The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God

[Space Merchant]

@Anna And even if you profess the truth, Trinitarians still remain in denial and go about mental gymnastics, they make claim to the Trinity when the apostolic church proves them otherwise and the teachings of that church still remains today, that God is Jesus' Father and Jesus is the Son of God.

[Shiwiii]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, you have nullified much of what scripture has given in favor of Christ being the son.

please demonstrate where I have nullified anything. Is it here where I quoted myself? 

On 11/2/2018 at 2:24 PM, Shiwiii said:

let me just say that I believe that Jesus was begotten.

 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

We can agree that scripture cannot contradict itself.

Great, so what part of John 1:3 says Jesus created Himself? Or that Jesus was created? I think John 1:3 clearly states that not one thing that was created was created without Jesus. 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, the oneness in John 1:3 applies to the first. This is the only way it can be interpreted. Strong, supports this understanding as well. The cognitive debate is on how its meant in John. In this case, it is referring to firstborn. Firstborn in human form by a spirit entity. Jesus helped god, and through him, things came to be. John used this understanding to illustrate the unity Jesus and God have.

so in this part of your post, let me see if I follow you, are you saying that Jesus being born here on Earth is the part where firstborn comes in? obviously Jesus was not the first person born here on Earth, but He is the firstborn of God. This singles Him out from among other's by different means then physical birth, it must have more meaning. Correct? 

Lets look at Issac, why was he called "firstborn"? He wasn't the first child born to Abraham. 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Lust-Eynikel-Hauspie, a Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint (LEH)

See here I have not a problem, per se, but a question. Why are you using a lexicon of the Septuagint when dealing with the New Testament? The Septuagint is the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, Old Testament to Greek. Either way, when you read the lexicon for the Septuagint you ARE getting the meanings of the Greek words that best represent the Hebrew meaning and then converting it into English(or whatever language). To convey the meaning from Hebrew to Greek is not an easy task, but to then convert it into English it compounds the loss of meaning and breaks it down to what "best fits".  Nothing wrong with that, but you must keep that in mind if you are going to use this as your support. And by the way, I noticed you didn't use any scripture to support your position. John 1:3 doesn't count since it is our subject. 

 

So if scripture cannot contradict itself, explain to me using scripture how John 1:3 doesn't say that Jesus created everything that was created and without Him nothing was created. 

 

 

 

[Shiwiii]

13 hours ago, John Houston said:

And Revelation 4:11 tells us that it is by Jehovah God's will that all things were created. ALL THINGS, even his son, the Word, at the start.

does this not contradict John 1:3? how do YOU reconcile the two scriptures? 

 

[Shiwiii]

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Or this one.... Wait for it.... Acts 2 pretty much tells you God raised Jesus from the Dead, and he made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Trinitarians do not like to go to Acts 1 and 2 at all.

I agree that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24). Who did it, or claimed to do it, according to these scriptures:

John 2:19  ?

Romans 8:11  ?

[Shiwiii]

4 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I don't believe I mentioned it did. The way Trinitarians want it to be explained is how John becomes nullified since Christ did not create himself, just like God was not created by our definition of creation.  Keep in mind the imperative here, through him, in John. God continued his creation along with Michael. They are still separate entities bonded in a union for one common goal, to continue with creation. Where would you place trinity in this instance to mean Jesus and God, 2=1 Jesus is God?

John 1:3 still says that not one thing that was created was created without Jesus. 

 

I'm not even talking about the trinity, I am talking about how John 1:3 says that nothing was created without Jesus. How is that so? 

[Shiwiii]

Just now, BillyTheKid46 said:

Firstborn through God's spirit, correct, not created as Adam. However, you can include firstborn spirit child (Perfect) that remained a perfect spiritual human. Jesus did not lose his perfection, like Adam.

I can agree here, but nothing says Jesus was created. Firstborn, yes, but the meaning of firstborn in context is not synonymous with created. 

[Space Merchant]

32 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I agree that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24). Who did it, or claimed to do it, according to these scriptures:

It was professed that it was God who raised Jesus from the Dead, as well as God making him both the Lord and Christ.

33 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

John 2:19  ?

The verse conveys that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was the Father's Word and the Father spoke decisively when He raised Jesus from the dead.

When Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up and we can see the reaction and action from the Jews taken after this was said.

The facts show us that his body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father, as we are well aware of regarding the Old and New Testament and by means of whom Jesus came from. And clearly this did not sit well with the Jews and they plot to kill him.

Matthew 26:59-61, 27:39, 40 and  Mark 14:57, 58 are also references.

41 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Romans 8:11  ?

You technically answered yourself with this one granted that Romans 8:11 points back to Acts 2:24 and in addition to the other references being Ephesians 2:1, 5. For indeed, God was the one responsible for taking the Lord out of the pangs of Death.

[Shiwiii]

18 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Scholastically, there are many renders to biblical understanding. I find it useful when we make certain observations about context and intent. This is meant to show those variations when we are attempting to be absolute.

sure, but translating words from one language to another just to translate it again to another, is losing its meaning.

 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

We would like to think that God used Michael to create. In common sense, we are referring to creation. Can there be two creators? if so, who is the highest of them, or can they be equal. Did God create Michael as an equal? Scripture doesn't bear witness to that. Once again, are we trying to add to scripture which is forbidden by God?

The problem I have with this thinking is that it is not backup by scripture and contradicts John 1:3. 

 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Then we would have to believe in one of two things. Certain ideas come to mind. Either God is a woman, or God had a wife. Is this unheard of? no, there are some that have investigated these claims. If we stick with scripture, there is only one way to look at God. As a creator. Firstborn would fall under that category.

This is interjecting ideas not found within our topic of conversation. I agree, lets stick to scripture. What does John 1:3 say? How can this be reconciled to the rest of scripture in regards to creation? 

[Shiwiii]

41 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

When Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up and we can see the reaction and action from the Jews taken after this was said.

The facts show us that his body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father, as we are well aware of regarding the Old and New Testament and by means of whom Jesus came from. And clearly this did not sit well with the Jews and they plot to kill him.

Matthew 26:59-61, 27:39, 40 and  Mark 14:57, 58 are also references.

Right, Jesus said He would raise Himself up. Which He did. So here Jesus raised Himself. 

Yes, of course the Jews didn't like it, because He claimed something that only God could claim. 

 

42 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You technically answered yourself with this one granted that Romans 8:11 points back to Acts 2:24 and in addition to the other references being Ephesians 2:1, 5. For indeed, God was the one responsible for taking the Lord out of the pangs of Death.

Right, so the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead. Yes it does reference back to Acts 2:24. Another instance of this is in Acts as well, Acts 13:2

[Shiwiii]

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Okay. Let’s look at John 2:19 What is Jesus intent. The context is clear. To cleanse the temple after the Jews demanded proof of Jesus Authority.

 

Even if you destroy this temple, in three days I will raise it up again.

 

While the Jews were literally talking about a physical temple, Jesus was referring to himself. Isn’t that what happened?

absolutely! What did happen? Jesus said He would raise Himself and that is what happened. He was raised. Here in John 2:19 He says He would do it. I agree that Jesus was speaking of His body as the temple. It was exactly this, His body,  that He said He would raise. It was done just as He said it would be. Did this confuse the Jews? Kind of, because they missed the part that He was talking about His body/Temple. They thought the actual temple that THEY build. 

[Space Merchant]

1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

Right, Jesus said He would raise Himself up. Which He did. So here Jesus raised Himself. 

The only factor that plays against you is the fact Jesus was/is able to do nothing himself expect the Father who is able to do these things.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus insisted that he was not able to do anything from himself. As he himself testified, it was the Father abiding in him who did the works (John 14:10; cf. Matt 12:28; Acts 2:22). Now, to you, if this was true of Jesus while he was alive and well, how much more was he unable to do anything of himself when he was laying dead in a tomb.

• John 5:30 - I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

The other factor against you in this regard what is said in other verses in Acts and elsewhere, I can think of 16 verses, coupled with references and context, right now.

7 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Yes, of course the Jews didn't like it, because He claimed something that only God could claim. 

Not to mention they misinterpret what he said, as is done before.

7 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Right, so the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit, raised Jesus from the dead. Yes it does reference back to Acts 2:24. Another instance of this is in Acts as well, Acts 13:2

So how, according to you does that relate back to Acts 2:24 when Acts 13:2 is not a cross-references to the core passage in of itself?

We also should not be leaving out the fact the verse professed before states that He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. So yes.

As for Acts 13:2 it reads: While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

The Holy Spirit is spoken of many, many times in the Greek Text as it is mentioned here as well, and the focus here is the Christ who has died and has risen, Acts 13:2 focuses on such ones ministering for God. The references for this verse points to Ac 9:15 and 1 Timothy 2:7, even while outlined nothing points back in references to Jesus being risen from the tomb.

[Space Merchant]

@BillyTheKid46 Well there is more, including the ones all 3 of us had mentioned.

That being,

• God raised him up again, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for him to be held by it. (Acts 2:24).
• This Jesus God raised up again. (Acts 2:32). 
• You put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. (Acts 3:15). 
• Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead (Acts 4:10). 
• The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. (Acts 5:30). 
• God raised him up on the third day (Acts 10:40). 
• God raised Him from the dead... God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten You." He raised him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption... He whom God raised did not undergo corruption (Acts 13:30-37). 
• His Son, who came to be out the seed of David according to the flesh, fixed son of God in power by the resurrection out of the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:3-4) 
• Those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. (Romans 4:24). 
• Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)
• But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 8:11).
• God raised him from the dead. (Romans 10:9). 
• Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 6:14). 
• Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. (1 Corinthians 15:15). 
• We also believe, therefore we also speak knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus.
• (2 Corinthians 4:13-14). 
• The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.... He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenlies (Ephesians 1:17-20). 
• You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead. (1 Thessalonians 1:10) 
• ...through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:21)
• God the Father, who raised him from the dead. (Galatians 1:1).