Jump to content

Space Merchant

Watch your children. (JW Fork)

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Space Merchant -
Space Merchant -
62
1433

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The "two witness" rule that the watchtower forces upon victims of child abuse in its' organisation is tantamount to turning a blind eye.

As if an abuser is going to abuse kids in front of 2 or witnesses?!

 

It was debunked here as to what that rule actually is.

 

To quote myself:

Quote

The article goes on to say, it directed NBC News to its "scripturally based position on child protection," a two-page document on its website that intersperses Biblical references with denouncements of child abuse and outlines how the congregation aims to protect its children, and it says the following: "When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason," says one bullet point in the document.

And

Quote

Now, they've mentioned the whole Two Witness Ruling the faith group has and according to NBC they stated the following: one that requires two witnesses to a crime to prove guilt, a tenet that's in keeping with the Witnesses' strict, often literal interpretation of the Bible.

There is more to it and not much is known when people do not do the research.

We already know Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist, meaning they take the Bible seriously, for Restorationism, also described as Christian primitivism, is the belief that Christianity has been or should be restored along the lines of what is known about the apostolic early church, which restorationists see as the search for a more pure and more ancient form of the religion. Fundamentally, "this vision seeks to correct faults or deficiencies (in the church) by appealing to the primitive church as a normative model." according to The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).

As for their rule, to them, their policy of  states: "When any one of Jehovah's Witnesses is accused of an act of child abuse, the local congregation elders are expected to investigate. Two elders meet separately with the accused and the accuser to see what each says on the matter. For this is based in Deuteronomy 19:15 and reaffirmed in Matthew 18:15-17.

From this alone, it should be noted that this two witness ruling has nothing to do with whether the alleged abuse is reported to the authorities, despite what some people even NBC is led to believe, for we have to thank the ARC to better clarify this rule the WT has. For even though they have this policy and or ruling, even in their books and publications  never state that abuse or crime should not be reported unless there are two witnesses to the crime, case and point.

The two witness rule as applied by Jehovah's Witnesses and their church is only applied to determine if a judicial committee should be formed to handle any form/type of sin and or wrongdoing within the JW church itself, hence internally criminally, for JWs are not Law Enforcement. WT pastors also send letters to the elders and stewards of their church to show that anyone is free to report child abuse to the authorities at any time without sanctions from the church, even encouraging such reporting.

But again, people who do not do the research themselves will constantly say that this is bad policy since child molesters usually do not attack their target with others around, such also are lead to believe that and or even profess that this ruling protects the abuser and not the abused. Granted JWs take the Bible both seriously and literally, such ruling stems from the Bible itself, regarding them, for they, and or the bible, according to how this ruling is, repeatedly speaks of the need for two witnesses to establish any matter, as seen in a few verses for example: Matthew 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1,  and 1 Timothy 5:19.

And because of this like this, people tend to throw things out the window, even calling these Bible  and passages like these obscure and not applicable in these modern times - for they forget that Jehovah's Witnesses, are Restorationist, for Restorationist do everything in their power to separate themselves from mainstream Christendom and align themselves with the how everything was done in the early church, thus taking scripture literally, therefore they, the Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that it is best for them to follow the words of the son of God and the inspired apostle Paul rather than the opinions of others, hence their strong stance.

So the fact of the matter is, many people, even NBC, do not realize just what the two witness ruling entails without making the research. Others may know but they don't want you to know and just so they try to hide just who or what can serve as two witnesses, in this sense.

With all these facts, it is unscriptural to apply excommunication an individual at the mouth of one witness, in terms of ruling, for God's word should take precedent over the thinking of imperfect ones. Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, applying the two witness ruling, on their part, is reasonable and logical, and clearly not to otherwise deny the Bible itself.

The situation is a bit different regarding a single witness, but a bit of research one can actually understand it.

Also it should be noted that even such ruling is even practiced by those of law if I am not mistaken.

And I doubt you have a care for children yourself. As it shows here by your comment for you have nothing good to say in regard to teaching children. The children I know, the children I teach, they've been talked about regarding mental illness, suicide, about sex, about a list of other things. In the same sense we teach them about strangers, we teach them about these things so they can look out for themselves and for others. Wisdom is key. With it it allows said child and or children to become stronger in this sense, and it helps for us to reach to better solutions to increase prevention of stuff such as child abuse and a list of others.

Do yourself a favor, how about you educate the people on how to prevent, for clearly you do not have the experience that I have granted by your response.

 

Now, let's put you to the test, 1 John 4:1, this is a situation with one teenager I helped, who has not relapsed for about a year now.

Since the age of 8, this child was thrown into the world of pornography and masturbation and evidently it pushed him to eventually be addicted to it, and later on in life began to see and think of sex in a bad way. This caused him to think badly and have inappropriate thoughts of every girl he sees, he even states every woman he sees. He cannot escape this for even images and ads, commercial show such things that triggers him to go into sexual immorality in an instant. After he relapsed from his addiction he feels guilt and he says whenever he did this, his mind was blank, he also stated that sometimes he tries to think of the good things he did, friends and family to prevent him from doing what he is doing, but as stated, his mind goes blank. This person is now 19 years of age, and with what I did and what his family did helped him out, for in my case, my own brother, God fearing like me, had issues with pornography in the past, and I lost a friend to suicide because of pornography when people began spreading her image and face all over the internet. I will not tell you what was done to help the teen, but I ask you, if you really cared about children then what would you have done?

What would have been the approach on your part when dealing with someone who is in too deep in this addiction that seems to be one of the greatest folly of man?

That being said, if you have nothing really to contribute in terms of teaching and helping children then keep silent.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

As if an abuser is going to abuse kids in front of 2 or witnesses?!

The abused child is one of the witnesses to the crime. If the abuser admits his crime, then the abuser becomes the second witness to the crime.

(This only means that the congregation will not automatically take disciplinary action against the accused. It should never be used to avoid or discourage reporting the accusation to authorities.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It should never be used to avoid or discourage reporting the accusation to authorities.)

No, and I have been witness to two elders, unprovoked, tell me irrespective of each other that if there is ever a case of reported child abuse, the victim and/or parents are specifically told that regardless whether there is proof or not,  if they want to contact the police it is their absolute right to do so and there will be no repercussions from the elders (which actually is a sad thing to have to say..... as if  contacting the police would ever warrant repercussions....but, as we know, historically this was sometimes the case. However, this was never the organizations policy as far as I know, but it was more a personal decision by some elders).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Anna The guardian and or parents should always contact and or commune with the police. All are instructed to do such, for even those who educate in child abuse profess this. But this may become more common as such, for there was something I debated and discussed with others that is slowly becoming a reality. Give it a few years and you will see the line between child and adult will become smaller and open doors that should not be opened.

But at the end of the day, adults should be educated on this matter, it helps, a lot. If educating helps the children, it will greatly help the adults so should any abuse happens, it better helps out those in question. The truth of the matter also is that all this does is reduce the chances and helps prevention, for as I told the man who cannot see with his eyes nor read with his lips, that child abuse cannot be 100% stopped, which is the same situation, and argument, I had with those regarding world powers.

Aside from that, internal investigations will always be done, even corporate business like ones do it all the time, for instance, there is one of the biggest data centers, bank, in the US right now, for in one of it's buildings someone was not only spouting racist banter, built he was willing to kill several people using box cutter until stopped by security. The internal investigation was done by the owner of said building and a small group of people with no employee knowing what went down in the facility itself besides a small number of techs, 1-3 people, security guards and the boss of the building. Another example of internal investigation regarding a teacher and student in a trade school, as is already known, sexual immortality when Hurricane Sandy hit the Tri-State area.

But yes, it is no surprise to anyone that churches and faith communities are capable of internal investigations in which opponents of said faith and others attack such ones for it. What some do not realize, as this was pointed out by Solider of God, a friend of mine, a while back, that people who often attack others about child abuse in their community day in and day out are usually the ones who allow pedophiles to go to said communities to target children. And as we have now, the serialization of children, the teachings of such vile sin in the schools, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Give it a few years and you will see the line between child and adult will become smaller and open doors that should not be opened

You are probably right there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are probably right there

In a way some sparks have already flicker. I do not know if you are aware of this but some weeks ago, there was a child performing and dancing at a gay bar, with people throwing money at him, as pointed out by others, even by me in the past, this only entices pedophiles more to target such ones, as for the child in question, it puts him in a vulnerable state. Aside from this children are being sexualized. The irony of this, the same people who support this shoot down those who speak against it, but when we defend a 14 year old girl who also speaks truth about what is going out, we are spoken of as the enemies. They are starting them young too in the schools.

That being said, the strongest ones who say child abuse this or that in either of the left or the right are usually the ones supporting this nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

In a way some sparks have already flicker. I do not know if you are aware of this but some weeks ago, there was a child performing and dancing at a gay bar, with people throwing money at him, as pointed out by others, even by me in the past, this only entices pedophiles more to target such ones, as for the child in question, it puts him in a vulnerable state. Aside from this children are being sexualized. The irony of this, the same people who support this shoot down those who speak against it, but when we defend a 14 year old girl who also speaks truth about what is going out, we are spoken of as the enemies. They are starting them young too in the schools.

That being said, the strongest ones who say child abuse this or that in either of the left or the right are usually the ones supporting this nonsense.

I have heard it said that soon pedophilia will be classed as just another sexual orientation and that pedophiles will feel discriminated against and will insist on their "rights".

Just to lighten things up a bit, are you the "man on the rocks" ?  😄: Cool song actually

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2019 at 11:10 PM, Anna said:

I have heard it said that soon pedophilia will be classed as just another sexual orientation and that pedophiles will feel discriminated against and will insist on their "rights".

It's already in motion, slowly but surely. I am still in an ongoing debate with someone concerning age of consent. I make it vital to speak against slander, to teach the good gospel, and among other things, to educate people even young ones regarding legitimate dangers to them. Such has spread to apps and media such as YouTube whereas they cannot better equip themselves to combat it sadly.

On 6/29/2019 at 11:10 PM, Anna said:

Just to lighten things up a bit, are you the "man on the rocks" ?  😄: Cool song actually

Thank you, for at least today music is good, for in my case, usually every other day something pops up, and during those days I tend to aid said community, for there was unfortunate news just some days ago leaving us, even me with questions that have no answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      EDMONTON — An Alberta family allegedly kidnapped by a group of naked neighbours, who may have unknowingly drank some hallucinogenic tea, say it was a frightening experience.
      And the family members say until they learn more facts about what happened, they don't know how to feel about the ordeal.
      "We just don't have enough information," said one family member, who asked not to be named. "We have no answers as to whether anything was purposely taken or not purposely taken."
      The family members were reluctant to share their experience because of the ongoing court case, but they told The Canadian Press they know the accused as neighbours. They are all members of the same Jehovah's Witnesses church.
      When one of the female accused showed up at the family's home in Leduc County south of Edmonton on Monday morning, clothed and acting frantic, they thought there must be an emergency.
      But the family said with her were four other people who were naked and the family was forced outside and into a BMW. The man was allegedly put in the trunk and his daughter and her baby in the car with the others.
      While the car was being driven, the family said the man managed to jump out of the trunk. As the car slowed, the woman and her baby then managed to get away.
      The man, woman and child were then picked up by a passerby in his truck, but the truck was allegedly rammed by the car.
      RCMP have said that when they arrived at the scene of the crash, they took five people into custody. Three adults, a man and two women, are facing charges of kidnapping, resisting arrest and mischief and are to next appear in court Nov. 30.
      Two teenage girls also in the car were released without charges.
      No one was injured.
      The father of the girls, ages 13 and 15, has said his daughters and their mother were having breakfast Monday morning with another couple when they decided to have some tea recently brought back from a trip overseas. The father said the tea was from India, but the family that was allegedly kidnapped said one of the accused had travelled earlier in the year to Thailand and South Korea.
      "It's absolutely crazy," said the father, who cannot be named due to a court publication ban protecting the identity of youths involved in the case.
      "It's a scary thought thinking, 'Oh, let's try this tea that we purchased.' And then all sit down thinking they're just going to have a nice morning and end up in that circumstance."
      He said the girls don't remember what happened.
      The Mounties have not said if they're investigating whether a hallucinogenic tea motivated the alleged crime but have said drugs and/or alcohol may have played a role.
      Chris Purdy, The Canadian Press
      http://www.cfjctoday.com/article/596725/alberta-family-taken-naked-kidnapping-case-were-frightened-want-answers
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      A Reedsport woman was arrested after allegedly trying to kidnap a 6-year-old and resisting arrest in a Jehovah’s Witnesses Kingdom Hall earlier this month.
      Denise Estrella Valdez Cardenas, 26, was charged with assaulting a public safety officer, resisting arrest, fourth-degree assault, harassment, third-degree criminal mischief, second-degree disorderly conduct and two counts of coercion.
      Read more: https://www.nrtoday.com/news/reedsport-woman-tries-to-kidnap-girl-resists-arrest-at-jehovah/article_efb4f445-e19c-5fb0-9f67-cc6e345ec6f8.html
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Footage purportedly showing Boko Haram’s new leader has emerged online, displaying a masked gunman demanding that Nigeria’s government release their fighters in exchange for the abducted Chibok schoolgirls.
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      An Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) member with a P600,000 reward for his capture was arrested in Zamboanga City Thursday.
      Arrested was Bads Adjam, with aliases “Pa Malod” and “Abu Jihad,” who is wanted for his involvement in the kidnapping of six Jehovah’s Witnesses members in Patikul, Sulu in 2002 and 21 foreign and local tourists in Sipadan, Malaysia, in 2000.
      Police Senior Supt. Billy Tamayo, the chief of Criminal Investigation and Detection Group-National Capital Region (CIDG-NCR), identified the arrested suspect.
      In his report to Police Chief Supt. Roel B. Obusan, acting director of the CIDG, Tamayo said operatives composed of the NCR-CIDG based in Region 9 and Naval Intelligence Security Group-Western Mindanao, apprehended the suspect at Sta. Maria, Zamboanga City, on Thursday.

      Zamboanga City map (Photo courtesy of Google Maps)
      Obusan said the arrest was made possible by virtue of a warrant of arrest with Criminal Case No. 815-3 for six counts of Kidnapping and Serious Illegal Detention with Ransom issued by the Regional Trial Court (RTC) 9th Judicial Region, Branch 4, in Parang, Sulu.
      Tamayo said that aside from the kidnapping of six Jehovah’s Witnesses, the suspect was also included in Criminal Case Numbers 122473H-122493H for kidnapping and Serious Illegal Detention (21 counts) issued by the Pasig City Regional Trial Court Branch 262 for the kidnapping of 10 Malaysians, nine Europeans and two Filipino resort workers in Sipadan Island, Malaysia, in 2000.
      Tamayo added that the suspect has a monetary reward of P600,000 as per Department of National Defense (DND) and Department of the Interior and Local Government (DILG) joint order on reward number 15-2012 dated November 2012.
      The suspect is presently detained at the CIDG-NCR lock-up cell for documentation and proper disposition prior to his turn over to the court concerned.

      http://www.mb.com.ph/asg-man-involved-in-kidnapping-tourists-jehovahs-members-arrested/
  • Forum Statistics

    62,019
    Total Topics
    116,552
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,533
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Sunny3481
    Newest Member
    Sunny3481
    Joined




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.