Pure Worship of Jehovah​—Restored at Last!

[Srecko Sostar]

Dear Mr. SM

You may not agree with the opinions, attitudes, beliefs of other people. That's your right. As it is right for anyone else here.

But I have noticed that you love/enjoy, when you humiliate other people because they have different thinking than/from your's. You (often) assign them with various depreciatory attributes. Some of us are your targets on daily basis :)))), and your behavior in this manner is not something that can be called  as - The Christian way.  

What I have noticed is this, I do not remember that Witness ever sent you any offensive word !!!

Well, i can see difference between her's Christianity and your's Christianity. :)))

[Space Merchant]

15 hours ago, Witness said:

It’s time to tell you, SM, I am not a “he”, but a “she”.  It shouldn’t matter though, since anointed are neither “male or female”; but for you, I am sure all “hell” will break lose and you will write me a book about it.  Gal 3:28

Then what of you literally, hence why I refer to you as such, for if you are indeed female, I will make reference to you as such, but if male, vice versa. But now you show yourself this I can see as of recent for I mistook you for male since our early discussion and during that time there was no indication on your part whatsoever.

Now, this verse I had already explained, and this first is of those of the spiritual house which is correct, but it does not disqualify what orderly worship is, hence why I stated previously, emotions and options cannot counter fact that of what the Church professed (we can only learn and understand and apply but the core things of the church we never do away with - ever), the very reason I asked you to give me an actual name of such a person in religious office before you did give the information and you attempted to use a judge in place of a religious leader, thus as the history of Christian entails, as with the church Jesus built - what you were pushing in our last discussion was not only nowhere to be found in the Bible, but it has no mention or practice in the history of the church, granted from the 1st to 4th century and onward we see what Paul means in regards to Orderly Worship.

That being said, I can gladly show Kosonen the discussion, if need be. For if what you were professing was indeed truth, then it would be evident in our history, which in this case, is unfounded, thus all those Biblical Facts I mentioned is indeed true. I make this same case with such ones who make claim women cannot do anything and or give aid by means of the roles they have in the church, even speak, hence why they find any discussion in this regard as difficult when on Apostle Paul's part, it is very simple.

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

It is amazing that two worthless anointed women from the WT, are able to discern the man of lawlessness standing in the Temple of God, isn’t it, and continually expose the Man of Lawlessness for what it has done to God’s priesthood.  Rev 11:1-3   What was God thinking anyway!  Maybe He was thinking that men in their haughtiness who rule the organization, would see just what God meant when Mary proclaimed, “He has put down the mighty from their thrones and exalted the lowly”.  Luke 1:52…..

Or when Jesus said, “For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”….Matt 23:12…

Ps 138:6 – “Though the Lord is on high,
Yet He regards the lowly;
But the proud He knows from afar.”

 

And yet to teach something that is totally against the church yet when prove is asked of you, nothing was said and cannot be brought up in terms of Christianity's History and or what is found of the Bible, hence you trying to mix in those of the Spiritual House with how the Church is Structured.

One of the reasons why Christians who know who so and so are, as with others, do not agree with them in the slightest if it is something accursed and or a teaching that never originated in the Church Jesus built.

Very reasons why Matthew 15:6 can be used in this sense, as with Matthew 7:23 in terms of those who defy God's Law and what Jesus had commanded. This also goes for those who water down Christ's whole as a King and Mighty Warrior, as per last discussion.

No one thinks for God, hence why people such as myself will defend God's Purpose, God's Will, God's Order, God's Love, according to Scripture, if need be.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

“Orderly worship” concerns the anointed Body of Christ, where again, it doesn’t matter who is female or male. They are all “living stones”.  Eph 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:5,9  I also know many male anointed ones who seem just fine with what I do, or with what Pearl does.  They are my brothers in Christ.

Indeed, this I proclaimed to you before. But it does not negate Apostle Paul's own words, nor does it negate the Structure of which Paul professes. Reasons why he spoke of Creation, of man and or woman and the evident roles in the Church.

If they are just fine, can you inform us here a female church leader of religious office between the 1st to 4th century of the church's history? If Pearl things otherwise, how does is this seen as a truth to you when it was never in practice? The very core of what our last discussion was about - such of which has been refuted with undeniable fact.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

The message in Revelation is to the anointed priests of God and those with them. 

Ok, but what does that have to do with God's Order in terms of the evidence we see in regards to Apostle Paul? Yes both men and women are of the Spiritual House, they can be chosen by God hence being of the Priesthood - but we see nothing in the Bible or the history of the church whereas the roles in which Paul professes is shared between the sexes let alone shifted - as of what I made a response to you before, for unlike you and to Pearl - Paul, a man who has the holy spirit upon him does not make mistaken opinions, be speaks what is true to what we see in the Scriptures.

Plus this also put you in a position of mixing information even verses to justify something that has nothing to do with a passage and or the church, like the time you had turned a justify a Strong's word in a verse that was metaphorical and not literal.

As I have said to you before. Teach yourself before you teach others, otherwise people will come to correct, even be critical with you, as with those who can see and discern false information from true information.

That being said, Biblical Facts are solid, and God isn't the author of confusion, so the church and her teachings have not changed to carter to the emotions and opinions of those who wish to change the church into something entirely different.

That being said, made a response to Kosonen, not you, after all, the lot of you had the luxury of making a referring to me, and yet when the tables are turned, there is quite the gnashing of the teeth.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

You are full of misconceptions concerning the anointed and the Watchtower.  I am very sorry about this.  Also, the two men that you mention are not JWs, nor does it seem they ever were.  They are not anointed “priests” of God.  

Am I? Can you show the evidence to that when I had spoken boldly of the chosen ones of the Priesthood?

Who said they were JWs? Never once I had made the claim that they are, nor have I stated Mr. White to be a JW. They, as in all of them, are of mainstream Christendom, like you, they too believe God's Order of how the Church is has no say in the actual practice of the church vs. what is accursed.

Both Wood and Smith are, like you, focuses their time and energy to use conspiracy and misconceptions to deal blows to the other.

The difference between them and you is the fact they refuse the truth itself and will do everything in their power to take you down because of it, even going as far as to send their "people" after you. You on the other hand, I merely see as misguided, and needing to stand up to understand the Scriptures, and perhaps the Strong's also because like them, you mixed that up as well.

For even if I gave you the information from either blue letter or biblehub, you somehow miss it or refuse it when the Strong's speak louder than claims in the matter.

That being said, elsewhere, like Pearl, Mr. Wood, Mr. Smith, Mr. White, and a whole list of others are being talked about, as is with those of Babylon's religion that is of the Kairos Movement, but of course you have no idea of what took place in the span of years in this regard, hence why even before I told you to be careful of such ones, unless you consider one warning of such to be an insult, best take that advice because many have fallen to such, as last month was an example.

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear Mr. SM

You may not agree with the opinions, attitudes, beliefs of other people. That's your right. As it is right for anyone else here.

I go by what the Bible says, I go by what Christian History says, and if a man professes God sent Satan to do away with the firstborns of the Egyptians, of course I will speak up. If you read the Bible, you'd understand what it means to understand what is the truth and to even defend it, and if someone says such a thing that is not in accordance with such, something can and will be said, as is with the misconceptions of others.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But I have noticed that you love/enjoy, when you humiliate other people because they have different thinking than/from your's. You (often) assign them with various depreciatory attributes. Some of us are your targets on daily basis :)))), and your behavior in this manner is not something that can be called  as - The Christian way.  

Can you show me an example of where I take delight and enjoyment in such, if I may ask? Because in most of my response I even tell people to repent, do the research, learn the history and so forth. You consider educating oneself as an insult?

I do not target such ones, like I said before, if someone makes a response to me even make mention of me, a response will follow by me. If someone speaks something that is not of the Bible, a response from me will be expected. If someone speaks of falsehood and conspiracy, expect a response from me. Did you think I was not serious in my own words, Srecko?

I defend Abraham from your response before, I am not the time to remain silent on to a man who speaks ill of Abraham, the man who is a friend of God.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What I have noticed is this, I do not remember that Witness ever sent you any offensive word !!!

He never said anything offensive, I recall all discussions on his end. Despite my stance with him I do encourage him to read and research, even tell him misinformation can cause such ones like Witness to stumble and or be misguided, which seems to be the case.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, i can see difference between her's Christianity and your's Christianity. :)))

Ok, then you tell me who is right in the matter?

• I profess that God's Order has never changed, hence why how the Church is structure, both men and women have roles in the church, but the roles have not changed.
• In my last discussion with Witness, the view profess was that anyone can have any role within the church, regardless of the person's sex and makes a justification by throwing in the spiritual house which does not counter to the fact of Paul's on words on the matter.

You tell me who is correct and who is incorrect in accordance with Apostle Paul?

Clearly one who is telling the truth, the other is misguided.

[Space Merchant]

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think i will continue to like every comment you dislike just for the fun of it all.

Ok. So should it concern me now or when you want to reference elsewhere? Be it direct or indirect because it matters not to me, I will simply make mention of it, as I have recently.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to love linking me with others, so be it.

So far in this thread I only responded to Kosonen about Witness, hence his statement. in the other thread, you were seen in agreement with them, hence why I mentioned you. As I had seen this as an example hence what I discussed with you before on a specific Bible verse, which to your reaction when corrected, you did not like the answer, which was taken from the very source you used.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

. I will join in your game and it will become fun for me.

Games are for children, and clearly I am not one. The same can be said to you.

That being said no one has time for games.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for you implying something like 'Butler said that the GB of JW org are demonised'  Well maybe they are .

I never said you said that so do not twist and or lie here because I can quickly bring up the response. I asked you that question because you were in agreement with Witness and, you even  made an indirect response towards me, so I asked you the very question from the very response of Witness of which you were seem to agree with, moreover, I even added, who brought up that remark, even by name.

You should know better as to what I have said and certianly I never phrased such the way you had written it as seen here "Butler said that the GB of JW org are demonised"?

The actions of a few souls do not define all persons, if an American man commits a crime, it does not define other Americans yet you have people who run that mentality pin the blame on ALL Americans when that is not the case. I stated that because of the actions of a few people it does not define a whole group, I even attest to an example, one man, even if it is a JW or not, his or her actions should he or she do anything criminal, that one does not define the others, he does not define any else of the faith on the other side of the globe, this is also in the realm of race and education but you were quick to say I feel inferior when such an mentality of people is a reality, moreover, at one time you even stated in one of our discussion from your experience in a JW church, you assume all elders are the same, the elders in your church is not like a elder and or pastor in the US, in Asia, all persons are different, all walks of life differ from each other, the actions of a single soul does not define the masses, not to mention calling of judgment when you yourself stated you do not know the person, and yet you judged a teenager who does forgive people.

That being said, you merely defeated yourself because what I had said should be understood as to what I am conveying. You yourself stated you do not judge but you do regardless, yet when you assume someone is judging you you bring forth claim someone is judging, yet it didn't stop you from doing the same to someone who is 3 times younger than you regarding who actually forgives people who do bad things and who does not.

Therefore, granted your claim you'd be wise to know exactly what I said and what I convey otherwise I can, if need be, John 8:44 can be used against you, in this sense. I'd add anther verse, but it will clearly not be in your favor.

Like in Jesus' day, because of how Jews were to their neighbors, some of their neighbors are good people, for if someone did something to someone or the like it does not define all of them. Reasons why we have examples in the bible that teaches such, like the example regarding the Samaritans, surely this should not be avoided by you because it this there regardless of what translation you use, be it a Bible with authentic and or non-authentic text. 

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus said as recorded at John 8 v 44 

 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began,c and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

So you have a chance to redeem yourself here, attest to the claims of which you made elsewhere because right now they remain unfounded.

For what you are professing is as fake as the claim you made that I support Islam when I only explained the faith of Muslims, to add, you even agreed with my statements when I cleared out some misconceptions of that faith group. The irony.

For if you cannot prove that or your claim of me supporting Islam - This verse can be used against you.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees but they had been God's chosen people, part of God's chosen nation.

And your point? Also you do realize some of the Jews at that time were of bad influence, like the ones that were seeking to kill Jesus, right?

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So, think on it, why cannot the GB of JW Org be from 'their father the Devil' ?

Probably because they, like many Christians who are not of the mainstream are seeking the truth and striving to be like the early church, granted that they, as do some, retain their Restorationist roots unlike their counterparts.

That being said, what would I would be fascinated by since you said that is your claim of knowing who is approved of God and who is not. For how, Mr. Butler, you know and or even think for God, in this sense?

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And if that is correct they would be demonised, or would that be Devilised.  

And yet because of your experience you assume all of them are the same. Reasons why I said to you the actions of a few does not define the masses, such is of an absurd mentality practices by the people of today's society, example would be the sheer disdain for all British folk because of reasons, it does not define all British people, it does not define you either because you are in no way shape or form connect to the sins and or ill actions of the culprit. Then again you will be evasive and attest to me or someone else as being and or thinking of oneself being inferior because such one is able to see the world for what it truly is, such one is aware of who is currently ruling this world, as the bible makes it clear.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember that many Jews / Israelites remained in their Jewish faith, but they were wrong not to change.

Your point is exactly? Which begs the question, do you even know the difference between Natural Israel and Spiritual Israel? Granted, you do realize later on in the church the Jews and the Gentiles were also in union with the Christ.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So just because the JW Org has 8 million followers, does not make it right. 

Well they did say they were prophets inspired and or infallible, however, they, like many of us are modern day prophets, Christians, who are spirit led.

That being said, perhaps the difference to a Christian such as yourself and an ancient Christian, an ancient one is not willing to toss up a law and or commandment for the sake of tradition.

Other than that, they are at 8.45-8.5 million adherents according to Christian statistics and demographics.

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If the amount of people in a religion made it right then the Catholic church or Islam would be more right than the JW Org  

So now you are confusing Christendom with those of creeds and or other - this is a new one. The only thing that is right is the apostolic church and her teachings, and you will be quite surprised of how few are striving to be like that church, which tells you something.

But regardless of anyone from any of those Abrahamic Faiths, it does not disqualify such ones, like you, to be unaware of the Hebrew and or Greek Text and it's context and language forms - as is there is quite the example you posed before.

Therefore, I encourage you to read and study, it will help you greatly, but every time I say this, you do not apply it. Which proves my point time and time again and what I had professed to Witness just now about examples like Wood and Smith.

That being said, I recall asking you a elementary biblical question, for if you could not answer that correctly when people out and about in the world can and will ask you the same thing, that is a sign whereas more reading must be done, and mind you, that was but one of many things people are often asked when the evangelizing ministry work.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

for if you are indeed female

 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

He never said anything offensive, I recall all discussions on his end. Despite my stance with him I do encourage him to read and research, even tell him misinformation can cause such ones like Witness to stumble and or be misguided, which seems to be the case.

 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Did you think I was not serious in my own words, Srecko?

Yes you are serious, no doubt.

But if another participant clearly say to you how She is SHE not HE, why you put that in question? You are not showing respect to Witness as female. Why you are stubborn in calling Her as he?

[Space Merchant]

31 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes you are serious, no doubt.

Always.

31 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But if another participant clearly say to you how She is SHE not HE, why you put that in question?

Well you do realize I just recently found out this revelation that she was female and not male. No indication was presented in all discussion even the earliest ones.

My own words is the following, so perhaps read the full response than take a snippet of it.

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Then what of you literally, hence why I refer to you as such, for if you are indeed female, I will make reference to you as such, but if male, vice versa. But now you show yourself this I can see as of recent for I mistook you for male since our early discussion and during that time there was no indication on your part whatsoever.

So clearly now I know after she said something, clearly if someone has the name of hers I was not able to tell, for example if like Anna, it is understandable because it is evident.

31 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You are not showing respect to Witness as female.

How am I not showing respect if I just found out Witness was female when all this time I thought she was male? Granted I assume she was male this whole time since the other discussions, granted the first discussion was indeed a debate.

And no, as I told Witness in the past, disrupting and or insulting someone of the opposite sex is not something that aligns with my culture, whatsoever. the very reasons I told her before to her claim of my view on women based on the implication she made on a typo, for W to w does not automatically define one as misogynistic.

that being said, it is odd of such coming from you granted what you said of what God thinks of people in regards to a small remark you made on your part, granted, I corrected you that God considers what you professed to as detestable.

31 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Why you are stubborn in calling Her as he?

Perhaps because I recently found out. How is that stubbornness? Moreover, you even cut half of my comment to justify your claims.

That being said, never insulted her either if you making such implication. Someone who encourages one to make the research does not yield upon insult in the end, this also goes for correcting and or rooting our the wrongs.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

when all this time I thought she was male

Yes, you are free to have your free thoughts about all. Will you be so kind to tell us: Why you thought, all this time, she was male? What reason you have to thought that way all this time? 

Well, is it possible how your own a predetermined idea caused wrong perception? Not only in gender issue, of course :)))

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

so perhaps read the full response

.... this is for sure good advice, but please make your comments shorter for purpose to be readable in normal space/time framework. Thanks in advance :))

 

[Space Merchant]

49 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, you are free to have your free thoughts about all. Will you be so kind to tell us: Why you thought, all this time, she was male? What reason you have to thought that way all this time? 

Perhaps because it was mention just now. Granted in some instances if you knew this yourself you'd would have brought this up in many instances in order to correct me.

Regardless, it still does not negate the actions of a few to define all persons of that faith, nor does it disqualify one to speak up on falsehood, misinformation, and or conspiracy.

49 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, is it possible how your own a predetermined idea caused wrong perception? Not only in gender issue, of course :)))

So can you inform me as for months that went on by from 2017 up into now nearly 2019 when I just no found out this revelation it is somehow a predetermined idea? For when I assumed she was male did it not come to you during those times to correct me when I said it, let alone she herself would have corrected me but only now this is known?

Gender issues, no because I defended that, even against you I have. But be it of any gender regarding the church, how the church was brought about still stands, no one can change what God has put in motion and what his Son has built. One of the issues in regards as to where I strongly disagree with those who profess that let alone those who adhere to utter silence and no roles given.

49 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

.... this is for sure good advice, but please make your comments shorter for purpose to be readable in normal space/time framework. Thanks in advance :))

The ironic is you defeated yourself in this sense because that response was indeed short. I even quoted myself, but as always you seem to ignore what is in front of you. Whether my response are brief or extensive, you still adhere to that same reasoning, that being said, the fact you cannot tell who was right or wrong in this sense, pertaining to what was asked of you above, further proves my point.

That being said, God's Order has not changed. Other than that, should I discuss what is being spoken of at hand, surely you would disagree because any person who shifts God's Order would most likely not understand what is to be conveyed in regards to such.

Just know that every time I am brief, the brief response cuts far greater than a sword, and you already seen and experience such an example. I will gladly be as such with you should debate and or discussion calls for it, mainly when you speak ill of anyone of God's followers in the bible, just know what is to come.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, God's Order has not changed.

Not changed in what subjects, about what? That WT belongs to a group (Restoration Group) of true religions that are closest to Primitive Christianity ? And how all "Order" that this Restoration churches have in their systems is from God??

 

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

when you speak ill of anyone of God's followers in the bible

Ill speaking ? You are too harsh. I am speaking openly with critical questions, because all characters in Bible are simply human as we are today. Well, if you speaking about me and I about you, and all together (both of us)  about them, we put their life, words and deeds under some sort of the magnifying glass. We have to question and explore to understand better. If sometimes going very far with that, why you worry? Everything will come to their place, soon or later. :))  

[Space Merchant]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Not changed in what subjects, about what? That WT belongs to a group (Restoration Group) of true religions that are closest to Primitive Christianity ? And how all "Order" that this Restoration churches have in their systems is from God??

Yes, they are Restorationist and only a few of them out there. And you know exactly what I am talking about regarding orderly Worship, don't tell me you forgot already, you were defending something that was never of the church at all, even trying to use Galatians 3 verses to justify your defense when God's Order differs from Being in Union with Christ, it does not chance the structure, as Paul made it clear.

Then you went on to say a woman named Chloe owns a Church, which is, false, on your part. The House of Chloe or Chloe specifically never led a Church of ANY kind.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ll speaking ? You are too harsh. I am speaking openly with critical questions, because all characters in Bible are simply human as we are today. Well, if you speaking about me and I about you, and all together (both of us)  about them, we put their life, words and deeds under some sort of the magnifying glass. We have to question and explore to understand better. If sometimes going very far with that, why you worry? Everything will come to their place, soon or later. :))  

You were harsh on Abraham and Sarah, I merely spoke up to defend them, as with Jesus' disciple. You assume Abraham was influenced by the Devil and that Abraham was selfish and to some extent mocked him, when his wife along with him were trying to survive granted they had the promise of God. You even stated that one of Jesus' disciples was under temptation when he was defending Jesus, which was unfounded.

You set yourself up with those claims, and I haven't even got into your outlandish claims of undeath doctrine you leaned towards, which is, not only accursed, but borderline satanic.

That being said,

you can explore and dwell on your own claims, granted none of them in this regard, cannot be proven.