If Armageddon happened how would we all be killed?

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I declare, every time I respond to you, I am with the hope that JWs become alert to Watchtower’s lies.

But what is professed isn't even a lie, among all things relating to John's Revelation, or in this case, the Book of Revelation, all said is indeed true, but apparently when the JWs come along their own opponents seem to make it seem what is being profess only originates with them, which is utterly false.

Everything regarding the Angel of the Abyss is true, those who believe the Angel to be Satan himself, or the fact Satan locked himself up in his own prison, such ones adhere to the mainstream Christendom and it is obvious, it isn't too far to the doctrine of God using demons to do his bidding, which is also false - a lie.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I repeat, when Jesus bound Satan by “putting him in prison”, or binding his capability to deceive God’s people for a symbolic “thousand years”, he didn’t fall from heaven to do so. Rev 20:1

But earlier you stated that The Angel of the Abyss is Satan, if you believe that Jesus was the one who bounded and hurled Satan to the Abyss and it the only one to have sealed Satan there once all is said and done. Then you have the locust who are to torment the those not being sealed, those of false Christendom, as the references make clear when put into context and the very fact that such signifies the people who profess truth to spread such the people while this in effect is affecting falsehood Christianity.

You make want to re-check the Strongs for "fall" whereas it even tells you that: to descend from a higher place to a lower whereas when reading and applying the verse in context we know that Jesus well be coming from heaven to earth, for he the star that fell from heaven to come to earth, having the key to deal with the Dragon is spoken of to be the ruler of this world. For if you have forgotten, Satan had been long gone from Heaven after war that broke out in Heaven, it would not make sense for Satan to be kicked out a second time from a place of which he had been cut off from God's presence like his demon counterparts - I believe I said something to a similar effect to you before.

And yes, the one who has the key has indeed imprisoned Satan the Devil.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The Greek word for “come down” in Rev 20:1 primarily means to “descend”,

In Revelation 20:1 the Greek word is  katabainó (καταβαίνω), the Strong's number is 2597, it does mean to descend, but do the word justice, gives it full root:

• Definition: to go down
• Usage: I go down, come down, either from the sky or from higher land, descend.
• brought down (1)
• came down (12)
• come down (15)
• comes down (4)
• coming (1)
• coming down (9)
• descend (3)
• descended (6)
•  descending (5)
• descends (1)
• falling down (1)
• fell (1)
• go (1)
• go down (4)
• go downstairs (1)
• going down (3)
• got (1)
• steps down (1)
• went (1)
• went down (11)

With about 82 or so occurrences

And regarding this we already know who was it that came down, who was that specific star that Revelation 20:1 references is regarding when it points back via cross-reference to Revelation 9:1.

That being said, the one who had the key, who came out of heaven on to the earth, this one is the one called Jesus, or to some Michael the Archangel, despite it being the same individual. He is the one who seizes the dragon, the serpent, who is the Devil, bounding him for a 1,000 years and proceeds to toss him into he the abyss and shuts it, sealing it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 year millennium reign has concluded. were ended.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Rev 9:1 – Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth.

And your point?

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The word here for “fall” is an entirely different Greek word. It, too, means to “descend” but…

to descend from a higher place to a lower

A.                 to fall (either from or upon)

i.to be thrust down

B.                 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

I.to descend from an erect to a prostrate position

 .                    to fall down

 .to be prostrated, fall prostrate

You do realize if you scroll down on Blue letter it tells you what is in use, therefore, the fact that you miss this further proves my point.

Let's take the information from blue letter so it can be shown as how you made this error on your own accord.

You put in bold the following for  

• which on Blue letter it points to the occurrences and it reads: . metaphorically: οὐ πίπτει ἐπί τινα ὁ ἥλιος, i. e. the heat of the sun does not strike upon them or incommode them, Revelation 7:16; (ἀχλύς καί σκότος, Acts 13:11 L T Tr WH); ὁ κλῆρος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, the lot falls upon one, Acts 1:20; φόβος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, falls upon or seizes one (Acts 19:17 L Tr); Revelation 11:11 Rec.; (τό πνεῦμα τό ἅγιον, Acts 10:44 Lachmann); πίπτω ὑπό κρίσιν, to fall under judgment, come under condemnation, James 5:12 (where Rec.st εἰς ὑπόκρισιν).

As we can see, we do not see Revelation 9:1 anywhere in hence the fact you put in bold  to justify something is both an error and is unfounded.

• Now let's go to [A] whereas we see on Blue Letter it states the following: [A]. properly, to fall (either from or upon, equivalent to Latin incido, decido): ἐπί with the accusative of place, Matthew 10:29; Matthew 13:5,(Matthew 13:7),Matthew 13:8; Matthew 21:44 (T omits; L WH Tr marginal reading brackets the verse); Mark 4:5; Luke 8:6 (here T Tr WH κατέπεσεν), 8 Rec.; Revelation 8:10; εἰς τί (of the thing that is entered; into), Matthew 15:14; Matthew 17:15; Mark 4:7 (L marginal reading ἐπί); Luke 6:39, R G L marginal reading (but L text T Tr WH ἐμπεσοῦνται); Luke 8:8 G L T Tr WH (Luke 8:14; Luke 14:5 L T Tr WH); John 12:24; εἰς (upon) τήν γῆν, Revelation 6:13; Revelation 9:1; ἐν μέσῳ, with the genitive of the thing, Luke 8:7; παρά τήν ὁδόν, Matthew 13:4; Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5; to fall from or down: followed by ἀπό with the genitive of place, Matthew 15:27; Matthew 24:29 (here Tdf. ἐκ; Luke 16:21); Acts 20:9; followed by ἐκ with the genitive of place (Mark 13:25 L T Tr WH); Revelation 8:10; Revelation 9:1; equivalent to to be thrust down, Luke 10:18.

As we can see, the metaphorical occurrence for this word does not apply to Revelation 9:1 - at all. Perhaps you can fool someone who is a novice in Biblical Hermeneutics regarding Hebrew and Greek Strong's, but clearly you are dealing with someone who takes hermeneutics seriously - even that of the Strong's itself.

So I ask you this, why are you trying to justify metaphorical on to Revelation 9:1? The fact that you did that further proves my point of how some folks need to learn the elementary basics in Strong's, in this regard, that website alone conspired against you in this case.

Here is the link and I suggest you learn about these occurrences (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4098&t=ESV) instead of mixing them up, you can mix Bible verses and be called for it, but when you mix Strong's, it is a Hermeneutical violation.

That being said this was a dead giveaway: metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation as with the equivalents.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

This star didn’t have a choice to leave heaven, as Christ did in Rev 20:1

Actually the Star in question, regarding the Christ, o not act upon his own will, but the will of God, his Father. Jesus is the one who will put his heel on the head of the serpent.

We know this because of God's promise regarding the coming Messiah, the Christ in Genesis 3:15

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

This same verse, specifically part B points to Revelation 20:1, 10, in turn, points back to Revelation 9:1 regarding the star in question.

Remember, Jesus didn't do things on his own, he was under Shaliach Principle, hence, all he says and does is because of God, his Father. I can even quote myself from a previous comment to which I stated:

And it should be known to you by now that Jesus does the Will of his Father, who is God. So if God says he is going to destroy the wicked and those of lawlessness, Jesus will enact the Will of his Father in this regard, for he didn't come the first time to do his own Will, but the Will of the one who sent him (John 5:30, 35, 36, 14:10).

Or as Jesus points it himself:

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.... He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.... Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

It is the same Greek word used in Rev 8:1 – “Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, 

I know the Strong's the word is indeed the same, but the star are not the same, so are the angels who sounded the trumpets, are not the same. That being said, we can see here, there is no metaphorical usage as well, of which you confused in your last response.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

A “star” falls, to poison waters of truth, as a false prophet.  Can it do this without Satan’s spirit?  No. It is given the authority from him to deceive.  Rev 9:11; 13:11,12,13,15; 16:13  The “star” uses that authority to release an “army” that enforces the false prophet’s teachings – an army also receiving power from Satan.  Rev 13:1,2; 9:1

The Star in Chapter 8 is exactly as to what you and what I have said, however this verse does not even point to Revelation 9:1 at all, nor does it equal the star found here to the other verse as the same and anyone can see this with the basics of context in application to Scripture.

Satan's Spirit? I do not know if you realize this, but Satan the Devil is a Spirit, the Wild Beast and the false ones are those who have been influenced by Satan, thus doing his bidding, hence the false teachings and accursed doctrines and a list of other things that has defiled the church, however with that being said, the star of Revelation 9:1 which is a reference to the Christ, hence the list of cross-references that further proves this, shows us that this one has the key to hurl and seal up Satan the Devil.

Authority is regarding the first and second beast as I pointed out to earlier, I believe I mentioned the fourth beast as well, none of them are part of the army of locust that comes out of the abyss itself.

That being said, I will quote this verse again

And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

Only one has the key and or keys, and that same one, this angel, is the one who put Satan in captivity. A cannot have a key to the very place of which he is chained up in, and the prisoner in question sees to attack God's people, not false religion, and the locusts focus is that of false religion and her teachings.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The two together create a “spirit-directed” “image” of authority, as if coming from God and Christ. Rev 13:11,15  The fallen star directs her released army to come against the “kings of the earth” (Rev 9:1) – the saints, (Christ’s kings of the earth Rev 1:5) as well as the “nations” who swallow her lies.  Wormwood’s waters are a combination of truthful “waters”, poisoned with deception.  Rev 13:7 

These stars in question are not together, the very reason you have one who is referred to as wormwood and the other a reference to the angel of the abyss. If the stars in question where working together, spirit-directed as you are claiming, then why would the joining of the two lead to Satan's imprisonment and the Locust in question having targeted false Christendom instead of the true one?

You are falling on your own sword at this point for the context itself triumph over mainstream ideologies.

That being said, if you go to the cross-reference for Revelation 9:1 regarding "earth" in context, it conveys that the star descended from heaven to earth, having been given the key. Furthermore, we know that the Bible and Christ being complementary affinities, each the Word of God (John 1:1-14), then the fact that the descent of the first star is symbolical one in question - The Christ, the bright morning star.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

“She” is a composite of harlot daughters of “Babylon” who “sits on many waters”.  Rev 17:1-6

So you want to speak of Babylon the Great now or still the wild beast, false prophets and Satan? Granted the focus is about the angel of the abyss being given the key and the like.

That being said before, I know we discussed here with you or someone else about Babylon the Great and those under her, even the likes of prophetesses with the spirit of a Jezebel woman and so forth.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

There are not two separate stars, with one being Christ.

Actually they are two separate stars, the cross-references of which I professed before is further evidence of this.

Revelation 9:1 points to Revelation 9:11, 20:1-4, which goes on to 22:16. while Revelation 8:10 points to Revelation 16:1, 4 while verse 11 points to Amos 5:7.

You claim both stars are the same, so I ask you, why in the Bible itself when you look at the cross-references itself they point to these verses, but you never see Revelation 9:1 point directly to the second star of Revelation 8:10, 11?

If you truly know your Bible, you'd see that for yourself, but as I made the point clear, people tend to skip over or remain oblivious to the cross-references of their own Bibles. You have proven my point once again.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

You are thus comparing the fall of an anointed “star” from a heavenly position who becomes a false prophet, and applying its significant fall, to Christ;  just as the Watchtower has done.

falling down from heaven to earth is not demeaning the Christ whatsoever, mainly if context and understanding of the Strong's is in play here. Christ returns with the key to deal with Satan and lock him up so to speak, therefore due to this we can see that The Angel of the Abyss is not Satan, with the basic of logic someone can see this for themselves.

the Watchtower has nothing to do with this belief, and there is enough proof of this because even those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses believe this and applies context instead of accepting surface information, to which you are doing, in this sense, you are watering down Christ's kingship as if he is not going to do anything to the wicked when the Bible makes it clear God will destroy the wicked, and he can and will do this through his chosen Christ - Jesus, of whom he made King, of whom is spoken of to soon defeat and conquer the dragon himself.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Dear SM, this is utterly demeaning to the reigning “Bright Morning Star” of Rev 22:16  Earlier I gave scriptures that relate the anointed ones to "stars".  

You did and you mixed in verses that do not equal to that and I pointed that out. That being said, you cannot try to avoid what the cross-references for Revelation 9:1 points to - if you want to fight against the Bible, I can tell you this - you cannot win a fight with the Word of God itself. So I am merely going by the references, nothing more.

Therefore, I have not demeaning anything whatsoever, granted with enough proof, Scriptural evidence and using actual references instead of mixing verses, when we are to teach and make disciples, we do not mislead them by mixing verses and hiding and or avoiding context, it isn't right.

Then again, some Christians do not like cross-references.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

The abyss is the dark state of “not perceiving”.  We can be part of it, just as the army that emerges from the state of “not perceiving”. 1 Pet 2:9; Eph 6:12; 5:8  It can be a tool of deceit by Satan, or representation of “binding up”, as an imprisonment that Christ used, when figuratively throwing Satan into that state of blindness – of not perceiving, for a symbolic “thousand years”.  Once released from being bound, Satan empowers the fallen star, false prophet to DECEIVE the remaining ones of the woman’s seed.   Rev 8:10-12; 12:4

Then your next problem is the fact that those who represent the Locust are not attacking God's people, but those of false religion with the gospel for a span of 5 months in terms of the lifespan of a Locust.

The abyss also consist of sin and death, and Jesus himself, when risen, spoke to the ones who are to be judged there, the spirits in question were the demons. God would never make use of demons to attack his own people, let alone those who are against him, nor would he ever give Satan such power to do so himself, the very reason why the Locust can be interpreted as those who speak truth against falsehood, for the truth spoken torments that of falsehood, so to speak.

Also, you do realize that just like the demons, Satan will also be imprisoned for that span of time also, that is literal, and after that he will be released, and eventually destroyed - to be met with eternal destruction, as the Bible says.

The second fallen star yes, however, the first one was responsible for sending him to the abyss in the first place. Therefore, you proved my point again whereas we know, when applying context, that the star of Revelation 9:1 isn't the same as the star in Revelation 8:10. and only one of these stars is referred to as the bright morning star in Revelation 22:16, which is in connection with Christ Jesus himself - as the cross-references proves.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

This army/Beast to come against the “saints”, belongs to Satan.  Rev 9:10,11; 13:1,2,4,7; 12:3

Satan isn't the angel of the abyss so the locust do not belong to him.

I will quote your own words because you agreed with me in your earlier response to which you stated:

I repeat, when Jesus bound Satan by “putting him in prison”, or binding his capability to deceive God’s people for a symbolic “thousand years”, he didn’t fall from heaven to do so. Rev 20:1

If you are going to pick a truth, to not change teams on occasion, the truth of the matter is the one who has the key, the angel of the abyss, is the Christ, the one you call Michael.

The saints are not attacked by the army of locust, they are targets of the wild beast and the false prophets whereas the locust in question are against the ones who are on God's side, they're not against God. Also you mentioned Revelation 13:1 regarding the land beast, that alone should show you the difference.

Also the beasts are not an army, there is a few of them that represent the powers of men in this world, for example This beast in question is the one mention that will wage war against and will kill (Revelation 11:7; 13:18), of whom it will fight and kill is very obvious.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

It is an army that God “sends” or allows Satan, who demands each of us to be “sifted”, to enact his delusion against each anointed and companions as wheat or weeds. Luke 22:31;  I’m repeating what I’ve said earlier, I believe. Joel 2:2,4,5,12,20,25-27; 2 Thess 2:9-12 

As stated before the locust are not on Satan's side, for they are the ones to be opponents of those of falsehood. The wild beast, however, are on Satan's side and will conquer and kill, even the holy ones of God.

You referring to this? Wormwood’s locust army is a military strategy hatched under both Satan and Wormwood’s direction; growing to ultimately restrain and torment the dwelling of God, as the the Beast from the Sea. Joel 2:1-5; 2 Thess 2:7; Rev 9:5,10; 13:1,5-7

That being said, only the verses in Joel makes reference to the army of locust and why such is in symbolic use in Revelation and what is drawn from the context, I do not see why you threw in 2 Thess. 2:9-12 when you do not even agree with 2 Thess 2:8.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Many have felt the “sting” of this locust army that comes against the anointed ones. 

But the locust army is spoken of, in the Bible to go after the ones of false Christendom, nowhere you see in any verse in Revelation that they are against the chosen ones. You are confusing the locust for the Wild Beasts, for they can conquer, and they can kill.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

It judges them as unfit for the Kingdom of God, disfellowshipping or “killing” them for refusing to give devotion to the spirit-directed “image” of the Beast.  Rev 13:15   This army “stands” in the Temple of God (1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3,7) as the Man of Lawlessness.  Rev 13:18; 2 Thess 2:3,4  It tramples and replaces the anointed priesthood, wearing “crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men”.   Rev 9:7; Rev 11:1,2; Dan 8:11; 11:36,37

The locust cannot judge, they simply when we understand the context, swarm to spread the gospel that is true, which is a tormenting to those of falsehood. Also the locust cannot kill, so that is another factor against you.

That being said, a bit ironic how you make reference to 1 Corinthians 3:17 when you do not believe that God can destroy even by means of his Son of whom he will send again soon. Also Revelation 11:1-3 and 7 is regarding the Two Witnesses.

You speak of not being deceived, but you push to justify that Satan is the angel of the abyss and think the 2 stars in question are the same. If you believe in not to mislead others, why do you do the very things of which you speak against? It's hypocritical and spiritually unsound.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Who, in tandem, gives them the authority to do so?  Satan and “Wormwood” – the GB.  Matt 24:48-51

And yet their belief in who the angel of the abyss is, the one who has the key is not of wormwood, it is actually true, in fact, even before them, this was spoken of, but people are quick to identify the locust as demons hen in reality they are not, they symbolize those who are like an army, who speak the truth and like and army who takes sword into battle, they, the people, take the gospel into battle like a sword.

The only wormwood that you are sipping right now is the doctrine of mainstream Christendom regarding the angel of the abyss, not to mention ignoring the cross-references in an attempt to justify this accursed doctrine, let alone not aware of the trickery done by your own hand regarding Greek Strong's with occurrences.

If you are this mislead, it would take a long time for you to recover, and the fact that it shows by what you post proves it.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Rev 19:3 

And? Your point?

God's Spoken Word starts at the very beginning of the Bible, Genesis chapter 1 i.e. "Let there be light,” and there was light..." That's elementary biblical knowledge that everyone knows. Also this verse, which points to Isaiah 34:10, has nothing to do with anything you had profess before.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

I know you want to teach me, and I truly believe it is done with sincerity, but it is also done as if you are the only man on earth who has Holy Spirit.

Like I said before, I am but a slave to the Christ and his God, and the truth is what I speak an the truth alone. It should not be a surprise to you when someone speaks incorrectly of a Christology, a Bible truth, historical truth, what have you, I will make the response, and this the obvious is with what is spoken of here as with the watering down of the Christ's kingship, this is something that has to be corrected.

That being said, I say to you, if you did have a portion of the Holy Spirit, you'd be going beyond the surface regarding the passage in question in this discussion, but clearly you have not, and show a disregard for the cross-references, which was not the first time, let alone the evident confusion of Greek Strong's and not realizing that with ALL Strong's there is occurrences regarding a word/words and or a form of a word, etc.

The things we have to be aware of, if not, I will be like how Prophet Isaiah was to the leaders of Judah with you when it comes to the truth.

Another thing is, you tend to confuse things in other verses, even mix them, example would be the verse in Exodus 12:23, of which you refereed to the destroyer here as Satan when in reality it was an angel sent by God, not Satan.

Do not fall on your own sword when it comes to the truth.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

 I do appreciate it when you give links to the meaning of scripture. 

And it should be noted to seek cross-references also, majority of Christendom tends to ignore such, especially Trinitarians.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

But what if, what if, you are the one who may be misled by certain concepts? 

the fact that my childhood consist of strict Bible study and research an the like, this is unlikely.

I haven't mislead anyone with any concepts because I hold the utmost respect to Hermeneutics and Textual Criticism when it comes to the Scriptures, when it comes to the study of Christendom as a whole and the Abrahamic Faiths, I hold true to what is taught and understand what is actually false and what is actually true. As time went on I have confused some things, an the only thing I tend to confuse were condexes and manuscripts, however what I speak of is correct and true despite getting the names of manuscripts mixed up.

And the fact that the culture of my own people forbids deception is another factor, for if you were raised to observe, recite and read the Bible daily, you are to understand it not 100%, but 200% or more so that you come to the conclusion with all the evidence and context in place. This also goes for the total respect of the Hebrew and Greek text and the Strong's, accompanied by the usage of occurrences, both normal and special ones, and the like.

That being said, everything I said, in this discussion alone is true, and I say this because this isn't the first time I discussed the angel of the abyss to those of mainstream Christendom.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

What if Jesus allows others who are anointed, to understand the true meaning of Revelation?  Is that such an impossibility?

Others have, but they have always been shot down by false teachers calling such ones heretics or false prophets, granted of how much influence and power the real false teachers have against those who profess what is true, this influences who the Abbadon in Revelations actually is outside the beef and beans of the core difference in the truth vs. falsehood (Those who believe One God that is the Father vs. those who believe God is Tirune), but even among both sides, the wormwood, the second star, has tainted the waters, which leads to discussions like this.

The chosen ones who are on Jesus' side and on God's side will do the research to figure out the truth regarding Revelation, especially who really is the locust and who is really the angel who has the key, and a list of other things and such ones know that Revelation is symbolical with only a small few things that is literal, such as the number of chosen ones who will reign with the Lord who is Christ.

It is only an impossibility if the truth is at times drowned out by falsehood, hence the army, the people of God who do anything and everything to speak of the truth in terms of the gospel and of the bible in the face of falsehood.

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Just sayin’

Well granted that such a thing is taking place now, or everything from mid-2015 to now, this can be seen, and false teachers are, in this sense, being tormented by true teachers, who speak the truth having their sword, the Bible, in hand in ore to do this.

For the Sword of Yah strikes harder than a sword of common man are against God.

selah; praise Yah.

[Witness]

@Space Merchant

Back to the basics, with big letters for emphasis:

Abbaddon in Hebrew:

Ps 88:11 - "Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ?"

Job 26:6 - "The realm of the dead is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered."

 Job 28:22 – "Destruction and Death say, “Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.”

Job 31:12 -  “It is a fire that burns to Destruction ; it would have uprooted my harvest.”

 Prov 15:11 - "Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!"

This is what you and the WT organization are implying by saying Jesus is Abaddon and angel/king of the abyss.  Rev 9:11  Death and Destruction.  Is this what you want? 

Jesus has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss because he has conquered DEATH.  Satan has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss, who brings DEATH upon us all unless we turn to Christ.

Heb 2:14 - Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through his death he might destroy the one holding the power of death -- that is, the devil.

 Satan gave WORMWOOD, the falling star, a “KEY” – AUTHORITY, POWER – to poison the waters of truth with lies. Rev 8:11; 9:1

“A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.” Rev 8:10

The power of DEATH AND DESTRUCTION WAS GIVEN TO THE FALSE PROPHET, WORMWOOD.

If Jesus Christ was the angel of the abyss, why would it enter his mind to allow the Beast of Revelation 13:1 to “make war” with his priests? Rev 13:7  If one is King of a nation or realm, he rules over it.  You are saying that Jesus used his authority/key to the abyss to release the Beast of Rev 13:1 This is what you and Watchtower are suggesting by saying Jesus fell from heaven to release the locust army, which is the BEAST of Rev 13:1 and 11:7. 

“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”  Rev 11:7

Do you know who this beast is?  THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.  Rev 13:18

2 Thess 2:3,4 – “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

God's temple are the anointed ones, Christ’s priesthood – the “chosen ones” -  IF they stand up to the beast and “conquer” it with truth. THEN they will be sealed in the heavens.  Rev 9:4; 7:3,4

“And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name.”  Rev 13:15-17

Going back to the abyss, what does the false prophet release? Because it isn’t Christ who releases it.    Rev 9:1  “She” gives freedom to the Beast/locust army/Man of Lawlessness to destroy/”make war” with the remaining ones of the woman’s seed – the saints who are not yet sealed.  She uses deception, by poisoned living waters with lies.   Rev 9:4; 13:2,7;12:17  

There are not two separate identities released from the abyss -  One from Christ as the locust/army and one from Satan - the Beast.  No. They both describe one entity.  Just as Wormwood is described as also a false prophet and a Harlot.  

The saints are in the Watchtower, and JWs know this, where the GB has given AUTHORITY/POWER to the elder body to “kill”, disfellowship,  any called anointed priest who gives testimony of Christ. Rev 13:4; 11:1-3,7; 12:11 Thus, it is the “Gentile” elder body that “stands” in the Temple of God as the Man of Lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; Matt 24:15

The anointed priests ARE the “living” Temple of God  1 Pet 2:9,10; 2 Cor 6:16

And you, as well as the GB, believe Jesus is the Destroyer and has released this army/Beast to come against his own priesthood.    

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”  2 Thess 2:9,10

“Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed. When you have finished betraying, they will betray you.”  Isa 33:1

I’m not returning to this thread, SM, although I know you will do your best to unravel what I have said, and insist on saying Jesus Christ is the angel of the Abyss and King/Abaddon of the locust army/Beast.  Rev 9:11

Sad, indeed.

ăbaddôwn, ab-ad-done'; intensive from H6; abstract, a perishing; concrete, Hades:—destruction.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon – “place of destruction – abyss”

“Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”  Rev 20:14

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Back to the basics, with big letters for emphasis:

Ok.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Abbaddon in Hebrew:

Ps 88:11 - "Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ?"

Job 26:6 - "The realm of the dead is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered."

 Job 28:22 – "Destruction and Death say, “Only a rumor of it has reached our ears.”

Job 31:12 -  “It is a fire that burns to Destruction ; it would have uprooted my harvest.”

 Prov 15:11 - "Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!"

Know this, Abaddon appears 6 times in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, for Abaddon means destruction or "place of destruction", or the realm of the dead, and is accompanied by Sheol. You missed one in this response:

• Proverbs 27:20 - Hades (Sheol) and Destruction (Abaddon) are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

This is what you and the WT organization are implying by saying Jesus is Abaddon and angel/king of the abyss.  Rev 9:11  Death and Destruction.  Is this what you want? 

I am a Biblical Unitarian, and yes, it is what I believe because I take a serious consideration for context, hermenutics when it comes to the conclusion. It is known that Jehovah's Witnesses believe this, as do Methodist, as do several other Christian denominations, but to them they do not identify the angel in question to be Jesus, but Michael, not realizing that Jesus/Michael are one in the same.

Yes, Jesus is that one, the star, the one who has the key, the angel of the abyss for Revelation 9:1 points to the cross-references itself that refers to Christ Jesus, the one who is spoken of since Genesis that will defeat the serpent, the one who has been made King who will imprison the serpent, the one called Satan.

Jesus has this key, as with other keys, one of the keys of whom he gave, entrusted the disciples regarding the Kingdom, the other to death and Hades itself, and in regards to this one, the abyss, for the key in question was given to him and he is spoken as to having this key, and with it, he was able to seal Satan the Devil as the Bible states for 1,000 years, Satan will be released and eventually he will be destroyed - for good, along with the last of God's enemy mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:26.

Death and Destruction you say? Didn't you yourself cite the follow verse 2 Thess. 2:8 regarding the fact that Jesus doing God's will be bringing to nothing His enemies?

Revelation 9:11 says the following:

They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

Ironically enough, verse 11 cross-references Revelation 9:1-4 and 20:1-3, and we already know the verses in chapter 20, once again, points back to Revelation 22:16 - you cannot defeat the Bible, Witness, therefore being ignorant of the cross-references only shows that those, mainly you, of mainstream Christendom, do not apply context, nor apply the cross-references found in your own Bible itself, it is written, why not adhere to it? Clearly I do not ignore references or context.

You're asking me if I want death and destruction, all I can say is that death and destruction will only be met by those who are of lawlessness and wickedness, and Satan himself will share that same fate when Judgement has concluded and in the end, he will not be sealed away in an abyss, no, he will be destroyed, as 2 Thess. 1:9 points out

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

For the cross-reference of this verse, 2 Peter 3:7, even tells you that judgement will come and a great destruction will be unleashed on to those who are ungodly - the wicked.

So the question that you didn't answer before, what will Jesus do when he returns a second time, his presence?

It is obvious and simply, God's Justice will be enacted through his Son (just as his grace in regards to Jesus' sacrifice, as with his purpose and will in terms of Jesus' ministry, etc.) the same will be done on God's Day, for Jesus does the Will of his Father, not of his own, and if the Father's Will consist of the Wicked to be destructed, it will happen, for God's Spoken Word is final, those of mankind who water down God's Spoken Word are kidding themselves in not knowing that God has not changed, he is the same God today as he was in the days of ancient Israel.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Jesus has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss because he has conquered DEATH.  Satan has a key – AUTHORITY, POWER – to the abyss, who brings DEATH upon us all unless we turn to Christ.

Jesus has the key to the Abyss, Revelation 9:1-4 and Revelation 20:1-4 (1-7), this being the last and only record occurrence of "key" in the New Testament. The key that had been given to him, the key it is spoken of as him having, he used such to free those out of captivity, providing deliverance, with that same key he was able to open the abyss and put Satan there, sealing him there.

Jesus has the keys to the Kingdom and had entrusted Peter, in turn the disciples with said keys, Matthew 16:19, which results in the Church Structure, the Church teachings, and application of said teachings and disciplinary actions of the Church.

• "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus has the keys to Hades, as Revelation 1:18 states, in addition, during the 1,000 year reign, Jesus will use these keys to free those from the pangs of death for with this key, Jesus conquered death and by means of this key, those asleep in death, the righteous and worthy ones who will receive the resurrection. We also know that Jesus did not have to confront Satan for the keys because the keys were never in Satan's possession to begin with, nor were the other keys.

• and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan has a key of any kind, this is an example of you adding to God's Word, granted with all occurrences for "key(s)" not ONE occurrence says that Satan has any key or keys to anything. Satan is spoken of to be the ruler of this world, an adversary of God, the one who influences, the one who opposes, the one who slanders and deceives the one who is against the Christ, even as going as far as to tempting the Christ himself and tried to get him to religious worship him as well as to commit suicide off of a battlement, and so forth, so we know Satan has control on those associated with the wild beast and the false prophets, but nowhere do we see, not even a single verse, that Satan has been given a key or is spoken of as to having a key, even symbolically.

Do not add to God's Word, Witness (Deuteronomy 4:2, John 10:34-35)

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Heb 2:14 - Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through his death he might destroy the one holding the power of death -- that is, the devil.

And? Hebrews 2:14 conveys that Satan the Devil even has the means to cause death. It does not autmatcially means he can literal kill people, however, his spirit that commits to murderous intent is in the very world that he is the ruler of.

because of him, Satan, who had deceive our first mother, Eve and she believed him, resulting in Adam to also have a share in disobedience in God's face, both sin and death spread to all mankind as can be read in Romans 5:12 which reads:

• Death in Adam, Life in Christ - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned—

Footnotes: Romans 5:12 The Greek word anthropoi refers here to both men and women; also twice in verse 18

In context, Satan the Devil has had the means to cause death, the very reason why Jesus refers to the Devil as a murderer in John 8:44.

Also all cross-references for Hebrews 2:14 (Genesis 3:15, Luke 10:18, John 8:44, 1 John 3:8, Revelation 12:9 and John 1:14).

4 hours ago, Witness said:

 Satan gave WORMWOOD, the falling star, a “KEY” – AUTHORITY, POWER – to poison the waters of truth with lies. Rev 8:11; 9:1

Satan never had a key to give, only the angel of the abyss was given a key and is spoken of as having the key to use to chain and seal the dragon.

Once again you are equally both Revelation 9:1 and 8:11 to be the same when they are clearly not the same stars.

You have one who is identified as the angel of the abyss and the other identified as wormwood - both are not the same. You know how silly that would said if we went by that logic to say that wormwood or Satan chained and hurled Satan into the abyss, it makes no sense.

Moreover, again, the cross-references from the Bible itself further proves, even provides evidence of the star in Revelation 9:1 is not the same star in Revelation 8:11, nor, as some are led to believe, the angels being the same, but they are not.

Plus you even agreed with me earlier when you stated the Jesus bounded Satan and put him in prison, indeed, the very same place where he is to be sealed away when those in captivity are freed - the abyss.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

If Jesus Christ was the angel of the abyss, why would it enter his mind to allow the Beast of Revelation 13:1 to “make war” with his priests? Rev 13:7  If one is King of a nation or realm, he rules over it.  You are saying that Jesus used his authority/key to the abyss to release the Beast of Rev 13:1 This is what you and Watchtower are suggesting by saying Jesus fell from heaven to release the locust army, which is the BEAST of Rev 13:1 and 11:7. 

Jesus is the angel of the abyss and no references regarding Revelation 9:1 points to Revelation 13:1, to which I explained to you earlier when speaking about the land beast. Jesus intent as being the angel of the abyss is to unleashed judgement on to God's adversary, Satan, thus sealing him away. After the 1,000 years, Satan will be released and obvious will be around to cause some trouble, only this time the second defeat of Satan (it can be counted as a 3rd for his other confrontation was a ware in heaven) will be his end.

Can you point out anywhere that I said Jesus will use the key to release the wild beast form the abyss? This I want to see hence your response: You are saying that Jesus used his authority/key to the abyss to release the Beast of Rev 13:1 This is what you and Watchtower are suggesting by saying Jesus fell from heaven to release the locust army, which is the BEAST of Rev 13:1 and 11:7. 

Me and the Watchtower? Clearly you have not been studying anyone else Christology but the Jehovah's Witnesses alone when this belief didn't originate with them whatsoever, which also proves the sheer ignorance of Theological studies on your part. Us Biblical Unitarian Christians are aware of what the angel of the abyss is and who it is who has the key and who is thrown into the abyss and so forth, this belief is profess by both sides of Christendom with only one side believing the angel in question to be Satan, that would be you and the Trinitarians, the other who believe the angel to be an Anti-Christ, while the others who do not identify Micheal as Jesus for the angel to be Micheal, however among this, the only true one is that Jesus is the angel who is to conquer over Satan.

Biblical evidence and references from the Bible itself and the cross-references from the Bible itself, even in physical copies furthers the evidence in the truth itself.

What you also fail to realize is that when Jesus dealt with the abyss, there was a specific order, of which I made mention of in my other response. the “star,” the “key,” the “pit,” the “smoke,” and the locusts regarding the symbolism of this 5th trumpet, how did you miss that?

The star is regarding the angel of the abyss. This same Angel has the key which is access to the abyss otherwise known as the bottomless pit. The pit in question has the locust being released from it, those who were in captivity, the same ones who will torment the unsealed, those who are of false Christendom, the great dragon will then be sealed there for 1,000 years and later released.

Why not those in Christendom who also believe the same thing? Jesus came out of heaven to the earth, in some translation is does say fall or descended, and I even exposed on you were mixing the occurrences in my last response to which I pointed out and I quote:

Quote

Your response:

The word here for “fall” is an entirely different Greek word. It, too, means to “descend”but…

to descend from a higher place to a lower

A.                 to fall (either from or upon)

i.to be thrust down

B.                 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

I.to descend from an erect to a prostrate position

 .                    to fall down

 .to be prostrated, fall prostrate

My Response:

You do realize if you scroll down on Blue letter it tells you what is in use, therefore, the fact that you miss this further proves my point.

Let's take the information from blue letter so it can be shown as how you made this error on your own accord.

You put in bold the following for  

• which on Blue letter it points to the occurrences and it reads: . metaphorically: οὐ πίπτει ἐπί τινα ὁ ἥλιος, i. e. the heat of the sun does not strike upon them or incommode them, Revelation 7:16; (ἀχλύς καί σκότος, Acts 13:11 L T Tr WH); ὁ κλῆρος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, the lot falls upon one, Acts 1:20; φόβος πίπτει ἐπί τινα, falls upon or seizes one (Acts 19:17 L Tr); Revelation 11:11 Rec.; (τό πνεῦμα τό ἅγιον, Acts 10:44 Lachmann); πίπτω ὑπό κρίσιν, to fall under judgment, come under condemnation, James 5:12 (where Rec.st εἰς ὑπόκρισιν).

As we can see, we do not see Revelation 9:1 anywhere in hence the fact you put in bold  to justify something is both an error and is unfounded.

• Now let's go to [A] whereas we see on Blue Letter it states the following: [A]. properly, to fall (either from or upon, equivalent to Latin incido, decido): ἐπί with the accusative of place, Matthew 10:29; Matthew 13:5,(Matthew 13:7),Matthew 13:8; Matthew 21:44 (T omits; L WH Tr marginal reading brackets the verse); Mark 4:5; Luke 8:6 (here T Tr WH κατέπεσεν), 8 Rec.; Revelation 8:10; εἰς τί (of the thing that is entered; into), Matthew 15:14; Matthew 17:15; Mark 4:7 (L marginal reading ἐπί); Luke 6:39, R G L marginal reading (but L text T Tr WH ἐμπεσοῦνται); Luke 8:8 G L T Tr WH (Luke 8:14; Luke 14:5 L T Tr WH); John 12:24; εἰς (upon) τήν γῆν, Revelation 6:13; Revelation 9:1; ἐν μέσῳ, with the genitive of the thing, Luke 8:7; παρά τήν ὁδόν, Matthew 13:4; Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5; to fall from or down: followed by ἀπό with the genitive of place, Matthew 15:27; Matthew 24:29 (here Tdf. ἐκ; Luke 16:21); Acts 20:9; followed by ἐκ with the genitive of place (Mark 13:25 L T Tr WH); Revelation 8:10; Revelation 9:1; equivalent to to be thrust down, Luke 10:18.

As we can see, the metaphorical occurrence for this word does not apply to Revelation 9:1 - at all. Perhaps you can fool someone who is a novice in Biblical Hermeneutics regarding Hebrew and Greek Strong's, but clearly you are dealing with someone who takes hermeneutics seriously - even that of the Strong's itself.

So I ask you this, why are you trying to justify metaphorical on to Revelation 9:1? The fact that you did that further proves my point of how some folks need to learn the elementary basics in Strong's, in this regard, that website alone conspired against you in this case.

Here is the link and I suggest you learn about these occurrences (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4098&t=ESV) instead of mixing them up, you can mix Bible verses and be called for it, but when you mix Strong's, it is a Hermeneutical violation.

That being said this was a dead giveaway: metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation as with the equivalents.

Here we see you trying to throw into the verse a metaphorical occurrence of the Strong's when Revelation 9:1 makes no mention of any metaphorical fall or descending and I will repost it here so you can see it clearly and for others to see as well as to what I am pointing out and the violation of Strong's on your part.

And no, the Wild Beast that ascends out of the abyss or the earth is not of Jesus's design nor would such cross his mind and if you were aware, the wild beast in question is already in effect, for I will even quote myself:

the second beast that rises out of the earth. This land beast has 2 horns like a lamb and it speaks like a dragon. It claims to be a Christian but it is not. It collects and colonizes nations and exploits and it is present along with the first beast. 

In addition, this one rose out of the abyss. Both of these wild beasts in the end. the image of the beast and influence the rulers of the earth will eventually gather for God's Day, the battle of Armageddon. The two beasts will also defeated by Christ and hurled into Gehenna, the Lake of Fire as mentioned in Revelation 19:18-20. The Wild Beast, otherwise refereed to as a Land Beast is of Satan’s design, which is regarding end times, Satan himself has not been imprisoned yet, he will be during the 1,000 year reign. (Revelation 13:1; Daniel 7:2, 3, 17) This beast pretty much directs people to follow the first beast.

Again, the ones that represent the Locust do not side with Satan, only the false prophets and the wild beasts. For if the army of Locust was indeed on Satan's side, they'd be tormenting God's people instead of false Christendom, and that would factor in no mention of the gospel whatsoever. The Locust represent those in captivity. Notice how it says nothing of those who symbolize the locust to harm or confront anyone with the seal of God on them, granted the Seal of God means  to group of people who have the seal of God, and thus His protection, during the tribulation.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you know who this beast is?  THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.  Rev 13:18

That is pretty much what I pointed in to my other response. and these same men of lawlessness will indeed be destroyed by the sword of the Christ, by means of God's Justice and like Satan, such ones will be me with eternal destruction.

Other than that, like I said, this beast claims to be Christian when it is not, and it directs people to worship the first beast, unifying the people in order to do so, an example of this is what took place just days ago in Texas.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

2 Thess 2:3,4 – “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

Yes - and such ones will be destroyed, you will seek them out, but they will be gone, for they will be gone just like the things in today's day and age, and onward God's promise will soon be accomplished.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

God's temple are the anointed ones, Christ’s priesthood – the “chosen ones” -  IF they stand up to the beast and “conquer” it with truth. THEN they will be sealed in the heavens.  Rev 9:4; 7:3,4

God's temple also consist of the people, as mentioned in our last discussion and of whom it consist of, and it can be understood by the heirs mentioned by Apostle Paul in Galatians.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name.”  Rev 13:15-17

And? I believe I pointed this out in my other response also, perhaps it would be wise to explain than quote.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Going back to the abyss, what does the false prophet release? Because it isn’t Christ who releases it.    Rev 9:1  “She” gives freedom to the Beast/locust army/Man of Lawlessness to destroy/”make war” with the remaining ones of the woman’s seed – the saints who are not yet sealed.  She uses deception, by poisoned living waters with lies.   Rev 9:4; 13:2,7;12:17  

The Angel of the Abyss is the Christ, in Revelation 9:1 points to 20:1-4 and 22:16, which in turn refer to the Christ, why are you denying the same cross-references found in most Bible translations? The small letters and footnotes are there for a reason another example here of you remaining ignorant to the fact that cross-references is suppose to be considered, cross-references are vital. If you can point out what wormwood is, why avoid the very fact that Revelation 9:1 is a direct references to the bright morning star mentioned in 22:16?

You are picking cherries here, my friend. The Bible pretty much defeats you in this resolve you are professing.

You speak of deception, yet you were the one to identified the destroyer in Exodus 12:23 as Satan when the Bible tells you it is an Angel from God. So I ask you, who is really drinking from the poisoned waters, in this sense? With cross-references, one can see this for themselves, but here and like this one, you are missing context and references purposely to justify something of which you cannot prove when the evidence stacks up against you in this regard.

That being said, Revelation 9:4 points to Revelation 7:2, 3. I do not see why you are now trying to mix verses and compare 9:4 to Revelation 13:2,7;12:17.

Here is what 2 and 3 says:

[2] Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, [3] saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So according to you and the obvious mixing of verses, Angels out of heaven on to the earth are beasts now? For you did say this before mentioning those verses: She uses deception, by poisoned living waters with lies.

Now, Revelation 13 as a whole is regarding the Two Witnesses.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

There are not two separate identities released from the abyss -  One from Christ as the locust/army and one from Satan - the Beast.  No. They both describe one entity.  Just as Wormwood is described as also a false prophet and a Harlot. 

One entity? The locust cannot kill, the beast can kill, the locust are to torment false Christendom, the beast are to deceive, the locust were in captivity, the beast was of Satan's design.

They are not of one entity or this oneness claim you are professing.

Jesus had the key and when the abyss was opened, those who represent the locust had been delivered, Satan is tossed into and sealed away for 1,000 years after that. And you are again trying to equal the stars when you could not even prove where in the Greek text Satan was given a key, and you later contradicted yourself to even saying, shifting your belief that Jesus did in fact bound Satan and imprisoned him, where? The Abyss.

Do not confuse the two when the context is enough evidence to refute your claim.

As for the last bit about wormwood, this is something you have gotten correct thus far, however the false ones are of the Harlot, and the Harlot herself is an enemy of God's people, and like Satan, will do everything to stop them, for she would not avoid those for God, and she will persecute and kill them whereas those who are the army and or swarm, they will continue to profess the truth forward, which irritates those of Babylon, in this sense, torments them.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The saints are in the Watchtower, and JWs know this, where the GB has given AUTHORITY/POWER to the elder body to “kill”, disfellowship,  any called anointed priest who gives testimony of Christ. Rev 13:4; 11:1-3,7; 12:11 Thus, it is the “Gentile” elder body that “stands” in the Temple of God as the Man of Lawlessness.  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; Matt 24:15

Read Matthew chapter 16 regarding what our Lord, Christ Jesus entrusted the Church, for you have to recognize why Church Expelling exists, excommunication, shunning and or church ties being cut, and read further as to how and when Paul put such into application, as did others, even the students of the apostles. There is a read as it can be said Jesus gave the church abilities to bind and loosen. You speak of 8 mere men alone when you do not take into account of your own who is against God's Order and does not adhere to anything of the apostolic age. Other than that is is unheard of of any Restorationist Christian, be it a organized group or a sole male or female follower to adhere to lawlessness. You have to have valid proof of this when people are aware of the Christology of the common Restorationist or Restorationism as a whole, examples like God's order, per our last conversation whereas the view of Restorationist as with True Christians know regarding Creation, the one you follow, on the other hand, considers a holy man speaks in opinions and not of God's Word.

That being said, Christians are under the New Covenant, of Spiritual Israel, to not recognize of what that even means, and as to what that signifies, only shows that you have a lot more studying to do instead of struggling to justify something of which you cannot prove and the constant mixing of verses and avoiding of hermeneutics and context is obvious.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

The anointed priests ARE the “living” Temple of God  1 Pet 2:9,10; 2 Cor 6:16

If this was the case, you'd be adhering to them 100% as with those before them, but you do not. Chosen ones take the bible into FULL consideration, even the cross-references, but here we see that when cross-references are in use, you avoid the evidence professed.

Chosen ones are also aware the situation with Hezekiah and Assyria, as with the Angel that had slain the firstborns in Egypt in Moses' Day in order for Pharaoh to release God's people who were in captivity.

That being said, the Chosen ones, as with those who make up the church are of God's Temple, and they are God's people, all of them of Spiritual Israel.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

And you, as well as the GB, believe Jesus is the Destroyer and has released this army/Beast to come against his own priesthood.  

As I have said for the last several times. the locust and the beast are two different things. One kills, the other does not. One was in captivity, the other was of Satan's design, one gives the truth, the other gives falsehood.

Can you show me anywhere that I believe that the locust and the beast will target God's people? Because last time I checked, I mentioned time and time again with biblical proof, mind you, that the locust will be those who are against false Christendom. You on the other hand, tried trickery by mixing verses that do not even cross-references to each other i.e. you speaking of God talking about his Son, Jesus when the verse you cited only shows Jesus speaking, not God.

You even proved it for me when you cited 2 Thess 2:8.

God is going to destroy the wicked and the one he has anointed as a King will be doing just that. The wicked will be no more, and nowhere have I stated that the locust was going to destroy God's people.

As it is evident know, you are stumbling on your own words and do not pay any mind to evidence made against you in refutation.

That being said, I believe that you need to study Christendom a bit more if you think only Watchtower believe this also, you've proven yourself to have a one tracked mind, in this sense.

I have proven who has the key, you only attempted to add to the text who has the key, Witness.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”  2 Thess 2:9,10

Why skip verse 8? Remember, you were the one who cited this in an attempt to mix verses.

Ill quote it for you

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

As per my last question - what do you think the Christ, who is of Kingship and who sits on the throne of David will do to the wicked?

The answer is quite obvious. The good will prosper, but the bad will perish.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“Woe, you destroyer never destroyed, you traitor never betrayed! When you have finished destroying, you will be destroyed. When you have finished betraying, they will betray you.”  Isa 33:1

You said this already on the last page and I will even quoted you

On 10/21/2018 at 12:57 PM, Witness said:

“Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed.”  Isa 33:1

My response to you:

Quote

"Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed." Isa 33:1

Isaiah 33:1 [part A] points to 2 Kings 18:13 and Isaiah 10:15 while [part B] points to Isaiah 10:12 and Nahum 3:7.

Isaiah 33:1-14 is titled in outline Distress and Help (all the way through to verse 24). as The proud and false destroyer justly reckoned with for all his fraud, violence and bloodshed, but we have our righteous God deals with such ones who do such things. Those who by faith humbly wait for God, shall find him or herself gracious to them; as the day, so let the strength be.

Prophet Isaiah addressed who the "Destroyer" in this passage/verse. For he speaks here about Assyria. At the peak of its power, this aggressive nation appears to be undefeated, for they are very violent and commit acts of bloodshed has already been addressed, hence they are the Destroyer that destroys, in this sense, for we know what Assyria is capable of, mainly in those days. This nation was the one responsible for ravaging the cities of Judah, even stripping the house of God of everything, down to wealth and resources, by doing so with a total disregard at heart, hence what is read in 2 Kings 18:14-16 and 2 Chronicles 28:21, we can throw in Isaiah 10:5 for fun here too - "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord [Yahweh/Jehovah]." (Genesis 10:9). However, they were not the "Destroyer" for long, for that same passage of which you quoted tells you they will be destroyed – a fulfilling of prophecy is to those faithful, as declared by Prophet Isaiah.

Are there two Destroyers, Satan and Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:7-10, this passage is about Apostle Paul’s focus on those of Israel who succumb to murmuring and putting God to the test, and the "Destroyer" here is regarding God’s messenger sent to destroy – that is, if you take into account the context of the references.

Isaiah 33:1 or chapter 33 in general is regarding the "Destroyer" (The Assyrian/Assyria). Who in turn is eventually destroyed by another, an Angel (Angel of Death also known as a Destroyer).

Are WT’s spiritual leaders so illiterate that they cannot see WHO the Destroyer really is?

Technically they are aware of who is a Destroyer, especially in the verses above granted by what they in their information, which is on par with the view of the teachings in this sense, regarding the Destroyer.

Jesus came to save, not destroy. Don’t you think it is quite contradictory to believe Jesus...

What do you think he is going to do with the demons and the wicked? After all when he had risen his words to the spirits in prison was indeed one that sticks (1 Peter 3:19–20, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6).

And it should be known to you by now that Jesus does the Will of his Father, who is God. So if God says he is going to destroy the wicked and those of lawlessness, Jesus will enact the Will of his Father in this regard, for he didn't come the first time to do his own Will, but the Will of the one who sent him (John 5:30, 35, 36, 14:10).

So if God sends Jesus to destroy the wicked, Jesus will do just that because he is God's representative, the one of whom God made Lord and Christ, the one of whom God made superior to the angels, the one of whom God made chief of his angelic army.

If you stumble, people will see it.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I’m not returning to this thread, SM, although I know you will do your best to unravel what I have said, and insist on saying Jesus Christ is the angel of the Abyss and King/Abaddon of the locust army/Beast.  Rev 9:11

That is because he is, if the Bible cross-references point to it, then it is biblical true and anything from the Bible I profess and I consider both context and hermeneutics as key to the conclusion of a verse and or passage, unlike you, I do not mix verses around to justify something.

After all, you said that Satan was the angel of the Abyss and later on stated that Jesus bounded him and imprisoned him, you are shifting believes when you do not even realize it, which is evident to you committing a violation of Strong's confusing blindness with smoke or trying to use the metaphorical version of "fall" when even blue letter does not even state that.

I will tell you again, as with all discussions with you, READ YOUR BIBLE and read into the cross-references instead of adding to God's Word.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Sad, indeed.

It isn't sad because I only speak the truth, and nothing but that, even if it means being strict about it, in the same sense Prophet Isaiah was with the leaders of Judah, constantly repeating the same thing and being strict with them also.

If you want sadness, I can point to this, you assuming, even claiming that God somehow allowed Satan to do his bidding, when no such thing is mentioned in the verse, yet here we see you pointing to that

On 10/27/2018 at 10:40 AM, Witness said:

Your view is physical, not spiritual.  Whatever damage is done to humans who are judged by Christ as not worthy of the Kingdom, is at the hand of the Destroyer, Satan. God removes His protection, and Satan steps in. Exod 12:23 

To which I didn't refute, I confuted an stated:

Quote

No, my view is always spiritual, never have I applied man's understanding when I have been against it for years, as with my disdain for the mainstream Christendom and it's accursed teachings, the watering down of God's Word, if you will.

How did Satan step in at Exodus 12:13 when it was God who sent an Angel (clearly not Satan) do exact judgement? Be very careful of the bitter water, Witness.

The verse even tells you

For the Lord [YHWH] will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord [YHWH] will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.

The Destroyer here was an Angel, in some translations, it will say the Angel of Death.

For example the GNT will say: When the LORD goes through Egypt to kill the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the beams and the doorposts and will not let the Angel of Death enter your houses and kill you.

God would never, or would it ever cross his mind to send or allow Satan to do such an action, nowhere in the Bible was Satan the Devil under Shaliach Principle, for he is God's Adversary, let alone any of the spirit beings who follow him because they have been banish from being in the presence of God (Matthew 8:28, 29; Luke 4:33, 34, James 2:19).

The same Angel of Death is later found in Scripture to save a follower of God from the Assyrians, as stated before.

If you think it was Satan that was this angel in Exodus 12:23, it is clear as to what kind of understanding you adhere to.

That being said, I suggest you re-read the passage of God choosing Moses to get his people out of the captivity of the Egyptians.

The truth always prevails, but you allowing your emotion and feelings go into the text in an attempt to water down Jesus' kingship is troubling.

I suggest, I encourage you to read the Scriptures thoroughly, re-learn about Moses if you think Satan had a hand in the plagues, study it.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

ăbaddôwn, ab-ad-done'; intensive from H6; abstract, a perishing; concrete, Hades:—destruction.

You may want to re-check Blue Letter again and check out the 6 occurrences of Abaddon in the Hebrew Text - I do not see Hades mention anywhere from the link you have, which is this one: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6

What you are looking for is this: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h11

And perhaps this time, not only look at the Strong's but take a look at the occurrences if it is normal, metaphorical, special, unique, etc.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon – “place of destruction – abyss”

Perhaps it would be wise to tell me something I do not know because last time the Lexicon was used, you didn't agree with it, in terms of Interlinear Translations, but here we now see that you are using it, learning even.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

“Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”  Rev 20:14

And guess what is cross-references for Hades? 1 Corinthians 15:26 and 2 Thess 1:9.

Take all things into consideration - even cross-references found in the very Bible itself, therefore go about Spiritual Understanding an not Man's Understanding, or how you put it, Physical Understanding.

Your Christ will be coming to destroy the wicked and save his people, know that, for the bible speaks of such.

For the God of your King will do this by means of the Christ, and regarding the wicked, he speaks, and even his own who dwelled on the earth speaks this:

He will bring back on them their iniquity and wipe them out for their wickedness; the LORD [YHWH] our God will wipe them out.

You shall seek those who contend with you, but you shall not find them; those who war against you shall be as nothing at all.

In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

[Equivocation]

@Space Merchant It is also said even the demons will be hurled into the abyss also. I don't remember the passage on the top of my head.

It wouldn't make sense for them to come out of imprisonment either, and the fact the locust are those who are against false religon. 

Someone briefly talked about this today.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I am O.K. with whatever happens except if when the gates of the Abyss are opened, out pops Jimminy Cricket, and Caleb and Sophia.

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Space Merchant It is also said even the demons will be hurled into the abyss also. I don't remember the passage on the top of my head.

It wouldn't make sense for them to come out of imprisonment either, and the fact the locust are those who are against false religon. 

Someone briefly talked about this today.

Look at Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20 and Luke 8:26-39 regarding demons being expelled into swines aka pigs, the unclean animal.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am O.K. with whatever happens except if when the gates of the Abyss are opened, out pops Jimminy Cricket, and Caleb and Sophia.

If they are among the chosen ones. Now I imagine a Cricket going after the Pope of the Vatican regarding Bible truth, non-stop.