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Stake or Cross? How did Jesus die? What proof do we have?

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15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I think it should be noted that Cross came many, many years after Jesus' death

I think the idea that the the Stauros might have been just an upright pole also came many, many years after Jesus' death, long after Christendom had already taken up a two-piece Stauros as a symbol.

In another thread you mentioned that it was 400 years after Jesus' death. Did you have a specific piece of evidence in mind?

I'll bring that statement over here for reference:

On 11/9/2018 at 5:20 PM, Space Merchant said:

Stauros is an upright pole, the cross came into Christendom 400 years or so after the Christ. Stauros is deemed a upright stake of torture by many because of how vile and crazy Roman executions were, which was still in practice later later on. They added torture stake because it, ironically enough and to your surprise, with the Strong's. It is no different from the use of upright stake or tree.

To add more fuel to the fire, such a device by the Romans is used to torture even kill those hung from such a thing, they even break the legs of people to hasten ones death.

As a side note, look into The Torture/Torment  of Marsyas, he himself was on an upright stake the same one of which he was torture on.

https://itsartalicious.wordpress.com/2015/03/12/the-torment-of-marsyas-greek-sculpture/

 

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3 hours ago, Outta Here said:

I was just looking for a reference on that. Can you share it? ?

"The Greek word translated “hands” is cheir, which means literally “hands.” There is no Greek word for “wrists” in the New Testament, even though some versions translate Acts 12:7 to say that the chains fell off Peter’s wrists. But the Greek word in this verse is also cheir"

https://www.gotquestions.org/nails-hands-wrists.html
Of course this assumption is not 100% fool proof either....

Also there is an interesting debate here including an interesting comment "If one wants to get anatomically picky, the eight bones of the human wrist are counted among the 27 hand bones".

I can verify that in some languages there is no distinction between the whole arm or just the hand. In order to specify what one means you have to say either arm*, or forearm. Usually the context clarifies what one means; for example "wash your hands" wouldn't mean wash your whole arm, but it can get confusing  if you say you broke your arm, because that could mean your hand. Of course there are exact terms for the parts of the upper limb just as there are in English: shoulder, arm, elbow, forearm, wrist and hand. But as you can see the word arm* in English could include all those parts, excluding the hand xD. When I fractured my knee, people would say I broke my leg. Languages are interesting!

@JOHN BUTLER Bones of the hand include the wrist xD

image.png

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In fact, there is probable evidence that it was already associated with Christians as early as the very next century after Jesus Christ.

It is interesting to note that the (presumably) earliest forms of Christian art (Catacombs in Rome) date from late 2nd century and there is no depiction of a cross. But there is no depiction of a upright stake either (!) It has been argued that this omission could be because the early Christians didn't want to depict anything to do with Jesus' instrument of death for fear of idolatry. Which says a lot about the "Christians" that came after. They did a 180 degree turn and put crosses everywhere.

 

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

Also there is an interesting debate here including an interesting comment "If one wants to get anatomically picky, the eight bones of the human wrist are counted among the 27 hand bones".

This was very interesting. The reference to Matt.22:13 particularly because it says "bind him hand and foot". Now when hands are bound as a restraint, we assume it is the wrists that are tied becuse it would be easy to slip out of literal hand ties. (Similarly with feet and ankles) So this seems confirm that,  in the lack of a specific word for "wrist", the Greek word for hand has a broader application.

I like the comment that said :

"And it’s true that Luke and John imply that Jesus was nailed in His “hands,” but then again the Bible also says that Rebeka wore bracelets on her “hands” (Genesis 24:22,30, 47), that the chains fell off of Peter’s “hands”(Acts 12:7), that when Nebuzaradan declared Jeremiah freed: “I release you today from the chains on your hands” (Jeremiah 40:4), that “the ropes that were on [Samson’s] arms became like flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds broke loose from his hands” (Judges 15:14) If you’re reading a more literal translation, that is.

In Hebrew and biblical Greek, bracelets and fetters are something put on someone’s yad/cheir ‘hands’, though we might be more precise and say ‘wrist’ or ‘forearm’. (Also see Ezekiel 16:11 “And I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around your neck”; 23:42 “And they put bracelets on the hands of the women and beautiful crowns on their heads”)

I mean, even today, handcuffs are put on the wrists, right?"

Seems that some advocates point to the "Shroud of Turin" as evidence in this matter.  ?

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15 hours ago, Anna said:

It has been argued that this omission could be because the early Christians didn't want to depict anything to do with Jesus' instrument of death for fear of idolatry.

In the first century, the Christian congregation was largely Jewish, and all the Christian Bible writers were identified as Jewish. So the longstanding tradition was to follow the practice of no images of any kind. So we might not have even expected a symbol of a fish to spread around in the first century. Some of the Christian-associated writers and books that appear to have come from the second century were also identified as Jewish. (Letter of Barnabas, Didache, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Thomas, Egerton Gospel, the Christian redaction of Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, etc.) This could include as many as half of the 100 or so writings that many scholars think originated in the second century. See especially column 2 of the list here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

The Jewishness of the early Christians is indicated by the extended time period of Jewish-centered writings. And, rather than attacking Judaizers, there is a pro-Jewish perspective seen in the last book of the Bible, which is quite possibly from the year 100 CE, and which would place it in the second century, too:

  • (Revelation 2:9) . . .and the blasphemy by those who call themselves Jews and really are not, but they are a synagogue of Satan.
  • (Revelation 3:9)  Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying—look! I will make them come and bow before your feet and make them know that I have loved you.

This is meant mostly as an explanation of why we have so few images of anything from the first two centuries of Christianity. And, any solution that might overcome the lack of images, we might therefore expect to come from writing, descriptions, word pictures, or even pictographs made from written characters. If the writers had consistently gone out of their way to give special attention to the letter T, for example, this might have been evidence of a T shaped Stauros.

First of all, the Letter of Barnabas, dated 80 CE to 120 CE actually does give special attention to the letter T. And, yes, the "Letter of Barnabas" ties the letter T directly to the Stauros.

You might remember that I went so far as to contact someone at the British Museum to suggest resources on this same topic. I was told that I must read the books they had from a scholar named Larry W Hurtado, Professor Emeritus at University of Edinburgh, who studied at the the Ancient History Documentary Research Centre, at Macquarie University. I have 4 of his books including, "The Earliest Christian Artifacts -- Manuscripts and Christian Origins" (2006).

This book shows that the first symbol for the Stauros actually was drawn from characters for writing, a pictogram made up of alphabetic characters. This is what we would expect from a culture that allowed no images, per se.

The topic is fascinating. First of all, there were certain words that were given special treatment in the earliest known texts of Christianity, especially the "New Testament" Bible texts themselves. The "Divine Names" (nomina sacra) were treated with a special type of abbreviation and a kind of halo over them that connected the first and last letters of the word. The primary words that got this treatment were: God, Jesus, Lord, and Christ. In the Egerton Gospel (70 - 120 CE) we see these already in use, plus a a few more. By the 300's words like Son, Savior, Spirit, and Stauros were already treated as "Divine Names" (nomina sacra).

The oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of Thomas, Acts of Peter, Acts of John, contain them, as do all of our major Bible texts, including fragments from the second century. Even "Old Testament" texts that were copied through Christian hands were copied with consistent examples of the "nomina sacra."  The nomina sacra for "Jesus" was already discussed in both the Letter of Barnabas and by Clement of Alexandria, both from the second century, with a chance that Barnabas was written in the first century. [Epistle of Barnabas (9.7-8) and Clement of Alexandria (Strom. 6.278-80)]. So we know that the practice goes back possibly as early as the earliest Christian writings. As mentioned earlier, Barnabas discusses it with reference to T (tau) being the symbol for the "cross" or stauros, for no other reason than its shape.

But there is much more on this. Stauros got the most special kind of treatment beyond that of any other "nomina sacra."  (To be continued in another post).

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@Outta Here Quote "I fail to see the relevance of your GB jibes in this.They are like a sort of phonic tic that keeps appearing in your postings, regardless of subject matter."

I am proving that the GB are not the 'faithful and discreet slave' and therefore they cannot give the true spiritual food at  the right time. 

Myself and others on this forum are showing quite clearly that the GB very often get things wrong. it is only people such as yourself that worship the GB by not questioning them, that cannot see truth in front of your own eyes.  

Myself and others here have shown that the GB at times deliberately 'get things wrong' or more likely, deliberately tell lies. They deliberately make misquotes trying to prove false points. 

That is not just the opinion of one person (myself) but of many ex Jw's and current JW's. 

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There is an interesting linguistic phenomenon where the s sound is not perfectly mimicked when words transfer from one language to another. The shibboleth in Hebrew was an example, with sibboleth as the alternative. French is famous for this where Latin words like studium became words like étude, dropping the initial s. And French rarely pronounces a final s of a word, except through elision. In Spain many words spelled with an s are pronounced with a soft "th" which often disappears altogether. Here is a question about it with a couple examples, I saw here, http://www.spanishdict.com/answers/209708/dropping-the-s-do-people-talk-like-this

  • Listening to a few of my songs sung by native Spanish speakers I noticed that they seem to leave the letter s out when saying some words - sounding like 'etán' instead of están or leaving i[t] off if the word ends in s - eg. Dio mío.  [instead of Dios mio].

Even between Greek and Latin, there was an evolution with the letter "s" so that for example, the numbers 6 (hex) and 7 (hepta) became 6 (sex) and 7 (septa). [heptagon, September, etc.]

There are hundreds more such examples. So speakers familiar with Mediterranean dialects probably could easily understand words that left off an initial "s" and a final "s." 

So what happens when one leaves off the initial "s" and final "s" of the word STAUROS?

You get Tau-Ro and can spell it with two Greek letters: Tau-Rho.

If there had been any tendency to want to highlight the letter T in any of the "nomina sacra" adjustments to special terms referring to either Jesus or God in the early Christian texts, then this would have been the best opportunity, because all the other major words started with Th/Theta (Theos), X (Christ), I/Iota (Jesus) K (Kurios/Lord). 

But the Tau-Rho was combined in such a way that it apparently produces a simple image of Jesus Christ on the Stauros. It's called a "Staurogram" and is the earliest known of the two best-known "Christograms." Rememer that Tau looks like a T and Rho looks like our letter P. If you put the Tau down first and then the Rho on top of it, you'd get:

Staurogram

This was a kind of stick figure drawing, and is found in very early manuscripts where either the noun stauros is intended, or the verb for "crucify" is intended. The image is taken from the Bodmer Papyrus P.75, and therefore, according to https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/the-staurogram/:

  • Staurograms serve as the earliest images of Jesus on the cross, predating other Christian crucifixion imagery by 200 years. Photo: Foundation Martin Bodmer.

Image result for staurogram

If one had wanted to spell out the initial and final S of the word (which looks like a C in Greek Uncial (or Coptic) it would be done like this:

11495

The intention of these symbols becomes clear when pictorial imagery became more widely accepted in the Christian-associated churches. Note that an "Alpha" and "Omega" are also added to the imagery in this instance. Also note that the head is always above the crossbeam of the Tau, implying that the shape used a lowered crossbeam. (Or that it was important to lift Jesus head above the cross for symbolic purposes.)

Image result for staurogram

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Having read through all the comments and had a good laugh, i am now more convinced than ever of the GB not being the FDS.

It seems some people need to hang on desperately to the 'cliff edge', being frightened of losing their 'faith' in thier GB. 

The points are quite simple. The NWT is a 'readable' bible. It uses 'readable words'. The translators have a very great responsibility to God and to 'men'. Yet at John 20 v 25, it chooses to use the words HANDS and NAILS, both in the plural. I am sure it the translators felt it would be right, they would have used the word 'wrists' if that word was also a meaning of the original 'cheir' 

Another point I have just noticed and this may be important. in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greeks Scriptures.

In the GREEK writing, the word for hands at John 20 v 25 is different to the word for hands at Acts 12 v 7. 

I looked and looked at this to be sure I was right, and it is different. I do so wish I could read Greek and Hebrew. 

So back to the picture and the John 20 v 25 scripture..... And another question/s. Is the GB trying to persuade / convince people of things that they themselves do not even know for sure ?  if so is that even a spiritual thing to do ? 

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@JW Insider your information is fantastic but you are way above me on all of this. I'm such a simple man, BUT so are so many people.

My point being made is, so many people are 'simple' 'down to earth' 'not highly educated' 'not having all these Bible aids' and in honesty not capable of being able to do such research. Will none of you people understand ? Will none of you realise how much responsibility your GB has ? 

You GB sends you out to preach to people that have no knowledge or understanding of God's word. In fact as time goes on many people now have no knowledge of anything and some can barely read or write properly. Yes even here in the UK. 

You may say, it isn't the GB that sends you out, it is God through Jesus Christ. Yes of course it is, but the GB are the ones that 'feed' you the information that you should 'feed' to others. Hence the GB have people's lives in their hands. Your lives and the ones you preach to. 

If, as can be seen on the topics here, it is proved the GB tell lies, make mistakes, get things wrong. How is this being guided by God?  You  are going out with lies, false information, false hopes in some cases. Is this really how God and Jesus wants the work done ?

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Wikipedia shows a simple staurogram on an oil lamp from Caesarea, now at a museum in Israel, that could have come from the 300's CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staurogram#/media/File:Nahsholim-Tel-Dor-3187.jpg

This was one of the pieces of evidence that made me think that some Christians, especially those with Jewish family backgrounds, might have found staurogram designs to be preferable to the type of graven imagery apparently forbidden in the Mosaic Law.

There is also early imagery like this:

Image result for donkey on a cross Roman graffiti

The graffiti is dated to the late second century, likely within 100 years of the book of Revelation. It shows a man looking up to a donkey on a cross and says in Greek: “Alexamenos worships god.”

It's polemic, of course, depicting Jesus as a donkey. The book that @indagator recommended by Frank Shaw, discussed elsewhere, helps explain why Jesus was depicted as a donkey. The word for donkey seems to be a bit like onomatopoeia, like calling a donkey a "hee-haw" or "Eeyore". In Coptic the word for "donkey/ass" was EIO and the divine name known to have been used by Jews and evidently Christians and even pagans for the Jewish God was IAO [Ya'o/Yaho], the equivalent of "Yah" or "Yaho" [cf. Jah, Jaho, Jahowa].

Jewish and perhaps even Christian writers changed the names of pagan gods slightly so that they would sound insulting. (Compare Beelzebul, "Lord of the High Place," to Beelzebub, "Lord of the Flies."). The similarity between a word for "donkey" and the Jewish God's divine name made it a prime candidate for the same type of derision. And the Jewish name for Jesus contained both the divine name "Yaho" and the connected word for "Savior" or "Salvation." (Yaho-shuah/Joshua/Jesus means "Jehovah [Yaho] is Salvation.")

It was not because of the legend that "Your Savior will come riding on the back of a donkey" is the reason for the cross on the back of so many breeds of donkeys:

image.jpeg

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      2Peter. Jehovah The Father appears.
      John 1. Jehovah the son.
      John 8:58 Jesus identifies Himself as Jehovah "I Am"
      Acts 5. Jehovah the Holy Spirit identified.
    • By Jesus.defender
      Biblical Jesus Vs. Mormon Jesus.
      Simply believing in someone named Jesus means NOTHING unless we are talking about the historic, Biblical Jesus.
      The apostle Paul warns us in 2 Corinthians 11:4 — there are some who preach a different Jesus.
      - The Bible teaches that Jesus has always existed as God (John 1:1). Mormons see Jesus as someone who worked His way up to godhood.  In fact, to Mormons, Jesus is merely one in purpose with God the Father; whereas the Bible declares that the Father and the Son are also one in essence (cf. Phil. 2:6) — that they are both equally God and members of the Holy Trinity.
      - The Bible says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:34-5. Is. 7:14. Matt. 1:18,20.  Mormons see Jesus as being CREATED by sexual relations between God the father and mary.  "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50). "I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ...he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.211); "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.51). Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended by any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). Bruce McConkie (LDS apostle) states: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547, 1979).Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).
      - Mormons see Jesus as a polygamist. Apostle Orson Hyde: "…Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee... Mary, Martha, and others were his wives ... he begat children" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210). Jedediah M. Grant: "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82). Orson Hyde: "It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it" (Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259). Orson Pratt: "We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born... We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives are to be married" (The Seer, p. 172).
      - The Bible says that Jesus created ALL things. This includes lucifer. Gen. 3:1, Ez. 28:13,15,17Mormons see Jesus as a brother of satan, not His brother.
      - Mormons see Jesus was procreated as a spirit child of the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and later conceived physically by the Heavenly Father and an earthly mother: The Ensign, Jan. 1989, pp.28-29; Come Unto Christ by Ezra Taft Benson, p.4). Bruce McConkie states: "Christ the Word, the Firstborn, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence" (What Mormons Think of Christ, p.36).
      Bruce McConkie continues: "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129).
      Orson Pratt: "God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born" (The Seer, p. 172).
      "Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of Elohim." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol.4, Appendix 4).
    • By Brother Rando
      In order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled, "He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken." (Psalm 34:20)  Which method of death is true?  A or B?

    • Guest Nicole
    • By Witness
      Pearl Doxsey, July 2, 2018:
      Many refute that Michael the archangel is an identity of Jesus Christ, in his capacity as protector of the saints (Dan.12:1;John17:12; 6:39; 18:9; Rev.19:12) and defender of God's supremacy in the face of global idolatry (Rev.13:8,4) 
      (The name "Michael" means, "Who is like God?").
      Those who refute that role of the resurrected Jesus Christ, point to the fact that Jesus could not be a mere angel, even if being, an arch - angel. 
      Those who make such an assertion, apparently do not know the meaning of the Greek word, angelos. It simply means "messenger" (John12:49; 7:16). 
      The Greek meaning of "arch", is defined as the original prototype, with no equal. To be the "archangel", is to be supreme among God's messengers. 
      When Armageddon arrives, Jesus takes on an identity of a warrior (Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; 12:7) (Rev.3:12; Jer.31:33; Heb.10:16;Ex.34:14; Deut.11:18; Rev.7:3; 13:7,8,16,4). The name "Michael" ("Who is like God?"), perfectly describes his battle tactic and purpose, and indicates the target of his warfare that needs to be neutralized by the strategy reflected in that victorious name (Isa.40:25,18; 46:5) (Rev.13:14).

      Others may refute this named role of Jesus, based upon Michael being called "the great prince" (Dan.12:1) and "one of the chief princes" (Dan.10:12-14). Those are the topics that the link below, addresses.
      The article on the chief princes was broken down into three parts/questions. Previously, only part one was finished. This post serves as notice, that part two is now ready.
      June 6, 2015:
      QUESTION:

      "does the Bible shed light on how many Chief Princes are there and who they are as stated in Daniel 10:13 Michael, one of the chief princes"

      MY REPLY:

      Yes, the Bible sheds light on how many Chief Princes there are,
      who these chief princes are, and who all the princes are, among whom there are chief princes.
      Accordingly, I will answer your question in three parts.
      1. Who are all the "princes"?
      2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?
      3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
          (Jude1:9; Dan.10:21; 8:25; Acts 3:15)
          (Jude1:9; Job 1:8-11; Zech.3:1-2; Rev.12:10 --
                        "Moses" -Deut.18:15,18; Heb.3:5; Matt.16:28; 17:1-3,5; 2Pet.1:18; Rev.14:1)
      -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

      1. Who are the Bible's princes?

      I will limit my reply to the princes of God's covenant woman, and not include the princes of Satan's covenant of death
      (Eph.2:2; Isa.31:9; Eze.21:25; 22:27; 38:3; Dan.9:26; 10:20; Zeph.3:3; Rev.18:23; 9:7).

      The princes under the Great "guardian" Prince/Rescuer, (Dan.12:1; Isa.49:24-25; Matt.12:29; Rev.20:1-2; Luke10:19), who is Christ,
           (Isa.9:6; Dan.9:25; 12:1; John17:12; 6:39; 10:28; Matt.28:20),
      are the kings under the great king (Rev.19:16; 1:5; 3:21; 5:9,10; Eph.2:6; 1:22; Col.1:13).

      They are also considered by God, Christ's sons, because by means of Christ, they receive spirit life (John10:10; 20:22; 6:63; 5:21;17:2; Rom.8:9,10,11,13; 1John4:9,13; 5:11-12; 2:25; John3:6,15,36; 6:47,48,51,57,63; 10:28; Heb.5:9). "But", you may protest, "don't we all become 'sons of God'?". Yes. But there is more to it.---

      Within the Bible, forefathers are multiple. This tradition is a cultural difference from most modern day societies. 
      Please let me explain...
      Within the Bible, living faithful can have more than one father... both God and Christ (Isa.9:6).  Christ received his life from God first, before he can pass that incorruptible seed to those after him (1Pet.1:23; Luke8:11; John12:49; 6:63; James1:21).
      "Grandfather" is not in the Bible's language. This is why Abraham, David, Jacob, etc., are considered "fathers" of many subsequent generations. 
      All the generations of their descendants, have all of these as "fathers"
      (Zech.1:2,4-6; Acts3:13; 7:19; John8:39; Ex.3:6; Luke1:32; Matt.1:1), regardless of how many generations may come and go in between.

      Accordingly, we should not limit the spiritual lineage of those born of spirit, to either God or Christ as "father". Such ones are "sons" of both. Yet some are born of God's spirit directly (Rom.8:16; Heb.2:11), and others, through Christ and his bride (1Cor.15:45; Gal.4:26; Rev.22:17). 
      You may have noticed that within the scriptures, our spiritual fathers are the ones whom we imitate (John8:39,44; Eph.5:1;1Pet.1:16; Matt.5:44,45,48).  We can therefore, also be sons of Christ (1Pet.2:21) and of the sealed faithful (1Cor.11:1;4:15,14,16,17; 1John2:13,14; Philemon 1:10; Luke1:17; Phil.2:22; 3:17; 1Thess.2:11; 1:6) (Mal.4:5-6). 


      Hopefully, all these previous scriptures have helped to establish within your understanding, that whoever we imitate and do the will of, becomes our spiritual father (Eph.5:1; Matt.12:50; 7:21; 1John2:17; Rom.8:14) -- (Eph.2:2; John8:44). 
      If you do grasp that imitating Christ (1Cor.11:1; 1Pet.2:21) can make us his son, it will then be easier to grasp who the "princes" are. 

      First, lets look at Ps.45:16, which speaks of the dominion of Christ.

      "In place of your fathers will be your sons;
      You shall make them princes in all the earth."

      In place of Christ's kingly forefathers (Luke1:32; Isa.9:7; Matt.12:42), will come his spiritual sons (Heb.2:1-9,14,13,16; Isa.8:18;John10:28,29; 6:37-39; 17:2; 1Pet.1:5; Matt.18:3; 19:14), with whom he shares his kingdom (Ps.132:12; 110:2; Rev.3:21; 14:1;Jer.17:25; Eze.37:25; 34:24) (Heb.2:5,16; Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Gen.28:13,14; 13:14,15).
      They become co-kings (2Tim.2:12; Rev.5:9,10; 20:6) and co-princes (Isa.10:8; 9:6; Acts3:15; 5:31; Isa.32:1,2).
      As heirs of the earth, these will heal creation (Rom.8:19; Rev.22:1,2; 21:2-5; Jer.17:7,8; Matt.7:20; Eze.36:8), and also provide a "fatherly" example, that leads to life (1Cor.4:15-17; Phil.3:17; 4:9; 2Thess.3:9; 1Thess.1:6; 2Tim.3:14,15; Heb.13:7; 1Pet.5:3).
      From the foregoing reply to the first question...
      "Who are all the princes?";
      I hope you now perceive, that all those redeemed from death by Christ (Rev.5:9,10; 1Cor.15:54-55; Acts20:28) which "church" is the chosen saints of God's household (1Tim.3:15; 1Cor.14:33; 1Pet.2:10,9), are given fatherly life by Christ's blood...
             (through the new mother covenant of promise/sealed Bride
                 -Gal.4:26,24; Matt.26:28; Rom.9:8; Rev.12:2; Gal.4:19; Eph.4:13; 1Thess.2:7; 3John1:4) 
      ...These are his "sons", referred to as "princes" at Psalm 45:16.
      As such, they become "heirs of the earth" 
      (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29; Heb.2:5,16; Matt.5:5; Psalm.37:11,22,29)
      and are, 
      "all the princes".

      2. Who are the "chief princes" among all these princes?

      Based upon the facts established above, we can re-word this question as, "Who are the "chief saints/sons of God" among all the saints/anointed chosen and holy ones?". Does such a position, exist? Please consider:
      Luke 12:42; John 21:17
      Although all members of the "one body" bride of Christ (Eph.5:31-32; 1Cor.6:17) are needed by all other members (1Cor.12:21,25;4:7); each has their own assignment (1Cor.12:14,4-7,18,11,20; Eph.4:8,11-12). 
      Some are given more responsibility (Luke 12:42; Mark 13:34; Matt.25:14-15; James 3:1; 1Cor.12:24,26; Luke 14:8,10-11), as "chief princes". How does the Bible describe the position held by those appointed as such?
      One of the symbols used to describe the body of Christ, is as God's Temple (Rom.12:5; 1Cor.3:16; 1Pet.2:5,9-10; Col.1:13).
      Jesus, is described as the cornerstone of that Temple (1Pet.2:6-8; Matt.7:24-25). If we build our faith upon the teachings of that cornerstone, we will not be put to shame but all we teach, will be proven true (Rom.10:11; 3:4; John7:16-18). Can you perceive how the symbolic "chief" cornerstone of our faith (remember, "chief princes"?), is the first symbolic foundation to our worship in spirit and truth? 
      If so, then we are starting to build the Temple of God, within your perception. If the "chief cornerstone" is the "great prince"/"chief prince" (Dan.12:1)... What about the other "chief princes" (Dan.10:13)? Does the Bible describe the rest of God's symbolic Temple, as having other foundation stones, upon which our faith needs to be chiefly built upon?
      Please consider Eph.2:20-22; 3:5; Rev.21:14; 1:20; Dan.12:3-4; Phil.2:15; 2Cor.11:4; Gal.1:8-9; Luke12:42; 1Pet.5:2;Heb.13:17; 1Cor.4:15)
      1Cor.12:28 and Eph.2:20, clarify the arrangement of authority ("chiefs") within the congregation, appointed by God and Christ. The apostles are our foundation stones, along with Jesus the cornerstone, of the truth. 
      ---No one can remain in union with the cornerstone and head of the body, if they leave the teachings of the apostles, whom he appointed as fatherly heads to the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel (Matt.3:9; Gal.3:29,26; Rom.2:28-29; Rev.7:7; 21:11-12,14). 
      ---No one can remain in union with the unfolding direction of holy spirit, if they leave the declarations and warnings of the genuine and faithful prophets, whose foundation is the right hand of Jesus (Rev.1:20; 22:6; Amos 3:7; 2Pet.1:21; 1Cor.14:32-33;Rev.11:3-5; Jer.23:29; Zech.4:11-14,6; Hosea 6:5; Rev.22:6; Mal.3:1-3; Rev.11:3). Those "stars" provide the light of spirit to each of their assigned "lampstands" (Rev.1:20), which lampstands hold up, and work to make visible (Matt.5:14-15; Eph.2:19;Gal.6:10), the prophet/"star" whom they support (Heb.6:10).
      We have learned that the symbolic foundation to the Temple of God's spirit (1Cor.3:16), is the truth of the apostles and the spirit of the prophets (Eph.2:20; 3:5). They are both necessary if a disciple is to lay a foundation of faith and worship, upon spirit and truth (John4:24). The apostles and prophets who produce spiritual food sourced in the spirit and truth from Christ (John15:4-5,8,16;Rev.22:1-2), are the "chief princes"/foundation stones. They are aligned with the cornerstone, and provide a basis upon which the living stones of the Temple of God, rest.

      3. Who is The "Great Prince" ("arch-angel") mentioned at Dan.12:1?
      Dan.12:1 reads; “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

      [Before I go into Part 3: The Great Prince; I would like to offer additional information on other points made by Dan.12:1. 
      First, the unprecedented "time of distress". Here is a link to start off the information about the Great Tribulation (Matt.24:21)

      Second, the Book of the Lamb, within which the names of the delivered, are written (Rev.13:8; 21:27; 3:5; 17:8; 20:15,12)

      (TO BE CONTINUED)
      Pearl Doxsey – “WHO ARE THE CHIEF PRINCES?”
      4womaninthewilderness
    • By Diakonos
      One thing that has always puzzled me is this: what happened to the spirit creature Michael when Jesus was conceived/born as a human? We are told that Jehovah transferred Michael's life pattern into Jesus in much the same way as God will do for those who are resurrected. This would mean that when Jesus was alive on earth there was no Michael in heaven. As we do not believe that humans have a spirit, in the accepted sense of the word, the question remains, what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?
    • By Jesus.defender
      BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY

      Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages.
      Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity.
      Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity:
      1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

      Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people
      Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it.

      Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead.
      This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say:
      i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’
      ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings.
      iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person.
      What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.
      Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name.
      He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the
      article (tou):
      Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
      Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are:
      i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27.
      The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God.
      ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22)
      ‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead.

      iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7).
      iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5).

      Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead.
      2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah.
      JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This
      shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that:

      i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT);
      ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33).
      iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT)
      iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24)
      Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth.
      This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’).
      Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one.
       
      3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT).
       
      JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God.
      II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’

      How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead.
      4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’
      Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the
      outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript.
      Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are
      corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806).

      5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity
      none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’?

      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14)
      ‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19
    • By Jesus.defender
      Isaiah 9:6 - Is Jesus ‘a Mighty God’ or ‘Jehovah God’?

      ‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God (410), the Everlasting
      Father, the Prince of Peace’.
      Watchtower teaching: JWs concede that Jesus is a ‘mighty God’, but they are adamant that
      He is not Almighty God as Jehovah is. They think that Christ is one of lesser gods.
      Bible teaching: The Bible shows that both Jesus and Jehovah are called ‘Mighty God’.
      Jehovah is called ‘Mighty God’ in:
      a) ‘The remnant of Israel . . . shall stay upon Jehovah, the remnant of Jacob shall return . .
      unto the mighty God (410)’. (Isaiah 10:20,21).
      b) ‘the Great, the Mighty God (410), Jehovah of hosts, is his name’. (Jeremiah 32:18).
      Because Jehovah and Jesus are both called ‘Mighty God’, this proves Christ’s equality with
      God the Father.
      Ask: Since Jehovah is called ‘Mighty God’ (Isaiah 10:21) just as Jesus is called ‘Mighty
      God’ (Isaiah 9:6), doesn’t this mean that the Watchtower is wrong in saying that ‘Mighty
      God’ means a lesser deity?
      Ask: If both Jesus and Jehovah are ‘Mighty God’, then what does this tell you about Jesus’
      divine nature?
      Ask: If both Jesus and Jehovah are equally ‘Mighty God’, then isn’t this two members of
      the Trinity?
      Note: There is only one Mighty God in heaven:
      a) ‘I am the first and I am the last; beside me there is no God (430)’. (Isaiah 44:6b)
      b) ‘Is there a God (433) besides Me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any’.(Isaiah 44:8b).
      c) ‘I am the Lord (YHWH), and there is none else,there is no God beside me’(Isaiah 45:5a)
      The NWT translates John 1:1 as ‘the word was a god’.
      Isaiah 44:8b shows this to be false by denying the existence of ‘a god’ other than Jehovah.
      The phrase ‘Mighty God’ is ‘Elohim’ in Hebrew, meaning ‘Fullness of power’, portraying
      Christ as the ‘powerful Governor of the universe’.
      Notice that ‘Elohim (430)’ is also used to describe Jehovah God as:
      i) ‘The God (430) of the whole earth’. (Isaiah 54:5)
      ii) ‘The God (430) of all flesh’. (Jeremiah 32:27)
      iii) ‘I prayed to the God (430) of heaven’. (Nehemiah 2:4)
      iv) ‘For the Lord (YHWH) your God (430) is God (430) of gods....a great God.’(Deut 10:17)
      In Isaiah 40:3 Jesus is called both Jehovah (3068) and Elohim (430) in the same verse:
      ‘Prepare ye the way of the Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God (430)’.
      Mark 1:3 and John 1:23 apply Jehovah here to Jesus.
      Question: What is meant by calling Jesus ‘Everlasting Father’?
      Since Jesus is not the Father, why does Isaiah call Jesus ‘Everlasting Father’?
      Answer: Jesus considers the Father as someone other than Himself over 200 times in the NT.
      ‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6 means ‘Father of eternity’.
    • By Jesus.defender
      JEHOVAH’S NAME or JESUS CHRIST’S NAME.

      The Watchtower teaches that God’s true Name is Jehovah. They teach that:
      ‘Sometime during the second or third Century CE, the scribes removed the tetragrammaton (JHWH) from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with κυριος (Lord) or θεος (God)’. Reference Edition of NWT, 1984, p 1564.
      The Watchtower’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT) proves that Jesus is Jehovah God.
      On page 10,11 of the 1985 KIT, under the heading ‘Restoring the Divine Name, Jehovah’ we read: ‘the evidence (what evidence?) is that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with (no proof) . . . Sometime during the second or third centuries CE, the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was eliminated from the Greek texts by copyists (no proof).
      Instead of YHWH they substituted the words Kurios (‘Lord’) and Theos (‘God’).’
      Note: This is a lie. There is no historical or manuscript evidence or evidence of protest to support this claim. Somebody would have protested such a change.No one did. It never happened.
      The New World Translation (NWT) is the JW perversion of the Bible made to support their false doctrines. It inserts the name ‘Jehovah’ in the New Testament in the place of God (θεος=theos) or Lord (κυριος =kurios) on 237 occasions, where they believe it refers to God the
      Father. They often refer to Hebrew translations of the NT to see where this has been done.
      These are footnoted as J1 to J27. Their dishonesty and deceit is shown by their failure to translate these words as ‘Jehovah’ when it refers to Christ. (eg: Philippians 2:11; Hebrews 1:10).
      JWs say that the proper use of God’s ‘correct’ name (Jehovah) is absolutely essential to one’s salvation. They quote from their NWT: 
      ‘Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.’ Romans 10:13 (NWT).
      ‘People will have to know that I am Jehovah.’ Ezekiel 39:6 (NWT).
      JWs believe that because they are the only group who refer to God by His ‘true’ name, Jehovah, they are the only true followers of God.
      Their claim is false for these reasons:
      1) Jehovah is not a Biblical term. It is a man-made term. The Old Testament has YHWH because the original Hebrew only had consonants. Jews feared taking God’s name in vain, so when they publicly read YHWH, they would pronounce it ‘Adonai’ (Lord).
      Later they inserted the vowels from Adonai (a-o-a) into the consonants YHWH to give YAHOWAH, which became Jehovah. Hence, the word Jehovah comes from a consonantvowel
      combination from YHWH and Adonai.
      2) No-one knows for sure the original correct pronunciation of YHWH. Hence we cannot insist on ‘Jehovah’ as being correct.
      3) Jesus never addressed the Father as Jehovah in the New Testament. If JWs are correct that God must be always called Jehovah, then Jesus was sinning by not calling God ‘Jehovah’. When the NWT puts Jehovah in Jesus’ mouth in the NT, it contradicts all the NT manuscripts which don’t have it.
      QUESTION: Since Jesus never in the NT addressed the Father as Jehovah, why should we?
      4) Jesus and the Apostle Paul tell us to address God as ‘Father’:
      a) Jesus taught us to pray to God as ‘Our Father’, not ‘Our Jehovah’: ‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father.....’ (Matthew 6:9).
      b) Jesus addressed God as Father in His own prayers:
      ‘I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth’. (Matthew 11:25).
      ‘O my Father, if it be possible.......’ (Matthew 26:39,42).
      ‘He said, Abba, Father.......’ (Mark 14:36).
      ‘ I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven.......’ (Luke 10:21).
      ‘Saying, Father, if thou be willing.......’ (Luke 22:42).
      ‘Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them;.......’ (Luke 23:34).
      ‘Father, the hour is come......’ (John 17:1).
      c) Paul said, ‘we cry, Abba, Father.’ (Romans 8:15).
      d) The Holy Spirit through Paul said, ‘God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father’. (Galatians 4:6).
      Here the Holy Spirit of God tells us to call God ‘Abba, Father’, not ‘Jehovah’
      QUESTION: If Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Paul all address God as Father nine times (and never as Jehovah) then shouldn’t we call God ‘Father’?
      5) No Ancient NT manuscripts contain the tetragram (YHWH) to translate as Jehovah.
      The Church writers before 325 AD only mention Jehovah once in passing. JWs tell us that most Bible versions deceive people because they omit Jehovah as God’s Name, so
      the JWs dishonestly add the word ‘Jehovah’ to the NT text, even though it is not in any NT Greek manuscript, ancient version, papyri or lectionary.
      The WT’s claim that ‘Jehovah’ as God’s name was removed from the NT by superstitious scribes, is a total lie with no supporting historical or manuscript evidence.
      6) Whose Name did the early Christians identify themselves with? Was it Jehovah or was it Jesus Christ? Always Jesus Christ, never Jehovah.
      Who knows more, the Apostles or modern JWs? Consider these examples:
      a) The Apostles never used the name ‘Jehovah’.
      b) The Apostles and first century Christians were never called ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’. ‘The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.’ (Acts 11:26).
      c) There is no proof that Jesus or his disciples ever pronounced the tetragram YHWH. 
      JWs claim that when Jesus read from Isaiah 61:1 ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me....’ as quoted in Luke 4:18,19, that Jesus pronounced the word ‘YHWH’.
      This is most unlikely. JWs assume that the religious leaders endorsing Christ’s ‘gracious words’ in verse 22 was because He uttered the name YHWH?
      Historical records in the Mishnah, from Josephus, and from other sources show the Jews were loathe to allow the name YHWH to be used. The Jews would not have tolerated it being used by anybody but the High Priest.Jesus would have read ‘Adonai’
      7) 119 Bible passages referring to Jehovah, are quoted and applied to Christ in the New Testament (Proof Available)
      QUESTION: In view of 119 Bible verses applying ‘Jehovah’ to Christ in the NT, what does this tell you about who Christ is?
      ? The New Testament tells us to name the name of Jesus Christ, not the name of Jehovah. Consider these examples:
      1. ‘Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.’(II Timothy 2:19)
      2. ‘I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .’ (I Cor 1:10)
      3. ‘Ye are washed,....sanctified,... justified in the name of the Lord Jesus ’ (I Cor 6:11)
      4. ‘Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.’ (Col 3:17)
      5. ‘That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you....’ (II Thess 1:12)
      6. ‘Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves.....’ (II Thess. 3:6)
      7. ‘all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.’ (I Corinthians 1:2)
      8. ‘Thou holdest fast my name....’ Jesus said to the Pergamos church. (Revelation 2:13).
      JWs have not held fast Christ’s name, nor have they called upon Christ’s name, nor do they name the name of Christ, nor is Jesus Christ precious to them, because they do not have saving belief in Him. ‘Unto you . . . which believe He is precious’.(I Peter 2:7).
      QUESTION: Where does the NT tell us to name the name of Jehovah?
      9) The New Testament always lifts up Jesus Christ’s name, not Jehovah’s name. Why?
      Because Jesus Christ is Jehovah God on earth. Christ is 100% God and 100% man.
      Q1: In whose name should we meet together?
      ‘Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.’ (Matthew 18:20)
      Q2: Demons were cast out by the authority of whose name?
      ‘Paul.....said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ (Acts 16:18)
      Q3: In whose name should we preach repentance and forgiveness of sins? ‘And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations. And ye are witnesses of these things.’ (Luke 24:47,48)
      Q4: In whose name are we to believe and receive forgiveness of sins? ‘....through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.’ (Acts 10:43, John 1:12)
      Q5: By whose name, and no other, do we obtain salvation? Acts 4:10,12 says: ‘by the name of Jesus Christ ... Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.’
      Q6: In whose name should we pray? John 16:23,24; 14:13,14; 15:16 says: ‘Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.’
      Q7: In whose name is the Holy Spirit sent?
      ‘But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name......’ (John 14:26)
      Q8: In whose name and authority did the disciples heal the sick?
      ‘His name through faith in his name hath made this man strong’ (Acts 3:16; 4:30)
      Q9: Whose name did Paul say that we are to call upon?
      ‘ all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.’ (I Cor 1:2)
      Q10: Whose name is above every name?
      ‘God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name .... that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.’(Phil 2:9-11)
      Paul’s quote about Christ is from Isaiah 45:22-24 where every knee will bow to Jehovah. What is true about Jehovah, is also true of Christ, the Lord of all mankind
      Q11: According to Acts 1:8, of whom are we to be witnesses?
      ‘Ye shall be witnesses unto me (Jesus)’
      Q12: In whose name were believers baptized?
      ‘they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus’. (Acts 8:16; 2:38)
      Q13: In whose name were believers designated?
      ‘the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch’. (Acts 11:26)
      Q14: In whose name did the apostles speak?
      ‘Commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus’ Acts 4:17,18
      Q15: In whose name did early Christians suffer? Acts 15:26 says:
      ‘Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ ‘rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name’Acts 5:41;9:16
      Q16: Whose name was Paul to carry?
      ‘Lord said: He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.’ (Acts 9:15)
      Q17: In whose name did Paul deliver a man to Satan?
      ‘In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...to deliver such an one to Satan.’ I Cor 5:4,5
      Q18: In whose name did the apostles teach? Acts 5:28; 8:12 says:
      ‘Did we not straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name?’
      10) Why does WT break their own rule (where the OT speaks of Jehovah), that they do not insert Jehovah in the NT, when the quote clearly refers to Christ?
      Peter quotes from Joel 2:32 (spoken of Jehovah) and applies it to Jesus in Acts 2:21 and 38.
      Calling on the name of Jehovah for salvation equals repenting and being baptised in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of sins.
      Conclusion: Jesus shares the nature of His Father and His Name. The absence of YHWH in any NT manuscript demolishes the WT case of introducing the word ‘Jehovah’ into the NT.
      Question: If God was so concerned about preserving His covenant name, why did the apostles not preserve it in their writings?
      Question: To imply that the name ‘Jehovah’ is the main name of God that we are to use, contradicts the continued NT use of the name ‘Jesus’ on 900 occasions, while the tetragram YHWH is used nowhere in the NT.
      QUESTION: Why does the WT not translate ‘Jehovah’ into Hebrews 1:10, I Peter 3:15 andPhilippians 2:11, when the OT passages from which these are quoted refer to YHWH?

      We are to make the name of the Father known as Jesus emphasized (Matthew 6:9; John 17:26). How do we do it? By recognizing that Jesus Christ was chosen by the Father to embody all the glory and important reputation of that Name.
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      CHRIST’S BODILY RESURRECTION ‘I have power to take it again’Jn 10:18
      Watchtower Teaching: ‘Jesus was raised to life as an invisible spirit. He did not take up again that body in which he had been killed . . .’ ‘Let your Name be sanctified.’ (p.266).
      The Watchtower teaches that Jesus’ body was disposed of by God.
      The NWT mistranslates I Peter 3:18 as ‘being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’ to teach merely a spiritual resurrection of Christ.
      Bible Teaching: I Peter 3:18 refers to when Christ died. His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison (v. 19,20). After three days, Christ’s physical body was raised.
      I Peter 3:18 (KJV) correctly reads: ‘being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.’
      Which Scriptures best teach Christ’s bodily resurrection?
      1. ‘They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.’ (v.37) He said unto them, ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.’ (Luke 24:37, 39)
      Notice that the resurrected Christ says here that:
      (1) He is not a spirit;
      (2) His resurrection body has flesh and bones;
      (3) His physical hands and feet are proof of His physical resurrection;
      Jesus is trying to convince them that He, ‘I myself’ has a permanent physical body which still had the nail scars in His hands and feet. This is opposite to the WT teaching that Christ’s body was disposed of and that He became only a spirit. If the WT claim was correct, then
      Jesus would be deceiving the disciples here in showing them His body.
      2. ‘Then saith he to Thomas, . . . reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.’ (John 20:27)
      Here Jesus says that He has a physical side that He challenges Thomas to touch.
      3. ‘Neither did his flesh see corruption.’ - Acts 2:30,31
      Notice the following:
      a) God promised David that ‘according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ’ to sit on his throne.’ (v.30). This is a bodily resurrection of Christ, not spiritual. The NWT omits this because of its corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text. Well over 38 manuscripts have it.
      b) ‘neither did his flesh see corruption’ (v.31) means that Christ’s body did not decay.
      Why? Because Jesus was raised from the dead in a material, fleshly body.
      4. ‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21
      ‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21)
      Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days.
      Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection.
      5. Christ promises to eat of the fruit of the vine in the Kingdom. Only a body can eat.
      ‘I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come.’(Luke 22:18)
      Jesus here showed that his resurrected body would be able to eat and drink even in the Kingdom of God. Notice that a non-material spirit cannot eat and drink. Jesus promised the disciples in Luke 22:30 ‘that ye may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom.’
      Question: If Jesus expected to become an immaterial spirit, why would He promise the disciples that they would eat and drink with Christ at His table in His Kingdom?
      6. Christ ate a broiled fish and a honeycomb in front of them. Luke 24:41,42.
      7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11
      As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised.
      8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it?
      9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4
      A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming.
      10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6
      Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed?
      11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17
      Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature:
      a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44)
      b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven.
      They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body.
      Bible Teaching:
      a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual
      body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body.
      It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh.
      There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body.
      Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body.
      He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body.
      QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44.
      b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound
      humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom.
      c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53
      Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us.
      Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality),
      not taking away something from humanity (our material body)?
      Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37).
      For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.
       
    • By The Librarian
      Is there more than one acceptable way of treating the remains of the dead?
      Source
    • By Cos
      One of the most striking features of the teachings of Jesus is that He was constantly talking about Himself. And to enter into the Kingdom depends on how we respond to Him personally; He even called the Kingdom of God “my Kingdom”.

       

      This self teaching of Jesus is one of the first things that set Jesus apart from the other religious teachers of the world. Jesus points people to Himself saying “I am the truth; follow me” No other founder of the world religions would dare say such a thing and expect to be taken seriously.

       

      The personal pronouns that Jesus uses force us to pay attention.

       

      "I am the bread of life…” (John 6:35)

       

      "I am the light of the world…" (John 8:12)

       

      "I am the resurrection and the life…”  (John 11:25)

       

      The great question on Jesus’ teachings about Himself leads to Him asking, “Who do you say that I am?” (Matt. 16:15).

       

      Jesus had such a strong opinion of Himself, it is not surprise that he should call people to Himself, “Come to me” and “Follow me”.

       

      Jesus offered Himself as someone in whom His contemporaries should put their faith in and to whom they should offer their love to. People are to believe in God – Jesus urged them that to have eternal life people are to believe in Him (John 3:36).

       

      So when we look at the biblical evidence for the true Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ one cannot help noticing Jesus’ own self-consciousness witness of Himself, in other words, His self-understanding…what did Jesus think and believe about Himself?

       

      Let’s have a look at what Jesus says about Himself and whether what He says reflects a consciousness of being Deity?

       

      Keep in mind that what follows is NOT an exhaustive study, but just a brief expose of the topic.

       

      In Mark 2:5-10 we read: “When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’ Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, ‘Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’  Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, ‘Why are you thinking these things?  Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'?  But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins....’"

       

      When the paralytic was lowered through the roof by his four friends, Jesus did not respond with a comment about the man’s physical condition or his need of healing. Rather, his initial comment was, “your sins are forgiven”. The reaction of the scribes indicates the meaning they attached to his words: "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

       

      What we have is a strong statement of divine authority, and the context shows that it was a blasphemous assertion IF HE WAS NOT GOD! Notice that He does not answer their charges with a "Hold on now! I am not claiming to be God! I am claiming something less!"--not at all!

       

      The reaction of the Jews shows that they interpreted Jesus’ words that He was exercising the prerogative that belong to God alone (see Isa, 43:25). Here was an excellent opportunity for Jesus to correct the scribes if they had misunderstood the significance of His words. Note that He did not. In fact His response is highly enlightening for He goes on to claims that He has that prerogative of God, notice also how Jesus knew their thoughts; only God can know the thoughts of men (Acts 15:8; 2 Chron. 6:29; 1 Kings 8:38). More can be said but I’ll leave that for another time. <><
       
       
       
       
       
    • Guest Nicole
    • By Brother Rando
      The Memorial of Christ is not the Last Supper that the world continues to celebrate. The Last Supper can also be rendered the Last Passover Meal. The Jewish Day began at Sunset.  Since the Sun sets at various times, the Passover Supper would begin after the Sun disappeared from the Horizon with darkness setting in. The Last Passover Meal was Nisan 14th, 33 CE with the abolishment of the Old Covenant.
      When evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples. ?While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to you, one of you will betray me.” (Matthew 26:20-21)   The event that concluded the Last Passover Meal was the dismissal of an unfaithful apostle.  Jesus answered: “It is the one to whom I will give the piece of bread that I dip.” So after dipping the bread, he took it and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. ?After Judas took the piece of bread, then Satan entered into him. So Jesus said to him: “What you are doing, do it more quickly.”  (John 13:26-28)  “So after he received the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night.” (John 13:30)
      After dismissing the betrayer from the midst of the Faithful Disciples, Jesus instituted a new teaching for His Faithful Followers.  Notice, the whole world wasn’t invited, but those who proved to be faithful and trustworthy up to this point.  Since the founding of the Christian Congregation on Pentecost 33 CE, Christians have been commemorating the death of Jesus Christ every Nisan 14th.  With one simple command,  his faithful sheep “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19)
      Please join us for the annual observance of the death of Jesus Christ. This year it will be held on Saturday, March 31.   Search for your Language and Place.
       
    • Guest Nicole
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Referring to those cities that would not listen to the message, Jesus said that on the Day of Judgment he would be more bearable to Sodom and Gomorrah than to them - Matt. 10:14, 15; Matthew 11: 20-24

      Before saying that he used a hyperbole, we would think about another writing.
      Matthew 12:36 says, "I tell you that any unprofitable word that men will say will account in the Day of Judgment."
      If we only read what has been written without seeking articulated interpretations, it is well understood that "they have said" is in the past, referring of course to what has been said in this life and not what they could have said in the future (in fact, Jesus he is condemning the Pharisees who have just asserted that He drives out demons by Beelzebub).
      Let's think about one last writing.
      In 2 Timothy 4:14, the Apostle Paul said, "  Alexander the coppersmith did me a great deal of harm. Jehovah will repay him according to his deeds "
      Jehovah would have repay his works when?
      Before his death, that is in the first century?
      Did Jehovah perhaps intervened to punish all persecutors of Christians in the first century?
      Is it not clear that the Apostle Paul is saying that Jehovah would remember the actions of this Alexander on the Day of Judgment?

      The fundamental question is therefore the following:

      We are certain that when the apostle Paul spoke the words in Romans 6: 7, he meant what we believe he understood?
       
    • By The Librarian
      See main topic:
      The name "Jesus" has a long, long history. The origin of this name is the Hebrew name ????? (yehoshu'a, Strong's #3091 [Latinized as Joshua]), which means "Yahweh saves." This Hebrew name is first used Exodus 17:9 where we are introduced to Yehoshu'a Ben Nun. When this Hebrew name was transliterated in the Greek Septuagint (2,000 year old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) it was written as ?????? (iesous). The Greek alphabet had no "Y" sound, so it used the "I" sound. The Greek alphabet has no consonant "H," or equivalent, so this sound is dropped. The Greek alphabet also had no "Sh" sound, so it used the "S" sound. Then, Greek male names end with "s," so the "s" was added. And this is how ????? (yehoshu'a) became ?????? (iesous) in the Greek. It is common for names to shift and evolve when transferred from one culture to another. For instance, the German name Ludwig is Louis in France and the Spanish name Juan is John in English speaking countries. The Hebrew name ????? (yehoshu'a, Strong's #3091) is ???? (yeshu'a, Strong's #3442 [Latinized as Jeshua]) in the Aramaic language, such as we see in Ezra 2:2. When this Aramaic name was transliterated in the Greek Septuagint, they used the same method as stated above and it comes out to ?????? (iesous), the same as it did for yehoshu'a. When we come to the New Testament period we find that the name of the Messiah is ?????? (iesous) in the Greek New Testament, but we find that it is ???? (yeshu'a) in the Aramaic New Testament. When the Greek New Testament was translated into Latin in the 4th Century this name was written as Iesus, an exact match to the Greek that it came from. The Latin letter "I" split into two letters, "I" and "J." Originally this was two different ways of writing the same letter. So the Iesus became Jesus, but they were both pronounced the same way. Years later, some cultures began using the "I" for the vowel sound and "J" for a "Y" sound. It was not until around 1500 AD that the letter J took on the "dg" sound we are familiar with today. So, the modern name "Jesus" comes from the Latin Iesus, which comes from the Greek Iesous, which comes from the Aramaic Yeshu'a and the Hebrew Yehoshu'a.
    • By Bible Speaks
      What did Jesus look like? ~ ?
      Today the misrepresentation of Jesus continues. Most people picture Jesus as a babe in a manger or as a tragic figure nailed to a cross, with his face distorted in agony under a crown of thorns. 
      Christendom’s clergy have encouraged such views. They have failed to present Jesus as the mighty heavenly King with whom nations will have an accounting. 
      When human rulers confront the exalted Jesus in the near future, they will have to deal with a Messiah who has ‘all authority in heaven and on the earth’!—Matthew 28:18. - Bible Speaks
      Hand painted beautiful portrait here. Thank you 

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    • Question: What is a TV show that ruined the lives of many people in general? If we are actually talking about shows that have ruined tens of thousands of lives then there’s no way to avoid bringing up televangelists. These individuals have had people so desperate to help, to healed or to be “saved” that they have: Drained their pensions and retirement accounts Mortgaged their homes Liquidated their assets Borrowed money from family, friends and even financial institutions. Gone without food and medication Some of the worst offenders are: This Is Your Day - Benny Hinn Hinn has been controversial for decades and is only now receiving the scrutiny from the Internal Revenue Service and the Postal Inspectors that he’s deserved for years. Your World With Creflo Dollar - Creflo Dollar A Georgia-based pastor who actually begged his followers for a $65 million private jet to help him “minister to the faithful”. Believer’s Voice of Victory - Kenneth Copeland Basically instructs people NOT to seek medical assistance, and states that prayer will help them overcome illnesses. Enjoy Everyday Life - Joyce Meyer Has been under investigation for many years for possible misuse of collected funds. Has been on air for nearly 30 years and has collected tens of millions of dollars during that time. Paula White Today - Paula White Both White, and her ex-husband Randy White, take in millions of dollars annually and have been under scrutiny by tax officials for decades. The Whites are actually one of the most subdued of televangelists, although they are also some of the most successful. Frankly, so many people have given, and will give, their money to these individuals that they easily are among the worst predators ever to be aired on American television.
    • Would this mean supernatural babies would not have received judgment because they are babies? Babies that turned into giants that caused the deaths of countless humans, including babies by a power given to them, they shouldn’t have received? Does everyone that possess the Holy Spirit have the ability for prophecy? No! That is made by design by God. 2 Peter 1:20-21, Romans 12:6 It would be unusual for a witness to be distinct to such honor and speak of prophecy as though it was relayed directly from God to that individual. Countering the written words of Paul. God gives that privilege, it is not taken by man. John 3:31-35 With that said, faithful witnesses should understand the meticulous groundwork that Pastor Russell laid-out for everyone to see. There are 2 instances within scripture of 1260. Revelation and Daniel. What witnesses shouldn’t do is project their independent understanding of prophecy, when they are not given that power of prophecy by God. However, I have seen where some people use genesis and Ezekiel as a reference guide. Therefore, there is no contradiction to Paul's words since the understanding of being enthroned in 1914 versus having taken control are two separate issues. Then, AD 1914 stands on its own Biblical merit.
    • I have a better idea, big boy. You write a letter—that way I do not have to—and ask about the specific reasons that Tim Cook was made part of the Governing Body. Specify that you want details.. Do not settle for “he was a pioneer for so many years, then a missionary, then a Bethel servant.”  No. Ask about specific praiseworthy deeds, abilities, or accomplishments that made the others think: “We have to get this guy on the GB!”  How bout it, sport? Write that letter. Make it certified. Send a copy to the BOE. Send a copy here, even, so that we can all see the answer. Hold their feet to the fire! My guess is that you will not get anything more than the generic, and you may not get even that. Instead, you may get references to verse like 2 Corinthians 10:12  For we do not dare to class ourselves among some or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. Certainly they in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves with themselves have no understanding. or there might even be counsel not to fall into the pattern of “admiring personalities.” (Jude 16) When you get this reply, fire off another letter to them about how as MEN of HONOR, they owe it to you to SPILL when you say SPILL. Remind them of their scriptural obligation to TRUTHFULLY answer anyone who asks a question. Tell them that since you are asking them about good things, and not bad things, there is NO REASON for them not to oblige you.  The reason that they still will not satisfy you is that they are not into honoring persons. It is very hard to get the laudable specifics about any individual. They view humans, even themselves, as placeholders used by God, and when this or that is accomplished, credit goes to Jehovah, not the GB character or helper or branch servant who dreamed it up or got the job done. You have only to watch Sam Herd giving the Gilead talk in the most recent broadcast, shaking his jowls like Nixon, parodying those slobbering over the “Govnin Body” —a skit that I am still trying to get down pat for imitation—before he says it’s not any of them doing anything—you could do the same were you in their place—but it is Jehovah who should get all credit. They are not into zeroing in on the accomplishments of humans. Humans are placeholders. The good things they do are attributed to Jehovah, the bad things to human imperfection. I doubt you will get specifics for either.  Be a sport, JTR. Give it a go. Save me a stamp.  
    • Wouldn't a core doctrine be one in which we put "unwavering" faith. This is the whole reason I mention "core" or "key" doctrines. If we were to be killed unless we publicly renounced our faith in Jehovah God as the Creator, and Jesus Christ as the one through whom the Ransom comes, we should be willing to die for that doctrine. I would not be willing to die over my certainty that Jesus was only using hyperbole when he said that the men of Sodom would do better in a resurrection of the unrighteous on Judgment Day, than persons in towns that rejected Jesus during his earthly ministry. (Only the most diabolical of inquisitors would ask such a question anyway. I think I would go for "theocratic war strategy. 😉 )
    • I like that. It's an excellent explanation of one of the points made in the day's text and commentary. Perhaps. And so were all the 1 year old babies destroyed in the Flood. And so were the 185,000 of Senacherib's troops. I used that one because it's one for which most of us would be the least surprised if we discovered that the WT changed the teaching again.  Not sure what you mean. I already believe that the primary core doctrine is God's value through his Son's ransom sacrifice. Other doctrines are also just as necessary, though.  There actually is a contradiction between the Bible and AD 1914. And we don't need any independent understanding not supported by Scripture, such as the independent understanding of John Aquila Brown, or more specifically, that of Nelson H Barbour, neither of which were supported by Scripture. It should ALWAYS be the exploit of any faithful Witness to uncover truth and try to resolve any contradictions that can be resolved by Scripture itself, not anything independent of Scriptural support.  On the matter of the 1914 doctrine, an easier explanation with human controversy --but no scriptural controversy-- has already been posted. Easier isn't proof that it's better, but it's definitely easier. Here it is: Jesus came to earth to preach about a God's Kingdom through Christ and give himself over to death as a perfect ransom for sin, to fulfill the Law, and SIT AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND and therefore RULES AS KING since the time of his resurrection in 33 CE. That's it. Simple. No contradictions with any Scripture. From that point on, in 33 CE he SITS AT GOD'S RIGHT HAND and therefore RULES AS KING ruling in the midst of enemies, including war, famine, sickness, and will continue ruling as king until God has put all enemies under his feet, including the last enemy: death.  The current belief in 1914 creates a contradiction with this very point, because we are currently forced to ignore 1 Cor 15:25, which indicates that "sitting at God's right hand" is the same as "ruling as King." Right now, our current teaching is that Jesus sat at God's right hand in 33, and THEN LATER began ruling as king in 1914. Paul says that Jesus began ruling as king WHEN he sat at God's right hand. I'm swapping them because they mean exactly the same thing to me. No difference. Doctrine means teaching. True but notice the words that Paul used instead of "sit at my right hand" here: (1 Corinthians 15:25) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. Turns out that when a king sits on a throne, this is actually an expression meaning rule as king. Just like when we say that a man "sat on the throne" starting in AD 1066, for example. Turns out that a king does not have to stand up from a throne to begin ruling as king. Turns out that sitting on a throne is not a synonym for just waiting around. By that logic, Jesus is not even NOW ruling as king, because God has not yet put the last enemy Death beneath his feet. (1 Corinthians 15:25,26) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
    • If only you would stop quoting outside sources, and just be more basic with your comments, then i may understand them . Yes I understand 'if your throw out all the good, only the bad is left.  But the reverse is, if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  
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