Gods, human, inspired text, interpretations, love and hate

[Josué2]

Mais je suis bien d'accord avec vous sur ce point.

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Josué2 said:

qui parle de ce réjouir dans cette citation  ?

It is a phrase and or idiom that is used regarding a defeated person, enemy, or foe/opponent.

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Case 1)

Happy will be the one who rewards you With the treatment you inflicted on us.

Happy will be the one who seizes your children And dashes them against the rocks.

Case 2)

Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
 when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,

Case 3)

If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head,
And the Lord will reward you.

This has been pretty much answered. Also the other verses in question points to Proverbs 25:21-23 and Psalms 137:9.

Now I see that you bring up Psalms 137:9 (which also points to Isaiah 13:1, 16), I have seen this verse brought up countless times by those who want to attack the Bible as well as those who do not understand this verse's context. Now, in context, it is regarding God having used the Cyrus, a Persian ruler, to liberate his people from Babylon, for the people were held in captivity. The final verse was not in regards to Cyrus, but rather, to Babylon the Great, the world power at that time - the old harlot, Babylon, the wild beast and the fact that it foretells the avenging of God's people - who today are identified as True Christians.

Athirst tend to use this verse as a "Gotcha Question", but any man or woman who knows the context can answer this flawlessly. This also goes hand in hand with the prophet and sex slaves questions they tend to bring up, or another regarding Mary's age.

The other verse, Proverbs 25:21-23, speaks for itself and it isn't too far from the original verse you professed.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please, now do make context of this inspired verses.

There inspired because they are found in the original manuscript sources.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Context doesn't mean only few verses in one and same passage, chapter or same book. But context in/of all 66 books.

There is context in a verse and or passages, even in parables in all books of the Bible.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And even more, not just context of The Book, but context of life, time, space, love, hate ..... Context of purpose and final result.

Life, time, space, love, hate? You still on the Bible or somewhere else?

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am not to try support this or that conclusion, but point to/out, indicate on some problematic that can arise.

But you are now between a rock and a hard place.

You have the accepting of context of a verse and or passage and the latter, accepting the verse or passage word for word without taking in any sort of understanding.

Also it would also be the best thing to look at all translations for those specific verses you are pointing to.

[Josué2]

Il n'est pas dit de ce réjouir contre un ennemi ou adversaire. au contraire le verset de Paul cité plus haut est des plus explicite.

(Romains 12:18-21) [...] . 19 Mes bien-aimés, ne vous vengez pas vous-mêmes, mais laissez agir la colère de Dieu ; car il est écrit : « “La vengeance est à moi ; c’est moi qui paierai de retour”, dit Jéhovah. » 20 Au contraire, « si ton ennemi a faim, donne-lui à manger ; s’il a soif, donne-lui à boire ; car en faisant cela, tu amasseras des braises sur sa tête ». 21 Ne te laisse pas vaincre par le mal, mais continue à vaincre le mal par le bien.
 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

But you are now between a rock and a hard place.

and that is good.... or i will be broken or hard place will be destroyed :)))) 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Il n'est pas dit de ce réjouir contre un ennemi ou adversaire. au contraire le verset de Paul cité plus haut est des plus explicite.

(Romains 12:18-21) [...] . 19 Mes bien-aimés, ne vous vengez pas vous-mêmes, mais laissez agir la colère de Dieu ; car il est écrit : « “La vengeance est à moi ; c’est moi qui paierai de retour”, dit Jéhovah. » 20 Au contraire, « si ton ennemi a faim, donne-lui à manger ; s’il a soif, donne-lui à boire ; car en faisant cela, tu amasseras des braises sur sa tête ». 21 Ne te laisse pas vaincre par le mal, mais continue à vaincre le mal par le bien.
 

Nice! But have in mind that old patriarchs and Israel leaders have (they had) different view sometimes. And seems how JHVH "blessed" (or approved or not have specific view, let them done what they want to do) about many of violent acts in battles against all sort of "enemies" that was not been "loved" by Israel people.

Well, seems how so called Context about love and hate, about commands, about scriptures, about scriptures in time line,  about enemy in this conversation, was/had different, opposite interpretations and attitudes, standpoints, doctrines through time and space.   

Old Israel people had some "Commands" (not as God's commands but as man's (Israel religious or political leaders) commands, that was teaching them differently than The Law or Jesus later.  

 

[Space Merchant]

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and that is good.... or i will be broken or hard place will be destroyed :)))) 

It isn't good because it puts you in a difficult situation. It is like being stressed out, confused and panicky of wanting to go left, or wanting to go right, wanting to eat an apple or an orange, etc. to the point you cannot decide.

In the realm of Scrpture and Hermeneutics, you are between choosing context or not choosing context whereas if context is applied, you better understand the verse, but if no context is applied, you read a verse as is and not realize what the verse is telling you.

For example, we have these 2 verses:

• John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.
• John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

No Context regarding these verses: At just the surface information, someone will be 100% convinced that Jesus is God because of what Thomas had said and what Jesus had said, they also ignore the cross-references and 99% of the chapter itself.

With Context regarding these verses: We know that Thomas didn't see Jesus as God because he was present with Jesus when Martha, the sister of Lazarus and Mary spoke to him. Thomas was also not there when Jesus, who had recently been resurrected, met with the other disciples and was in doubt, only when he finally saw Jesus he believed and Jesus pretty much tells Thomas everything on the final verse that he is God's Son - hence the verse or passage is about seeing and believing, etc. While John 10:30, the disciples are also one as read in John 17:20-26, the people, John 10:16, and a list of other verses regarding people in union with Christ and having God dwell in them as God dwells in the Christ (all this is even more information filled with cross-references).

As you can see context matters when it comes to a verse and or passage.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Nice! But have in mind that old patriarchs and Israel leaders have (they had) different view sometimes. And seems how JHVH "blessed" (or approved or not have specific view, let them done what they want to do) about many of violent acts in battles against all sort of "enemies" that was not been "loved" by Israel people.

@Josué2 is speaking about having not to rejoice against an enemy. God's people have not changed or had different views, for they followed all the commands of God and did as God had told them to, even in the face of those who are enemies of God. Never have we see in the Bible God's people boasting about killing an enemy and or ravaging the corpses of their enemy, which a thing we can see from those who are enemies of God's people, for example, The Philistines, Goliath, or that of the 2 Midianite kings, Zebah and Zalmunna, such ones taunt not just his people, but God also, they even make a mockery of fallen ones in battle such as Saul and his Son, as you can read in the Bible what happen to their corpses.

Yes it was over the top brutal back in those days, but God's people would never rejoice over a brutal defeat of their enemy, if anything they will sing to God and give praise to God for delivering them out of the hands of their enemies - for there is always a reason, a cause and effect in such things, and we can see that in the Bible.

This also goes hand in hand with the verses that you are focused on, when context is understood, it does not look complex.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, seems how so called Context about love and hate, about commands, about scriptures, about scriptures in time line,  about enemy in this conversation, was/had different, opposite interpretations and attitudes, standpoints, doctrines through time and space.   

But the context is there, the question is, do you see it? It should also be noted there is always a reason of action in the days of old, just so we are clear.

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Old Israel people had some "Commands" (not as God's commands but as man's (Israel religious or political leaders) commands, that was teaching them differently than The Law or Jesus later.  

How are you so sure when their laws and commandments come directly from the scriptures? The foremost command Jesus spoke of hangs has those laws, in turn, Bible principles, hanging on to them, therefore, such laws are not of man's, but of God's if it persist through Jesus' day to now.

Can you be specific on this "Law of Man" of which you speak of, Srecko? Also it would also help if you can identify one political leader as you claim, we know of religious leaders and judges, but it would be helpful if you point out the specifics in terms of those who has a political stance, as you claim mixed in with law of men.

 

[Josué2]

Il y a 20 heures, Srecko Sostar a dit :

Agréable! Mais avoir à l'esprit que les anciens patriarches et les dirigeants d'Israël ont (ils avaient) point de vue différent parfois. Et semble comment YHWH « béni » (ou approuvé ou pas vue spécifique, laissez-les faire ce qu'ils veulent faire) sur un grand nombre d'actes de violence dans des combats contre toutes sortes de « ennemis » qui n'a pas été été « aimé » par les gens d'Israël.

Eh bien, semble comment ce qu'on appelle contexte de l'amour et la haine, sur les commandes, sur les écritures, sur les écritures en ligne de temps, à propos de l'ennemi dans cette conversation, a / avait différentes interprétations opposées et les attitudes, les points de vue, des doctrines à travers le temps et l'espace.   

Ancien peuple d'Israël avaient des « commandes » (pas les commandements de Dieu, mais comme les commandements de l'homme (Israël chefs religieux ou politiques), qui enseignait différemment que la loi ou Jésus plus tard.  

Les ancien patriarches n'avait pas un esprit haine.Ils me fait prouver le contraire bible à l'appui.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Can you be specific on this "Law of Man" of which you speak of, Srecko?

 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ - source; Jesus.

This is words in sermon Jesus gave to Jew people who came to hear. So, it is clear, to me,  that Jew leaders (who ever they have been, religious or administrative (read political, hahaha) or something in a middle of both side, or some political/religious fractions among Jew nation) are those who was said something , about what Jesus has refer and used in his lesson and warning.

For example in Jesus time there are: The Pharisees, The Sadducees,  The Galileans,  The Sanhedrin, The Scribes.

Before, in "golden time" of Kings, there are/was exist opposition also.  Read the Bible for information's.    

 

Sort of resume:

People before and now (past/present) , Jew's or Christian's or JW's or some other's believers in holy Bible can follow "The Word" or "The Law" which source can be from God, from god's, from human. Also, "word" and "law" can be amalgam, mixture of all parties mentioned in sentence before - we have the same "problem" of old new or new old, it depends of who stand before issue (one proverb say, old joke-new fool).  

That is conclusion i can read from Jesus quote in Matthew. “You have heard that it was said,.."

Who have heard? --- believers, followers, people from nations, JW members .....?

and most important, "WHO was said?!" ---- Rabin's, Pope, priests, elders, GB of WTJWorg ......?  

 

At the end of a day no one can be absolutely sure what is, what was The PURE Word or The PURE Law of JHVH and what is/are NOT. :)) 

  

[Srecko Sostar]

The Essenes, The Zealots, The 'Am Ha-aretz, ...

 

[Srecko Sostar]

The Samaritans, the Sicarii, The Herodians ...

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ - source; Jesus.

Before I start, you do realize the passage as a whole... right?

How everything is align goes as followed:

• The Sermon on the Mount (1)
• The Beatitudes (2-11)
• Salt and Light (13-16)
• Christ Came to Fulfill the Law (16)
• Anger (21-26)
• Lust (27-30)
• Divorce (31-32)
• Oaths (33-37)
• Retaliation (38-42)
• Love your Enemies (43-48)

Your focus is on verse 43, but the passage as a whole says the following:

[43] “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ [44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [47] And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [48] You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So note, Jesus said You have heard that it was said, and he states the following, moreover, nothing in the Mosaic Law says anything about hating your enemy, the very reason Jesus made the point clear in the next verse.

How do we know? Very simple, let's go for context.

When it is spoken of, when one must love your neighbor, The Mosaic Law directed the Israelites to love their neighbor, we can see the law being professed in this verse below

• Leviticus 19:18 - You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord [YHWH].

Neighbor is in regards to one’s fellow man, for some Jews went off the rails on the meaning and focused on solely themselves than others, especially those who kept the specific verbal traditions; all other people were to be considered enemies, which is not the case according to the Law itself - therefore for you to say something is Lawful when it isn't even written by Law or in the Torah makes you incorrect and it shows that you are looking at the verse at face value without context. Now let's move on to hate your enemy. As already stated, the Mosaic Law contained no such command. Some Jewish rabbis believed that the command to love their neighbor implied that they should hate their enemy, but nothing Scriptural in the Hebrew Old Testament makes prove to a specific Law of Man as you make mention of that points to such - therefore,it is unfounded.

Also these other references made help, regarding to continuing to love your enemies, just as Christ Jesus conveys by means of counsel, which is in harmony with the spirit of the Hebrew text and the Law itself (Exodus 23:4, 5, Job 31:29, Proverbs 24:17, 18 and 25:21), furthermore, this also hangs on to the foremost commandments.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is words in sermon Jesus gave to Jew people who came to hear. So, it is clear, to me,  that Jew leaders (who ever they have been, religious or administrative (read political, hahaha) or something in a middle of both side, or some political/religious fractions among Jew nation) are those who was said something , about what Jesus has refer and used in his lesson and warning.

So far we have not seen any political leaders - as you claim.

We haven't seen any Law of Man that professes to hate your enemy - as you claim, which is countered by the fact that to hating an enemy is nowhere to be found in the Mosaic Law. The only thing that is found is to regarding loving your neighbor, in turn, loving your enemy.

If you truly understand Jesus' counsel, you would have been able to spot the fact of what he said before and after Matthew 5:43. After all, the cross-references even gives you the answer.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For example in Jesus time there are: The Pharisees, The Sadducees,  The Galileans,  The Sanhedrin, The Scribes.

Religious leaders and rabbis, leader of the Jews. Where are the political leaders you speak of, a specific one, like I asked?

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Before, in "golden time" of Kings, there are/was exist opposition also.  Read the Bible for information's.    

True, but then you have the Mosaic Law, and you were not being specific of a political figure who does something entirely different from what is written.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Sort of resume:

People before and now (past/present) , Jew's or Christian's or JW's or some other's believers in holy Bible can follow "The Word" or "The Law" which source can be from God, from god's, from human. Also, "word" and "law" can be amalgam, mixture of all parties mentioned in sentence before - we have the same "problem" of old new or new old, it depends of who stand before issue (one proverb say, old joke-new fool).  

And yet God's Spoken Word professed the Law and the Law was applied to the people, an example would be in Moses Day and the very fact that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible and in the Hebrew Text it is called the Torah, otherwise known as Instruction. plethora of laws are found within the first five books, an example would be Shema Yisrael.

So pretty much God's Word and the Law are one in the same, the Laws professed in the New Testament are the same, but are Biblical Principles to which Christians are to apply.

Old Laws still hang on to the foremost commandments - for the Bible says so, therefore the fool will be made knowledgeable because he now sees God's Word is true.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That is conclusion i can read from Jesus quote in Matthew. “You have heard that it was said,.."

You may want to re-read the passage again if you missed that something was not mentioned in the Mosaic Law, what you professed holds no water if you cannot bring proof to claim.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and most important, "WHO was said?!" ---- Rabin's, Pope, priests, elders, GB of WTJWorg ......?  

The laws still hang, I am pretty sure Restorationist Christians are aware of that if they themselves cross-references this and refer to it as the Law of Christ.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

At the end of a day no one can be absolutely sure what is, what was The PURE Word or The PURE Law of JHVH and what is/are NOT. :)) 

It isn't unknown to anyone, simply read the Old Testament, for it matches up with what Jesus says in the New Testament and or anyone else?

For example, when Satan tried to tempt Jesus:

• Matthew 4:10 - Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”
• Luke 4:8 - And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”

And what Law Jesus is referring to exactly? The answer is here by means of cross-references to the Old Testament:

• Exodus 20:3 - You shall have no other gods before me.
• Deuteronomy 6:13 - It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear.
• Deuteronomy 10:20 - You shall fear the Lord your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear.

Very simple and at the end of the day, this is known by those who take the time to read, research, apply and study the Scriptures.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The Essenes, The Zealots, The 'Am Ha-aretz, ...

The Samaritans, the Sicarii, The Herodians ...

Your point? Also you are aware that in those days there were people for God and people who were against God, and those who had no idea who the True God is - right? This should be known for we discussed this before.

That being said, you are driving the focus away from the actually verses you based your topic on, so I will quote you as a reminder:

Note: Pretty much your focus has already been answered several times on this same thread.

Quote

On 10/28/2018 at 2:02 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Confusing and controversial ideas and perceptions we can find about God, life and death, feelings, acts/deeds of human and gods.

HOW GOD FEELS ABOUT LIFE

3. What did Jehovah do when Cain killed Abel?

3 The Bible teaches us that our life and the lives of other people are precious to Jehovah. For example, when Cain—Adam and Eve’s son—was very angry with his younger brother Abel, Jehovah warned Cain that he needed to control his anger. But Cain didn’t listen, and he became so angry that he “assaulted his brother Abel and killed him.” (Genesis 4:3-8) Jehovah punished Cain for murdering Abel. (Genesis 4:9-11) So anger and hatred are dangerous because they can make us become violent or cruel. A person who is like that cannot have everlasting life. (Read1 John 3:15.) To please Jehovah, we must learn to love all people.—1 John 3:11, 12. - https://www.jw.org/ase/publications/books/bible-study/respect-gods-gift-of-life-blood/

 

On other side we can find this in Bible, directly as words inspired to be written by Almighty God.  

 

  7   Remember, O Jehovah,What the Eʹdom·ites said on the day Jerusalem fell:“Tear it down! Tear it down to its foundations!”+ 

⁸  O daughter of Babylon, who is soon to be devastated,+Happy will be the one who rewards you With the treatment you inflicted on us.+

⁹  Happy will be the one who seizes your children And dashes them against the rocks.+ -  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/psalms/137/

 

 

I suggest you better acquaint yourself with what the Mosaic Law is. If you can somewhat comprehend Galatians 3:28, this, the laws of the Jews, should not be that complex.