What Happens When A Couple of the Opposite Sex Are Alone?

[Guest Nicole]

This article from July 2018 states: 

If an unmarried couple spend the night together under improper circumstances, would that constitute a sin meriting judicial action?

Yes, if there are no extenuating circumstances, a judicial committee would be formed on the basis of strong circumstantial evidence of sexual immorality.—1 Cor. 6:18.

The body of elders carefully evaluates each situation to determine whether a judicial committee is warranted. For example: Have the couple been pursuing a romantic relationship? Have they been previously counseled regarding their conduct with each other? What circumstances led to their spending the night together? Did they plan ahead to do so? Did they have a choice in the matter, or were there extenuating circumstances, perhaps an unforeseen occurrence or genuine emergency that left them with no choice but to spend the night together? (Eccl. 9:11) What were the sleeping arrangements? Since each situation is different, there may be other relevant factors that the elders will consider.

After the facts are established, the body of elders will determine whether the couple’s conduct warrants judicial action.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018484

My questions are: What could be those improper circumstances? Is not there the "two witnesses rule" for the elders to form a  judicial committee and accuse you? 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Every once in awhile Elders DO have some common sense.

Circa 1982 I had invited a Sister up from Los Angeles to visit me in Concord, California near San Francisco. We were going to spend the weekend together, and I had made arrangements for her to stay at another Sisters house Saturday night, but we got back from our date about 3AM, and rather than disturb the host Sister, we went to my townhouse, and she slept in my bed, and I slept on the sofa, downstairs.

She flew back to LA Sunday morning, and Sunday afternoon at the meeting ( apparently the host Sister had talked to him) an Elder taps me on the shoulder and asks me, without any preamble at all "Where did Barbara sleep last night?"

I told him, and that was the end of that.

 

[Evacuated]

8 hours ago, Nicole said:

improper circumstances?

Under the same roof with no one else present in the dwelling, or in the same room if someone was, and without any reasonable extenuating circumstances. The witnesses would be to the fact this had ocurred, not to necessarily whatever actions took place.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

27 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Under the same roof with no one else present in the dwelling, or in the same room if someone was, and without any reasonable extenuating circumstances. The witnesses would be to the fact this had ocurred, not to necessarily whatever actions took place.

That is exactly what happened to me.

It was cleared up in less than 20 seconds.

[Shiwiii]

Ok, maybe my opinion isn't needed here but I am sure to give it anyway.

 

What happened to individual morals? If two people are adults, and I mean mature enough to understand the dangers of being alone together out of public view after a wonderful evening, etc. , why must other adults....err....grown men stick their noses in other people's business? Sure there can be some accountability held by informing a friend or family member of the evening plans or whatever, but to have an adult principal to oversee your dance party/movie night/dinner date is actually pathetic and demonstrates a lack of self control and a willingness to let others dictate YOUR life.  This whole idea that elders have some sort of authority over how you live your life is expressing that jws as a whole cannot make their own decisions and must sneak and hide like high school kids. If you have no personal boundaries, then you are going to do what you are going to do, its just like integrity, you have it or your don't. 

I just don't get it.

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It was cleared up in less than 20 seconds.

Reasonable extenuating circumstances. A good example.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Shiwiii:

Think of it this way ... A Police Department, because of their power and authority, MUST be as pure and blameless as the driven snow .... yet, they still have to recruit from flawed humans, some more advanced, smart, and people of dedication and integrity ... and some .... not so much.

The same thing is true of ANY religion TRYING to serve God in "the right way".

At the foremost of this, is Jehovah's Witnesses.

Just as a Police Department has methods and means to weed out graft, corruption, and hidden evil .. usually relegated to an "Internal Affairs" department ... so to Jehovah's Witnesses need methods and means to have an organization that is honest, competent, properly focused, and free from evil, as defined by Jehovah God, and the Bible.

The Elders getting into everybody's "business" is an attempt to keep the "Department" responsible, and the "Officers" (Jws) on the right track(s) ... not only for their own best interests ... but for the best interests of the "Department", and to properly serve their "employer", Jehovah God.

The JW "Internal Affairs" Department.

Yes,  there is sometimes a problem in the execution of any plans... in any human endeavor ..re-engineering humans to be better by people themselves flawed is always problematic.

"Stuff Happens"

...... "Stuff" ALWAYS happens.

A human NOT one of Jehovah's Witnesses has the complete freedom to do what they want, or can manage.

The people that DO have integrity .... where did they get it?

It's not ALWAYS just a matter of you either having integrity ... or you don't.

As a Barbarian who had to LEARN integrity (hopefully ...) I can tell you .. if you WANT to be part of the solution to human foibles, rather than the CAUSE ... you HAVE to know what that higher standard is, and be determined, or even guided, or pushed into following that standard.

Hopefully the "pushers" really do know what they are doing, and do it correctly.

You would not want a police officer that ONLY stole 15%, or perverted Justice, knowing he would never be caught. ..... etc.

It is an experimental and hazardous process at best ... sometimes a Policeman shoots the wrong person.

Such is life on Earth, among the Sons and Daughters of DNA.

Get it?

 

[Shiwiii]

15 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Think of it this way ... A Police Department, because of their power and authority, MUST be as pure and blameless as the driven snow .... yet, they still have to recruit from flawed humans, some more advanced, smart, and people of dedication and integrity ... and some .... not so much.

 

oh yes, I totally understand this point. To assimilate the jw elders to police, while a very accurate analogy, is going  a bit far. Without going into the qualifications of these "police elders", they aren't even versed in the ways they are supposed to be, ie CSA. They are merely told to call someone else. I don't even buy the whole "well they are imperfect people", that is a complete cop out and a perfect excuse for the blunders they've committed. If they are not qualified, then they're not anything more than advisers. Advice is great if it is accepted and put into practice, but in reality that's all they are is advisers. 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Just as a Police Department has methods and means to weed out graft, corruption, and hidden evil .. usually relegated to an "Internal Affairs" department ... so to Jehovah's Witnesses need methods and means to have an organization that is honest, competent, properly focused, and free from evil, as defined by Jehovah God, and the Bible.

again spiritual cops? hardly. In the end we, individuals, are held accountable for what we have done, not a group of uneducated men dictating the "standards" of an organization. While on this topic of standards, Can anyone show me in the Bible where beards are looked down upon? how about higher education? birthdays? and the list goes on. Its not found anywhere, its man made. 

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The people that DO have integrity .... where did they get it?

It's not ALWAYS just a matter of you either having integrity ... or you don't.

As a Barbarian who had to LEARN integrity (hopefully ...) I can tell you .. if you WANT to be part of the solution to human foibles, rather than the CAUSE ... you HAVE to know what that higher standard is, and be determined, or even guided, or pushed into following that standard.

isn't this where parents and the Bible come in? It is.

Integrity is learned by following the morals instilled in you from either your dedication to the Bible/God, your parents (family), friends, observation, etc. Even then, some choose to disregard those morals and thus do not have it. 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Hopefully the "pushers" really do know what they are doing, and do it correctly.

You would not want a police officer that ONLY stole 15%, or perverted Justice, knowing he would never be caught. ..... etc.

It is an experimental and hazardous process at best ... sometimes a Policeman shoots the wrong person.

Such is life on Earth, among the Sons and Daughters of DNA.

Get it?

that is wishful thinking. We already know people are flawed. Sure we all make mistakes, get speeding tickets, lie, cheat, steal, etc. Its our human nature, but to give authority to a group of men who are no more trained than I is absurd. To be held accountable and receive discipline in the magnitude that is dished out, merely based on standards imposed by men, is just plain foolishness. I guess that may also be why the gb doesn't want people to go and receive higher education, to learn to think for themselves. 

I apologize if I may offend anyone with my statements here, but it is "the truth". 

 

[Guest Nicole]

How could it be when you have to travel with a  co-worker (opposite sex) and stay at a rented house (different rooms) to attend a congress, an exhibition? 

Maybe it is my erratic perception but as for what I read in the Spanish version of that article,  you are already guilty from the moment you spend the night , at the same house with someone who is not your spouse, (no matter if you spend the night locked in your room watching the JW Broadcasting)  and now you have to prove your innocence ?

 

Preguntas de los lectores

Si dos cristianos que no están casados entre sí pasan la noche en la misma casa en circunstancias impropias, ¿prueba eso que han pecado, y por tanto hay que formar un comité judicial?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

42 minutes ago, Nicole said:

Maybe it is my erratic perception but as for what I read in the Spanish version of that article, you are already guilty from the moment you spend the night , at the same house with someone who is not your spouse, (no matter if you spend the night locked in your room watching the JW Broadcasting)  and now you have to prove your innocence ?

Unfortunately ... your observation, and Shiwiii's. are quite fair and accurate.

That is why, on average,  it takes 25 MAN-YEARS of witnessing to bring one  new person into the "Truth", who will stay a lifetime.

[TrueTomHarley]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 10:24 PM, Nicole said:

you are already guilty from the moment you spend the night , at the same house with someone who is not your spouse, (no matter if you spend the night locked in your room watching the JW Broadcasting)  and now you have to prove your innocence ?

It could be a ruse. Determined miscreants have been known to turn up the volume and aim the speakers outside, while keeping earplugs inserted themselves. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

On 11/1/2018 at 2:24 AM, Nicole said:

How could it be when you have to travel with a  co-worker (opposite sex) and stay at a rented house (different rooms) to attend a congress, an exhibition? 

Maybe it is my erratic perception but as for what I read in the Spanish version of that article,  you are already guilty from the moment you spend the night , at the same house with someone who is not your spouse, (no matter if you spend the night locked in your room watching the JW Broadcasting)  and now you have to prove your innocence ?

 

Preguntas de los lectores

Si dos cristianos que no están casados entre sí pasan la noche en la misma casa en circunstancias impropias, ¿prueba eso que han pecado, y por tanto hay que formar un comité judicial?

Yep, Elders are just puppets of the GB.  Child Abuse needs TWO WITNESSES  Two people in the same house needs NO WITNESSES. 

I know two brothers that share a house. Now you guys have been talking about hetrosexual relationships, BUT, what about homosexual relationships ? Oh dear the plot thickens. 

And I've known many occasions where one brother and one sister have gone out into the countryside to do the 'door to door ministry'. 

If it were me, and an Elder asked me, I would tell him to find something better to do. I would make it known to the whole congregation exactly what i was being accused of. Elders need putting in their place sometimes. They are supposed to be 'servants' of the congregation, but they try to 'lord over it'. 

Shepherds, Imitate the Greatest Shepherds 

¹⁰ Jesus expects elders to treat the flock the same way that he treated it. They must be willing to serve their brothers and sisters, instead of acting as their masters.

(from JW org) 

Jehovah God will judge each of us individually through Jesus Christ. People / men, are needed of course, to run any organisation, or it would not be organised. But they should know their limits and even question their superiors if needs be. Elders treating the GB as if the GB are gods, does not help the situation, and indeed it has caused many of the present problems within the Org.