Stake or Cross? How did Jesus die? What proof do we have?

[JOHN BUTLER]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I suppose you are referring to the fact that most Witnesses think that "spirit-directed organization" refers to the idea that the persons responsible for directing the WT organization would therefore have a greater measure of Jehovah's holy spirit, or at least a special measure of holy spirit specifically for the work of guiding and directing what counts as "spiritual food."

*** wp17 No. 1 p. 15 Is It Just a Small Misunderstanding? ***

• The holy spirit also moves more knowledgeable Christians to come to the aid of those seeking greater understanding.—Acts 8:26-35.

*** w17 February p. 24 par. 5, 10-14 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***

• Christians in the first century recognized that the governing body was directed by Jehovah God through their Leader, Jesus. How could they be sure of this? First, holy spirit empowered the governing body. (John 16:13) Holy spirit was poured out on all anointed Christians, but it specifically enabled the apostles and other elders in Jerusalem to fulfill their role as overseers. For example, in 49 C.E., holy spirit guided the governing body . . . .  In 1919, three years after Brother Russell’s death, Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave.” For what purpose? To give his domestics “food at the proper time.” (Matt. 24:45) Even in those early years, a small group of anointed brothers who served at headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, prepared and distributed spiritual food to Jesus’ followers. . . . .  the Governing Body to focus on providing spiritual instruction and direction.
• Evidence of holy spirit. The holy spirit has helped the Governing Body to grasp Scriptural truths not previously understood. . . .  Surely, no human deserves credit for discovering and explaining these “deep things of God”! The Governing Body echoes the apostle Paul, who wrote: “These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit.” . . . . can anything other than holy spirit explain the rapid increase in spiritual understanding since 1919?
• Evidence of angelic assistance. The Governing Body today has the colossal task of overseeing an international preaching work involving over eight million evangelizers. Why has that work been so successful? For one, angels are involved.

What I think that many persons might find confusing here is that the article specifically used examples of how wrong we have been in the past as proof of the direction of holy spirit, otherwise how would the Governing Body have been able to make so many changes to its own false doctrines. The same article included these words:

• The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. So how can we answer Jesus’ question: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” (Matt. 24:45) What evidence is there that the Governing Body is filling that role? Let us consider the same three factors that directed the governing body in the first century.
• 13 Evidence of holy spirit. The holy spirit has helped the Governing Body to grasp Scriptural truths not previously understood. For example, reflect on the list of beliefs clarified that was referred to in the preceding paragraph. Surely, no human deserves credit for discovering and explaining these “deep things of God”!

I think the biggest source of confusion is the contradiction between the idea that we don't yet have perfect knowledge and yet Jesus promised his disciples:

• (John 15:26-16:13) 26 When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; 27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. . . . . For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. . . .  13 However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.

The contradiction is pretty obvious:

• The Governing Body claims to be directed by holy spirit;
• The holy spirit was supposed to guide Christians into all the truth when it was poured out in 33 CE after Jesus was no longer present;
• The Governing Body admits to a long list of errors going back over 100 years;
• Many of these new errors and false doctrines were introduced after Jesus was supposed to be present again in 1914.

The Second Adventists (and Seventh Day Adventist branch) resolved the issue by calling their false doctrines "Present Truth." If doctrines were found to be false and therefore changed, then the new doctrines were "present truth" and those past false doctrines were "present truth" at the time, even if time proved them to actually be false. Clever! It was based on a mistranslation/misinterpretation of 2 Peter 1:12. But in the tradition of Second Adventists, we (Bible Students/JWs) also needed to adopt the same solution, especially because we were promoting pieces of a chronology that was continually being proven false. For many years, the Watchtower used 2 Peter 1:12 to defend the idea of "present truth." We now admit that it was based on a mistranslation/misinterpretation. But it remained in Watchtower vocabulary for many years. At one time the doctrine has been so important it was capitalized.

*** w52 4/1 p. 219 An International Assembly in Rome ***

• those who had already come to the truth must keep up with present truth. They must appreciate what the Lord provides through his organization and study diligently.

*** yb88 p. 139 Korea ***

• The Watch Tower of August 15, 1914, printed a fascinating letter addressed to Brother Russell, stating: “I am a stranger to you in one sense; but I came to a knowledge of Present Truth through your writings just twenty-two months ago. For some time I have been anxious to write and tell you of my special appreciation of the Truth, but circumstances did not permit until now.

The real solution, I think, is found in Jesus' words about what the "spirit of truth" would lead them to. Truth is not the same as "accurate knowledge." Jesus said it would focus on three things: the truth about sin, righteousness and judgment:

• (John 16:7-11) . . .For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. 8 And when that one comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 first concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

For other things, like this issue of cross vs stake, we should have absolutely no problem telling the truth about it. The truth is that we cannot be dogmatic. The truth is that we don't really have proof one way or another. It is NOT the truth to say that "Jesus was therefore executed on a single upright stake." But the truth is very accessible. All we have to do is say that, based on current evidence, Jesus may have been executed on a single upright stake, but there is also evidence that he may have been executed on a dual-beamed cross. It appears that both of these methods, and many others, could fall within the meaning of the term "stauros" found in the Scriptures.

So we have no reason to believe that holy spirit has not already led Christians "into all the truth." We even know the truth about cross versus stake.

Well it is certainly true that if you spin a long enough yarn some people might believe you.

I for one don't. 

You have written much that in real terms says little.  Let us put it simply. 

The GB are supposed to be of the Anointed. There are of course many more Anointed but the GB, those 8 men, pretend to be superior.

The GB pretend to be the 'Faithful and Discreet slave'.  Matthew 24 v 45.

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 

Or Luke 12 v 42

⁴²  And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?

(The Luke scripture say s much more. )

So if your GB were who they say they are, they would indeed have a very special relationship with Jesus Christ and God.

Jesus in now 'basically' in charge, having received authority from God, so the GB would be receiving special spiritual guidance from Jesus. .. Jesus is not going to give false information or tell lies. So it is obvious that the 'food' the  GB are giving out is not from Jesus Christ or from God Himself. 

You have said that Truth is not the same as Accurate Knowledge... I would say that truth can only come from accurate knowledge. 

And why would Jesus give inaccurate knowledge anyway ? 

The proof is there for all to see. The GB are fake prophets. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Quote : So what does it matter if more evidence might come to light that indicates that the "stauros" was actually a two-beamed cross as depicted in traditional pictures?

What matters is that JW's seem to believe everything the GB say and do, so the GB have a responsibility to be 100% positive that what they write or picture is 100% right. 

Jesus' words at Matthew 5 v 48   He was talking to those that would become of the Anointed. 

⁴⁸  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Are you going to argue with Jesus here ? 

[Space Merchant]

@Outta Here There's this also

I had more from my older posts elsewhere, but I'd have to look for them.

Also what of hit heel bone also? This also gives people some food for thought in research.

This is The heel bone and nail from the Ossuary (chest box) of Yehohanan (Jehohanan in English), a man put to death by means of crucifixion in the 1st century.

[JW Insider]

14 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And why would Jesus give inaccurate knowledge anyway ? 

Jesus gave accurate knowledge about the more important things. He gave that knowledge to the apostles and had it written down so that we would have the same access to the more important things through the Scriptures. Having accurate knowledge about a lot of other things is nice, but it wasn't what Jesus had in mind. The very fact that there are teachings of higher priority than others was already shown in this verse from John quoted earlier. Also, the point is made in more detail in Hebrews:

• (Hebrews 5:12-6:3) . . .For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong. 6 Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God indeed permits.

I take it that we have most of the more important things in order. These additional details are just "nice-to-haves." And I see a lot of progress, not enough yet, but still a lot of progress on removing the less important things that we have admitted to getting wrong.

[JOHN BUTLER]

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus gave accurate knowledge about the more important things. He gave that knowledge to the apostles and had it written down so that we would have the same access to the more important things through the Scriptures. Having accurate knowledge about a lot of other things is nice, but it wasn't what Jesus had in mind. The very fact that there are teachings of higher priority than others was already shown in this verse from John quoted earlier. Also, the point is made in more detail in Hebrews:

• (Hebrews 5:12-6:3) . . .For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong. 6 Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God indeed permits.

I take it that we have most of the more important things in order. These additional details are just "nice-to-haves." And I see a lot of progress, not enough yet, but still a lot of progress on removing the less important things that we have admitted to getting wrong.

This is the Anointed man Paul writing to the Hebrew congregation, not writing to the 12 Apostles. 

Now, Quote : "I take it that we have most of the more important things in order." ........  But how would you know ?

This is what I'm saying, how can anything the GB says be trusted........... Luke 16 v 10 says, 

 The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much.

So as the GB are unrighteous in what is least, then it follows ( as this scripture says) they are unrighteous in much. 

They are only making progress in blinding more people with rubbish. (Replace 'rubbish' with stronger word if you wish)

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Baruq JW said:

I can not speak for the English language as it is not my mother tongue, but in both French and Italian, no one would use the word hand to talk about the wrists. The hand is one thing, the wrist is another.

In Croatian, word "ruka" (as equivalent (i think) to English word arm), arm is upper limb in man with a shoulder joint connected to the body. It consists of the upper arm, forearm and hand. The upper arm and the forearm together form the elbow joint. And the forearm with the fist forms hand wrist.

When in Croatian we said "ruka" , that can mean all limb (arm) and  also one particular part,  hand (palm, fingers, and thumb=fist). When you shake in greetings you practically moves all limb (arm) but one part making this main meaning, your hand (again "ruka" in Croatian).

Take your hands in the air. (Digni ruke u zrak.)

The friends stretched out their hands/arms (they were giving hands to each other) and then they were shaking hands. (Prijatelji su ispružili ruke jedan drugome i onda su se rukovali.

[Ann O'Maly]

Hi folks. Just breezing through.  I've not dropped off the end of the earth - I'm just *really* busy. Got a notification on my email saying the Librarian wanted to know if Leolaia's excellent article "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Cross" was still available. The previous link is now dead, apparently.

Try here: http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/jwcross.pdf 

Glad to see these discussions are still going. Hi and bye

[Space Merchant]

@Ann O'Maly Thanks. This discussion though is all over the place even at the CSE.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In Croatian, word "ruka" (as equivalent (i think) to English word arm), arm is upper limb in man with a shoulder joint connected to the body. It consists of the upper arm, forearm and hand. The upper arm and the forearm together form the elbow joint. And the forearm with the fist forms hand wrist.

When in Croatian we said "ruka" , that can mean all limb (arm) and  also one particular part,  hand (palm, fingers, and thumb=fist). When you shake in greetings you practically moves all limb (arm) but one part making this main meaning, your hand (again "ruka" in Croatian). 

That is what I was trying to explain to you in an earlier post @JOHN BUTLER, so similarly in Greek, the word hand can include the wrist.

[JOHN BUTLER]

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

That is what I was trying to explain to you in an earlier post @JOHN BUTLER, so similarly in Greek, the word hand can include the wrist.

I think we've been over this point already.  So the GB could have used the word wrist in the NWT if they were sure that it was the wrist not the hands. But no, they used 'hands' plural and nails plural.     You are still a mile away from the truth of it all. They still contradicted themselves. 

YOUR GB ARE NOT THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS, AND THEY KEEP MAKING IT SO SO SO CLEAR. 

Nearly 10 pm here in Devon England. Goodnight to you all. 

[Anna]

8 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think we've been over this point already.  So the GB could have used the word wrist in the NWT if they were sure that it was the wrist not the hands. But no, they used 'hands' plural and nails plural.     You are still a mile away from the truth of it all. They still contradicted themselves. 

YOUR GB ARE NOT THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS, AND THEY KEEP MAKING IT SO SO SO CLEAR. 

Nearly 10 pm here in Devon England. Goodnight to you all. 

No John, lol. The Greek word is HAND, so to translate it correctly, one must say hand in English also. But yes, you are right, the picture is a contradiction, unless of course you include the wrist when you say hand

Good night!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So what does it matter if more evidence might come to light that indicates that the "stauros" was actually a two-beamed cross as depicted in traditional pictures?

I agree with this.... we have some VERY REAL problems concerning witch hunts, power struggles and retribution, obscene paranoias and complete lack of Justice and Mercy .... outside of several million words on the subject that never seem to apply to real world situations.

I do know the real answer, which is actually found in studying the Cult of Mithras, the sect of the worship of "Sol Invictus", the invincible sun, and have read about 11 pounds of books to discover what is and is not the case ... which if I felt like writing seven pages of text, I could prove, but:

In the immortal words of Rhett Butler .....

"Frankly Scarlet ... I don't give a damn!"