with family and relatives.
  • Former JW's who were "stumbled" by something they saw, or experienced: abuse, 1925, 1975, changed teachings, etc.
  • Former JWs who didn't want to be disfellowshipped, but who were "cast out of the synagogue" because they felt a conscientious need to speak out against one or two specific teachings or practices. (Those who did not "push" away but who were "pushed.")
  • Former JW's who speak out against specific teachings or practices, but for whom their confusion is chalked up to a mental illness they have no mental capacity to overcome. (I'm talking about an obvious mental illness handicap of some kind, not merely an accusation.)
  • Those DF'd for apostasy, but who we never hear from again.
  • Those DF'd for apostasy, but who continue to make noise against JWs.
  • Those NOT DF'd for apostasy, but who make a lot of noise and accusations specifically against JWs

Then we also have a category, of those who are truly apostate, but who are not found out and remain in full association. Perhaps they find ways to undermine fellow JWs or manipulate, sometimes in a more subtle way, perhaps by a haughty attitude, perhaps by giving them a bad reputation in the way they take advantage of others. Some may find semi-anonymous settings in which to create contentions, and make strong judgments to "curse" others. Some may get away with their own immoral practices and defend themselves in ways that draw in the vulnerable. These are like the rocks/reefs in Jude 1:12:

When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots. (New Living Translation)
 

There are some who do speak up and offer false or confusing teachings, or maybe even true teachings but in a way that creates disorder and confusion.

We should remember that there were those who would speak up in the early Christian congregation with a saying or a bit of knowledge or a tongue, or a translation for someone who had been moved to speak in a tongue. Not all of these bits of knowledge would make sense to everyone. Paul knew that. John knew that. Not everything would build up. Sometimes the utterance would be worthless, or worse, might appear to have been from a demonic spirit. These gifts were causing confusion, and Paul wished to bring some order to the congregations. Ultimately, a simple solution was apparently implemented. If it promoted Jesus Christ as Lord, let it stand.

(1 Corinthians 12:1-3) . . .Now concerning the spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 . . .  3 Now I would have you know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit.

(1 John 4:1, 2) . . .Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God,. . .2 This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God.

(Revelation 19:10) . . .For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.”

Because of the wide variety of persons both inside and outside the congregation to watch out for, I think a lot of the onus is on individual Christians to decide who is good or bad association for themselves. The apostate may feel himself under no obligation to stand off from us, so we have to "apostasize" from them, especially those who continue to associate. We "mark" them. But if they have not stood away from us, and still want to associate, then technically they might not even be "apostates" and we should not judge them so harshly. But if we feel they are not building us up spiritually, and we seem not to be able to offer them anything, then they can be to us like a man of the nations or a tax collector. We can therefore associate as needed, but always, as with anyone, we keep a view to how this association might build us up or tear us down, and therefore we are very careful of such associations.

When we use the expression, "they went out from us because they were not of our sort," we have to be careful that we are referring to the sort of people we should be. We should be the sort of persons who will continue to show love to all kinds of persons, even our enemies. We have to be careful that we have not become the sort who judge harshly, or who push people away just because we don't understand them, or because we are too haughty to be questioned.

 

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27 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It seems that Moses jumped ahead of following God's instructions. It seems as if Moses was puttin

It was disobedience. He was told to speak to the rock.  The previous time jehovah told him to hit the rock..... so he did as he did the previous time.

 

 

 

 

Could not copy link-  apologies

This idea that one can apostacize from another religion is ludicrous. One can only apostacise from the truth. There is only one truth - you either have it or you do not.  

JWs do not teach immortality of the soul, hellfire, heavenly calling for everyone,  that kingdom is a condition of the heart, trinity,  hide jehovahs name.... and I can go on and on...... these are truths that others Christian denominations do not teach.

But I do agree that we should not judge too fast or harshly when people have questions....  always show love.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

What is the point today? We have understood the scriptures, which refer to the nations on the earth for a 1000 years,  for 84 years.  So this proves that if these scholars had the Spirit of jah they would have understood it too!

I was just remembering how easy it is to criticize, and how it made us feel superior that we could make fun of the beliefs of others. I also remember how it struck me that the Watchtower had been teaching this same thing for about HALF of its existence (50 out of 100 years) when I first learned that Russell had defended another point of view from the Bible. According to you, if Russell had the spirit of Jah he would have understood it, too, but he never did. I don't judge him that harshly.

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2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I was just remembering how easy it is to criticize, and how it made us feel superior that we could make fun of the beliefs of others. I also remember how it struck me that the Watchtower had been teaching this same thing for about HALF of it's existence (50 out of 100 years) when I first learned that Russell had defended another point of view from the Bible. According to you, if Russell had the spirit of Jah he would have understood it, too, but he never did. I don't judge him that harshly.

No I never would have expected Russel to understand everything as some people do.  Jehovah gives information as we need it.    This is why I do not critisize them as some people here on this forum do.  

 

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50 minutes ago, Arauna said:

This idea that one can apostacize from another religion is ludicrous.

This is usually true in the common usage of the term, and in the majority of Bible uses, too. I was only going by the definition, and how it is used in ancient Greek and sometimes in the Bible.

*** it-1 p. 126 Apostasy ***
This term in Greek (a·po·sta·siʹa) comes from the verb a·phiʹste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.” (Ac 21:21, ftn) In classical Greek the noun was used to refer to political defection, and the verb is evidently employed in this sense at Acts 5:37, concerning Judas the Galilean who “drew off” (a·peʹste·se, form of a·phiʹste·mi) followers. The Greek Septuagint uses the term at Genesis 14:4 with reference to such a rebellion. [(Genesis 14:4) 4 They had served Ched·or·la·oʹmer for 12 years, but they [[apostasized, LXX]] in the 13th year.

However, in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used primarily with regard to religious defection; a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith. The religious leaders of Jerusalem charged Paul with such an apostasy against the Mosaic Law.

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5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:
16 hours ago, Arauna said:

Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom?

I am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

According to the Book, those who go there are to “rule.”

with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Revelation 5:10) 

It is a meaningful verse to me. It shows the purpose of the heavenly hope. It shows the silliness of all persons thinking they are going there.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

Well—maybe they just want the perks, not unlike the hordes in government today.

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      “AND JUST AS A CLEVER FORGER TRIES TO PASS PHONY DOCUMENTS, SO APOSTATES USE ‘COUNTERFEIT WORDS’, OR FALSE ARGUMENTS, TRYING TO PASS THEIR FABRICATED VIEWS AS IF THEY WERE TRUE.” 
      Here's an example of a fabricated view:
      Wt. 14/1/15 - “How did Jehovah become King in 1914, and what were some of the Kingdom’s early accomplishments? The subsequent famines, earthquakes, and pestilences as well as the fulfillment of other Bible prophecies proved CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ had begun to rule in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914. By enthroning his Son as the Messianic King, Jehovah had, indeed, become King in a new sense!” 
      The SYMBOLIC famines, earthquakes, pestilences are the labor pains that PRECEDE the birth of God’s Kingdom. This is the natural order of birth. Luke 21:8,9; Mark 13:8; Ezek 22:28  
       “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your ]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a MESSAGE OR A LETTER AS IF FROM US, TO THE EFFECT THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.” 2 Thess 2:1-4
      Watchtower continues: 
      “THEY SPREAD 'DECEPTIVE TEACHINGS,' 'TWISTING'...THE SCRIPTURES TO FIT THEIR OWN IDEAS. (2 Pet. 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16)” 
      Twisting the scriptures, and creating new doctrine such as:
      Wt 02/8/1 - “Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. Hebrews 13:7,17" 
      JWs, go back to the scriptures to find the truth:
      Num 18:7 - “But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the veil, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift, BUT AN UNAUTHORIZED PERSON WHO COMES NEAR THE SANCTUARY WILL BE PUT TO DEATH."
       Who are the Temple sanctuary?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 2Chron.13:9; Ezek 22:26;Eze.44:6,7,8,9; 2Thess.2:4; Dan.11:31; Matt.24:15; Rev 11:1,2
      “CLEARLY, APOSTATES DO NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. FOLLOWING THEM WOULD DIVERT US FROM THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE”. 
      Shepherd the Flock book, page 65 (the previous version) – 
      “Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion.”
      It includes: 
      “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to bible truth…
      AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”
       
       
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot
      “The Kingdom—1914?”
      “The Sign of the End”
       
       
    • By SciTechPress
      VentureBeat
      EU hate speech rules backed by Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Microsoft
      VentureBeat
      BRUSSELS – Facebook, Twitter, Google's YouTube and Microsoft pledged on Tuesday to review requests for the removal of hateful content posted on their platforms within 24 hours as part of a code of conduct agreed with EU regulators. Authorities across ...

      and more » Google
    • By SciTechPress
      The Verge
      Facebook, Twitter, Google, and Microsoft agree to EU hate speech rules
      The Verge
      Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, and YouTube today agreed to European regulations that require them to review "the majority of" hateful online content within 24 hours of being notified — and to remove it, if necessary — as part of a new "code of conduct ...
      Europe enlists tech companies to help end online hate speechEngadget
      Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft And YouTube Commit To Prevent Hate Speech Following Brussels Terror AttacksInternational Business Times
      Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and Microsoft Sign Hate Speech AgreementFortune
      VentureBeat -Financial Times
      all 8 news articles » Google
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
      I was a teenager in the 60's,  and I had a good friend that on Scout camping trips I introduced to the Truth, and I was there in NYC at Yankee Stadium when he was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witness. He was a true "straight arrow", and pioneered, always dressed immaculately, and eventually over the years became an Elder.
      One night, at an Elder's Meeting, he announced to the other Elders that he was Jesus Christ, and that his mother was the virgin Mary, and of course he was disfellowshipped.
      He spent several years in private mental institutions until his insurance money ran out, then in a State institution for several years.
      He called me up, and told me the story, and I told him I was the Great Turtleman, and every November, before I hibernated, I rose from the swamp and gave toys to all the good little boys and girls.  I was just pulling his leg, but he was dead serious.
      Later, he was in England, while his wife was trying without success to get him to take his medications, and fell over a balcony at Heathrow Airport and got killed.
      DO  WE STILL  DISFELLOWSHIP  THE  MENTALLY  ILL ?
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      A major front page headline and two page article in Sweden's Metro newspaper.
      The Metro newspaper is a free newspaper that distributes 550,000-copies daily with a daily readership of some 1,153,000 people
      http://www.tmnww.com/metro-network/metro-europe/metro-sweden
      HBTQ = Homosexual, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer.
      Defector: Jehovah's film dangerous to the children
      Jehovah's Witnesses Show Movies That Disregard Children's HBTQ - Missing permission
      I'm compared to pedophiles and killers - to the joy of the sect
    • By Jan Malviluoto
      Swedish police investigates, among other things, film shown at regional convention day 3 
      I don't have time to translate this now because I have to go now for the 2nd day of the special convention in Oslo

      https://www.metro.se/artikel/efter-metros-avslöjande-om-jehovas-vittnen-polisen-inleder-förundersökning-om-hets-mot-folkgrupp
    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.
    • By Jack Ryan
      POLK COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – A Polk County mother is outraged after she claims a school bus driver used her son to spread hate. Natalie Encarnacion told News Channel 8 that the bus driver, now identified as Violeta Jacobo, told her seven-year-old son he would go to hell for supporting his mom’s same-sex relationship. One afternoon, in the beginning of February, her son had missed his bus from Alta Vista Elementary School, so a different bus driver took him home. “He mentioned [to the bus driver] he was hoping his two mom’s wouldn’t be upset that he was home so late,” Encarnacion said. “She said ‘whoa God doesn’t like that,’ then she went on and on telling him how he wouldn’t make it into heaven and there is a such thing as hell.” She claims the bus driver even sent him home with a Jehovah’s Witnesses card, and hate in his heart. “Later that night, he explained why we should not be together anymore,” Encarnacion said. “He is absolutely questioning this now, something we have so smoothly transitioned into and never had any issues with.” Encarnacion said she contacted the school board and never heard back. She also contacted DCF. She told News Channel 8 the agency looked into the incident, but closed the case when they did not find any neglect. According to Polk County School Board Spokesperson Jason Geary, they are still reviewing the matter. However, they have spoken to the bus driver and instructed her that she must follow the code of ethical conduct. According to Geary, Violeta Jacobo is an active bus driver, employed since August 31, 2012. There is no past disciplinary action in her personnel file. “It’s shocking and it’s infuriating to know that nobody is doing anything about it. Just the thought that she could do this to other kids.” Encarnacion said she hopes something is done so she can’t do this to another family. “I am extremely devastated. My home life and everything is being affected by this. My son is rebelling against our relationship and it’s just putting everything into question. It’s really upsetting and I hope nobody ever has to go through this,” she said. “This has put hate in his heart.”

      http://wfla.com/2017/03/07/polk-woman-claims-school-bus-driver-told-7-year-old-son-he-would-go-to-hell-for-moms-same-sex-relationship/
    • By Michelle
      How ridiculous. Anyone asking such questions is not reading the material nor either listening to or attending meetings. Uniforms? Smacks of apostate individuals spreading falsehoods. 
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    • Wouldn't a core doctrine be one in which we put "unwavering" faith. This is the whole reason I mention "core" or "key" doctrines. If we were to be killed unless we publicly renounced our faith in Jehovah God as the Creator, and Jesus Christ as the one through whom the Ransom comes, we should be willing to die for that doctrine. I would not be willing to die over my certainty that Jesus was only using hyperbole when he said that the men of Sodom would do better in a resurrection of the unrighteous on Judgment Day, than persons in towns that rejected Jesus during his earthly ministry. (Only the most diabolical of inquisitors would ask such a question anyway. I think I would go for "theocratic war strategy. 😉 )
    • I like that. It's an excellent explanation of one of the points made in the day's text and commentary. Perhaps. And so were all the 1 year old babies destroyed in the Flood. And so were the 185,000 of Senacherib's troops. I used that one because it's one for which most of us would be the least surprised if we discovered that the WT changed the teaching again.  Not sure what you mean. I already believe that the primary core doctrine is God's value through his Son's ransom sacrifice. Other doctrines are also just as necessary, though.  There actually is a contradiction between the Bible and AD 1914. And we don't need any independent understanding not supported by Scripture, such as the independent understanding of John Aquila Brown, or more specifically, that of Nelson H Barbour, neither of which were supported by Scripture. It should ALWAYS be the exploit of any faithful Witness to uncover truth and try to resolve any contradictions that can be resolved by Scripture itself, not anything independent of Scriptural support.  On the matter of the 1914 doctrine, an easier explanation with human controversy --but no scriptural controversy-- has already been posted. Easier isn't proof that it's better, but it's definitely easier. Here it is: Jesus came to earth to preach about a God's Kingdom through Christ and give himself over to death as a perfect ransom for sin, to fulfill the Law, and SIT AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND and therefore RULES AS KING since the time of his resurrection in 33 CE. That's it. Simple. No contradictions with any Scripture. From that point on, in 33 CE he SITS AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND and therefore RULES AS KING ruling in the midst of enemies, including war, famine, sickness, and will continue ruling as king until God has put all enemies under his feet, including the last enemy: death.  The current belief in 1914 creates a contradiction with this very point, because we are currently forced to ignore 1 Cor 15:25, which indicates that "sitting at God's right hand" is the same as "ruling as King." Right now, our current teaching is that Jesus sat at God's right hand in 33, and THEN LATER began ruling as king in 1914. Paul says that Jesus began ruling as king WHEN he sat at God's right hand. I'm swapping them because they mean exactly the same thing to me. No difference. Doctrine means teaching. True but notice the words that Paul used instead of "sit at my right hand" here: (1 Corinthians 15:25) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. Turns out that when a king sits on a throne, this is actually an expression meaning rule as king. Just like when we say that a man "sat on the throne" starting in AD 1066, for example. Turns out that a king does not have to stand up from a throne to begin ruling as king. Turns out that sitting on a throne is not a synonym for just waiting around. By that logic, Jesus is not even NOW ruling as king, because God has not yet put the last enemy Death beneath his feet. (1 Corinthians 15:25,26) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
    • If only you would stop quoting outside sources, and just be more basic with your comments, then i may understand them . Yes I understand 'if your throw out all the good, only the bad is left.  But the reverse is, if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  
    • @JW Insider Quote " The day's text is about the resurrection, and the commentary speaks of the importance of including this among our key doctrines, as if it might not have been "up there" with the rest. " That seems rather strange to me. But then they are getting short of things to say.  However, i would have thought every Christian, no matter what ever 'sect' or  pigeon hole you put them in, would definitely believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and put it up near the top of important beliefs.  However making Bible Facts, doctrines, seems unfair to God and to the Bible itself.  doctrine a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.   It's as if the JW Org tries to 'own' such things. @TrueTomHarley quite often goes on about the things that the JW Org teaches. As if those things 'belonged to the JW Org'.  Whereas a lot of the same beliefs are held by thousands of people, and they not all being of the same organisation.     Quote " The Teaching about Christ's Kingdom -  Of course that final one might be a nod to "1914" as a key teaching, but it is worded here in such a way that no one could dismiss Christ's Kingdom as a key teaching. "   Now here we see a difference between Bible truth and JW doctrine.    Christ's Kingdom is Bible truth.   1914 is JW Org doctrine.   (This would bring us back to. Would a person be d/fed or 'watched' if they did not believe the 1914 doctrine?)    Matthew 22 v 44    ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? So if Jesus was to sit at Gods right hand, until God had put Jesus' enemies beneath Jesus' feet.  Then Jesus could not have had the power to do it himself. Therefore surely Jesus was not ruling as King immediately ?    As for 1914, we know that no one of the Bible Students or JW leaders, were or are inspired of Holy Spirit. So maybe 1914 is just another guess or misuse of scriptures.    What is your view of the difference between 'Core doctrines' and Key teachings ?    And you seem to keep swapping expressions from Core doctrines, to Core teachings, to Key teachings.  Can you explain the difference please ?    
    • I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer. If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here.  I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.” Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.” Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.
    • Perhaps you are reading something into the book of Jude that I haven't been able to see. To me, the reason for the letter was this: Jude 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. This was similar to the problem in Corinth, where certain brothers were PROUD that they could put up with a notorious case of incest, due to a misunderstanding and misuse of "undeserved kindness." (1 Corinthians 5:1, 2) . . .Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. 2 And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst? Such persons who used the idea of forgiveness, mercy, and undeserved kindness (grace), as an excuse for loose/brazen conduct were not blowing the whistle on wrongdoing, but were PROMOTING wrongdoing. It was the same as dismissing and speaking abusively against things that Jesus himself had said to "prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." Michael wouldn't even speak abusively of the Devil and yet these people are going to go further than that and think it's OK to speak abusively of Jesus and the angels? It's also possible that the leaders (elders) are considered the "glorious ones" but this makes less sense to me. Perhaps a topic for further discussion?
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